Allow Valentines/Christmas dragons to be either gender

[Alrexwolf]

As far as I am aware - and this came up last Valentine's Day - TJ's contract with artists is only for the sprites in question. Only the artwork.

 

It has nothing to do with the concept or anything of the sort. The concept remains the original creator's. And if the original creator does not want the breed to be dimorphic, then they have every right. I would fully support a creator on anything they wanted to do with their concept, even pulling the sprites from the website, although I don't think artists can do that these days.

 

Our artists give us everything. Let them preserve their control over their own concepts.

 

EDIT: Also, to people saying having one-gender only is reserved for lower-level organisms... Whiptail Lizards would like to have a word with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_whiptail

As would every single organism listed under this list, including the komodo dragon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Natural_occurrence

 

It's not unheard of in reptiles... which dragons are, so...

Edited November 4, 2017 by Alrexwolf

[Marrionetta]

31 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

As far as I am aware - and this came up last Valentine's Day - TJ's contract with artists is only for the sprites in question. Only the artwork.

 

It has nothing to do with the concept or anything of the sort. The concept remains the original creator's. And if the original creator does not want the breed to be dimorphic, then they have every right. I would fully support a creator on anything they wanted to do with their concept, even pulling the sprites from the website, although I don't think artists can do that these days.

 

Our artists give us everything. Let them preserve their control over their own concepts.

 

EDIT: Also, to people saying having one-gender only is reserved for lower-level organisms... Whiptail Lizards would like to have a word with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_whiptail

As would every single organism listed under this list, including the komodo dragon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Natural_occurrence

 

It's not unheard of in reptiles... which dragons are, so...

Preaaaach. Thank you Alrex.

 

Some holiday dragons have extant dimorphs created after the fact but we have no plans for implementation. That's going to be highly variant from artist to artist, and even if there was a desire for adding holiday dimorphs by the artist it couldn't be done without administrator coordination and agreement. I don't find the idea offensive, but nobody is making dimorphic gender counterpart sprites for my holiday breeds without my involvement and consent. 

[LadyLyzar]

49 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

I could design a super special gun that doesn't fire bullets but instead fires whipped cream, it's special but ultimately useless in both the battlefield and the kitchen.

Slightly OT but that sounds like the most fun and delicious paintball gun ever...   Someone invent this.

 

That's just my speculation though on why the one gender thing came to be.  Also, when Hollies were new, the only female dragons on the site were Bright Pinks and Purples.  Bred dragons were actually kind of unusual - when I started playing, I hardly ever found a bred dragon anywhere.

 

There is no rule saying that Holiday dragons must be one gender.  In fact, I was asked prior to the release of one of mine if I wanted them to be gender specific.  However, I designed them to be so, because it made sense for the breed.  It would not make sense for either breed to be dimorphic based on their design.

[Confused Cat]

Personally, I'd be rather annoyed if a breed of which I can only have 2 CBs could be both genders. (Only having one enraged and one pacified Aegis is difficult enough already...)

 

Anyway changes to previously released breeds should always be the artists' decision. No matter why they decided to make their breed male or female, they - most likely - designed the sprites after making that decision, so the dragons we have were designed to be that exact gender.

 

If some artists (and TJ) decided to make their existing holiday dragons both genders, then for once I wouldn't mind if dimorphism was added to an existing breed. E.g. if we got a female version of the Yulebuck that looks different from the male, it wouldn't affect any existing lineages or lineage plans, so apart from the 2 CB limit I don't think it would be a problem.

[Guillotine]

Haven't we had this thread already...?

 

In any case, I would hate to have a two-CB limit on a breed with two genders; the limit's harsh enough even without it (see: Aegis). And, of course, the spriters ultimately would have to make the dragons with that in mind. Which they obviously didn't.

[Fuzzbucket]

7 hours ago, LadyLyzar said:

There is no rule saying that Holiday dragons must be one gender.  In fact, I was asked prior to the release of one of mine if I wanted them to be gender specific.  However, I designed them to be so, because it made sense for the breed.  It would not make sense for either breed to be dimorphic based on their design.

 

I had no idea spriters had the choice - that says it ALL. They weren't just limited by tradition - they are at times limited by spriter choice. That makes this one an absolute no for me - especially with the fascinating stuff about reptile parthenogenesis. Maybe what is needed is their ability to reproduce that way

[Starscream]

I'd only support opposite genders for dragons (pending spriters approval and if it fits the breed) Only if the limits were raised to 4.

I would support rerelease of Holiday dragons CB's.

 

IF its a raise limits or CB re-release. I would pick the re-release.

 

20 hours ago, VixenDra said:

As for the artists who object, Bribe them with more CB SAs ;A: (please, just let your mind change somehow - FOR THE GREATER GOOD of DC!)

 

I would never support harassing of Artists(or anyone) in effort to get them to buckle to the whims of the userbase and have two genders for their holiday dragons, if it isn't intended. This has no place in DC and actually goes against the terms of service as I have highlighted below. 

" All interactions with other users must be willful. " Site terms of service.

 

14 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

Really? every singe artist choose to have their holiday dragon be one gender NOT out of tradition but because they wanted them to out of their own hearts desire?

 

And what if it actually is? The tradition as it seems is an alternate gender each year. What if the artists that submit choose to keep this "tradition" going because its fun to them. The design and create the dragons for this site because its fun for them. If I were to create a sprite for this site, and I have considered it, it would cease to be fun if people demanded/dictated that my dragon had to be both genders - just to please their scroll requirements.

 

Added: because apparently ladyLyzar confirms this.

9 hours ago, LadyLyzar said:

There is no rule saying that Holiday dragons must be one gender.  In fact, I was asked prior to the release of one of mine if I wanted them to be gender specific.  However, I designed them to be so, because it made sense for the breed.  It would not make sense for either breed to be dimorphic based on their design.

 

 

[stagazer_7]

I was never really bothered by Valentines and X-mas dragons having a single gender (with the rare exceptions that I know I need to watch out for), it's always been like this and I accepted it as a part of a game. It doesn't really interfere in lineage making as it's a simple, predictable rule. You know exactly what you're dealing with and simply work with what you're given... in a way it's a relief knowing exactly the gender of dragons you're going to get, without using a BSA... until this topic came up I never ever considered this was something that needed fixing. While I personally wouldn't be bothered by having both genders if TJ (and the spriters) decided it should be so - rising the limit would be a must here of course, because otherwise we'd have to decide between releasing one of our beloved original holidays and one of the new gender, which... just wouldn't be cool to me. I would be also quite worried if spriters felt that with an additional gender and a possible new sprite to represent it they'd need to update the existing one (and I'm sure that's a scenario that could come true) - if that happened, my lineages that I worked hard on for years simply wouldn't be the same anymore. So if this idea was ever implemented, a lot should be taken into account, as this has a huge potential to cause plenty of problems.

 

Basically, I can only see this working if:

- TJ decides to add a 2nd gender (duh :P) + it would be nice if the spriters agreed to this as well

- raise the limits (minimally 4)

- keep the original sprites the same + if deciding for dimorphism, add an additional sprite without changing the original's pose

[Wookieinmashoo]

On 11/3/2017 at 2:58 PM, blockEdragon said:

Really? every singe artist choose to have their holiday dragon be one gender NOT out of tradition but because they wanted them to out of their own hearts desire?

 

Any one artist could have changed that "tradition". We have even had animated egg sprites, something we have never had before. So yes, the artists wanted their dragons to be single gender and the artists that didn't want it to be so (Mistletoe) didn't make them that way. They can change them themselves if they want.

 

So I don't care if an artist wants to make their dragon two genders, but I don't want current breeds to be forced into that motif.

[Fuzzbucket]

48 minutes ago, Wookieinmashoo said:

Any one artist could have changed that "tradition". We have even had animated egg sprites, something we have never had before. So yes, the artists wanted their dragons to be single gender and the artists that didn't want it to be so (Mistletoe) didn't make them that way. They can change them themselves if they want.

 

So I don't care if an artist wants to make their dragon two genders, but I don't want current breeds to be forced into that motif.

 

 

My view precisely. And especially not adding dimorphism to older breeds - that wrecks carefully designed lineages.

[olympe]

Yeah, everyone could have changed that tradition. But, in the end, it's TJ who chooses the concepts. And there's a well-known pattern that you'd better adhere to if you want your concept to be chosen.

Winter holiday:

2007 - male (later both genders) - holly

2008 - male - yulebuck

2009 - female - snow angel

2010 - female - ribbon dancer

2011 - male - winter magi

2012 - male - wrapping wing

2013 - female - solstice

2014 - female (later both genders) - mistletoe

2015 - male - aegis

2016 - male - snow

 

Now, if you were an artist and wanted to make a winter holiday concept to be released 2017 - would you honestly choose to make your concept male? Or would you rather create something female so you have a better chance of getting your concept into the cave?

 

Same goes for Valentine:

2009 - female - original valentine dragons

2010 - male - sweetlings

2011 - female - rosebud

2012 - male - heartseeker

2013 - female - arsani

2014 - male - radiant angel

2015 - female - heartstealing

2016 - male - mutamore

2017 - female - soulstone

 

Now, who's going to submit a female concept for Val 2018?

[annageckos]

On 11/3/2017 at 9:42 AM, VixenDra said:

BIGGEST SUPPORT EVER!

 

If I had to choose between limits raised and both genders I'd still prefer BOTH GENDERS for ALL dem freaky dragons!  (It's just completly unrealsitic for a breed to survive from being just male-only. Not justifyable. And having only female-only breeds would be beyond inconsistent and strange in a bad way, not to mention incredibly unrealistic - jsut because 1 or 2 lower-developed organisms on Earth can survive like this, doesn't mean it's normal and good - this trait is iincredibly rare irl for a reason - and here we get sth like this twice every single year).

Not to mention for Valentines it makes way more sense for both genders to exist... they are abotu the holiday for COUPLES, ad well, we don't have a way to make homosexual parents so... they're contradicting themselves by bing against the spirit of their respective holiday.

 

It woudl add more consistency to the game, more lineage possibilities, more goals to be doable, etc.!

 

As for the artists who object, Bribe them with more CB SAs ;A: (please, just let your mind change somehow - FOR THE GREATER GOOD of DC!)

There are species of lizard that are female only. And one site says there are 70 species of vertebrates that reproduce asexually. Granted that is a very small percentage of living creatures on earth. But honestly that doesn't really matter. This game is not on earth and not everything is going to match earths biology. I like the way holidays work. I wouldn't be against changing it but I see no reason to do so. So I'd vote to leave it as it is.

[HeatherMarie]

@olympe Did you see what LadyLyzar posted?

 

On 11/3/2017 at 6:38 PM, LadyLyzar said:

There is no rule saying that Holiday dragons must be one gender.  In fact, I was asked prior to the release of one of mine if I wanted them to be gender specific.  However, I designed them to be so, because it made sense for the breed.  It would not make sense for either breed to be dimorphic based on their design.

 

That seems to show that TJ won't necessarily toss out a concept just because it doesn't fit the "pattern", and in fact shows that a one-gender breed was *chosen* to be that way, not forced to be that way because of some sort of pattern. It seems that that pattern is not set in stone, if TJ was open to it being either gender.

 

I wouldn't mind future holidays being either gender, wouldn't mind it at all. But I do not think we should force a change onto already-established breeds that were designed with a specific gender in mind just because some people think it might be better for "game play" or whatever.

[Pixxelation]

3 hours ago, olympe said:

Yeah, everyone could have changed that tradition. But, in the end, it's TJ who chooses the concepts. And there's a well-known pattern that you'd better adhere to if you want your concept to be chosen.

Winter holiday:

2007 - male (later both genders) - holly

2008 - male - yulebuck

2009 - female - snow angel

2010 - female - ribbon dancer

2011 - male - winter magi

2012 - male - wrapping wing

2013 - female - solstice

2014 - female (later both genders) - mistletoe

2015 - male - aegis

2016 - male - snow

 

Now, if you were an artist and wanted to make a winter holiday concept to be released 2017 - would you honestly choose to make your concept male? Or would you rather create something female so you have a better chance of getting your concept into the cave?

 

Same goes for Valentine:

2009 - female - original valentine dragons

2010 - male - sweetlings

2011 - female - rosebud

2012 - male - heartseeker

2013 - female - arsani

2014 - male - radiant angel

2015 - female - heartstealing

2016 - male - mutamore

2017 - female - soulstone

 

Now, who's going to submit a female concept for Val 2018?

I actually forgot to put a gender in the Mistletoe PM. TJ defaulted to coding them as female, which was the intent for the CBs, but he offered Tiki and I the choice of what we wanted them to be. Theoretically, we could've broken the pattern. It's not concrete and kinda just happened.

[cyradis4]

20 hours ago, olympe said:

Yeah, everyone could have changed that tradition. But, in the end, it's TJ who chooses the concepts. And there's a well-known pattern that you'd better adhere to if you want your concept to be chosen.

Winter holiday:

2007 - male (later both genders) - holly

2008 - male - yulebuck

2009 - female - snow angel

2010 - female - ribbon dancer

2011 - male - winter magi

2012 - male - wrapping wing

2013 - female - solstice

2014 - female (later both genders) - mistletoe

2015 - male - aegis

2016 - male - snow

 

Now, if you were an artist and wanted to make a winter holiday concept to be released 2017 - would you honestly choose to make your concept male? Or would you rather create something female so you have a better chance of getting your concept into the cave?

 

Same goes for Valentine:

2009 - female - original valentine dragons

2010 - male - sweetlings

2011 - female - rosebud

2012 - male - heartseeker

2013 - female - arsani

2014 - male - radiant angel

2015 - female - heartstealing

2016 - male - mutamore

2017 - female - soulstone

 

Now, who's going to submit a female concept for Val 2018?

 

I think the pattern is at this point a self-fulfulling prophesy: people see the pattern, assume that that's what you need to get released... and submit concepts that fit said pattern. I know I have two Valentine Concepts with artwork, and I'm debating holding off on submitting the female one a year.... to continue the pattern. 

 

Having said all that, as a player.... I much prefer single gender on the limited Holidays because: 

1. You only get 2

2. Christmas is hectic enough as it is, I like not having to worry about gendering for most sprites. Same for Valentines. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[Terces]

28 minutes ago, cyradis4 said:

Having said all that, as a player.... I much prefer single gender on the limited Holidays because: 

1. You only get 2

2. Christmas is hectic enough as it is, I like not having to worry about gendering for most sprites. Same for Valentines.

 

Agreed. I really appreciate that that I don't need to worry about unfortunate misgenders for Valentines and most Christmas dragons, whether because of an influence fail or forgetting to use influence or egg wall is under 3 days and can't be influenced situation. I've had to freeze and release some much wanted Halloween checkers because they were too low timed to influence as an egg and gendered wrong, completely breaking the lineage pattern. It's a huge plus to me that Valentines are free of that and so are the majority of Xmas eggs. Of course the CB limitations are also an issue but it's been brought up by many users already.

 

If the CB limits were raised + influence had no time limit + sprite/concept artists liked the idea, I could support the suggestion. Those are some pretty big hurdles however.

[Lady Artemis]

I like the single-gender thing. I think it works well.

[VixenDra]

If they are single-genders and can't be changed all into both genders, then at least the regularly alternating patterns should stay preserved and at least to the point the number of female- or male-only of the given holiday type are being evened-out. If the tradition is to be broken and gone, then it should be gone after the given holiday type has equal numbers of female-only and male-only breeds and announced. Exceptions don't work well for those games.

 

 

and contrary to some ppl's belief it was never my intend nor plan to go and harass any spriters:/

The bribing of spriters part especially, it was a move a site OWNER and STAFF, if anyone, should do, not a regular user like me.

Edited November 7, 2017 by VixenDra

[Empererpenguin]

My feeling on this is that CBs should remain one gender only but bred christmas/valentine dragons being both genders would be cool.

[olympe]

How about a compromise? CB in the first year of release will be one gender, but - if the conceptors agree to this for their respective concepts - the dragon can be either gender from year 2 on, including CBs from the holiday biome?

[olympe]

Sorry, accidental double-post due to extreme lag.   @mods: feel free to delete. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by olympe

[HeatherMarie]

I would grudgingly accept one-gender CBs and both-gender after the initial release, but we have already had multiple spriters/conceptors in this thread saying they don't want their dragon to be either gender, that's not how the dragon was intended, etc. Of course I can't speak for them, but I don't see why they'd suddenly change their minds about that just because the initial release would be what was intended.

 

I honestly don't see a problem with one-gender releases, and while I'm not *against* a change to that, I'd rather it not happen if any spriters/conceptors are against it.

[elderberrysyrup]

I would be ok with one-gender releases, and I'm not unopposed to re-releases. However, I am strongly opposed to raising the limits. The original intention of the 2 eggs is to assure everyone will be able to have a shot at them. Christmas and Valentine's is supposed to be for generosity and giving. Halloween is a completely different animal- hunting and hoarding. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by soullesshuman

[bluedog]

1 hour ago, soullesshuman said:

I would be ok with one-gender releases, and I'm not unopposed to re-releases. However, I am strongly opposed to raising the limits. The original intention of the 2 eggs is to assure everyone will be able to have a shot at them. Christmas and Valentine's is supposed to be for generosity and giving. Halloween is a completely different animal- hunting and hoarding. 

 

This makes good sense to me. 

[Ruby Eyes]

While I'm a tad sad that some breeding combos are currently not possible, I prefer Valentine and Holiday dragons to be single-gender. Makes breeding plans easier.