Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) If images are deemed essential, can we at least not have something more in keeping ? Someone said arrows, crosses... The chain is, I suppose, less out of place (think dungeons) than the cog. But still.... Cog's are NOT out of place, Fuzz. They were used in ancient windmills, mills, and waterwheels.... Which were in use back in Ancient Greece and Rome. Just to name some places they were used. In fact..... If 4th century BCE isn't considered "ancient".... then you have a strange definition of ancient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear Gears are NOT a modern invention. They have been around, quite literally, since well before the dawn of the modern calendar. People have been using gears in CLOCKS since 700 ish AD, in fact! There's a 14th century clock that still works. And that ancient Greek devise for picking out astronomical phenomena is frankly amazing (though sadly non-functional). So yes, in this case, TJ has it right. The cog is very much of this time frame. In fact, it was around long before this time frame. Cheers! C4. Edited March 31, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) No, but it isn't the default, so that's not that relevant. The cog and chain, though, serve no useful purpose except to space things. Other images would do better if there are to be images at all, and would take exactly NO extra coding. I am SURE they used the word clicks way back. Not in the same context, but... Yup - widely used in the 16th century, at the very least. I could get my huge OED out, but I haven't time. The portal 2 theme is the only thing in that post which could be deemed as "not relevant due to being an option", and you seem to have ignored most of the rest of it. As for the cogs part, oh look, there's the point, flying right over your head! Yes, they probably used it in a different context, but that doesn't make this context relevant. I'm fairly sure that circuit has been a word for a long time, probably just as long as click, but that doesn't justify us suddenly including electricity as part of the DC world! As for the whole image thing... Firstly, the cog and the chain are well-known, often-used symbols in web design. The reason they're used is because people know exactly what they stand for without thinking about it; it's like how everyone knows that a magnifying glass means search. As for your claim that it would take "exactly NO extra coding", you seem to be forgetting the coding that needs to be done when you're changing the image, and adjusting the CSS to make sure it appears right. Not to mention the fact that TJ would have to create the new image from scratch? There's hardly a surplus of little celtic crosses on the internet which are free-to-use and exactly the right resolution... You know, since a celtic cross has no real-life link to, well, anything other than the celts. And funnily enough, the celtic cross would be far more out of place than a cog, to be honest.... A cog is a simple invention which could be created by just about anyone. A celtic cross requires the existence of both the Celts and Jesus... You know, I did go through a period where I wasn't TJ's biggest fan, but honestly? After one year of degree-level web design, I have his back on this. I understand a lot of his decisions a lot more now, and I've got his back on the technical side of things. Running a website like this is NOT easy, and people don't understand that. Edited March 31, 2016 by dracocharky Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) And funnily enough, the celtic cross would be far more out of place than a cog, to be honest.... A cog is a simple invention which could be created by just about anyone. A celtic cross requires the existence of both the Celts and Jesus... Yep, Celtic things were deff localized. But gears have been used all over the world for 2,500+ years, to make people's lives easier. Not to put too fine a point on it.... but the gear is as old as the wheel... and just as universal. And wherever you have a gear... you have something that needs work occasionally. And as for Fuzz's comments about how "regular" the gears are.... Gears have to be regular to work right, and using a gear that's been at the bottom of the ocean for the better part of 2,000 years as your example really doesn't help. Here's an excample of an ancient clock that still works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_cathedral_clock ETA: Found another really good one! http://hist.science.online.fr/antikythera/...ine-sundial.htm Yes, the edges of the teeth are a bit worn, but that's to be expected in something that's about 2,000 years old. Even modern gears wear..... Rather fast, actually. But note how regular it is. Also keep in mind: just because something that looks like DC's gear hasn't survived to the modern era.... doesn't mean there wasn't something that looked just like it. All you need is to show that the craftsmen back then could do it... And those sundials prove that. Cheers! C4. Edited March 31, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 Cog's are NOT out of place, Fuzz. They were used in ancient windmills, mills, and waterwheels.... Which were in use back in Ancient Greece and Rome. Just to name some places they were used. In fact..... If 4th century BCE isn't considered "ancient".... then you have a strange definition of ancient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear Gears are NOT a modern invention. They have been around, quite literally, since well before the dawn of the modern calendar. People have been using gears in CLOCKS since 700 ish AD, in fact! There's a 14th century clock that still works. And that ancient Greek devise for picking out astronomical phenomena is frankly amazing (though sadly non-functional). So yes, in this case, TJ has it right. The cog is very much of this time frame. In fact, it was around long before this time frame. Cheers! C4. Yes I KNOW, I have SAID I know but - I posted - was it not in this thread ? that the one as drawn here is a very modern cog. The images are unnecessary, anyway, but even so - that is one modern die cut cog ! And square cut teeth - those came later. The ones you show are point-cut - which would be a LOT better. (seriously !) And @ dracocharky - the portal skin was exactly what I was referring to. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 I think arguing the historicity of cog designs in a fictional universe in general is bordering on off-topic pedantry. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) I think arguing the historicity of cog designs in a fictional universe in general is bordering on off-topic pedantry. Sure it is - - but they are still ugly and unnecessary on the new layout. Edited April 2, 2016 by yosofine Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 Yes I KNOW, I have SAID I know but - I posted - was it not in this thread ? that the one as drawn here is a very modern cog. The images are unnecessary, anyway, but even so - that is one modern die cut cog ! And square cut teeth - those came later. The ones you show are point-cut - which would be a LOT better. (seriously !) And @ dracocharky - the portal skin was exactly what I was referring to. jesus swearkipz how hard is it to understand there is no such thing as a modern cog they're literally all just metal discs with teeth and it's nye on impossible to get any more detail into something so small. (as for the arguing I totally agree, but I see no other way to argue the point that they are not in fact something out of place that should be changed) and yes I know that you were referring to the portal 2 skin, that was literally my point? I was saying that you didn't even address any of my other points? Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Sure it is - - but they are still ugly and unnecessary on the new layout. I can accept that you think they are ugly and unnecessary. I happen to disagree, I like them and find they are a good way to attract the eye to the Actions link. I think they should stay, even if the link moves (which I think it should). I do not accept your assertion that the *only* way to produce them is with a die cut. A mold, for instance, or filed down. Metals such as bronze is both easier to cut and far more widely used back then than iron. As an engineer, I happen to *know*, beyond any doubt, that they could produce this sort of thing back then. Easily? maybe not. Did they? Maybe not. But the technology was there. Therefore, since we could have (if we'd chosen to) make them back then, then Valkmare engineers (who after all, have magic to help) certainly could. And.... Its clipart. There *is* no detail. So how can it be "modern".... when there's nothing there but a black outline? Just because something is around in modern times doesn't mean it isn't ancient. Take the name Alexander, for instance. As modern and common as a name can be.... Yet its been used for literally millennia. ETA: Just because archeologists haven't found proof that something existed doesn't mean it didn't. There is so little that is actually *known* about Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece (not to mention other places!) that its guaranteed we've missed and miss-interpreted a lot. There are huge, gaping holes in the records from that time period. History is written by the Victors, and those who came after. What records we have are often the translation of a translation by Christian monks... Who may or may not have gotten it right. And what few artifacts have survived for 2,000 years. Cheers! C4. Edited April 2, 2016 by yosofine Share this post Link to post
Posted March 31, 2016 If you're going to have everything be in columns like that, do it for ALL of the links on the page. Why the heck are action/links centered under the dragon image? stop that Ultimately i really dislike the new update, but besides the annoying actions/links link being out of place it may have been tolerable. We seem to be going from two clean columns to four columns and two centered links. Not sure how that's meant to be 'cleaner' looking. I do like the text color change, however. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 If you're going to have everything be in columns like that, do it for ALL of the links on the page. Why the heck are action/links centered under the dragon image? stop that Ultimately i really dislike the new update, but besides the annoying actions/links link being out of place it may have been tolerable. We seem to be going from two clean columns to four columns and two centered links. Not sure how that's meant to be 'cleaner' looking. I do like the text color change, however. I like the text colour too, and I agree that two columns felt neater than four. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 I like the colour change. It sets everything apart, which is very nice. The huge gap between some of the things due to spreading it across four columns instead of two makes it extremely clunky. Added with the shift between left, to center, to left again, and it is really visually difficult to follow. It's not just a matter of change. I like change if it works, but this... just does not work. :/ I'm not sure if it is intended to be like it is or if it is a bug. I think it would help if the name was centred as well and if the "view lineage" link was moved into the same column as the other links (last column) so there did not have to be a huge gap between the third column and last. Then the longest thing in the third column would be "mother". It would clean it all up and make it easier to follow instead of being scattered. I don't even mind the new little icon images on their own. Just where everything is positioned overwhelms the dragon image and makes it extremely difficult to find any kind of flow or visually follow it. I shifted some things around to show what I mean (though putting everything to the left would also work well): CHANGED ORIGINAL Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 I think it would help if the name was centred as well and if the "view lineage" link was moved into the same column as the other links (last column) so there did not have to be a huge gap between the third column and last. Then the longest thing in the third column would be "mother". It would clean it all up and make it easier to follow instead of being scattered. I don't even mind the new little icon images on their own. Just where everything is positioned overwhelms the dragon image and makes it extremely difficult to find any kind of flow or visually follow it. I like your changed image. Just have to pull the Actions and Get HTML/BBCode links back to their respective columns and we have something I can live with. As far as the images themselves - it's really not worth as much fuss as is being made. Just feed them to AdBlock. No more images. Problem solved. Or replace them via Stylish or Greasemonkey or something like that. I would probably even be willing to write a Greasemonkey script for anyone interested, once the new layout hits me. Not everything has to be done via TJ. (Yet another reason I'd like some "hooks" in the site to hang Greasemonkey code off.) Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 I do like the text color change, however. The colour change isn't a thing for me - but those on the Portal skin (I think that's the one ?) say the text is illegible for them, so that's worth TJ's attention ! Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) The colour change isn't a thing for me - but those on the Portal skin (I think that's the one ?) say the text is illegible for them, so that's worth TJ's attention ! This I can agree on. It's not intentional, it's a formatting issue that should probably take all of 2 minutes to fix. ____________________________________________________________________________________ As an aside, another thing I've noticed is the two columns / 4 columns issue. The thing is, it's not actually MEANT to be 4 columns. It's meant to be the same two, but formatted in such a way that the start of the data is aligned, instead of just the start of the row, and the best way to do that is to display it in a table. I think the issue here is that the spacing between the label and the data is a bit too wide, so reducing that would probably get rid of the "four columns" issue. Edited April 1, 2016 by dracocharky Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 (You can describe it as you like - aligning the data just like the labels are aligned effectively *makes* this a 4-column layout, no matter how much space there is between the columns. What you want is just the space between label column and data column reduced. ) Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 Hooray, I like the new text and colour very much compared to the old one. Thanks TJ et al. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 I like the new color / font size! Now if we could only get rid of the "viewing dragon" part of it and just keep the name / code... Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 Thanks for the text size change, TJ! It looks much better now. I consider the new layout just fine now. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 1, 2016 Bah. The chain seems to be an actual PART of the link it attaches to - a character in it - (where as far as I can tell the cog isn't.) So much for element blocker.... Except that come to think I don't USE the html link thing so maybe I don't mind anyway.... Share this post Link to post
Posted April 2, 2016 Bah. The chain seems to be an actual PART of the link it attaches to - a character in it - (where as far as I can tell the cog isn't.) So much for element blocker.... Except that come to think I don't USE the html link thing so maybe I don't mind anyway.... Shouldn't stop AdBlock. Definitely won't stop Greasemonkey. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 2, 2016 Shouldn't stop AdBlock. Definitely won't stop Greasemonkey. What - a single character in a link ? Well, when I get the new layout, I'll let you know. I don't want to use greasemonkey though - it slows things down too much. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) We did it, Reddit Dragon Cave! Okay, I have nothing left to * about. That looks much better! Edited April 3, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler Share this post Link to post
Posted April 2, 2016 It looks much better with the reduced "Viewing Dragon..." text size. Share this post Link to post
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