ANSWERED:Paid Perks

[CNR4806]

No paid gameplay perks period. I don't give a damn if it's trivial like guaranteed revival or something as big as buying yourself 5 CB prizes. The fact that we would have to argue what is "trivial enough to be introduced a paid perk" and what is not is enough for me to say a blanket NO.

[olympe]

I used to play Goodgame Empire for over a year, and during that time, they started milking their players for good. In the end, it was no fun anymore. Even if you decided to pay a low monthly sum, there was always someone who was willing to pay 10 times more to win. (More building slots, faster building, better weapons, even better weapons for even more currency, better items for your generals, even better items for them, better walls, better and much faster horses, even better horses (pay per use), better items to protect your castles , better soldiers, even better - and way more expensive - super soldiers, faster recruiting, higher food production (meaning more soldiers), another boost to food production (needed to be renewed regularly) - you get the idea. Not to mention all those events that were nearly impossible to play through successfully without using the in-game currency for pretty much everything. Just look at the stuff that's underlined - that's what was there when I started.) So, I'm kind of a burned child hearing something about fire here.

 

 

So, where exactly is the line for me? Truthfully, anything that affects gameplay shouldn't be a paid perk.

 

Ad removal is fine for me, it doesn't really affect anything. Regarding changing the account name, that's something I don't want to see at all, not even for payment. I like to know that TJ09 stays TJ09, and flurp stays flurp and know who is behind this. (The latter would be fuzzbucket, btw.)

 

Regarding gender changing, there might be things that are a problem. What if someone decided to change the gender of their CB Sweetling, if you didn't prohibit that kind of thing? People could buy "unique" dragons, like female Sweetlings or Yulebucks, or male Snow Angels. Can you imagine the impact on the trading markets? Even offspring of female CB hollies are worth quite something! Of course, you could decide to not allow the gender change of mono-gendered breeds...

 

But whatever was up for pay - be it a guarantee at a CB gold, a guarantee of successful breeding / no refusal / the egg being a certain parent breed/color morph/alt, a successful summon or just adding the missing trinkets to your Easter basket or ToT pumpkin - it would set a bad precedent. Because if one of those things was available for money, why not add another? Seriously, as stupid as this might sound to you, this could easily turn into a very slippery slope. I'm sure TJ would make more money off DC, and lots of it - but DC wouldn't be itself any more. Because, no matter how much we complain, there'd be too many of us who'd use these features.

 

And don't get me started on an in-game currency that can also be bought with real money! That's how way too many f2p / p2w games work. I remember on Empire that you could earn the in-game currency in very, very small amounts. If you played almost 24/7 for half a year or more, you could afford to complete one of the harder quests. Maybe. If you were lucky.

[Fuzzbucket]

I am NOT okay with any paid perks that affect game play and give any in-game advantage to those who can afford to pay for them but leave out those who can't.

 

Fun stuff that doesn't affect anything in the game itself would be okay, I guess. I have no problem with people paying to change their names if they are bothered that much by the ones they have chosen, but I think that should even be limited to one change per player -- otherwise it might be possible for someone to use it to take advantage of other players and then hide behind a new name.

 

I would not like to see any sort of in game currency, either, whether paid for in cash or earned in some other way. I like the simplicity of this game and would like to keep that.

I am 300% with purple here. NOTHING that will disadvantage ANY player in the actual game. Changing forum names (though it should be like ebay where you can see old names on a profile, to make sure people don't use that to scam - I was once saved from being ripped off when I checked an ebay ID and realised that I'd run across that seller before...) extra skins, stuff like that - fine. Silly gifts like pens and T-shirts - OK. But ANYTHING that means people with more money (whether earned from having unlimited time to play or because they are RICH) is a no-no for game play.

 

Also - there are little kids playing - my grandchildren, for two, would be instantly disadvantaged, and no, their mother couldn't afford to pay in for them. And as for "time spent playing" "earnings" - lots of people are on capped internet; lots are limited for time in other ways... Just - NO for anything that affects the game.

 

Sure, Sinclair, this site needs money to maintain it. But TJ gets a fair bit from ads; many players donate to block them; many just donate anyway. If ANYTHING needed to happen I'd rather see a forum subscription. Game - not so keen, because of all the players who are here because it is free, and who actually couldn't afford to pay to play.

 

If it had started out as pay to play, that would be different. But it started out as free, which is what drew a lot of us here (I don't play ANYTHING that is pay to play, myself, nor would I.) And if it isn't pay to play in and of itself, bringing in buyable GAME perks would make playing an uneven playing field - and fundamentally unfair and biased towards those with money.

 

ETA found this excellent post from LoveOfTheMoonChild in the other thread. I agree entirely.

 

I used to play a game called 'Howrse'. It was fun at first and I liked the way the game ran, but the owners of the game started changing everything. They took away features, changed existing ones and the worst part was they increased the number of promos. These promos were events that had various games or competitions where you can win items and special horses. The promos took over the game and made it overwhelming. To top it off, in order to get anything 'good' out of the promos, you had to pay real money. There was also what's called a 'Pegasus account'. Basically you pay a subscription and you get VIP features. Furthermore, the 'special horses' that could be sold got so overpriced in terms of game money that you had no choice but to break out the credit card to get them. In the end it turned into a rich-kid's game. Free players got absolutely no where and it became hard to play.

 

Let DC not go that route. Please.

Edited July 31, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[Prince_Xanthius]

I, like may others, am against any gameplay related paid perks, simply because most sites that have pay-to-play aspects to them end up with a haves and have-nots class system. Even if everything is technically earnable for free as well, the effort required for free players to keep up tends to drive out a lot of free players or at least make them resigned to never being in the top echelons, and I think it sort of ruins the feel of a site.

 

Other perks (like no-ads, a badge, name change, different skins etc) I don't mind, and I consider most of what natayah mentions to be merchindise, not paid-for perks and therefore a completely different (and entirely acceptable) kettle of fish.

 

As a side note I don't like the idea of on-site currency either because it makes playing casually more difficult without missing out on things, but I don't think this is the perk.

[olympe]

Just thinking about it - if DC became pay to win, and TJ would make lots of money from it - wouldn't the artists want to have their share, too? Wouldn't it mean that TJ would have to make even more money with the site in order to pay them? Which would lead - you guessed it - more and more useful paid perks?

[Tehya Faye]

I doubt TJ would turn the game into a free-to-play-pay-to-win scam. Another free-to-play game I enjoy has some premium perks/content, but it's properly balanced to avoid making it feel like you have to spend money to get anywhere. The vast majority of the game is totally free, and the account I don't spend a cent on is just as accomplished as the one I do invest money into.

 

This game, however, would need a bit more care in balancing. The other one is basically singleplayer, so it's a bit easier to make extras purely extra rather than something that gives the paying group an advantage over the free group.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Iside]

I'm totally against paid perks that can affect the game, like buying with real money special CBs or having extra slots on scroll.

 

On the other hand I would not be against paid perks that do not give you advantages on other players, such as change scroll / forum name or having extra space on forum PM box

[DarkEternity]

I am just raising points. Some controversial, some not. Some observations. These opinions are guaranteed to contradict each other. I can't be bothered linking images properly so you'll have to look at my crappy screenshots.

 

 

 

A lot of games I've played have gone down for example DragonAdopters. Some sites like VDex are fast on the way to dying. You guys might be underestimating how often virtual pet sites die and not just Dragon Cave.

 

A little bit of inequity to ensure continued updates and new, new content and game play.

 

On the other hand, it's a curve ball, allowing artists (who are essentially unpaid volunteer labourers) to decide whether or not other users can resize/crop/make avatars out of their art/make fanart of dragons/suggestions (such as BSA suggestions and whether or not recoloured dragon sprites are going to be used and whether sprites are going to be revamped or not) and then essentially exploiting them directly to make money out of the work they provided (for free) to a game which had no paid perks at the time of the contract.

 

Paid perks are fine, I guess, if all artists agree, but would all of them? I know that I would feel more than a little put off if I made something for someone, said they could have and use it and the very next day the person that I trusted sold copies of the pet and my art which I had laboured hours over - and which they had paid nothing for - for pure USD. It's not the same if you've signed over the rights for it, however the point still stands that it's not exactly the friendliest thing in my opinion.

 

I mean, why sign over the rights in the first place and receive nothing when you could have sold the art yourself?

 

I think it opens a whole can of worms whether indirectly or directly, especially the whole businesses offering 'exposure' but no payment or compensation for hours upon hours of free labour, while making money off naive artists.

 

A lot of points have been raised about games which have premium perks. Most of those games have a dedicated artists or at least a few dedicated artists who were fine with the fact that their art was used directly (and not just ad revenue indirectly) for USD. Most of these artists would be offered compensation either in USD or have consented to receive no compensation knowing that the game makes money or receive compensation via ingame currency (in Dragcave, spriter alts are the exception not the rule) or it is the admins themselves making the art.

 

Some criticisms have also been made about artists taking the art that they made in Dragon Requests offsite in the past. These artists are accused of exploiting the community to improve their art and then abandoning Dragcave. If exploiting the community is a sin, then what does that make exploiting the community for the critiques AND the artist for the art?

 

Assuming that the artist issue is somehow dealt with, I feel that there are several issues which makes Dragcave unsuitable for paid perks. Firstly, the gameplay is limited mostly to a minigame or two on events and catching and breeding eggs. To encourage purchases, I think that much more interaction and activities to do in Dragcave are needed, like a fully fleshed out economic system and interesting game play aspects to maintain the playerbase aside of new releases.

 

Breeding is also far too easy compared to f2p games like Dragon Vale and Dragon Story to even sell, in my eyes.

 

Games that sell also tend to have user interaction. Mycena Cave has a PM system and sitewide events that allow user interaction. So does Aywas. So does Neopets and most games. Dragcave doesn't have a functional message system or allow exchange of funds to the degree that players would feel the need to spend actual money on the game.

 

There is no 'pressure' to do better outside what's found in the forum so I don't feel that there's much to monetise if user interactions are discouraged to that degree...

 

People pay money for games like Dragonvale to get a better park than their friends and so on. You could say that people would pay for CB eggs but only a few people value CBs like that. On games like Wajas 1st gens are actually useful in ways other than 'it looks nice on the lineage screen!' because gen 1s have genes that can be bred and sold off and those genes are going to cost real money/are rare which most users cannot afford. As opposed to dragcave, which most users outside of the forums often speak of 'what lineage, is lineage important?'.

 

Another selling point is graphics. Almost every game which is intent upon marketing itself improves graphics at the soonest inconvenience. Neopets, for example, updated a large amount of its pet art ignoring user protests. Sure those old pets still exist on old accounts, but they weren't afraid to do a mass update to make addons like pet clothes 'wearable'. While the changes might have severely annoyed old and conservative members, the people responsible for the change would have obviously thought that the change would have attracted and kept more newer members which is important for the longevity of the game.

 

Why am I raising this point? Because some Dragcave users have a very insular approach to art. While new sprites seek to improve upon anatomy and quality, much of the old art remains unchanged. A good proportion of the sprites like Holly and Silver carry a nostalgic value which customers may or may not appreciate. Commercial games like Dragon Story and Flight Rising etc have a unified art style where most dragons look approximately similar in quality. They also implement these art changes to update pet art perceived as inferior to correct lapses in quality and rare things in particular look as rare and shiny as their are ingame.

 

Compare this art in Aywas.

One of the most expensive breeding items:

One of the least expensive breeding items:

 

Now imagine how the consumer would feel if the least expensive breeding item was actually the most expensive. It's not as shiny. It's not as bright or, subjectively speaking, has better art quality. In fact, the USD items in Aywas have some of the best art on the website:

 

Rare, rare pet art in Dragon Story for example:

 

Common pet art in Dragon Story for example:

 

The rare pet art uses extremely popular concepts. The dragons are all part diamond - diamonds are valuable and are extremely difficult to breed (They'd never breed as dirt common as Shimmers for example) and they're shiny metallic and two are angels. Angels are a popular concept in literature and art.

 

Now if you were a new user to dragcave who had been raised on a life time on free to pay games and saw these two dragons not knowing how rare they are and they were both being sold in a shop for real life cash, which one would you rather buy?

and

F2P is strongly psychological and I've read time and time again that the majority of times people do not spend substantial quantities of money on the game without promoting addiction: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1958...he_.php?print=1

 

It has to be rare. It has to be valuable. It needs to breed things that will be valuable to the envy of others, not only a few cosmetic and superficial changes...

 

The bottom line (summary and extra)

I play quite a lot of free to play games on websites. On the few that I give time to I've got plenty of premium often in the account $2000+ range value without spending any money. However, I'm not your average player and sink an extraordinary amount of time into get so much currency and making art is often a valuable skill for making up to $200+/$400+ premium currency in a single sitting (and sometimes USD to in turn spend on games too) which most users cannot do and in most cases I'd get more currency if I got a job and used that money from working to buy things on the game than it would have been to get the game currency supposedly 'for free'.

 

I play quite a lot of free to play games on idevices. Mostly, I have never gotten a single valuable item on these or anything and deleted the apps after finding them an unbearable grind full of paywalls designed to only allow people who pay money through.

 

However, I've played games I've put a lot of time into and those games got shut down. Had those games actually had funding from F2P, I feel that this 'sin' would have been worth it in order to keep the game afloat. The amount of progress that was lost and the amount of time spent on something which ultimately resulted in nothing - well would it have been worth that amount of unfairness?

 

Yes, probably.

 

To consider the amount of time that TJ spends on this website too

Reading this entire tl;dr piece you'd think that I am very negative about F2P games and the perceived unfairness towards artists and players.

 

However TJ would spend a lot of time and unpaid labour coding, hosting the website (and servers do not cheap especially if you are buying computers and the bandwidth to run them to run them) as well as the amount of education you'd spend learning how to do that (Bachelor Degrees? Self learning? College?) and all the ins and outs of everything from preventing the server from being compromised and data leakage to getting up early at ungodly hours to diagnose and fix problems on an online game while dealing with real life. The cumulative cost of all this is exorbitantly expensive and on some level I quite disagree with the idea that the game should remain free just so that I could trade my dragons at acceptable rates and not ignore the amount of effort and money that TJ would have pumped into a 'pixel dragon game' potentially at the cost of his life outside of the internet both in opportunities (job, etc.), mental health and hobbies.

 

Saying that TJ shouldn't charge paid perks is like saying that TJ should continue running the website at a negative cost to himself just so we can have some free entertainment. And why should it bother us if someone else is paying to maintain our source of entertainment and getting a benefit equal to their contribution?

 

TJ most likely has a life and career outside of running Dragcave too which could quite easily be seen as an enormous, thankless and drama filled task paved by conservative users unwilling to support even the slightest change to the site and it could be argued that the artists already allowed their sprites to be used on Dragcave. Contributing art to a website that is ultimately discontinued would be worse than contributing art to allow a website to exist and stay financially afloat.

 

Not to mention the electricity bills and the software and perhaps the technical support and the IRC and accounting for the interests of the artists (and communicating with them which is somewhat difficult if the two of you have a falling out) and providing free unpaid technical help support for users some of whom might be painfully difficult to deal with and assume they are entitled to time and effort without contributing a cent to an entirely free game. (Out of hours unpaid work on top of hours of unpaid work. )

 

The absolute bottom line

To be frank, it's absolutely none of my business what people choose to do with their art or game so I have no idea why I am bothering to write up this seemingly contradictory series of opinions.

 

And like it's been said there are a lot of ways to introduce revenue that don't necessarily involve impacting upon the experience like having HTML code editing on the scrolls of people who spend money or user titles etc but I believe that these would ultimately be more ineffective and would not generate a sustainable amount of money to be worth implementing them...

 

The absolute, absolute bottom line

And, perhaps most sadly, Dragon Cave is the only truly 'free' game without premium perks that I play anyway...

But for how long will it remain 'free'?

But for how long will it remain remain a game without being financially sustainable?

 

This is a rather depressing topic made especially depressing by the fact that so many people are involved in the creation of Dragcave from TJ to the artists to the conceptors.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DarkEternity

[DragonLady86]

Hmm, not sure how I feel about this actually.

 

In general, I've went through a lot of free-to-play games. I generally play as a free player and if the game keeps my interest for several months, I will make at least an occasional purchase in order to support them. I'm not paying to better than anyone one, but to enhance my experience; as well as doing my part to keep the games I like around by ensuring the company running it is getting something back.

 

Dragcave has successfully held my interest far longer than anything I've ever played. (Including WOW which is definitely a paid game). I am happy to support this game. Even though TJ apparently makes enough off add revenue to pay for it already. (Which is good, as it means DC isn't going away anytime soon unlike most f2p which have rather limited lifespans generally)

 

However, I LIKE that I don't have to pay for anything here. That dragcave doesn't have anything to buy. Being a poor college grad with much of my income going back into paying off those school loans, I don't have a lot to put into my games. But here, there isn't anything that I have to go "well maybe I can scrape up a few dollars to get X nice thing". Nobody has anything here that I can't get myself if I work long enough. (Ok there may be a few, but Spriter's alts are a perk of doing the in cave art, and glitches like Missingno are, well, glitches that TJ chose not to delete/fix. So they don't count.)

 

 

 

So, I suppose I'm leaning towards: paid is okay, if free players can still get the benefit too, with a little more time/work. Small things like changing the scroll name maybe don't need to have a free variation. (Unless we're going with the in-game currency that can be bought or earned and it costs so much of that rather than a flat dollar amount)

[Cinnamin Draconna]

In game perks that affect game play.... NO!!!!!

 

Simple things that are 'just for fun' and have no effect on game play... not really in favor of, but I could live with them.

 

Adding an in-game currency... I could support this, but only if you can't use real money to purchase in-game currency. I'm in favor of The Store suggestion elsewhere, as a way to get things that aren't available otherwise. I've always been opposed to the raffle and would like a way to get my own cb prize dragons and/or honorable mention dragons. I see in-game currency as a way to get that unobtainable by any other means dragon... i.e. cb ALT black/vine/undine, cb hybrids, old pinks and frills, and of course, cb tinsels and shimmers.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Cinnamin Draconna

[cyradis4]

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

If it doesn't affect the dragons or game play, I'm all for it. Things like "Change Username" is a perfect feature to have as a paid one. It does not affect the dragons, it does not affect game play, it only affects the login.

 

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

Paid currency is VERY hard to deal with and balance right. And having the ability to earn it in-game, EASILY, is Very Important. Most sites seem to make the $$ currency waaaay too hard to earn in-game, meaning that those not willing to spend $$ on it are at a severe disadvantage. Some games are better than others, but for all games I know that have a $$ currency.... Those who can spend $$ have a huge advantage. But then.... DC has always had a different premise, in that you do it for fun rather than to make $$. And I think, so long as you keep firmly in mind that being able to earn enough of the premium currency through game play is Absolutely Critical, I think it could work.

 

Here's the sites I play / have played, and my take on their currencies:

 

FlightRising is ok at it: the buying power of the premium currency is very low, meaning you have to spend tons of $$ to get even one thing... But everything you can buy with it is semi-permanent / cycles in and out, and none of it is critical. You can earn it in game, and you can sell the normal currency / other things for the premium currency. If you are clever and patient, you can get ahead in FR without buying the premium currency. But you do have to know how to work the system... Which is something many people don't know how to do / aren't good at.

 

Sylestia is ok at it: Their premium currency can't be gotten through game play, but its buying power is enough and there are enough ways to earn the other currencies that buying it from others in safe, easy ways makes up for a lot. But even there, if you have $$ to spend on it.... You are far better off. Even $5 a month gives you a real leg up.

 

Aywas has turned very $$ hungry, and its driven me away. There is so much of the nicer stuff you need the premium currency to get that is ridiculous. If you have real $$ to spend.... you have a HUGE advantage. Or if you are an excellent artist and can contribute.

 

UniCreatures / UniFaction is also very $$ hungry and drove me away. I don't mind spending $5 or $10 a month on a game.... IF the perks I'm getting are nice enough. For these... it wasn't. There was far, far, far too much you had to buy each month and not a good way to get the premium currency in-game.

 

PonyIsland: This is different from the others in that it IS pay-to-play, but its cheap enough that users without $$ can buy it off other users. The $$ only buys you extra accounts, though. Each account has 200 spaces and cost $14 for 6 months of play... And you can have as many accounts as you want. Their premium currency is earned in-game. The game is currently having some problems with the Admins (lovers who broke up), but the site has been going for over a decade, and if the Admins can sort their personal lives sorted out the game has a very bright future. But even now, if you play consistently, its possible to earn enough in-game currency to buy the renewals from other users.

 

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

 

I've personally never played a free-to-play site that having $$ wasn't a HUGE leg-up. In each and every game I've played, you HAD to be clever and good at the game to be able to go head-to-head with those who have $$.

 

Some huge DO NOT DOs, from my experience:

- Temporary pets that cost $$

- Any temporary item that costs $$

- Any game feature that is temporary that costs $$

 

All three of those puts those who do not have $$ at severe disadvantages. Now, if you use a currency to get them that is EASY to earn in sufficient quantities through game play (but can also be bought), then temporary items / dragons / features aren't as big of a deal. Or a species of dragon that is permanent, but costs the premium currency to get.

 

 

 

 

 

tl;dr

Premium currencies / paid features in my experience all give huge advantages to those with $$. For it to work without driving people away in droves, it would HAVE to either be:

1. Very non-essential things (dragons / BSAs and such being essential)

2. Very inexpensive and easily earn-able in-game without $$

 

Very few sites get it right, in my experience.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Ruby Eyes]

As I said in the other thread, "the advertising removal has always seemed like a legitimate paid feature, since the site does receive money from advertising. I don't think in-game features need to be paid, can't think of anything I would want that badly. Maybe a charge for changing a scroll or forum name would be reasonable, if it means that much to someone.

 

The one thing I would be interested in paying for are downloadable copies of some of the holiday events, especially the Gingerbread house and the Snow Fort. These were almost like pixel versions of Legos or Lincoln Logs to me, and the idea to be able to create and save an infinite variety of buildings and designs has always seemed like something I would enjoy when I want something to do offline. I missed the 2014 Christmas event, so I have no idea if it would be suitable, but this is the kind of thing that I would consider buying."

That sounds like a good idea! Christmas 2014 would also be a nice game to replay, yes.

Otherwise, I quite agree with you.

 

Generally, NO to yet another currency that directly translates to real money spent.

 

- More Inbox Space on Forum

I like this idea There could be a fundraiser for a proper and hopefully flawless forum software move that could enable this.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Ruby Eyes

[VixenDra]

Omg, I'm DYING to change my username in the game for months...

To prevent abuse of namechange I believe that the first change should be free, or the first change if one already earns a trophy: either brown or gold and not beofre this. And any next for money. And a tme limit between changes. E.g. Deviantart has a 6 months cooldown for name change.

 

 

I think that the currency should be both buyable with money and earnable in the game. Maybe could be as well giftable, e.g. you got some help from another user and want to thank them while e.g. you have nothing to offer to that person bec. they e.g. already have everything they needed and could be given. e.g DA points can be given away.

 

 

I think this could remind of the facebook games(I played Rise of Berk-currently-, Dragoncity, Dragon's World and a few others but for a too short period), in which the currency serves speeding up as well as e.g. buying a given breed of the creature instead of trying to find it/breed it and some additional perks. However there shouldn't be any money exclusive breed(I mean CB availability, not breeding) - unless the currency can be somehow earned by regular gameplays and unless that breed is time limited.

 

I believe these could be purhaseable:

*username changes (at least those past the first change)

*additional incubations for an egg

*BSA and breeding cooldown refresh

*speeding up hatchling's growth

*adding day to an egg or hatchling

*change of gender of an adult

*trading and teleporting of an adult

*refusal removal

*8th egg slot

*CB of any breed (at least the breeds regularly dropping in caves) - though there should be sth to prevent the cave drop ratio of rares, so it doesn't become a *purchase-only thing for e.g. CB metals.

*Maybe CBs of some exclusive breed (whose offspring would be abandonable and tradeable)

*possibility to not abandon all eggs from Holiday clusters (so one doesn't have to keep just one but can keep all eggs from the given cluster)

*Increase of GoN limit

*increase of a chance to breed an egg of the chosen parent's breed or an alt

Edited July 31, 2015 by VixenDra

[Ruby Eyes]

See, if I wanted to play facebook games, I'd go to facebook and play them there.

[DarkEternity]

@Cyradis Aywas is money hungry but Flight Rising's rarest items are far more expensive real money wise than Aywas'. It's the value of the Slashbot vs Boolean and Imp scrolls. Imp scrolls and Boolean will not ever be released again, any item in the game is available from Ghost Chocolates in Aywas and the limited editions are a walking expense disaster which will only snowball from here.

 

For me the tiering is

Fangames (zero cost, zero ads)>Dragcave(ads)>VDex (cheap cosmetic stuff) > (probably most adopt sites here) > Aywas (getting expensive) > Flight Rising (very very expensive top tier items) > Dragon Story and all of those awful paywalled to hell 'pay money to buy this or never get it' scams

 

But if I had to tier based on pure obtainability and not expensiveness I would tier Dragcave after almost everything because literally none of the CB prizes can be gotten or reliably obtained even if it's definitely the best game hands down for me. It's just so random.

 

Don't even get me started on DEVIANTART'S PREMIUM CURRENCY.

 

@Ruby Eyes I know a forum which does inbox space. + signatures etc. Gallifreybase is much larger than DC and they struggle to make ends meet with that and they offer additional features too.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DarkEternity

[cyradis4]

@DarkEternity:

 

Aywas vs FR can be argued either way. The Imps / Boolians on FR can't be obtained anymore, true... But they never have been available from the game for premium currency. And they retire stuff at the drop of a hat, which can be irritating. Only WCs, some familiars, and some items used to be available for the premium currency now aren't, and I think all of those are cycling, not retired. WCs are certainly cycling. And what the premium currency buys vs what the reg currency buys hasn't changed in the 2 years I've been there. Also, you didn't need to buy new stuff for the premium currency each and every month.

 

But when I was playing Aywas, I quickly began to feel the need to spent RL $$, and.... I wasn't getting enough for that $$. And the GP shop pets..... A whole new set that cost premium currency every month, and almost always the best of the lot? That would be around for a short time? Yea, I really did not like that format.

 

Either way, I would not want to see DragCave to go down EITHER path. In FR, its too hard for new people to learn HOW to play the game to get the premium currency, and they usually need help to figure it out. Especially now! For Ayways, its a constant "money money money" thing going on.... Even if, if you are an older player, you can get every pet other ways.

 

 

My suggestion to TJ:

Start with paid "perks" that DO NOT affect dragons or game play directly. Such as:

Scroll / forum name change

Special Scroll Theme

 

And see how it goes. If it goes well.... THEN bring up the discussion about the premium currency. Or first, introduce any currency at all, but have it strictly in-game. Then, if the currency system works out, then bring up the discussion about paying for it.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited July 31, 2015 by cyradis4

[RecycledHeart]

I believe these could be purhaseable:

 

*additional incubations for an egg

*BSA and breeding cooldown refresh

*speeding up hatchling's growth

*adding day to an egg or hatchling

*change of gender of an adult

*trading and teleporting of an adult

*refusal removal

*8th egg slot

*CB of any breed (at least the breeds regularly dropping in caves) - though there should be sth to prevent the cave drop ratio of rares, so it doesn't become a *purchase-only thing for e.g. CB metals.

*Maybe CBs of some exclusive breed (whose offspring would be abandonable and tradeable)

*possibility to not abandon all eggs from Holiday clusters (so one doesn't have to keep just one but can keep all eggs from the given cluster)

*Increase of GoN limit

*increase of a chance to breed an egg of the chosen parent's breed or an alt

No absolutely not. I would never agree to these.

 

1.)people would be able to get even more dragons and not have to hold onto an egg as long putting free players at a disadvantage.

2.)Again this puts free players at a disadvantage.

3.)Look at number one.

4.)Would still put free players at a disadvantage.

5.)Would have to make it so mono gender dragons can't do that, and only unbred dragons which have both genders available to them.

6.)Absolutely not. Frills and bright pinks??! They would destroy the trading market. People would be trading 20 cb gold and silver adults for one frill adult. And let's not forget cb prizes.

6.)Again free player disadvantage.

7.)Look at number 6.

8.)Nope. Guess how many people would buy cb golds, therefore screwing up the ratios even more.

9.)free player disadvantage.

10.)No, free player disadvantage.

11.)Look, free player disadvantage.

 

 

All of these affect gameplay which of course causes free player disadvantage.

[VixenDra]

No absolutely not. I would never agree to these.

 

1.)people would be able to get even more dragons and not have to hold onto an egg as long putting free players at a disadvantage.

2.)Again this puts free players at a disadvantage.

3.)Look at number one.

4.)Would still put free players at a disadvantage.

5.)Would have to make it so mono gender dragons can't do that, and only unbred dragons which have both genders available to them.

6.)Absolutely not. Frills and bright pinks??! They would destroy the trading market. People would be trading 20 cb gold and silver adults for one frill adult. And let's not forget cb prizes.

6.)Again free player disadvantage.

7.)Look at number 6.

8.)Nope. Guess how many people would buy cb golds, therefore screwing up the ratios even more.

9.)free player disadvantage.

10.)No, free player disadvantage.

11.)Look, free player disadvantage.

 

 

All of these affect gameplay which of course causes free player disadvantage.

Still, I believe everything should be obtainable without using real money.

And what's the point of purchasing anything, no matter if with money or virtual currency, if you get no advantage at all?

 

 

Yes, I agree about the gender being changed only to dragons who were never bred.

The CD purchase should be limited to e.g. 1-2 CB of a given breed per person, at least for rares.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes, I agree about the gender being changed only to dragons who were never bred.

Oh god yes - never thought of that

[RecycledHeart]

Yes, what is the point of spending money if you get no advantage. I don't see a point. But some people might be happy to pay for stuff like changing username or old minigames. I have no issue with those. But the moment it puts free players at a disadvantage I'm going to fight against it. I would rather this game stays the same where you only have to pay with time to get something.

 

 

[Starscream]

I think that the currency should be both buyable with money and earnable in the game. Maybe could be as well giftable, e.g. you got some help from another user and want to thank them while e.g. you have nothing to offer to that person bec. they e.g. already have everything they needed and could be given. e.g DA points can be given away.

 

 

I am a moderator, I will therefore pick at this from a mod's point of view. It is my job to protect the users.

 

In game made money and bought money.

 

I think the only issue I have with it being giftable is people who have multiple accounts profiting. Multi-scrollers are perfectly fine with cheating the system as it stands, they would be in their element if there was a currency they could share with their primary scroll - this would give them power and advantage over people who would play with one scroll.

 

 

Now I can understand a legitimate parent, lets say, wanting to buy a bulk amount of currency and then parting it out to their children.

 

Now if gifting money was limited to purchased only, it could possibly put a kink in advantage by multi-scrollers That would mean the account that got money gifted would not be able to gift it out. This could also protect the parent from having some person scam the money from her children.

 

Then this brings me to scams. Could this open the door to a new form of scamming players? Bad enough IOU scams happened, but if people wanted to pay in game currency for hatchlings or eggs not yet in possession of the one receiving it?

 

Moderators cannot do anything about scams of any type right now, adding a scam system which involves potentially real money would be a nightmare.

 

Unfortunately the bad apples (multi-scrollers) will potentially ruin this idea for well meaning, honest DC family players.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Starscream

[Red2111]

i'm for pay for features being added to the site to a point

 

 

something like what WoW did as a promotion (i think it was a promotion, i dont play WoW but i'm a gamer so i recall hearing about it). where people could pay to bypass the grinding needed to be a 17th level character. so you can either pay to get immediate gratification, or you can grind it out and have the gratification of earning the character.

 

something like that but translated into this game. something that just allows for immediate gratification rather than giving a direct advantage to game play (granted it will create an advantage no matter what, but given that non-paying members can still get it, but just have to wait for it, reduces the amount of "advantage" thats created)

 

so things like

 

- reduce BSA CD times

- get a dead egg of the scroll

- reduce breeding CD (excluding Holidays)

- getting the next trophy

- max tickets allowed for the raffle without playing the mini game/event

 

stuff like that, which would happen normally but you can pay a small amount to "speed up the clock" and if we end up with an in-game currency; a way to buy the currency should be implemented.

 

ie: say currency is set to automatically accrue a set amount per day. a feature shoudl be allowed on a monthly basis to just pay for the max you'd accrue each moth without having to worry about doing what ever is required to accruing it (be it a game, raising dragons, logging in, ect). it doesnt give an advantage, it just speeds up the clock and guarantees you get the max allowed currency that all users could get.

 

so if TJ incorperates an in game currency, and sets the cap at a max of 10 coins per day for various activities we already do (naming, reviewing descriptions, raising dragons, breeding dragons, ect); you pay a monthly fee that ensures you get the 10 coins per day even if you dont log on.

 

the coins would be theoretically easy enough to earn that you dont have to grind, as it would be incorporated into the normal game play; so the "pay advantage" is less of an advantage and more of a security net to make sure you get those coins JIC your net goes out or whatever.

 

and then also litte intrinsic things that dont have to do with breeding, catching and trading dragons. like the badge's, skins, changing user names, increasing inbox space, no advertisements, store items (like books, shirts, key chains, magnets, ect), special art .... stuff like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you know i keep seeing the words "no pay to win" thrown around. but i have to wonder .... how can you "pay to win" on a site where there is NO win condition?

 

"winning" on this site is purely based on a users personal perspective. majority of us agree that "winning a CB prize is like winning the lotto", but there are others out there that *gasp* dont like prizes at all, see winning a prize as more of a losing the game because of the headache and drama that comes with them and would see getting a 2G thuwed, CB Gold or 2G Spriters Alt as "winning".

 

 

so for all this crying about "no pay to win" ... there is no win condition so it cant be "pay to win"

 

i mean, really what exactly is this "win" that you guys keep referring to?

 

advantage in the trading market? then dont participate in the trading market. its not a requirement to play the game and infact is a recent addition to the game itself.

 

pretty lineages? 90% of the dragons released on this site are easy to get and very pretty. some of the most easily made lineages are among the prettiest. you dont always need something "shiny" in the line to make it "pretty". especially as pretty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

rare dragons? some of the dragons that are "rare" are only wanted because of their "rarity" rather than because the sprite is ubber nice. take tinsels for instance. they're not the best looking sprite in comparison to shimmers or Gold Wyvrens. generally people want them for trading value, rather than "because i like the sprite". take my scroll for instance. i hoard Nebulas and Moonstones, just as much as i hoard prizes and gold wyvrens. why, because i adore the sprites of the Nebula and Moonstones not because they're rare.

 

i would actually suggest that people are more apt to WANT something because its rare, but are much more likely to COLLECT and HOARD something because they find it esthetically appeasing. when something is not only RARE but also looks PRETTY (silver shimmers ) then you hit the jack pot lmao

 

 

all of this to say, i think the "pay to win" argument is a thin shield. just like the white knighting that goes on around here for the "users that aren't on the forum" or the "new users that haven't signed up yet". its white knighting and a straw man argument; and its not a mature way to handle a discussion or debate. every time i see it made, i literally roll my eyes IRL because its a tactic aimed to shut down an argument you cant otherwise argue against. /rant

 

 

 

 

 

i think possibly most everybody here is missing something; this site, like any other game site, takes a lot of work to maintain

 

and TJ is not disney/jagex/viacom/whatever big developer/owner who's already bringing in the big bucks from ad revenue and selling overpriced merchandise, etc (f.e. this is why the existence of neopets' premium accounts and the through the roof prices for neocash piss me off; they are already raking in the millions with that ad revenue, and somebody who's played for 10 years still can't access incredibly useful things like the extra pet slot that comes with premium without giving millionaire company neopets $30/month and you're almost entirely blocked off from pet customization, a huge focus of the site now, without that through the roof neocash - i actually wouldn't have much of an issue with these being paid features if neopets was run by 5 people pouring energy into the site and just trying to get by financially but^^^^^^^^huge company)

 

DC is not a public service, you're not entitled to a good time here, and i'm certain the work takes up a significant chunk of TJ's life/resources

 

from what i can gather this place is entirely independently run (let me know if i have an misinfo here i haven't been around too long) and independent artists/developers/etc of course have the full right to choose who gets to consume their hard work, what features of it and under what circumstances

 

TJ's hard work needs to be fully appreciated and his time needs to be respected just as you would your own time

 

certainly if you love this game enough you'd like to support its creators to SOME extent, or at *least* have the decency not to throw a tantrum when the concept of money is brought anywhere near you

 

of course i don't at all know TJ's feelings on making any profit from this site (maybe he has some fairytale of a deal with the ad company and is already making profit, maybe he doesn't even make enough off the ads to cover the hosting bills each month let alone begin to compensate himself for all his time spent, i have no idea) but i do know some of you really need to check yourselves and be open to the wishes of any independent creator whose work you love

 

i've seen this sort of pre-anything super-entitlement waaaaaay too many times towards e.g. artists and independent video game makers and it is just unbelievable (though of course certainly this isn't bad compared to what i've seen on more major scales)

 

again, disclaimer, obviously i don't know TJ's actual feelings or financial status, whether he sees this as charity work or an all-consuming thankless job or what, all i'm saying is be open to the idea. how would you feel if you were in TJ's position working your tail off and you know you can't even begin to throw out the idea of requesting anything from anybody in return without half your userbase essentially screaming at the top of their lungs and pummeling you

 

and before anything is said about me i'm broke as all i just have pretty heavy experience in the world of content-creation as do the groups i roll in so i know this shtuff well enough to immediately know it and get pissed when i see it

 

^ my sentiments exactly

[DarkEternity]

@Cyradis I guess it can be argued different ways because I won an official colouring contest on Aywas and got 110 million BP (157 GP when converted across, $157 'worth' of premium currency) but winning a contest on FR gets something like 1000 gems, a skin set and vista. It's like getting $10 vs $75 worth for approximately the same competition. Plus custom accent blueprints cost a ton compared to mostly free 30% edits on Aywas.

 

However, premium items on FR tend to be cheaper but some of the familiars are crazy expensive. A lot of Aywas users trade funds intersite with Flight Rising. The most expensive Aywas item onsite apparently sold for 3500 GP (about 1750 USD) but one person is selling or trying to sell Imp scrolls for 7500 GP (about 3750 USD). Apart from Bool and Imp scrolls the second tier down are the KS familiars which I think matched the second tier most expensive items on Aywas (Breeding Pendants). However there are ways of getting Pendants like winning contests, ghost chocolates or balloons. Even if pendants are going to rise in value they won't rise like FR sprites/KS because no new ones are added. And other than that Flight Rising currency is considered as a kind of gold standard. Almost everyone accepts it. This means that your FR currency holds its value across every website. This drives its price (especially gems) up because not only are people getting it to buy high tier items like Boolean but people are scrounging it up to save for things on other websites as well.

 

Like you could buy a light sprite from FR with Aywas currency, wait a year and sell it for profit with no effort whatsoever. FR currently has no price ceiling and with that many gems in existence I have a bit of a hard time believing that people are paying real money for cheap gem items. (If that was the case then the gems in circulation would be 0 since the system would gobble it up). Since basically everything on Flight Rising can be sold for gems they can buy literally anything in the game with enough money.

 

FR and Aywas have also attracted real money spending 'whales' willing to spend huge amounts of money because buying premium currency offers such a huge advantage and is so much easier. What's the ratio on 100 gems ($1) to treasure now? I think it's something like 50,000 treasure but the cap on how much you can earn from mini games is like 75,000 treasure. That's quite a lot of in game currency compared to hours of grinding.

 

Don't forget the players that are annoyed by F2P too. If TJ were to implement it he might scare off those players who would pay ad revenue but he's relying on the F2p sales to make up for it. What I'm saying is that things like changing scrollnames might sound good idea but it might frighten off a few players/annoy people and not pay out enough to compensate. I also can't imagine paying for something like that, no offence. Being able to customise, recolour or resprite bits of them would be the absolute minimal motivation I can see for spending real money. Wajas has dyes, Aywas has customs and FR has custom skins. If each petsite was an isolated system people might spend but right now people using multiple sites would pay for whichever one they like the most and gets you the most advantage because I think most people have limited disposable income.

 

All the petsites compete against each other for the same limited set of customers. All in all there's no harm and selling things like scroll name changes unless it incites a backlash.

 

@Starscream one word: chargebacks. Most sites ban for that though.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DarkEternity

[danicast]

To be very honest I have nothing against any paid feature as long as they are not mandatory, meaning, if I want to remain as a free player, I can. I had to give up to other sites before because they became paid sites and I felt really sad about it. But optional stuff doesn't bother me. I don't see much difference between someone who have an expensive internet connection and a high end computer and can hunt CB golds as much as please them and someone who can buy a CB gold. In fact, maybe I would buy a CB shimmer to myself.

 

But there is another thing: I would love to see a better quality site. Most of the suggestions are in the suggestions forum since forever and are not implemented ever. If the site start to have paid features, I would like to see some of the suggestions implemented - and that's a reason why I'm not against the idea to have paid features in the first place if that means a better site in the end.

[DarkEternity]

Although, if the raffle were a thing designed to make people want to buy CB shimmers I probably would have spent RL money on one if it wasn't more than 75 USD or something. When you compare the hours spent trying to win it would have been worth it. Even if it was like 125 or 150 ten or something hours is nothing compared to ten+ years of anticipation and sadness and ruining family holidays by not wanting to spend christmas with relatives.

 

I'd cry but I'd buy one as a christmas present for myself.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DarkEternity