Gender Identity Safe Space Thread

[DuskOfTheStars]

Thank you, Sock! *hugs* That makes me feel better.

 

I'll admit I'm only really out on here and one other site myself. Everywhere else I've ended up logging off for good due to various reasons. While I want to go back to this one Minecraft server, what stops me from doing so is nervousness about outing myself there and not wanting to be misgendered. And everywhere else? Aside from the reasons I left... There's a reason I have my pronouns stated in my profile (and now signature) and my gender set - said reason being misgendering, as people seem to identify me with the binary gender I happen to have the more serious issues with being gendered as. A lot.

 

-

 

One thing I like about my username is how gender-neutral it is - it doesn't sound stereotypically masculine/feminine, which I'm glad about. Neither do the short forms of it, either. If only my real-life first name wasn't so associated with my birth gender and was a gender-neutral one or had a gender-neutral derivative...

Edited March 2, 2017 by Dusky_Flareon

[TCA]

I like several of the non-gendered singular pronouns people have come up with, think they convey the meaning people want them to, and I really wish at least one set would enter common usage, so that 1, people would stop struggling with them and they'd no longer seem "attention-seeking" to people who don't understand the need for them, 2, the associated concept (referring to a person not as "not sure whether male or female" but "neither is applicable") would be easier to process for people just learning about it because people would have the linguistic framework to put the idea to, and 3, people who don't want to try to construct new pronouns on their own wouldn't be forced to fall back on the somewhat awkward usage of "they" or "it" unless they legitimately want to. One set for "nonbinary" and one for "agender" would make sense linguistically but there could be more actually adopted in common usage, and obviously it'd have to be ones people feel comfortable using for those gender identities, so that'd obviously shape the meaning during the process of those words becoming common usage.

 

That said, I've seen people say they want to use "xe/xir" as a pronoun, and I'm legitimately just curious: how do you pronounce that? I'm not very good at pronouncing words I've only ever seen in text, and I've never come across anyone IRL who actually used pronouns that weren't she, he, or they. So I've. Never heard it.

 

Also sorry if this post is really rambly and out of place? I'm just approaching this from a psychological perspective of, people IRL who don't currently take alternate gender identities seriously generally would take those identities more seriously if they had linguistic framework to support it that was in wide usage, so maybe a bunch of people should like, agree on some sets of pronouns and what identities they'd correspond to and then write young adult fantasy/magical realism/dystopian/etc. novels with major characters that use them until one gets really popular and then those pronouns would start to circulate in the common consciousness, which'd make those identities and pronouns become widely socially accepted... That might help a lot of people feel better about these things, maybe? Then people could come clean about identifying with those pronouns without being as scared that they'd be considered "weird" or not taken seriously.

 

(also it's like 11:30 at night so double apologies if this is out of place)

 

edit: (also also, does being comfortable with one particular gendered pronoun necessarily even mean someone's binary or could someone just not feel strongly about pronouns and be fine with it just due to being accustomed to it because I wonder about myself sometimes, especially when I stop and think about "what does being 'female' or 'male' even mean", also I need to stop doing the thing where I always edit my posts 500 times someone stop me)

Edited March 2, 2017 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[Obscure_Trash]

I really wish at least one set would enter common usage, so that 1, people would stop struggling with them and they'd no longer seem "attention-seeking" to people who don't understand the need for them,

There are like four billion different names out there. We don't worry about learning every single one of those ahead of time. Unless you're a jerk or racist or islamophobic or whatever, you learn how to pronounce someone's name when you meet them.

 

So I wish people would just treat pronouns like names and stop trying limit people in identifying in how they want to identify.

 

If more pronouns were in our vocabulary like names are, it'd become easier for people.

 

xie/xyr/xem I pronounce as if with a z.

Edited March 2, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[TCA]

That makes sense. If a few entered common usage first, that'd then open things up for a linguistic trend of pronouns being really variable like names, like you said... and it'd certainly facilitate writing. Character-specific pronouns would be really fun to write if that takes off, I hope it does.

 

Also, neat. I like that.

 

edit: oh no I'm still editing my posts repeatedly I should not be up this late trying to chat

Edited March 2, 2017 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[DuskOfTheStars]

I do wish some alternate pronoun sets would make it into the dictionaries and/at least or be more widely accepted - I used they/them till I found other gender-neutral pronouns for lack of a pronoun that really felt right to me. Now if we were more exposed to more pronoun sets, I think we'd have less hangups over "attention-seeking".

 

I say it x-e/x-ir/x-em with slight emphasis on the x when I try them aloud, though I would like to note that I pronounce words phonetically unless corrected by habit of learning to read before to talk, so Sock is probably closer to the mark.

 

Edit; oh whoops. I always forget to refresh when someone replies before I post. Sorry!

Edited March 2, 2017 by Dusky_Flareon

[Obscure_Trash]

Here's a link with pronunciation written out: https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/xe/ (x is meant to be an aesthetic change to the z set)

And here's a video where you can hear some different pronouns spoken general warning for language on youtube:

(Follow the transcript with the video to see how each pronoun is spelled.)

 

May be of interest or help! :3

[Sundew]

There are like four billion different names out there. We don't worry about learning every single one of those ahead of time. Unless you're a jerk or racist or islamophobic or whatever, you learn how to pronounce someone's name when you meet them.

 

So I wish people would just treat pronouns like names and stop trying limit people in identifying in how they want to identify.

ah wow, i wish I had seen it written out like this earlier. that's a great comparison.

 

yeah, English is definitely in desperate need of a widely used singular gender neutral pronoun.

"they/them" is workable, to a point, but it's ridiculous that there isn't an accepted better workaround.

 

to be honest, i kind of hate gendered pronouns as a whole. i would really like to be able to refer to someone in the third person without dictating their gender just by doing so. -- and i would LOVE to be able to use "they/them" without someone bringing up the question of them being male or female.

[Ribombee]

to be honest, i kind of hate gendered pronouns as a whole. i would really like to be able to refer to someone in the third person without dictating their gender just by doing so. -- and i would LOVE to be able to use "they/them" without someone bringing up the question of them being male or female.

This. I'm not really sure how to classify my gender. MOST of the time I identify with the female body I am in. So it's not usually a problem. I guess maybe mildly gender fluid would be the best descriptor? Still, it would be really nice to have a generally accepted pronoun that we could address people with until they give their preferred pronoun. It's hardwired in me to use 'she' and 'he' because we do NOT have anything, and I'm always afraid I will misgender someone on accident. Even if they aren't offended, I know it feels...disappointing (at BEST) to be misgendered. When I'm not feeling fully female, it's grating to be called "she", even though I know MOST of the time that pronoun fits me just fine.

 

Some people have suggested asking for pronouns for people whom they are not sure about, but then it can be really uncomfortable for everyone. Firstly, what defines "not sure about"? I LOOK female. Most of the time, I AM female. You can't tell by looking at the way I dress or act that sometimes I don't FEEL female and would prefer a gender-neutral pronoun. The only way it would work would be to ask EVERYONE what their preferred pronoun is (even if they seem to fit a binary). Even then, it risks outing people who don't want to be outed. If we just had a non-gendered pronoun that was the DEFAULT, it would be so useful. People could then choose to give their preferred pronouns, or to let people continue using the default.

[Wildmoon]

So, it's been a while, but I think I've figured out my gender identity, for the most part.

I myself, am not technically the same person I was when I previously posted.

(Since with the dissociation, the old "ANP" is now gone, and I am the ANP now)

 

I think, personally, as "Sirje" I mostly identify with female, and use female pronouns, though some days, I do feel more masculine. So I think I may be perhaps genderfluid in some way. Even now I don't like my gender to be automatically assumed, I prefer people to ask wether they should call me female or not =P

 

I think I may always be a little confused, but that's alright. I'm happy with who I am, my fiance is happy with who I am, and that is all that matters.

 

I do have other Alters who Identify as male, too, though. So it can get confusing. Some have no gender at all. But I've stopped seeing it as how I did before, trying too hard to put a label on it, and thinking "what am i" - because now I know it doesn't matter, I can be who I want. :3

 

And a huge thanks to those that helped my "previous self" with the binders, ect. I bought one from the site suggested and it was a bit too small at first, but with the weight I've lost it fits comfortably, and works really well for my male alts, and myself on the days I feel more male.

[Sundew]

I've kept this thread open in a mobile tab for the last few days, wondering what to say, how to say it without getting too personal, whether voicing my own doubts could inadvertently upset someone else, whether or not to post.

 

I'm trying to figure out where I am right now, and how that relates to what my peers have experienced. I'm disgusted by a lot of what I see in the world, and the resistance to improvement/denial of problems is disheartening. I'm not comfortable associating with either sex--the idea of being tied to those traditional ideals is repulsive. At the same time, I am not sure I want to label myself as non-binary or agender: I worry that creating new categories will only help to reinforce the old.

 

I don't realistically expect to be able to use "they/them" as pronouns in real life. I'd like to ask people in the chats I frequent to refer to me as such, but I don't know how to. I know that no matter what I do, I will always be associated with the gender I was born with.

 

Currently I've been doing my best to transition to a more androgynous appearance. Reluctance to be gendered has led to some good things--eating better, losing weight, exercising regularly--and to some bad things--getting rid of most of my clothes, losing almost all interest in sexual and romantic relationships, feeling intensely uncomfortable in situations where attention is drawn to my biological sex. I fantasize about surgery I doubt I will ever be able to afford.

 

I'll be going to college within a couple of years and I feel like that is the best opportunity I'll ever get to get a fresh start presentation-wise. I don't think I'll be able to do it, and I don't know if these feelings will last that long. I am mostly just uncertain of what to do with myself right now.

[MoonTiger]

I've kept this thread open in a mobile tab for the last few days, wondering what to say, how to say it without getting too personal, whether voicing my own doubts could inadvertently upset someone else, whether or not to post.

 

I'm trying to figure out where I am right now, and how that relates to what my peers have experienced. I'm disgusted by a lot of what I see in the world, and the resistance to improvement/denial of problems is disheartening. I'm not comfortable associating with either sex--the idea of being tied to those traditional ideals is repulsive. At the same time, I am not sure I want to label myself as non-binary or agender: I worry that creating new categories will only help to reinforce the old.

 

I don't realistically expect to be able to use "they/them" as pronouns in real life. I'd like to ask people in the chats I frequent to refer to me as such, but I don't know how to. I know that no matter what I do, I will always be associated with the gender I was born with.

 

Currently I've been doing my best to transition to a more androgynous appearance. Reluctance to be gendered has led to some good things--eating better, losing weight, exercising regularly--and to some bad things--getting rid of most of my clothes, losing almost all interest in sexual and romantic relationships, feeling intensely uncomfortable in situations where attention is drawn to my biological sex. I fantasize about surgery I doubt I will ever be able to afford.

 

I'll be going to college within a couple of years and I feel like that is the best opportunity I'll ever get to get a fresh start presentation-wise. I don't think I'll be able to do it, and I don't know if these feelings will last that long. I am mostly just uncertain of what to do with myself right now.

I know I'm not exactly the most welcome here as I more or less identify cis and straight but I may have a little nugget that might help.

 

When I was little, I was never big into dolls, princesses, and all that stuff. Sure I played with barbies some but I was just as content with blocks and hot wheels too. Pink was my favorite color but not the bright or hot pink commonly associated with girls. I preferred a more natural pink. Then over time I came to strongly prefer colors like blue, black, and silver. I don't like doing my hair much, not big on "spa" days, or have much interest in other "girlie" activities. I absolutely abhorred the really catty and "popular" girls with the latest trends and fashions. I got along better with boys but they can still be a pain too.

 

Some days I love wearing a nice dress and doing my makeup. Other days I liked wearing jeans and a nerdy t-shirt. I even like going for a neutral or more androgynous look sometimes. I knew I wasn't a girlie girl but all out tomboy didn't fit either. I kinda grappled with it for a little bit until I came to a realization.

 

I don't need a label. I don't need to known as anything other than me. People are so caught up in labeling these days. I find it ironic that the people who are fighting against traditional labels are still just doing the same thing. Labeling. The very people trying to fight their way out of the box are the same people trying to find a box to put themselves into.

 

Don't do that to yourself. You are you! Be loud and proud. You don't go up to someone and introduce yourself by saying "Hi I'm (insert gender)". You introduce yourself with your name! You don't have to associate with a sex per sey. Just associate with you. If you like one style over the other, then just go for it!

 

You say you feel disgusted by a lot of what you see in the world. I am too. But as Ghandi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world' (note: quote is paraphrased).

 

Don't stress over labels. Just be the best you that you can be.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by LoveOfTheMoonChild

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't need a label. I don't need to known as anything other than me. People are so caught up in labeling these days. I find it ironic that the people who are fighting against traditional labels are still just doing the same thing. Labeling. The very people trying to fight their way out of the box are the same people trying to find a box to put themselves into.

 

Don't do that to yourself. You are you! Be loud and proud. You don't go up to someone and introduce yourself by saying "Hi I'm (insert gender)". You introduce yourself with your name! You don't have to associate with a sex per sey. Just associate with you. If you like one style over the other, then just go for it!

<snip>

 

Don't stress over labels. Just be the best you that you can be.

This is a truly brilliant post. THe world needs more LoveOfTheMoonChilds.

 

~Removed; please take it to the general gender discussion thread~ Be you. YOU know who you are, and so do the people that truly matter.

Edited June 23, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[elderberrysyrup]

You know, I always wonder about these threads. I'm glad there are spaces for nonbinary people but I never know if I should be considered a nonbinary person, particularly because I do not see myself as a person due to delusions from mental illness and therefore I do not have a gender. I don't know though. Are nonbinary people who are possibly nonbinary because of illness the same as nonbinary people who are that way as a normal variation of humanity?

[andromedae]

You know, I always wonder about these threads. I'm glad there are spaces for nonbinary people but I never know if I should be considered a nonbinary person, particularly because I do not see myself as a person due to delusions from mental illness and therefore I do not have a gender. I don't know though. Are nonbinary people who are possibly nonbinary because of illness the same as nonbinary people who are that way as a normal variation of humanity?

The way I see it, considering oneself as nonbinary in terms of gender is a natural variation within the concept of personal identity. Although I cannot consider myself as a directly nonbinary individual, I can understand what can lead someone to consider themselves as such to a certain extent. Gender establishes stark contrasts and stereotypes that are very "black and white", so to say. It is a social construct that can confine individuals to a specific set of characteristics and have them not only identify but embody an archetype within itself. There is restricted flexibility in one's own personal identity when society pushes people to adhere to pre-established categories rather than to create their own identities without being forced into pre-existing standards and norms, such as those of the male and female.

[Obscure_Trash]

You know, I always wonder about these threads. I'm glad there are spaces for nonbinary people but I never know if I should be considered a nonbinary person, particularly because I do not see myself as a person due to delusions from mental illness and therefore I do not have a gender. I don't know though. Are nonbinary people who are possibly nonbinary because of illness the same as nonbinary people who are that way as a normal variation of humanity?

I mean, we're not the same, just like I'm not the same as another nonbinary person who experiences gender differently from me, but that doesn't make you any less valid or welcome. =)

[octopi]

The arguments about "labels" have kind of gotten me down lately, to be honest.

 

Like... I've spent a lot of time thinking about my identity, and it's comforting to me to have words and terminology to describe myself with. If I take on a label, that's because that label is important to me. If I tell you about my labels, that's because it's important to me that you know about them. I understand that forcing everyone to choose a label would be bad because some people really do better without them, but the argument is often phrased in such a way that people say "you don't need labels, just be yourself!" to me, when "myself" is a person who appreciates and needs labels very much. It kinda feels like I'm being thrown under the bus in favour of identities that are easier to understand.

 

(Also, holy gatekeeping, batman, but that's an issue I don't even want to talk about here.)

[Sundew]

I feel like it's very easy to dismiss labels without understanding their implications if you are someone who is able to fit into one comfortably. I'm not too fussed about what I call myself but I am still affected when others use the wrong pronouns. The only way to go by different pronouns would be to label myself.

[MoonTiger]

I do understand that labels have their place and carry important implications. I guess my point is not to stress about them too much. People are churning out new labels every day. People are stressing about what box they fit into. I know it's important to feel a sense of belonging and a sense of identity, but don't let a quest for labels take over you and bring you down.

 

 

 

 

[Obscure_Trash]

The arguments about "labels" have kind of gotten me down lately, to be honest.

Agreed. It's fine to tell people that they don't need a label or that they don't have to find a label that fits them or whatever if they're comfortable/happy going without a label, but negative statements towards labels in general do not belong in the safety thread.

 

Not everybody needs to have a label, but just like choosing a label, that is a personal choice.

 

Ex to help clarify.

 

"You should stop using that label because there's no point in labels" = doesn't belong here, but you can take it to the general Gender discussion thread.

 

I do understand that labels have their place and carry important implications. I guess my point is not to stress about them too much. People are churning out new labels every day. People are stressing about what box they fit into. I know it's important to feel a sense of belonging and a sense of identity, but don't let a quest for labels take over you and bring you down.

Now the above quote by LoveOfTheMoonChild is fine. "Labels have their place, but don't let them bring you down if you can't find one or don't connect with one" is a good statement.

Edited June 23, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Obscure_Trash]

I've kept this thread open in a mobile tab for the last few days, wondering what to say, how to say it without getting too personal, whether voicing my own doubts could inadvertently upset someone else, whether or not to post.

 

I'm trying to figure out where I am right now, and how that relates to what my peers have experienced. I'm disgusted by a lot of what I see in the world, and the resistance to improvement/denial of problems is disheartening. I'm not comfortable associating with either sex--the idea of being tied to those traditional ideals is repulsive. At the same time, I am not sure I want to label myself as non-binary or agender: I worry that creating new categories will only help to reinforce the old.

 

I don't realistically expect to be able to use "they/them" as pronouns in real life. I'd like to ask people in the chats I frequent to refer to me as such, but I don't know how to. I know that no matter what I do, I will always be associated with the gender I was born with.

 

Currently I've been doing my best to transition to a more androgynous appearance. Reluctance to be gendered has led to some good things--eating better, losing weight, exercising regularly--and to some bad things--getting rid of most of my clothes, losing almost all interest in sexual and romantic relationships, feeling intensely uncomfortable in situations where attention is drawn to my biological sex. I fantasize about surgery I doubt I will ever be able to afford.

 

I'll be going to college within a couple of years and I feel like that is the best opportunity I'll ever get to get a fresh start presentation-wise. I don't think I'll be able to do it, and I don't know if these feelings will last that long. I am mostly just uncertain of what to do with myself right now.

You had a lot to say, so I wanted to think for a bit on how to reply. Here's some little bits of advice I have based on your post.

 

 

1) Don't fall into the trap of thinking that gender expression = gender in some linear path or even that sexist and transphobic and exorsexist gender roles define gender. I know it's hard to separate these things out due to the way the world is, but just because an idea is out there doesn't mean it's correct. And there are spaces that will understand. People are naturally made up of "masculine", "androgynous", and "feminine" parts, all rolled into one package. Some lean towards dresses and frills and makeup and glitter and high-pitched voices. Some lean towards trucks and overalls and flannel and very low voices. And others are a mixture of those things, maybe all at once, maybe flowing throughout time. Just because the major 'ideal' out there is that women must be stay-at-home mom's who sacrifice career for children and men must distant worker's who sacrifice family for career doesn't mean that's right. It doesn't even mean that most people fall into stereotypical gender roles. Disregard gender roles and just look at gender. Genderfork might be a good way to see different and healthy expressions of gender that don't fall into any traditional ideal or prescribed role.

 

2) I understand why do this, but don't let the state of the world stop you from identifying as you feel, as you want. Maybe the label is a personal one to avoid bigotry. That's perfectly okay. Your safety, physically and emotionally and mentally, is incredibly important. But don't let the world dictate how you label yourself just for yourself. Or, if you are more comfortable just disregarding labels all together, then do that! Just know that the most important aspect to this decision is how you feel. It's political to come out. It's political to be out. It's political to protest. It's even political to go to pride. But privately identifying (or not) one way or another is your personal decision. How you present your identity to the world is political, and that is also your decision to make.

 

3) Well, "nonbinary" and "agender" aren't "new" categories, but honestly, I wouldn't get hung up on this idea of "categories = bad". Categories and labels aren't inherently bad. They are descriptive. And humans pretty naturally like to label things. We like to have words for things. We like to be able to classify things into categories we can break down and understand. We like to use labels to connect with other people and identify similarities and similar interests. Labels aren't ever going to "just go away" because that's not human nature. So it's one thing for you to not want to go by any label for yourself, but it's another to expect that you not going by a label will help break down transphobia/exorsexism/gender roles and lead to a happy, unlabelled life. If you're happy having no label, do that! But don't expect that others will follow suit or even that it will mean you won't face at least a little judgement for your choice to be unlabeled. Existing in a world as Other, whether that be trans/nonbinary or unlabelled, is a radical action because either way, you're considered "not the norm". Basically, my point comes back to, whatever label you do or don't choose to you should come down to what you are personally more comfortable with.

 

4) It's okay to not know! It's okay to be confused! College is a great place to experiment and start over and meet new people who haven't known you as just one way throughout your whole life. If you get to college and still want to experiment, great! Do it! If you get to college and don't still feel this way, great! You'll still know yourself better, and there's no right path to take for how you feel. If you can't make it to college before experimenting more with your looks/name/pronouns, then don't! You don't have to come out to change how you look. And since things are getting really negative for you, I would suggest being more free with experimenting now, as much as you can and are comfortable with. Even if it's finding a name/pronouns that you just call yourself in private, that's a good start! Stand in front of the mirror and introduce yourself to you. Play around with looks and names and pronouns and voices and whatever. You have to take care of yourself, and right now, you need a lot of taking care of. <3

 

Now, as for coming out on chats, just ask! Either bring it up yourself ("hey, guys, I'd like to interrupt a moment and say that I'd really like to go by they/them now, so please use they/them when referring to me") or wait until someone refers to you and correct them ("hey, I just wanted to let you know I'm going by they/them now. I know you didn't know, which is why I'm bringing it up now. Thanks!"). Don't overthink it. And just quickly/firmly correct people when they mess up. A short "they" or "them" when someone messes up will remind them they used the wrong pronouns. If you can, if there's one friend in particular you trust, ask them to help you look out for this and correct the others. Typically, between friendly folks, there's enough people that know the correct way to refer to someone and will either publicly correct or privately approach the person to remind them. You've probably seen me in DC discord correcting for the people I know when they get mislabeled/misgendered. All you can do is ask. Don't overthink it, okay? <3

 

Finally, I just want to say that you don't have to understand your identity or know how to label or even understand how you want to present or what name you want to go by to accept yourself and be kinder to yourself. You don't have to understand your identity to be loved. It's okay to be confused. It's okay to experiment. Please, let yourself doing these things, because stressing yourself out like this is hurting you. Coming to terms with your identity isn't always easy. It isn't always clear. It can hurt. There may be times where you feel negatively and times where you feel really negatively. But there are people out there who have been where you are. There are people out there who understand and will support you. It might be a good idea, if you can find some sort of GSA or something, to attend some meetings and meet some people. And you don't have to be out to do this. But just knowing that you're not alone, finding people who will respect your identity/name/pronouns, it might help a little.

 

<3

 

The only way to go by different pronouns would be to label myself.

 

I know we tend to gender pronouns, but pronouns really don't have to be associated with a specific gender. You can totally ask for whatever pronouns you want without going by a specific label or any label at all.

Edited June 23, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[elderberrysyrup]

I mean, we're not the same, just like I'm not the same as another nonbinary person who experiences gender differently from me, but that doesn't make you any less valid or welcome. =)

Well that's the query I've been thinking about. I don't know if I am valid or if I am giving nonbinary people a bad name because my existence feeds into the stigma that nonbinary people are sick in the head or similar. Specifically, I have schizotypal personality disorder, and illness characterized by strange beliefs, expressions, and perceptional distortions. It is a chronic condition with no cure. It is possible that I am nonbinary because I am sick in the head, and thus I am feeding into the idea that nonbinary people are just not normal or healthy.

 

So I don't really know if my presence here, and my acceptance here, is good for the nonbinary community as a whole. I don't know if that makes sense.

[Obscure_Trash]

Well that's the query I've been thinking about. I don't know if I am valid or if I am giving nonbinary people a bad name because my existence feeds into the stigma that nonbinary people are sick in the head or similar. Specifically, I have schizotypal personality disorder, and illness characterized by strange beliefs, expressions, and perceptional distortions. It is a chronic condition with no cure. It is possible that I am nonbinary because I am sick in the head, and thus I am feeding into the idea that nonbinary people are just not normal or healthy.

 

So I don't really know if my presence here, and my acceptance here, is good for the nonbinary community as a whole. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yes, you made sense, and I understand perfectly where you're coming from! But...

 

Nope, not at all; your existence and identity is not harmful to people's perceptions of being nonbinary. If they're gonna take problem with you, they're gonna take problem with me because they hold harmful and ignorant beliefs. You shouldn't have to hide yourself away in the closet for "the community's" sake.

The problem is when people think things like "being nonbinary in and of itself is a mental disorder and therefore something to be fixed because you're wrong and broken". But you can totally be nonbinary as a result of mental illness or a personality disorder or whatever. That's 100% valid and anybody who tells you that you're not welcome is being bigoted themselves.

 

You can't help who you are or if your identity is all wrapped up and confusing. You just being you isn't harmful to our community. People who paint us all with one brush are harmful to our community. People who would encourage eugenics or erasure for the "sake" of our community are harmful to our community. People who try to dictate how others experience their own identity are harmful to our community.

 

So you're nonbinary and schizotypal? There are ace people who's ace identity is wrapped up in them being autistic, or is wrapped up with medications they take, or is wrapped up as a part of mental illnesses they have, or is wrapped up in past trauma. That doesn't make them any less valid and this doesn't make you any less valid. We need to accept that there are many ways to be. Even if you were harming someone, that wouldn't make your identity invalid - although it would mean you'd be less welcome in safe spaces.

 

So I say you're welcome. <3

[elderberrysyrup]

Yes, you made sense, and I understand perfectly where you're coming from! But...

 

Nope, not at all; your existence and identity is not harmful to people's perceptions of being nonbinary. If they're gonna take problem with you, they're gonna take problem with me because they hold harmful and ignorant beliefs. You shouldn't have to hide yourself away in the closet for "the community's" sake.

The problem is when people think things like "being nonbinary in and of itself is a mental disorder and therefore something to be fixed because you're wrong and broken". But you can totally be nonbinary as a result of mental illness or a personality disorder or whatever. That's 100% valid and anybody who tells you that you're not welcome is being bigoted themselves.

 

You can't help who you are or if your identity is all wrapped up and confusing. You just being you isn't harmful to our community. People who paint us all with one brush are harmful to our community. People who would encourage eugenics or erasure for the "sake" of our community are harmful to our community. People who try to dictate how others experience their own identity are harmful to our community.

 

So you're nonbinary and schizotypal? There are ace people who's ace identity is wrapped up in them being autistic, or is wrapped up with medications they take, or is wrapped up as a part of mental illnesses they have, or is wrapped up in past trauma. That doesn't make them any less valid and this doesn't make you any less valid. We need to accept that there are many ways to be. Even if you were harming someone, that wouldn't make your identity invalid - although it would mean you'd be less welcome in safe spaces.

 

So I say you're welcome. <3

I see. It is surprising to have such an open, well-considered response that engages with multiple levels of this multifaceted issue. Thank you for your wisdom in this community and your eloquence in description. This probably took significant effort on your part and I am grateful thusly.

[Sundew]

@SockPuppet Strangler I'm really sorry not to have responded for so long. Your post was really in-depth and thoughtful and I appreciate it. I can't respond to everything you said individually but I'll try to touch on a few of the things I have specific thoughts on.

For me, the main purpose of labels is to affect people's perception of me. I'd love to be able to opt out of the stereotypes about men and women altogether, but y'know... can't.
After further thought, I think I am comfortable self-identifying as agender. I don't think it's a label I'm going to take outside of this thread, though. I'm more concerned with being referred to with the right pronouns than people knowing the specifics of my identity. I'm going to do my best to present as androgynous, and let people make their own assumptions based on that.

I know agender/non-binary aren't actually new categories, but they are new to a lot of people who just aren't aware of them. It's my impression, at least, that most people don't know about them. I could be wrong. You're right that labels aren't going to go away, and knowing that makes it both easier and harder--discouraging to know I can't get out, but for as long as I'm in, it's okay to choose a label I'm comfortable with. I'm not betraying my biological sex or halting progress. I'm just trying to find a way to be at ease with myself.

The biggest issue with correcting pronouns is that, most of the time, they're mostly just used in passing or in the context of a joke. I would feel so so awkward interrupting a joke with a serious request like that, and I'm worried about backlash. In the places I've addressed the pronouns issue, there have been plenty of people who've responded politely and done their best to comply. But I'm also active in communities that are less open to this stuff. I don't want to constantly correct someone who deliberately gets it wrong, and I'm scared that someone will respond to my request with "but you're a boy/girl" (because I don't correct people online, there are people who think I'm both). If something like that does happen my current plan is to just say something like "it would just make me more comfortable" and hope that most people are open enough that it will not be an issue to have one or two people against it.

There is a GSA group in my school. It's summer now, but joining next year is definitely an option. I have had a class with the group's supervisor and she's definitely someone I'd be comfortable with.

I don't know if I want any of this known in real life, but online, it's important to me. I like the anonymity, and the flexibility in ways to present here, and it's not unreasonable for me to not want to be pigeon-holed as male or female in one of the only places where there are other options.

[Phony]

My gender is pretty fluid, but I'm not actually out to anybody. I don't really mind if people call me by birth pronoun(?), though I'd rather that others know the existence and the concept of nonbinary-ism(?).... I kind of wish I could come out, but if pronouns don't bother me then really, what's the point? I think I might be too caught up in how much I perceive that other people will care, though. For those that want to know, I go by they/them pronouns; but honestly, anything is fine!

 

I feel annoyed that I'm kind of "jumping onto the genderfluid fad" though. It's like I'm suddenly unoriginal, even though I've been feeling as different genders since elementary school.