I want to gift more holidays!

[Fuzzbucket]

First of all, I think your base premise is flawed. It's not really possible to make suggestions to fix a suggestion that is based on an untenable base idea.

Thanks for putting into words what I had so far failed to express. This is the crux of the whole thing.

 

Edited for typefail...

Edited August 16, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

Actually, no, you can't always build a great idea. Especially not out of a less great one.

 

Sometimes, you just have to accept that an idea has too many flaws to be viable, and that there isn't a way to necessarily fix them to bring it up to acceptable levels. It happens--not every problem has a solution, and not every problem that has a solution is considered good (since sometimes the solution is worse than the problem).

 

I cannot see a way to remove this from being a trading loophole, other than to have it not be possible. Even if you have a mechanic to block an egg from returning to the scroll it originated on, you have people who will "gift" an egg to a person and then will accept a one-way transfer from that person, thus making it effectively a trade done through 2 one-way transfers. You cannot prevent that if you allow this. Unless you disallowed the accepting of one-way transfers from a scroll that had just gifted an egg to the person sending the transfer.

 

But then people will just use a trade and use a dummy egg in place of a transfer.

 

And if you block all trades/transfers between scrolls where one has gifted to the other, then you are running the risk of blocking legitimate acts of gifting or trading.

[cyradis4]

First of all, I think your base premise is flawed. It's not really possible to make suggestions to fix a suggestion that is based on an untenable base idea. That is something that is completely different than problems posed to school children, because the very nature of school is as a vehicle for learning, so the base suggestion would have to have merit in its own right.

 

So, to put it bluntly, this idea is inherently flawed. There isn't any practical way to get around the problem of abuse of the idea. Your reason to suggest it is good - more gifting. But the majority of those who would use it wouldn't use it to gift more, they'd use it for trades. Or multi-scrolling, which is worse. Those issues have already been explained enough.

This.

 

C4.

[RainDear]

If you go to the AP to hunt for holiday eggs - you are able to choose which eggs you hunt and which eggs you keep based on egg type, lineage, etc. You can control what you get and get what you want. If you set up a trade or gift for an egg from someone on the forums - again you are able to choose which egg you want to ask for or receive based on egg type, lineage, etc. If there is a mechanic for randomly gifting eggs - you can't choose which eggs you are offered. Even if the basic idea isn't abused for the problems others have mentioned, you have a very big chance of many/most randomly gifted eggs being refused due to not being the breed, lineage, etc. a random user may desire.

 

Why not just allow the eggs to go to the AP where someone who is looking for that type egg can find/catch them?

[AnanoKimi]

I love gifting suggestions, though most consist of a loop hole.The problem is people point out the loophole say "Nope loop hole, so nope." and leave it at that. Rather than saying 'no because there is a loophole' those who can think of something should say 'Ok so theres this loop hole, maybe it can be counteracted in this and this way' rather than shutting it down. If you cannot find a way to improve on it and dislike it entirely, then a simple "I don't like it" means nothing. If you don't like it, explain why.

 

It is like art. Either constructively improve it, or explain as detailed as possible why you do not like said piece or concept in the piece. Or why you do not like the color choice or the pose. Do not simply say "Its ugly, I don't like it."

 

The problem with pure AP drops is that some of us do not have lightning fingers nor lightning connections. I've seen hollies and other nice holiday dragons in the AP and have missed out on 99% of them because I load too slow and click slower. So not "All eggs to the AP" is not a suggestion that works for everyone. As much as the AP is used, not all of us have the luxury of being able to click especially when AP stalkers and multi accounters are there taking everything rare they can grab. Its an uneven competition such as with catching rares in the caves.

 

Gifting doesn't have to be purely for your sake. It is simply to expand the blood and give newbies a chance as you all seem to want. That being said I saw many good points in this post about the pros and cons.

 

Original suggestion about control over more than one egg to send as you please:

 

Pros

-Gifting to friends is easier

-You still get to keep an egg

-You still get the option to AP

 

Cons

-Multi accounters can moves eggs around as they see fit.

-Not all eggs will be gifted and may be used as trade fodder

-Gifted eggs may be returned to the original breeder so they can hoard as they like.

 

Now with the suggestions Edward and Herk added the loop hole can be fixed. Rather than say 3 eggs, one is yours, one is ap, one you trade; it could be instead:

 

1 egg - Yours

2 eggs - 1 yours 1 random gift

3 eggs - 1 is yours 2 random gift

4 eggs - 1 is yours 3 random gift

 

A user must have been active within lets say the week before the breeding event and all inactive users won't receive said random gift. Eggs that are rejected are sent to the AP immediately and maybe lessen the waiting time to 12 hrs before an egg goes to the AP. And if you want to gift an egg to a friend you control 1 out of every clutch which you can keep or gift. Obviously if someone is egg locked then the one egg they would keep automatically goes to the AP. The hoarding loop hole is broken since users will only control one egg out of every clutch, the rest will randomly be sent out. Better yet you can be given the option to randomly gift eggs or AP them so you could lets say gift one egg and AP another while still keeping yours. That way for those who would much rather AP than gift, you aren't forced to gift.

 

Criticism is appreciated. No's are not. Do your best to explain your no. If you simply dislike my version of the suggestion and cannot find a way to express why, then please refrain from posting. You are entitled to an opinion but a place of suggestion just like with art is to be treated like something that can be improved and if unable to improve it to explain why it is bad and cannot be fixed.

[KageSora]

Yeah... You don't really get the power to say "refrain from posting if it's just no". Just as you have the ability to post, we have the right to say "No, I don't like it" and not give you a detailed reason for why we don't. Additionally, people are fully entitled to say "no, I don't like it" about art without giving actual criticism. Just because a person cannot offer constructive criticism, or perhaps cannot find a way to explain why something bothers them, does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to express that they don't like it. Unless you are also of the mind that nobody should be saying "Yes, I like it" without backing it up and also giving criticism to help improve it.

 

 

I don't like your suggestion. At all. Not really better than the current one, it has other problems IMO. If you can't have ANY control over who the extra eggs go to, then you might as well dump them in the AP. They can just as easily end up on the scroll of somebody who already has several of them as they can somebody who can't manage to catch any at all.

 

Not to mention it sort of defeats the purpose of being able to gift to more than one person of your choosing if the gifts MUST go out to random people. At least the first suggestion gave you the option of gifting two of them to people who were on your list for offspring or something.

 

Additionally, as has been pointed out, I foresee a decent number of them ending up on the AP anyway due to being rejected or dumped later when a better lineage came along due to the fact that people won't have any real control over what lineages they're offered via the gifts.

 

Also, you don't mention it, but I would have to stress that this would have to be optional. Nobody, in any way, should be forced to gift some of their eggs instead of dropping them to the AP.

 

Furthermore, anything that would allow you to prevent 100% of the clutch from going to the AP directly from your scroll gets an automatic no from me. I'd rather you control up to 2 eggs than having all 4 be accounted for. Even if a number of them will end up dumped to the AP for being the wrong sort of lineage or whatever, it still reduces the number of eggs going to the AP by a significant amount for any user that made use of this feature.

 

Especially as, then, I would imagine the ones that would end up on the AP would more likely be ones with undesirable lineages, because ones with "good" lineages would be kept either for their own use or for trade fodder for a lineage they preferred.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KageSora

[_Sin_]

The basic issue is that, on the worst case scenario, this could be abused: i.e. the "gifter" IOU-trades during the year and "gifts" the relative egg during the holidays season. No way to track that, to the best of my knowledge. On the most benign cases, the eggs are gifted to the small subset of players that use the forum and IRC, or just the even smaller subset of the friends of the "gifter." Random gifts are already accomplished by the AP. And I didn't read or can think of any suggestion that would mitigate the issue so, I'm sorry, but I can't support either.

 

[CNR4806]

Sorry but I'll join the no crowd, no matter how much you hate the word.

 

The potential for abuse should be pretty obvious. "Gift" the eggs that "you can't keep" and have them teleported right back isn't that hard to arrange, and definitely leagues easier than having catchers watch the AP and compete with hundreds of other people for you.

 

Besides, did you mention gifting? Sending stuff into the AP is pretty much blind-gifting. You don't have control over where they go to but they're pretty much gifts for the people who caught them. It's the reason that many people intentionally AP rares.

[skauble]

My problem with targeted gifting (as in giving an egg to a specific user) is that it's one more way that being connected, good at networking, or on the forum gets people ahead. There's already so much of an advantage in those things that increasing it can make it even harder for people who play a more solitary game, don't speak English, don't have time for the forum, etc.

 

As for gifting to random players, I thought that breeding eggs and knowing that extras would go to the AP was considered random gifting.

 

When a person breeds a holiday dragon they know that there could be a multi-clutch. They know that every egg but one will go to the AP. They know that, in the AP, those eggs will be picked up by random users who really want those eggs and are appreciative to the people that bred them.

 

I may be missing something, but aren't multi-clutching and auto-abandon of eggs set up specifically as a method of sharing/random gifting?

 

I don't mean to be negative, because I think that the suggestion is interesting, it's just that I think that the way things are set up right now (multi-clutched and auto-abandon) is actually a really good system that allows people to share eggs with other players who we know for sure want to get them because they're in the AP hunting for them.

 

I will add though, for whatever encouragement it's worth, that with people being able to collect as many bred Holidays as they can, TJ might consider allowing players to gift an extra egg because competition for them in the AP has increased. But other people have raised legitimate concerns about where those gifted eggs will end up that means that it might not help those who are struggling to get eggs in the AP at all.

 

I'm editing here to add the following:

 

1. Regarding the concern of people gifting eggs to a friend so that their friend can send it back and then the person can keep two of their own eggs - TJ made a way that you couldn't get your own repulsed Vampire eggs back, and there's a way to prevent people from picking up their own eggs in the AP until someone else does first.

 

So there's probably a take on those things that could be used to keep people from keeping more than one of their own bred eggs. However, I don't know how difficult it would be to let people keep one egg of a multi-clutch and then not let the others come back to their scroll.

 

2. Maybe if the idea was adjusted so that you could only gift to someone who doesn't have that type of dragon (like gifting a Holly to someone who has none).

 

That would help people who have none get some despite the increasing competition in the AP, and it would cut down, some, on people using the process to trade. It won't eliminate it, of course, and there are a lot of people who would release messy Holllies they have to get a 2nd gen, but it might make it occur at a somewhat lower rate, especially if the eggs were non-transferable once they were accepted.

Edited August 16, 2014 by skauble

[danicast]

I read all your "problems" with the suggestion. I still need more suggestions that address these "problems". Any ideas? They are welcome.

[skauble]

I read all your "problems" with the suggestion. I still need more suggestions that address these "problems". Any ideas? They are welcome.

The thing is that, for me personally, all of the issues I brought up are solved with our current system of gifting via the AP.

 

That's not meant to discourage anyone else from coming up with various ideas. Sometimes people can see a problem for which they can't also see a corresponding solution. These discussion threads are great because there's no time limit on them so as long as they're open some folks may point out issues and other folks may come along with answers. But those aren't always going to be the same people.

 

Having said that, here's the best suggestion I have to make this work - Just straight up suggest that we should be able to keep an egg and transfer an egg, no other limitations or things going random places.

 

Will some people use the extra egg to trade? Yes, absolutely. But I've bred lots of holiday dragons where I haven't gotten the maximum of 4 eggs, so if TJ doesn't think that enough eggs are going to the AP and that there's a greater demand, I would assume that he could raise the success of breeding and the eggs produced so that more dragons hit the 4 egg mark.

 

I think that it's wonderful that you want the extra egg for gifting, but some people won't want to gift the extra and trying to figure out a way that no one gets to use it for anything else is probably going to consume the majority of the thread and end up with an incredibly complex list of "fixes". Now that the limits on bred holidays are gone, an argument can certainly be made that more people will want to keep an egg they breed and so there will be less gifting, so allowing people to put it in a one way transfer and send it off will increase gifting even if it also increases trading.

 

I'm still not sure I would support that as better than the system we have now, but it's straightforward and if you remove the part where it has to be a completely altruistic system then you don't have to come up with a way for people not to trade with it.

[Fiona]

The base of your suggestion is that we be able to control the destiny of more than one egg in a clutch, which is something that came up back when all our dragons multi-clutched and again when teleport was being proposed. The whole reason we can only control one egg from a clutch was discussed exhaustively then, and the overwhelming consensus was that only controlling one egg was put in place for a reason and there wasn't sufficient justification for changing it.

 

Since then the way holiday eggs are handled has changed, so that we're able to collect more than two of each one, as long as the extras are bred. That actually puts more pressure on the people depending on grabbing them from the ap though, not less. That's the whole reason that was given for why we're only able to control the fate of one egg - to spread them around. If you can control the fate of more than one egg the people who can get the nice ones shrinks hugely. People who don't use the forum are already at a great disadvantage. The "haves" - those who have the scroll resources to trade for the really desirable things, would soak up even more of the best eggs, while the "have nots" who already have to settle for less, would have even less available that they could afford.

 

 

--- and there was more I had in mind regarding this suggestion, but I got interrupted and now I can't remember... If I think of it later I'll post again.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire

[olympe]

Personally, I don't really like this. Because it will soon evolve from mere gifting to trading lots of very special holiday eggs. I mean, what do you think a snow angel sibling of this gold would fetch? There are only two people who're breeding this particular kind of lineage in all of DC, as far as I know. And I'm one of them. I'd sure love to keep one egg and trade away two more.

 

Even if we could only put these extra eggs into a one-way teleport, these eggs could still be traded. We all know that.

 

Also, if the rule change proposed here had been in effect, I'd never have been able to trade for the mommy. She was a very lucky AP catch, the best luck I've ever had in a good 4 years of playing DC. Don't take these chances away from players. Because, even though gifts are greatly appreciated, they're not nearly as satisfying as being able to get something yourself.

[JavaTigress]

Personally, I don't really like this. Because it will soon evolve from mere gifting to trading lots of very special holiday eggs. I mean, what do you think a snow angel sibling of this gold would fetch? There are only two people who're breeding this particular kind of lineage in all of DC, as far as I know. And I'm one of them. I'd sure love to keep one egg and trade away two more.

 

Even if we could only put these extra eggs into a one-way teleport, these eggs could still be traded. We all know that.

 

Also, if the rule change proposed here had been in effect, I'd never have been able to trade for the mommy. She was a very lucky AP catch, the best luck I've ever had in a good 4 years of playing DC. Don't take these chances away from players. Because, even though gifts are greatly appreciated, they're not nearly as satisfying as being able to get something yourself.

Oh, my that is a pretty lineage. You are right that that... could fetch a pretty fair price if it were up for trade. Specially if someone had a gold similar tpo that one that needed a mate.

[AnanoKimi]

I read all your "problems" with the suggestion. I still need more suggestions that address these "problems". Any ideas? They are welcome.

Sometimes problems cannot be fixed and thus why certain problems are put to light. There are things that must be accounted for as unfixable and simply must remain part of the suggestion since further improvement on them is not possible.

 

Optional would be best, and maybe both an option to participate entirely and an option to not recieve gifts.

 

The problem with AP is that like with the cave, when something desireable is out there, those of us with not so fast trigger fingers and non lightning fast internect connections never get a chance to catch the egg, check its lineage or such, and toss it back if we dont like it. Its a "You grab what you can get and if you don't like it tough because the chance of getting another is gonna mean staring at your laptop for the next hour or more trying to be fast enough to get one."

 

Its an uneven competition for many. Controlling more than one egg out of your clutch gives the potential for hoarding and trade fodder so it serves to allow the cheaters to cheat more and get ahead of those of us who have to refresh for the next hour and a half at the AP in the tiny bare visible microscopic hope of maybe, possibly, in God knows how many refreshes and missed clicks we can get a nice holiday or a holiday at all.

 

Yes rejected gifts may go to the AP either way but it allow players the ability to look through what is gifted at them, pick what they like and reject the rest like all those lightning clickers do in the AP. Its the slow clickers Handicapped AP in a sense.

 

Yes it may be thrilling to make a lucky catch in the AP but most of the time is dissapointment, frustration, and simply giving up and settling for the fact that unless you are very popular on the forums, have decent stuff to trade for, or some of your friends play this game, you are stuck with your own bred dragons and the inbred train just made a stop at your door.

 

It feels a bit insensitive for people to say "Just dunp'em in the AP anyways" like you guys don't realize how hard it is for some people to get anything in the AP that is decent. Its the same insensitivity towards lineages. Saying "Their not a part of this game its a user only thing" Is really insensitive and you don't seem to realize how much lineage creation has become part of the game whether you acknowledge it or not. Really take the whole into account, not everyone can click as easily or as quickly in the AP during holidays. I'm lucky if I even get 1 ut of the AP during that time and during the whole week of breeding. And I do mean the whole week. Its about giving people a chance to get something nice without having them sit there, ruin their eye sight, and making them refresh every chance they get in the hopes that "Maybe in this refresh I'll finally get an egg."

[olympe]

You also have to acknowledge that, if you hover over the 2nd or even 3rd (4th, 5th...) spot from the top left corner, you're more likely to catch something *if* something does turn up there. That's how I've been able to manage - despite being less than lucky most of the time.

 

However, it's much more likely for an egg to actually turn up there *if* multi-clutches go straight to the AP (with the exception of the one egg a breeder may keep) - instead of just one egg. So, the more eggs there are in the AP, the better your chances of actually getting something.

[RainDear]

If you are on the forums, you always have the option of requesting bred eggs from the many members who gift. I have received more such requests this year than most and before anyone says "you must be known on the forums to receive such gifts" most of those on my lists were unknown to me before I received their pms requesting gifts. Non-forum members do not have this option. It pleases me to know that those who can't request such gifts from me can find them in the AP. Those who want to make requests can and I will do my best to fulfill their requests.

[AnanoKimi]

I've tried that. My page loads weird when there is a lot of traffic so by the time The page loads in a way I can click, its gone. and even when it loads correctly the first time, the amount of refreshes that have to happen eventually mean it goes wonky. For holidays I normally settlt for checking all the other eggs in the AP rather than holidays and gifting cute lineages and such from there since people start dumping out eggs for space for the holidays. I barely get any holiday eggs from the AP because they go so fast.

 

That's why I mentioned an option to opt in entirely or at least the option to AP all eggs rather than gift them as well. You don't have to random gift all your eggs. Maybe like with teleport, you get a set of boxes and you choose AP or Random gift. That way if you want to AP all your eggs you can and if I want to random gift all of mine I can.

[dothefreddy]

No sir, I don't like it.

[irercha]

Now with the suggestions Edward and Herk added the loop hole can be fixed. Rather than say 3 eggs, one is yours, one is ap, one you trade; it could be instead:

 

1 egg - Yours

2 eggs - 1 yours 1 random gift

3 eggs - 1 is yours 2 random gift

4 eggs - 1 is yours 3 random gift

 

A user must have been active within lets say the week before the breeding event  and all inactive users won't receive said random gift. Eggs that are rejected are sent to the AP immediately and maybe lessen the waiting time to 12 hrs before an egg goes to the AP. And if you want to gift an egg to a friend you control 1 out of every clutch which you can keep or gift. Obviously if someone is egg locked then the one egg they would keep automatically goes to the AP. The hoarding loop hole is broken since users will only control one egg out of every clutch, the rest will randomly be sent out. Better yet you can be given the option to randomly gift eggs or AP them so you could lets say gift one egg and AP another while still keeping yours. That way for those who would much rather AP than gift, you aren't forced to gift.

Personally, I like 12 hrs part, because it gives a chance to people in different time zones to get something nice if the gift is not picked up. I always admire those who manage to grab 2nd gens from holiday alts from ap and those seem to be bred when I sleep

[olympe]

Your chances to catch something are still greater if there's more being dumped in the AP.

[KageSora]

I read all your "problems" with the suggestion. I still need more suggestions that address these "problems". Any ideas? They are welcome.

I like how you use quotes, thus implying that these aren't actually "problems".

 

You're also assuming that there is a solution to the problem that won't make the suggestion even less likely to be implemented. If we try to solve it in too complex and roundabout of a way, that would decrease the chances since everything I've seen indicates TJ favors simple fixes where possible.

 

The basic issue that I have with your suggestion is the ability to control more than one egg in a clutch. There is literally no solution to that except to leave it as we have it now.

 

 

Re: AP catching is unfair:

 

I don't think this is really going to fix things for everybody. First of all, with the number of players and all means that it's highly likely that somebody will get nothing--either through no eggs offered to them, or any offers timing out before they can get online.

 

Second of all, I would imagine the eggs rejected would more often than not also be the longer-lined, messier, and/or inbred lines. Which means more of them going to the AP than the pretty-lined ones. Which means that the people who aren't able to obtain anything they want through gifting have even less chance to obtain it through the AP than they do now.

[Leidarendi]

I vote no. I'm satisfied with the current system as is.

[Fiona]

Yes rejected gifts may go to the AP either way but it allow players the ability to look through what is gifted at them, pick what they like and reject the rest like all those lightning clickers do in the AP.

This implies that you are expecting everyone to get an assortment of holiday eggs offered as gifts, but realistically, most people will only get one if they get any. Especially people who are not on the forum will not get any. The vast majority of people who would use this to control a 2nd egg would send them to their buddies/family members. The rest would be spread out so thin that even if totally random your chances of getting offered one would be slim. And for many reasons I'm opposed to the random thing. I don't want someone else's randomly lineaged eggs. I want the specific lineages I am looking for. I get those by breeding my own, swapping with friends or getting lucky in the ap.

 

I can completely sympathize with people who have a hard time catching anything in the ap. I tried all last Christmas for a nicely lineaged Holly and didn't manage to catch even a messy one. However, I just don't think this suggestion is the solution for that.

[AnanoKimi]

This implies that you are expecting everyone to get an assortment of holiday eggs offered as gifts, but realistically, most people will only get one if they get any. Especially people who are not on the forum will not get any. The vast majority of people who would use this to control a 2nd egg would send them to their buddies/family members. The rest would be spread out so thin that even if totally random your chances of getting offered one would be slim. And for many reasons I'm opposed to the random thing. I don't want someone else's randomly lineaged eggs. I want the specific lineages I am looking for. I get those by breeding my own, swapping with friends or getting lucky in the ap.

 

I can completely sympathize with people who have a hard time catching anything in the ap. I tried all last Christmas for a nicely lineaged Holly and didn't manage to catch even a messy one. However, I just don't think this suggestion is the solution for that.

The problem you state is only if people have control over more than one egg. If you look at the method I posted where there is no control and all eggs are gifted randomly then anyone and possibly everyone will get a small assortment of eggs. all eggs not accepted will get thrown in the AP any random user being gifted with a full scroll will have no option but to auto AP what they get.

 

I do not support the original idea of keeping one, controlling another and aping any extras. I support a method where you get an option to throw an egg into the air for it to randomly land on some random persons door step and/or throw them all in the AP as you see fit whilst still only keeping one egg out of eery clutch.

Edited August 16, 2014 by AnanoKimi