Cave Blockers and ways to deal with them

[olympe]

The 'mad dash' for rares as you call it could be solved by having MORE THAN ONE drop time per hour. Instead of JUST at the top of the hour, you have multiple drops...every 10 mins would be nice.

 

Plus you add MORE eggs.. instead of 3 in a biome, remove the egg text, show the actual egg and rearrange the layout to have 9 eggs... or 12 eggs... or even 20 eggs. Shuffle the eggs like the AP so you can't hover over the same spot, and like the AP you might not always ID every egg on every refresh, so more folk have a chance at getting that good egg that shows up out of nowhere.

This sounds like a very interesting solution. Besides, clicking speed will be reduced to something more sensible becaue people will need time to scan each egg if all 20 (or 30?) eggs get shuffled with every refresh.

 

Although, truth to be told, I'm not 100% sure about exchanging the egg description for the sprite. I think that some people might prefer the written description for various reasons. (Maybe make it optional? /shot) Also, there is the issue of color morphs, like with ridgewings and dorsals - not to mention some of the same description eggs which also drop in the same biomes (pinks and flamingos, horses and ochredrakes).

 

 

 

The biggest problem with ratios is that somewhere there is an arbitrary number saying the system has to have this many of that before it can produce one of those. Currently those ratios are totally whacked because too many unwanted eggs are being produced.. and with every unwanted egg produced the ratios get more whacked and more broken.

 

And as much as most of us LOVE all the new releases, they may be adding to the problem. Will the new breed wind up being a blocker breed or super popular? Unless TJ figures out some way to adjust the ratios based on popularity, the problem will just get worse.

Some of us have been saying this for years, and so far, we're being proven right. Remember, you're not alone in saying that the ratios are broken. I know I've proposed a potential system of self-adjusting ratios back in 2011 somewhere. Let me find my notes and edit them a little since DC has grown considerably since then:

 

This is meant for the ratios of commons towards other commons only! It will not affect the ratios of rares or uncommons at all! Yes, rares will stay rare, as they are rare for a reason (even if, after almost 4 years of playing, I still don't know what it is).

 

Let's start with an assumed common:common ratio of 100 : 100 (for each and every common breed there is). Now, there are two guardians sitting in the alpine biome for a minute. After the minute is up, the two guardian eggs get taken to the AP, and the ratio of guardians towards all other common breeds gets adjusted to 99 guardians to 100 of all others. Now, there are two neotropicals sitting (and sitting and sitting...) in the jungle, an the ratios get adjusted to 99 guardians and neos to 100 of all other commons while the two blockers get taken away.

 

Easy, right? But there is one catch. If things work that way, the ratios will get skewed sooner or later because they cannot be raised any more. So, we need to adjust upwards, too. Since there are XX common breeds, I'd say that, whenever the ratios have been adjusted XX times, all ratios get 1 added to them.

 

So, if all XX adjustments happened to the regular cave blockers (neos, canopies, guardians, nocturnes, stones, pebbles, balloons, water walkers), their ratios will have been lowered by several points each, while all other common breeds would have their ratios increased by one. (Note that the overall ratio of commons would still be the same!)

 

This should be simple enough to code, it's obviously effective, self-adjusting and caters to the players' demands. So what's not to like?

 

(Coding would say something like this (in computerese):

1) If new egg goes to a biome, check if it is of the same breed as another other eggs there. If not, drop the egg there.

2) If there are two eggs of the same breed, continue as detailed below:

- take both eggs of breed X to wilderness

- lower ratio of breed X by one

- set counter +1 (for counting the number of adjustments)

- if the counter has reached XX (number of common breeds), increase all common ratios by one and set the counter to 0.)

 

Of course, this needs another little adjustment for new releases. Maybe have them count as another group (super-commons) for a day up to a week, then put them in with the regular common breeds (with a starting ratio of 100) to have them adjusted according to the players' preference. This way we ensure that new drops don't get mixed in too quickly. Or they'll get mixed in from the start, but only very, very moderately.

 

Regarding breeding: Just use set breeding ratios that are independent from the cave ratios. If you breed a common to whatever, you have a 40% chance of it breeding true.

If you breed an uncommon, you have a 15% chance of it breeding true. For rares, it would be 5% Holidays are a special case, however. Their breeding ratio would be 0% most of the time.

 

So, in order (for the code) to discern the result of a breeding, all it would have to do is add up both percentages (%father, %mother) and get a random number between 1 and 100 to see what happens (after a refusal has been ruled out).

Success: Randon number is no higher than the sum of mother's and father's breeding ratio (see above). Kind of egg: If the generated random number is no higher than the father's success rate, the egg will be of the same kind as the father. Otherwise, it will be of the same kind as the mother. (You'd need some other mechanism if the result can be an alternate breed (geode), a hybrid (bluna...) or a throwback (spitfire from UV). This could be solved by a 2nd random number being generated to discern the chance of one of these alternate breeds occurring.)

No egg produced: The random number is higher than the sum of both parents' breeding ratio.

Edited August 22, 2013 by olympe

[Syphoneira]

While having more proper Drops sounds good, I would just like to mention that shuffling egg placement so that people can't hover over one spot knocks out any faint chance that slower people had of snagging anything decent, limiting virtually all hope of any desirable eggs to the fastest players, especially if more eggs over a larger area, as was also suggested, were involved.

 

In the AP, slower people might potentially get lucky if their cursor is on a desirable egg, but usually not, as slower refreshes mean that they almost certainly wouldn't see in in time, and eggs any distance away would likely be gone long before before they got half-way there...

[purplehaze]

Plus you add MORE eggs.. instead of 3 in a biome, remove the egg text, show the actual egg and rearrange the layout to have 9 eggs... or 12 eggs... or even 20 eggs. Shuffle the eggs like the AP so you can't hover over the same spot, and like the AP you might not always ID every egg on every refresh, so more folk have a chance at getting that good egg that shows up out of nowhere.

I am sorry, but I find this idea totally unacceptable if you are suggesting what it sounds like to me. You are asking for the cave to be made like the AP. As one who has trouble catching anything good in the cave, but is totally unable to get to anything good in the AP before someone else nabs it, I think I would have to throw up my hands and quit if this were to happen. I would lose all hope of ever catching anything that I wanted. At least now, knowing where the next new egg will pop up, I have some hope of recognizing its description and being fast enough on the click to capture it -- once in maybe 500 tries!

[love_HP]

One thing that I'm curious about: Do only frozen hatchlings and adults count towards the ratios, or eggs do too until they are killed/vamped?

[olympe]

As far as I know - which isn't all that far, to be honest - all adults and frozen hatchlings that are no more than 1 year old count towards the ratios.

 

However, this does not even begin to explain how new releases and the mixing in of old breeds work, so I guess that's not all there is to know.

[Syphoneira]

As far as I know - which isn't all that far, to be honest - all adults and frozen hatchlings that are no more than 1 year old count towards the ratios.

 

However, this does not even begin to explain how new releases and the mixing in of old breeds work, so I guess that's not all there is to know.

 

 

All I seem to remember about that was TJ responding to those who could catch quickly and didn't want many of the New Releases by resetting things so that rather than having lots of new eggs after Releases while their ratios built up and even slower catchers had a chance to load up on them (at that point, following a Release where the Cave admittedly was drowning in the new eggs for weeks) by changing the way that the Sacred Ratios worked in such cases.

 

Unfortunately, this goes too far in the wrong direction in most cases, especially where uncommons are concerned.

[olympe]

 

All I seem to remember about that was TJ responding to those who could catch quickly and didn't want many of the New Releases by resetting things so that rather than having lots of new eggs after Releases while their ratios built up and even slower catchers had a chance to load up on them (at that point, following a Release where the Cave admittedly was drowning in the new eggs for weeks) by changing the way that the Sacred Ratios worked in such cases.

 

Unfortunately, this goes too far in the wrong direction in most cases, especially where uncommons are concerned.

Bold by me. Midwinter Madness. Was it four weeks or rather six weeks where we couldn't seem to find anything but canopies, nocturnes and electrics, with other commons dropping about as often as rares do?

 

But you're right, this does go too far in the other direction.

[Wookieinmashoo]

Though I would personally love for the biomes to act like the AP, it would probably do more harm than good.

 

I have also noticed less people hunting the biomes than ever before. Before biomes there were at least around 90 people on the main page at all times. Now we only see those numbers at the top of the hour. I think it was just too early for the biomes, but they're here now. I have always supported the migration idea for the species, but I also don't think the ratios are working anymore. It was great for an early site, but since most of the players have all they want of the older breeds, they just sit there. Newer players have no trouble getting most of the older dragons because no one else wants them and since those breeds are so easy to get, the new players are in turn competing with the older players for the hard to get or new releases.

 

I was thinking the ratios might work if it only included growing things, such as eggs or hatchlings, ten again if someone wanted to see fewer of a certain breed in the cave, all they would have to do is breed a bunch of dragons to dump on the AP, though I doubt such few numbeers would do much of anything. Ratio checks more often would also help. Daily would be ideal, but weekly could work too. Considering the behavior of the droughts and breeding frenzies, it seems like there's only a check every 6 or 4 months.

[olympe]

I have to disagree. I don't think that a fixed ratio system works at all for a site like DC, at least not indefinitely. We have so many breeds to choose from that getting any breed that isn't one of the worst blockers at the moment is hard. Even if it's commons like storms, waters or original pygmies.

 

I think this is so because of the sheer number of breeds we have in the cave. According to the dragon cave wiki, we have over 70 permanent common breeds in the cave at all times. (Counting seasonals, glory drakes and sunsets/sunrises as one and hybrids/color morphs not at all.) Add 15 rare/uncommon breeds to that list that drop in the cave. Now imagine going for one special breed - one that doesn't typically clog the cave.

 

The other problem is that of desirability. Older players have all the older commons they want, and then some. Which makes the demand on older breeds very low indeed (unless they have a special feature like alts or a great BSA). Newer players soon notice that some breeds are available in abundance, while others aren't. Which will lead to a similar problem as we had with the frills. They were everyhwere, and even frill-lovers didn't pick them up because they (falsely) assumed that they could easily get them later.

 

No matter how we look at things, what DC needs is a system to carter more to demand and less to fixed ratios. At least where commons are concerned.

[pinkgothic]

I have also noticed less people hunting the biomes than ever before. Before biomes there were at least around 90 people on the main page at all times. Now we only see those numbers at the top of the hour.

 

Keep in mind that cave used to block before (and for a while after) the biomes were introduced. In other words, before biomes, there was only top of the hour as a reliable hunting spot; the fact you're still seeing those numbers at the top of the hour, coupled with that there are definitely still people hunting during the other times, as well, may actually imply more people are hunting / over a greater timespan than before.

 

So the numbers probably haven't actually gone down; they might even have gone up, they're just more spread out.

 

(Note: I do just mean this as an observation about the numbers, not about the system, or about your ratio idea.)

Edited August 23, 2013 by pinkgothic

[olympe]

I doubt it. Sure, the cave is open 24/7 now. But it's usually full of blockers most of the time unless the eggs go quickly. Which only happens at the top of the hour or close to a new release in the affected biome(s). Considering this, if you really want to hunt for something you deem special, when do you go hunting?

[pinkgothic]

Considering this, if you really want to hunt for something you deem special, when do you go hunting?

 

I hunt almost exclusively around the half hour mark, actually. That's how I've gotten most of my self-caught CB metallics.

Edited August 23, 2013 by pinkgothic

[Wookieinmashoo]

I have to disagree. I don't think that a fixed ratio system works at all for a site like DC, at least not indefinitely. We have so many breeds to choose from that getting any breed that isn't one of the worst blockers at the moment is hard. Even if it's commons like storms, waters or original pygmies.

What do you mean "fixed ratio"? If you are referring to actual numbers for each breed, no matter what, I don't remember seeing anyone mention x number of a certain dragon breed per a drop lately.

 

The only thing I mentioned was to have the ratios only count growing things on the site. The problem with that though is that the ratio between rares and commons might become skewed, but they already are in a constant flux, so nothing much would change there.

[Bodecia]

I have skimmed but not read through the entire thread, and I do not know anything about coding, so I am not sure if this has been suggested or is even possible, but....

 

What if the rows had diversely timed eggs? This would allow more variety, I think. Maybe the first 2 rows are under 4 days, the next under 5 days, the following under 6 days, and then 7 days. It seems this would allow for quicker reduction of overall AP eggs by allowing people more selection as it were, instead of repeating rows and rows of only low time eggs already picked over.

[olympe]

What do you mean "fixed ratio"? If you are referring to actual numbers for each breed, no matter what, I don't remember seeing anyone mention x number of a certain dragon breed per a drop lately.

 

The only thing I mentioned was to have the ratios only count growing things on the site. The problem with that though is that the ratio between rares and commons might become skewed, but they already are in a constant flux, so nothing much would change there.

What I mean with "fixed ratio" is that, right now, the cave seems to have an ideal ratio for each breed in "mind". Like this:

30 mints : 50 guardians : 25 seasonals : 15 vines : ... : 1 gold

(Numbers are arbitrary. I don't know the actual number, nor did I intend to imply I do.)

 

This ratio system takes into account all dragons (probably not only adults, but eggs and hatchies as well - or we wouldn't have new releases mixed in with older breeds so quickly) that are of a certain age.

 

So, if we have 30 mints and only 30 guardians (in relation to each other), the cave produces more guardians to make up for the obvious lack of guardians.

 

 

 

Counting only growing things, but side-wide, is another can of worms that I really don't want to see opened, and for the following reasons:

• If only growing things (eggs, hatchies) are counted, new drops will get mixed in with older breeds even faster than they do now.
• Bred eggs would count. If you breed one metal, it won't drop in the cave.
• Small differences in breeding habits will affect the ratios immediately. So, if a couple of people go on a metallic breeding spree, breeding and catching will be much harder for everybody that tries the same thing an hour later.

[TikindiDragon]

What do you mean "fixed ratio"? If you are referring to actual numbers for each breed, no matter what, I don't remember seeing anyone mention x number of a certain dragon breed per a drop lately.

Actually x number of each breed per drop would work better than it currently does now. I'd be in *total* support of the ratios only applying to Cave Drops. The way it works now it looks at every living dragon on the site, and works out ideal numbers - say, 100 Terrae for every Gold. And the site will just keep producing those terrae eggs until it thinks it's reached the magic 'ratio'. The Terrae eggs get killed, bitten, die or are released to the wild? More terrae eggs are dropped because, again, the Cave doesn't think there's enough of them.

 

And that's where the problem lies. The Cave produces those 'blockers' because it doesn't think there are enough of them on people's Scrolls. That people don't really want them isn't relevant - the Cave thinks there has to be that many per each rare.

 

Edit to add: @Mordeth. Well, yeah, I know there will be more players that joined around the same time I did than actually post on the forums, but to a certain extent that's kinda the point - we don't get the input from them either. And unless those of us that *do* remember stand up and say something about it, no one else will realise it was ever any different.

Edited August 23, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[Syphoneira]

What I mean with "fixed ratio" is that, right now, the cave seems to have an ideal ratio for each breed in "mind". Like this:

30 mints : 50 guardians : 25 seasonals : 15 vines : ... : 1 gold

(Numbers are arbitrary. I don't know the actual number, nor did I intend to imply I do.)

 

This ratio system takes into account all dragons (probably not only adults, but eggs and hatchies as well - or we wouldn't have new releases mixed in with older breeds so quickly) that are of a certain age.

 

So, if we have 30 mints and only 30 guardians (in relation to each other), the cave produces more guardians to make up for the obvious lack of guardians.

 

 

 

Counting only growing things, but side-wide, is another can of worms that I really don't want to see opened, and for the following reasons:

If only growing things (eggs, hatchies) are counted, new drops will get mixed in with older breeds even faster than they do now.

Bred eggs would count. If you breed one metal, it won't drop in the cave.

Small differences in breeding habits will affect the ratios immediately. So, if a couple of people go on a metallic breeding spree, breeding and catching will be much harder for everybody that tries the same thing an hour later.

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

and also:

 

TikindiDragon:

 

'... Actually x number of each breed per drop would work better than it currently does now. I'd be in *total* support of the ratios only applying to Cave Drops. The way it works now it looks at every living dragon on the site, and works out ideal numbers - say, 100 Terrae for every Gold. And the site will just keep producing those terrae eggs until it thinks it's reached the magic 'ratio'. The Terrae eggs get killed, bitten, die or are released to the wild? More terrae eggs are dropped because, again, the Cave doesn't think there's enough of them.

 

And that's where the problem lies. The Cave produces those 'blockers' because it doesn't think there are enough of them on people's Scrolls. That people don't really want them isn't relevant - the Cave thinks there has to be that many per each rare. ...'

 

 

We have a long-running problem because the system is set up to enforce an unsustainable system which was designed long ago for a smaller group of people hunting a smaller group of dragons.

 

Now that we have more - and a steadily increasing - variety of dragons, we should be seeing that variety in accordance with what the environment (the users) can willingly support, rather than too many of those species than there's room for on our scrolls.

 

This is basically how an ecology (or a market-place) works, in balance with reality, and many of us would like to see this applied to DC, which is supposed to be a fun, stress-relieving activity done for recreation, NOT more frustration and boredom, as many of us can get that for free, or be paid to endure it, in real life.

[olympe]

Exactly. I'm not clamoring for TJ to make it easier to get rares or uncommons. But at least commons should be pretty easy to find. All of them. Where does it leave us if some people need to hunt for hours in order to find a CB storm, or a CB seasonal?

[Syphoneira]

Exactly. I'm not clamoring for TJ to make it easier to get rares or uncommons. But at least commons should be pretty easy to find. All of them. Where does it leave us if some people need to hunt for hours in order to find a CB storm, or a CB seasonal?

 

 

OR can't hunt through incoming eggs at all, just refresh on Blockers until they fall asleep or give up and go away to do something less frustrating and boring...

[demonicvampiregirl]

I think maybe just kicking them to the AP after sitting for like a half hour or so would fit. After they get low of time people will pick them up. I don't approve of them being retired from the cave at all. Some people may still be wanting CB dragons after all. Hopefully something can be done so they rotate more often.

[sh20000sh]

Auto-kicked to wilderness page and grow there by itself...?

[demonicvampiregirl]

Auto-kicked to wilderness page and grow there by itself...?

Nah I don't think that would be fair over all. Think about it how many people are now locking themselves with their max dragons now that the AP is full of low timed eggs. I've done it myself several times over the last couple weeks and plan to do it once I am freed up again.

[LibbyLishly]

I think maybe just kicking them to the AP after sitting for like a half hour or so would fit. After they get low of time people will pick them up. I don't approve of them being retired from the cave at all. Some people may still be wanting CB dragons after all. Hopefully something can be done so they rotate more often.

The auto-kicking to the AP idea seems like the best solution in my mind as well. I'm a little nervous over just how low-time the eggs over in the abandoned pile are going to get if that's the case, though. Right now, during new releases, you see a wall of eggs that have 2 days, X hours left - if commons were auto-kicking out even during those times, would we see more eggs dying simply because no one could pick them up?

[olympe]

I think maybe just kicking them to the AP after sitting for like a half hour or so would fit. After they get low of time people will pick them up. I don't approve of them being retired from the cave at all. Some people may still be wanting CB dragons after all. Hopefully something can be done so they rotate more often.

Half an hour? Seriously? That would be about 1800 refreshes (if you go at 1 refresh per second) with the same old, same old eggs. If it only happens after half an hour, we don't need to bother TJ with this idea at all.

 

But I have to agree about not retiring any more breeds. That's not the way to go as it only causes resentment.

 

I also think that the cave showing every player three random eggs at refresh might help, too. Sure, the rares will be picked up at a faster pace - but even players with slow connections get a better chance at grabbing the eggs. Because, if luck is on their side, they'll see the rares pop up with one of the first few refreshes while one of the faster players will need countless more refreshes to find them. This way, chances are more based on sheer dumb luck and determination instead of the fastest internet and reflexes.

Another point pro egg shuffle is that the cave won't be stuck on the same two or three blockers for ages. Instead, players will be able to find at least the commons they would be willing to pick up. Also, with such a system, a self-adjusting ratio system has a much better chance at working properly, as it can discern the current blocker breeds much more accurately at the end of the hour.

[Guillotine]

I'm reluctant to support changing the eggs with every refresh until the lag improves. i have a pretty good connection, but on DragCave it can take over a minute for me to refresh a page at the top of the hour. Maybe it would improve with a flat ratio system (so that the cave didn't have to take into account every dragon under a year old on the site)+autokicking (I still think 5 minutes is the best time, since it strikes the balance between too long and too short of a delay)+maaaaybe more mass drops, but the lag is so bad right now that anyone with a bad connection wouldn't stand a chance.

 

And yeah, retiring breeds is a bad plan. Let's not do that, even for a short time.