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Red2111

Cave Blockers and ways to deal with them

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That's the problem NOW. The ratios are already so far out of whack that I can't see them ever sorting themselves out naturally. Until TJ does a MAJOR overhaul on the ratio system itself, we've got to find some interim solutions.

 

Except there has to be a balance between what's caught and raised on scrolls and what's dropping in the cave... If everyone is catching and raising shinies (especially with an egg shuffling method) then eventually the cave will just haul way back on them entirely, leaving only the blockers that you're so desperate to get rid of.

 

The DC economy and people's own inclinations towards certain eggs/breeds drives the fact that certain eggs and breeds sit and sit. Otherwise what we're really saying as players is that TJ should just throw out ratios entirely and let us breed and hatch what we want - but would that really do anything for us? It's like in the real world - things like gold and diamonds are scarcer than other elements, and in higher demand. They specifically control the level of gold/etc available to avoid it being steeply devalued and throwing economies out of sorts. The DC economy and trading system is something that has to be considered as well.

 

The only solution that I can see working is to make the blockers more appealing.

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The only solution that I can see working is to make the blockers more appealing.

That's a great theory, and it's been done before to great effect. Remember when reds used to be ultra common drops? However, although I am in favour of some dragons getting suggested BSAs, there aren't enough BSAs that are going to make dragons really desirable to put one on a dragon every time it starts blocking the cave. I don't know what else would make dragons appealing to a wider range of people. The artwork is already of very high quality, and they don't do anything except be pictures on your scroll.

 

The problem is that for whatever reasons, whenever any breed stops being a cave blocker, another one starts. It's not always the oldest, and you can't say it's bad artwork because some of the blockers at the moment are wonderfully done. It's just some odd phases that go around.

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Details...

You go to a biome, you see three egg blanks with descriptions under them

If you want one of the eggs, you click on it

If you don't want one, you hit F5

Page refreshes and there would be 3 new eggs with descriptions showing.. but the egg graphic does NOT move, only the link changes.

 

I'd much prefer a system like this, and do agree that the ratios need to be reworked.

 

Someone mentioned fixed ratios. I can see that working infinitely better than the system right now. I wouldn't really be opposed to auto deleting either, but I'm sure many people would be.

 

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You know TJ tried the egg shuffle, or some version of it, back in 2008, right? People hated it. It lasted,what? 2 days? Something like that, before he took it off. Before you say, "But it works at this other place!" consider that their method of determining what eggs are available may be totally different. Just because it works for them doesn't mean it will work here.

 

Oh my goodness, thank you. I was beginning to think I had imagined that. >_o

 

I might be for the shuffle, but that includes totally overhauling DC's system, which I think is rather drastic. As is, I don't think this will work. It will totally screw with ratios and such and I think it will make the problem worse as well as make it even harder for those who already have troubles picking up more wanted and rarer dragons, which is hardly fair.

 

I am completely against retiring. I think kicking to the AP is only going to block it more, which already frustrates users. I'm against migration if it involves making cbs totally unable to be found. I am okay with migration if it only makes them more uncommonly seen in cave.

 

I'm for:

-more BSAs

-more hybrids

-user run lineage projects

-user run blocker contests thingys

-mossy eggs

-getting used to the fact that there will always be blockers =p

 

Although I prefer simple breeds, I'll point out that another suggestion has been things like shinies/albanism/color mutations as well as giving dragons alternate colors/sprites and dimorphism. (Although I'd like to see more dragons with multiple sprites released to see how these function in cave before suggesting this happens with already in cave dragons.)

Another suggestion was just to create less dragons altogether so that dragons available didn't exceed how many users were willing to pick up.

 

Btw, I can edit or re-start the poll for you if you need or want.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Although I prefer simple breeds, I'll point out that another suggestion has been things like shinies/albanism/color mutations as well as giving dragons alternate colors/sprites and dimorphism. (Although I'd like to see more dragons with multiple sprites released to see how these function in cave before suggesting this happens with already in cave dragons.)

 

I think this is a win win idea. Just look at stripes, everyone loves stripes because they come in so many colors. There are dozens of projects for breeding stripes.. patterned lines, one color, one color per gen, all white.. and some like my 10 gen even gen purebred project, I'm just going for the gen and not worrying about colors or patterns.

 

There's a set on the completed list that I'd love to see released.. they're called Equus, and there are 16 in the set.. all finished and ready to be released. Not sure what the breeding standards are supposed to be, some may be hybrids, ALTs or variants.. but they're listed for any or all biomes.

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Something that occurred to me from another topic that could be done to help has to do with the 'Cave Blocker Rewards'

 

Perhaps - there should be a badge/trophy for owning Cave born Dragons from various Biomes - BUT instead of it being things like [Own 1 of each] how many you need is based on how common/uncommon the eggs are.

 

*Note only Cave born would counts - not bred ones*

 

For example; the Alpine could be 10 Albinos, 10 Balloon, 1 Seasonal, etc [Dragons must make it to adulthood/be frozen to count]

 

This way - if players want the badges, they can take the eggs and raise them and if they don't - no loss to them.

 

Course, the downfall to this is that players who already HAVE the requirements would get the badge - thus don't have to pick up eggs...but it might still help (as I know many people are Achievement Hunters)

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This would only work if you had different levels of achievements - bronze: own ten of each (common). Silver: Own 25 of each common. Gold: Own 50 of each common. Platinum: Own 100 of each common...

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The problem is that for whatever reasons, whenever any breed stops being a cave blocker, another one starts. It's not always the oldest, and you can't say it's bad artwork because some of the blockers at the moment are wonderfully done. It's just some odd phases that go around.

I agree 100%, and I think this is why breed-specific fixes like BSAs, alts, recolors, hybrids, and the like aren't a good long-term solution for the problem of blockers. I do like those features, and I think they add to the site, but I think when it comes to getting rid of blockers, we need something more adaptable, like mossy eggs, demand-influenced ratios, or having eggs lose time as they sit in the cave (or on the AP) for long periods of time.

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BSA's, ALTs, variants and hybrids help the breeds they apply to, but do nothing for the overall problem. Blockers vary over time, so the solution needs to be something long range as well.

 

Redoing the ratios to reflect supply and demand would be a good start.. but may not solve the whole problem.

 

Since the egg shuffle is so unpopular, I'll throw my support to something else.

1. Cave eggs which sit for more than X mins get deleted.

2. AP eggs which sit for more than X mins, start losing time.

 

I say X, because I know the duration is something that needs to be discussed, and will probably wind up being a compromise of different choices.

 

My personal choice would be anything over 2 mins. That's long enough for several hundred refreshes, and about how long my attention span lasts without becoming frustated.

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I agree 100%, and I think this is why breed-specific fixes like BSAs, alts, recolors, hybrids, and the like aren't a good long-term solution for the problem of blockers. I do like those features, and I think they add to the site, but I think when it comes to getting rid of blockers, we need something more adaptable, like mossy eggs, demand-influenced ratios, or having eggs lose time as they sit in the cave (or on the AP) for long periods of time.

^Pretty much this. I love some of the blockers, like albinos, albinos are actually a favorite of mine. However, because they are so easy to get, I would rather wait for something that I like equally well, but isn't seen as much. Especially as just going in and grabbing the first thing I see when there is no competition to do so isn't much fun(it is another thing when there is a lot of competition like a new release).

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BSA's, ALTs, variants and hybrids help the breeds they apply to, but do nothing for the overall problem. Blockers vary over time, so the solution needs to be something long range as well.

Well, some blockers vary over time. I've been playing for over 3 years now, and there was absolutely no time where greys, whiptails, pebbles, neos and guardians weren't blockers. Well, maybe a very short timespan for pebbles when EQ was new...

 

However, there were also times when frills, reds, pinks, blacks or vines were blockers, and I remember those, too.

 

Redoing the ratilve the whole problem.os to reflect supply and demand would be a good start.. but may not so

As long as it's an automatic feature that updates regularly and often, it will probably help a lot.

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Since the egg shuffle is so unpopular, I'll throw my support to something else.

1. Cave eggs which sit for more than X mins get deleted.

2. AP eggs which sit for more than X mins, start losing time.

Just personally, I'd prefer if the cave/breeding produced less eggs overall rather than deleting them. Deleting them - well, they're going to have to show up again, anyway, at some point.

 

Although, I suppose, depending on how ratios work and these were implemented, deleting and producing less eggs overall would really be paramount to the same thing, in which case, I guess I don't care that much which is implemented. x3

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Fewer eggs won't help much. People will just raise fewer eggs - or breed what they want to raise.

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OP has been updated with a breif explination for all of the options in the poll; i've removed the Pro/Con lists though to save on space.

 

the only problem with an auto-kick option is the AP blockage. it shuffles the problem. so if we go with this option then the AP would need to be overhauled first as its currently a bigger problem than CBers.

 

 

i'm 100% against the addition of more egg lines or more bio-domes though. i have a hard enough time deciding what to get when a vending machine has many options and this will only increase the problems we're already facing (bio-domes not moving, the amount of blockers)

 

and while i'm in favor of more Blocker reward projects ... we need more interest and participation in the ones currently established before we make more imo.

 

 

and yes, while we will never get rid of CBers unless we all decide to give up precious egg space for those CBers ... there are things that can be done to limit the impact they have on the cave.

 

edit - which is why i'm in favor of altering dragon ratios on commons to reflect demand. this will cause them to produce less dragons; and imo will effect more of the CB drops rather than breeding if done right. alter the ratio by, say, 10% less, than what it is and you'll see a dramatic effect imo

 

 

people have been suggesting BSA and Hybrids (added into the Other option). i liek the idea of more BSA's, especially a BSA on a common CBer that allows for freezing eggs.

 

but, this is temporary imo. as another pointed out, Earthquake did little for the pebble; and a hybrid addition only did 6 months for the spitefire before it was back to being a CBer (though they do move quicker now than they used to)

Edited by Red2111

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If the AP stays as it is, (and as I and so many others are loving it,)

 

and is no longer blocking the Cave

 

but providing a continual source of low-time eggs people wouldn't otherwise spend egg slots on,

 

kicking eggs that sit more than 5 minutes in the Biomes to the back of the line in the AP solves the problem in a responsive manner,

 

so that eggs which suddenly become useful are still available,

 

and those which some, but not many want, are available for them, so that nobody has lineage plans messed up,

 

those which people ordinarily wouldn't take show up Incuhatchable in the AP and DO get picked up - a win-win, both in the Cave and AP, without creating problems for ANYONE.

 

This seems to me to be the perfect solution!

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Yes, the AP is working nicely. Those 5 day eggs are helping me with a major trade. It would be nice if the last row showed 7 day eggs, so that those recently abandoned could be seen too. But that's not near as important as keeping those 5 day eggs coming.

 

Now if we could just find a solution for the blockers in the biomes. Hunting the cave is a lot more fun when the eggs actually change. When the same 3 eggs (sometimes of the same species) just sit and sit and sit, it gets very annoying and frustrating.

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Would it be possible for the cave to not allow 2 eggs of the same species to show in the egg slots? Unless, of course, all that's left are two different species. True, it doesn't solve the problem of eggs not moving, but at least you'd have a selection.

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Would it be possible for the cave to not allow 2 eggs of the same species to show in the egg slots? Unless, of course, all that's left are two different species. True, it doesn't solve the problem of eggs not moving, but at least you'd have a selection.

That sounds good to me.

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That was discussed once before. TJ had some practical reasons why that wouldn't work. I'd have to hunt to find the quote. It's buried somewhere here in the section.

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I am enjoying the AP of nearly incuhatchable eggs, especially since I have over 100 reds, but I really wish we had more freezes.

 

I wish there were more alts on the caveblockers.

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I put in a vote for migration (or seasonal rotation) because then it would at least consistently shift the blocker of the quarter. There shouldn't be any "bounce-back" effect, because their ratio was changed entirely, not because they were suppressed.

 

However, instead of just only one option to tackle cave blockers I think a multi-faceted approach would be more productive. In a sort of carpet-bomb to the general problem instead of one direct hit at a breed that might suddenly develop a lapse (tsunamis for instance, they weren't blocker common, but I sure remember seeing a lot of them until this last release, they've suddenly become very uncommon and I'm thankful that I'm tanked up on them).

 

 

Generally I like the chained option of:

 

Egg stays in cave XX minutes > gets booted to AP > Booted CB/Bred Stays in AP XX minutes gets shortened by 1 day > stays in AP XX minutes after first shortening gets shortened by another day. (Because seriously, these mostly Incuhatchable eggs are AWESOME!)

 

If nothing else it'd make me rejoin the Cave Plumbers project if I could run common breeds through my scroll quickly. (If we had tabs or something for me to stick my Plumbed breeds and keep them organized for quick counting I'd be doing that all day, every day until I ran out of Incubates.)

 

At the same time, this could also help:

 

Have only CB commons alt (in the same vein as dorsals and nebulas), or we end up with lots of bred eggs in the AP. Also -and this one caveat will probably get some hate- only have the ADULT sprite be the alt, no giveaways as hatchlings/mature hatchlings.

 

(Or we'd just end up with more common dumped hatchlings in the AP (again, possibly not a problem if Cave Plumbers and the like stay strong) and no one would have enough freezes to manage it. I for one, don't freeze, so I'd be of absolutely no help if that happened. Also, it's less work for the spriters to only edit an adult(s) sprite.)

 

It's true that this would in effect "force" people to raise them, but hey, they could also be satisfied with the alts in lineages or, they could raise them to adult, then the ratio would count them, then they could abandon them to the wilderness. Dragons in the wilderness don't count, I know, but arguably they should if their raised to adulthood on a scroll and then released. The site can't possibly be monitoring every dragon for an entire year in case it gets dumped to the wilderness at 11 months 28 days of age; to make sense and be dynamic enough to keep up with the players, the cave must count adults the moment they turn adults. I'd love if TJ popped in to say that's how things run, but I'll also take his silence to mean that's how things run.

 

I think a combo of an Adult-only alt form + continuous supply of Incuhatchable eggs on the AP would probably do a lot to at least help the blocker problem. From there, the only things in danger would be our scroll limits.

Edited by Amut un Rama

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Personally, I love the way things are set up right now. I can hunt the cave whenever I want, and, since I was very short on purple CB ridgewings for a breeding project, I'm happily picking them up from the AP as nearly incu-hatchable eggs. Best of both worlds, I'm almost totally locked.

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With what TJ has been doing lately, I think the AP block problem is solved.

 

What we need to work on now, is getting the biome block fixed. Even if the biomes are never blocked by the AP ever again, if the same 3 eggs are sitting there for refresh after refresh after refresh, it's just as bad as not being able to hunt the biome at all.

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With what TJ has been doing lately, I think the AP block problem is solved.

 

What we need to work on now, is getting the biome block fixed. Even if the biomes are never blocked by the AP ever again, if the same 3 eggs are sitting there for refresh after refresh after refresh, it's just as bad as not being able to hunt the biome at all.

I dunno - I am catching more good CB stuff than I used to in the biomes....

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I dunno - I am catching more good CB stuff than I used to in the biomes....

If the eggs in the biome are actually changing, that's very true. But once you have 3 blocker eggs in a biome the good hunting is done for that one.. and after a while, it's the same way in multiple biomes, and that's when biome hunting gets BORING.

 

I hunt mostly for cb stripes in the forest and jungle, and during the first 15 to 20 mins after an hour the hunting is usually pretty good lately. But around the 30 min mark it tends to freeze up with blocker eggs, and I don't know about you, but after a couple of hundred refreshes with no change I get BORED, big time. At which point I either change to a different biome, move to the AP or go do something else entirely. I have no interest in locking myself with unwanted blocker eggs for 5 hours or 5 mins, it's just not my style.

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