Cave Blockers and ways to deal with them

[purpledragonclaw]

I voted other. After reading this thread I'm wondering if the release of more dragons into the biomes would help with this problem. Would their ratios balance existing ratios and help balance overall populations or would it add to the problem? I definitely agree the populations of some dragons seem to be larger than others just from what I've seen hunting the biomes.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I'm still most in favor of the egg shuffle, but there are a couple of other ideas here that have some merit.

 

I think that some dragons show up in too many biomes, and others should show up in more biomes. Blocker breeds should be restricted to one biome, and the number of blockers in a single biome should also be limited. Example: 12 breeds are designated as blockers. Each blocker breed would then be limited to one biome, but no more than 2 breeds would be in any one biome. So with 12 blockers, there would be 2 per biome max.

 

To compensate, more popular breeds should then be added to more biomes.. blacks are common and very wanted, so let them drop in all six biomes, since their description doesn't give them any preferences in habitat. Maybe Trios could drop in two biomes instead of only one.. Ices in Alpine and Coast, Magmas in Desert and Volcano and Thunders in Forest and Jungle. Maybe instead of all the dinos being in the jungle, let them drop in all biomes like the cheeses, papers and chickens. This could also apply to several other dragons that only appear in one or two biomes but are very popular; golden wyverns, blusang lindwyrms, royal blues, nebulas.

 

If we add this in addition to the biome changes proposed in the other thread, I think we might see some progress. One of the biggest problems I've identified, is that the breeds aren't spread out properly; leaving some biomes overpopulated and others underpopulated, because there aren't enough popular breeds to offset the blocker breeds in certain biomes. While some blocker breeds are in multiple biomes and other popular breeds are only found in one biome; it's unbalanced and needs to be addressed.

[Fiona]

You know TJ tried the egg shuffle, or some version of it, back in 2008, right? People hated it. It lasted,what? 2 days? Something like that, before he took it off. Before you say, "But it works at this other place!" consider that their method of determining what eggs are available may be totally different. Just because it works for them doesn't mean it will work here.

 

Based on observation of the last few days, I'd say the biggest problem we have is spreading the hunters out over all the biomes, instead of them being concentrated in just one or two. The alpine, due to the new eggs, had over a hundred people there. The jungle? 5. I think personally the new proposed release schedule will fix some of that, as long as the new releases get spread out a bit over the biomes. Maybe a new one that drops in all biomes or something. That will give people incentive to hunt in those biomes that really don't move right now.

 

Just to be clear where I stand, I'm not opposed to trying some of the things suggested. If they get tried and they work, then yay. I just don't think most of the solutions suggested will actually fix anything.

[Nectaris]

Based on observation of the last few days, I'd say the biggest problem we have is spreading the hunters out over all the biomes, instead of them being concentrated in just one or two. The alpine, due to the new eggs, had over a hundred people there. The jungle? 5. I think personally the new proposed release schedule will fix some of that, as long as the new releases get spread out a bit over the biomes. Maybe a new one that drops in all biomes or something. That will give people incentive to hunt in those biomes that really don't move right now.

 

It was that way before the newest release. People don't hunt the other biomes because not only are there many blockers, but few things they want. I think for new releases to help in biomes like the jungle, there would have to be several new releases there and no where else, and have them only occur in those biomes.

[Fiona]

I think even if the new dragon dropped elsewhere too the jungle or other clogged biome would move with a new release appearing there. Say one drops in the coast and the jungle. If you go to the coast and there are 100 people competing for the new eggs, wouldn't you switch to the jungle, even though there are more blockers there, because there is also less competition for the new eggs? That's what I'd do. So I don't think they'd need to be "jungle only" to help the jungle. "Jungle only" wouldn't hurt anything, but even something dropping elsewhere too would help.

[Nectaris]

I think even if the new dragon dropped elsewhere too the jungle or other clogged biome would move with a new release appearing there. Say one drops in the coast and the jungle. If you go to the coast and there are 100 people competing for the new eggs, wouldn't you switch to the jungle, even though there are more blockers there, because there is also less competition for the new eggs? That's what I'd do. So I don't think they'd need to be "jungle only" to help the jungle. "Jungle only" wouldn't hurt anything, but even something dropping elsewhere too would help.

I disagree. I think a large problem with jungle is most of the jungle exclusive dragons are common and easy to get. If you put in a desirable egg that appeared in say desert and jungle, then people will hunt the desert instead because it moves faster and you are more likely to see what you want, even if more people are hunting them. Blacks for example, CB blacks are highly desired,and appear in jungle, but people don't hunt for them there because it doesn't move and they are available elsewhere.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Nectaris

[KishaRa]

You know TJ tried the egg shuffle, or some version of it, back in 2008, right? People hated it. It lasted, what? 2 days? Something like that, before he took it off. Before you say, "But it works at this other place!" consider that their method of determining what eggs are available may be totally different. Just because it works for them doesn't mean it will work here.

 

No, in fact I did not know this. Although I was a member in 2008, I was not very active, and not on the forums, so I would have missed something that lasted only 2 days. I’m sure other people could also have missed this.

 

I agree that the hunters are currently clogged up in one or two places. The Alpine is currently really full, and was before the new release, because there are so many alpine exclusives that are uncommon and somewhat new. Also rare hunters stake out the active biomes because they don’t get blocked. It would be nice if we got some new releases for other biomes in the near future that got them moving a bit faster, but I think there’s quite a few alpine concepts on the completed board.

 

[Cinnamin Draconna]

You know TJ tried the egg shuffle, or some version of it, back in 2008, right? People hated it. It lasted,what? 2 days? Something like that, before he took it off. Before you say, "But it works at this other place!" consider that their method of determining what eggs are available may be totally different. Just because it works for them doesn't mean it will work here.

Not the same egg shuffle. The shuffle TJ previously tried was for the AP and was graphically oriented. As in, he had the egg sprites shuffling around on the page, and they kept covering each other up or hiding behind each other and no one could catch the eggs that were behind other eggs.

 

The egg shuffle I/we are asking for is for the cave/biome ONLY, and does not involve graphics at all. All this shuffle does is make a new egg link show up with every refresh.

 

Details...

You go to a biome, you see three egg blanks with descriptions under them

If you want one of the eggs, you click on it

If you don't want one, you hit F5

Page refreshes and there would be 3 new eggs with descriptions showing.. but the egg graphic does NOT move, only the link changes.

[Slaskia]

Not the same egg shuffle. The shuffle TJ previously tried was for the AP and was graphically oriented. As in, he had the egg sprites shuffling around on the page, and they kept covering each other up or hiding behind each other and no one could catch the eggs that were behind other eggs.

 

The egg shuffle I/we are asking for is for the cave/biome ONLY, and does not involve graphics at all. All this shuffle does is make a new egg link show up with every refresh.

 

Details...

You go to a biome, you see three egg blanks with descriptions under them

If you want one of the eggs, you click on it

If you don't want one, you hit F5

Page refreshes and there would be 3 new eggs with descriptions showing.. but the egg graphic does NOT move, only the link changes.

I remember the AP one, but TJ did try one for the cave itself and it didn't work.

[Nectaris]

I remember the AP one, but TJ did try one for the cave itself and it didn't work.

I will point out that that was years ago, and with one cave. Also, back then things got taken up immediately and three of the same kind showing up was practically unheard of(I remember the first time was talked about a lot, and when it did it was worthy of a screenshot). In other words, things have changed drastically, what didn't work back then might work now.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Nectaris

[Shienvien]

Random Egg shuffle when browser is refreshed is what I'd probably pick (+ add more species so even the commons would not be that common anymore due to more variety). It might even help long-ping people who sit on the other side of the world - like me - to get rarer eggs, since the same eggs would not be shown to all people currently viewing the site at once.

[Slaskia]

But we'll still have the issue of the biomes being picked clean of all the 'desireables' within minutes (edit: if not seconds...) of the cave unlocking, leaving only the 'undesireables' behind.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Slaskia

[Nectaris]

But we'll still have the issue of the biomes being picked clean of all the 'desireables' within minutes (edit: if not seconds...) of the cave unlocking, leaving only the 'undesireables' behind.

And that could be helped by spreading out the drops, rather than have one large drop on the hour. Like have smaller drops, but be every 10 or 15 minutes rather than hourly.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Nectaris

[Cinnamin Draconna]

That can be fixed too.. by RANDOMLY renewing the eggs. Instead of a single reset at the top of the hour, there can be one at the top of the hour, on the half hour and two or three more in between. By making it random, there would be more chances during the hour to find the 'good' eggs.. and if folk know that more eggs will be added during the hour, there might be less lag at the top of the hour.. plus more folk in the biomes during the rest of the hour... etc. etc.

 

 

[Slaskia]

For that to work, the AP would never have to block the cave.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

If folk didn't have to sacrifice slots to pick up unwanted eggs to get the biomes moving... then dumping them to the AP 5 hrs later... maybe the AP wouldn't get so clogged up.

[cyradis4]

And that could be helped by spreading out the drops, rather than have one large drop on the hour. Like have smaller drops, but be every 10 or 15 minutes rather than hourly.

That won't help with the huge boom / bust cycles some breeds go through, though.

 

The other way to handle is to create an in-game incentive for people to pick up more blockers, or at least not "penalize" them for giving up their precious egg slots to something they really don't want.

 

Say for instance.... If an egg sits in the cave for say 2 minutes, when someone does pick it up, you find it's actually a CB hatchling you've lured from the cave. Or for that matter, if it sits for 2 minutes have it and it's description change to the hatchie version! I'd be perfectly content if said hatchie needed say 5 days (2 days for "egg" stage and 3 for hatchie stage), and couldn't be frozen for 2 days. Say, "you found the hatchling starving and near death, maybe it's mother had an accident? It's growth is slow and it is too weak at first to have any spell placed on it". Of course, said hatchling wouldn't be influencable, but that just means if someone wants a specific gender, they just have to snag an egg. Or for that matter, in the cave give the converted hatchling it's own description: "This hatchling is in poor health, as though it's mother hasn't been taking care of it". Other than what's above, it's identical to the normal sprites and descriptions.

So in essence, the only difference between this "abandoned" hatchie and an egg is it's not influencable and it takes up a hatchie spot from the moment you grab it.

 

Or have the AP eggs lose time faster, and if an egg sits in the Cave for a period of time, have it rotate to the AP where it loses time much faster and it'll get picked up fast, if it's got 6 or less days on it, even if it is a blocker. When people aren't locked tight with new releases, that's what normally happens.

 

I almost always have several extra hatchie spots, but no extra egg slots. I happily use those slots on any egg / hatchie I see that is incu-hatchable (or nearly so).

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Nectaris]

That won't help with the huge boom / bust cycles some breeds go through, though.

 

The other way to handle is to create an in-game incentive for people to pick up more blockers, or at least not "penalize" them for giving up their precious egg slots to something they really don't want.

 

Say for instance.... If an egg sits in the cave for say 2 minutes, when someone does pick it up, you find it's actually a CB hatchling you've lured from the cave. Or for that matter, if it sits for 2 minutes have it and it's description change to the hatchie version! I'd be perfectly content if said hatchie needed say 5 days (2 days for "egg" stage and 3 for hatchie stage), and couldn't be frozen for 2 days. Say, "you found the hatchling starving and near death, maybe it's mother had an accident? It's growth is slow and it is too weak at first to have any spell placed on it". Of course, said hatchling wouldn't be influencable, but that just means if someone wants a specific gender, they just have to snag an egg. Or for that matter, in the cave give the converted hatchling it's own description: "This hatchling is in poor health, as though it's mother hasn't been taking care of it". Other than what's above, it's identical to the normal sprites and descriptions.

So in essence, the only difference between this "abandoned" hatchie and an egg is it's not influencable and it takes up a hatchie spot from the moment you grab it.

 

Or have the AP eggs lose time faster, and if an egg sits in the Cave for a period of time, have it rotate to the AP where it loses time much faster and it'll get picked up fast, if it's got 6 or less days on it, even if it is a blocker. When people aren't locked tight with new releases, that's what normally happens.

 

I almost always have several extra hatchie spots, but no extra egg slots. I happily use those slots on any egg / hatchie I see that is incu-hatchable (or nearly so).

 

Cheers!

C4.

I would rather overhaul the ratios to be more supply/demand base, rather than the site shoving X breed down your throat whether you want it or not to meet some ideal ratio which never seems to be met.

 

That said, IF the site was to continue in said mentality your suggestions would be nice, but I can't see TJ ever letting you get an insta-hatchling from the cave. Personally, I would support a sitewide contest(not forum based) for certain breeds than anything else.

[DragonNighthowler]

I would rather overhaul the ratios to be more supply/demand base, rather than the site shoving X breed down your throat whether you want it or not to meet some ideal ratio which never seems to be met.

I think that is important. There have been many attempts at solving the issue through different types of events like the Go Green, hoarding contests, the lottery, etc. They have had a slight effect in the way that the AP gets mostly cleaned from those breeds for some time, yet mostly stay as blockers, and it might be due to the variable ratios. I think, from what I've seen, breeding affects ratios more than hunting does. We might hoard a thousand spitfires, but rares will always be bred where spitfires wont because they interest no one. The more rares bred, the more commons the cave will produce to even out, and even if there is a drought of metallic breedings, if the cave believes that per each rare there should be 100 commons, per each silver dragon, 100 new spitfires will spawn in the cave (because people are not breeding them, therefore, they will be born as CB). People won't stop breeding rares because they are valuable, and people won't pick up spitfires or breed them because they are pest-common, or don't like, or whichever reasons they have.

 

That is my perception of how things work with the ratios. I might be completely mistaken.

 

As far, some of the proposed solutions might work. I quiet liked releasing new, maybe uncommon breeds to blocked biomes to move them a bit.

 

[Fiona]

Not the same egg shuffle. The shuffle TJ previously tried was for the AP and was graphically oriented. As in, he had the egg sprites shuffling around on the page, and they kept covering each other up or hiding behind each other and no one could catch the eggs that were behind other eggs.

 

The egg shuffle I/we are asking for is for the cave/biome ONLY, and does not involve graphics at all. All this shuffle does is make a new egg link show up with every refresh.

That's not the egg shuffle I was talking about, Cinnamon. I remember that one too, and while I found it interesting, it was hard to see all the eggs. That never was implemented on the actual site either. The egg shuffle I'm talking about was in the main cave, on site. I remember it particularly because the suggestions forum was full of the talk of it when I was pretty new. Essentially, it was exactly what you're asking for. Each refresh a different set of eggs showed for each person.

 

I'm surprised none of the other "oldies" here are remembering this. I'm sure I didn't imagine it.

[DarkEternity]

I would rather overhaul the ratios to be more supply/demand base, rather than the site shoving X breed down your throat whether you want it or not to meet some ideal ratio which never seems to be met.

This will not help. You see, with the advent of more frequent CB metal drops what ends up happening is that they are devalued to the extent that unobtanium like second gen shimmers become even more unobtainable because shimmer owners are less likely to accept AVAILABLE dragons resulting in untradeable eggs, shimmer-shimmer trading occurs and a lot of unhappy people are unable to obtain low gens. We always want what we don't have.

 

It's like this: CB metals are super rare they are unaffordable. At least it's somewhat possible to get unobtainum without having said unobtainum on hand.

 

CB metals are super common because of demand. Well bad luck trading for unobtainium if you don't have it in the first place. Because everyone already has the desirable eggs you want and thousands of them... so people only want bloodswaps of things you don't have and can't get. yay, not.

Edited March 9, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Amur_Rama]

Say for instance.... If an egg sits in the cave for say 2 minutes, when someone does pick it up, you find it's actually a CB hatchling you've lured from the cave. Or for that matter, if it sits for 2 minutes have it and it's description change to the hatchie version! I'd be perfectly content if said hatchie needed say 5 days (2 days for "egg" stage and 3 for hatchie stage), and couldn't be frozen for 2 days. Say, "you found the hatchling starving and near death, maybe it's mother had an accident? It's growth is slow and it is too weak at first to have any spell placed on it". Of course, said hatchling wouldn't be influencable, but that just means if someone wants a specific gender, they just have to snag an egg. Or for that matter, in the cave give the converted hatchling it's own description: "This hatchling is in poor health, as though it's mother hasn't been taking care of it". Other than what's above, it's identical to the normal sprites and descriptions.

So in essence, the only difference between this "abandoned" hatchie and an egg is it's not influencable and it takes up a hatchie spot from the moment you grab it.

*snipped*

 

 

Wouldn't.... this suggestion make much more sense for the AP? If an egg gets bounced around, say for 5 minutes (or in the case of the new release, we end up with 5day eggs on the AP), or more than five different people grab and then reabandon it can appear as a hatchling. Some people do grab for freezing, and if it has an expanded time limit where it cannot be frozen, but isn't at risk for growing up, I think they can sacrifice 14 hatchling slots until they find the eggs they want for a full 21 lock, or shoot, a full 21 hatchling lock (or any trophy level lock) if they want.

 

They would probably move the AP a bit faster because the same eggs wouldn't stay, and would help out with those people who are in those forum contests. Since most people pick up and drop blockers, they really can pick and choose to keep cb or lineaged hatchlings from the AP without being locked.

 

We're fortunate that the system doesn't care if a dragon is an adult or a frozen when it makes it's count, only that it's at a fixed stage.

[Reidragon]

Not the same egg shuffle. The shuffle TJ previously tried was for the AP and was graphically oriented. As in, he had the egg sprites shuffling around on the page, and they kept covering each other up or hiding behind each other and no one could catch the eggs that were behind other eggs.

 

The egg shuffle I/we are asking for is for the cave/biome ONLY, and does not involve graphics at all. All this shuffle does is make a new egg link show up with every refresh.

 

Details...

You go to a biome, you see three egg blanks with descriptions under them

If you want one of the eggs, you click on it

If you don't want one, you hit F5

Page refreshes and there would be 3 new eggs with descriptions showing.. but the egg graphic does NOT move, only the link changes.

I played on a site that used the egg shuffle method you are speaking of. I won't name the site but it also is a collecting site a bit similar to this one where you pick up eggs hatch ect.

 

I quit that site. Mostly because of the shuffling method. I'm not a person who can get on at the top of the hour. Because of this all that was left in the 'shuffle pile' by the time I managed to get on is what here in DC we call 'blocker breeds' the most common of the common. Because of the shuffle method it got so bad that one species stopped dropping AT ALL. Because there was an alternate color for it that you could only get through hatching and they got so overpopulated above every other breed that they had to put a 'hiatus' into place for that breed. In other words no more would drop at all until the other breeds caught up ratio wise.

 

I had ZERO chance of picking up anything worthwhile on that site because the same people with the faster connections picked up loads and loads of the rarer species and then flaunted them in masses like status symbols. I would rather not see this happen here. I highly doubt when people know they might uncover a gold simply by refreshing constantly they will pick up any blocker breeds at all.

 

People would just refresh, refresh, refresh at the top of every hour till they filled their scrolls with what the community sees as 'desirable' and the rest would be left to rot. I've seen it happen there and have no doubt that it would here as well if we allowed this to happen with ratios as they are. You think feast and famine is bad now? Implement the shuffle. I guarantee that within months the only thing that will drop is those blocker breeds people complain about now because the ratios will be so far out of wack it will be scary.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I guarantee that within months the only thing that will drop is those blocker breeds people complain about now because the ratios will be so far out of wack it will be scary.

 

That's the problem NOW. The ratios are already so far out of whack that I can't see them ever sorting themselves out naturally. Until TJ does a MAJOR overhaul on the ratio system itself, we've got to find some interim solutions.

 

The biomes as they are, are pretty much unhuntable except for whichever biome has the new release in it.. and/or the most desirable of the others. Currently, it's the Alpine.. after the reset at the top of the hour, you get maybe 3-4 mins of eggs, then that biome is empty until the next hour drop. Meanwhile, the other 5 biomes just sit there with nothing showing but blocker eggs that no one wants. That IS the problem we need to solve.. if the biomes don't refresh, no one can get anything. And we should NOT have to sacrifice egg slots to blocker eggs that we don't want. And taking blockers just to drop them 5 hrs later doesn't help either, because all that does is clog up the AP.

 

If the egg shuffle won't work, the only other option is for eggs to start auto-deleting. As in, egg sits in biome for X mins, unwanted egg then vanishes and is never seen again. No, we don't want them going to the AP.. that just clogs the AP.. and sending them to the Wilderness is just a waste of storage space, because you can't interact with the Wilderness. The only way for this to work is for the eggs to go away, completely. Problem here tho, is that I have no clue how this would work with the current ratio system for egg drops. It might not even be possible.

[KishaRa]

I have to agree here. The only way random egg shuffle can work well is if the system for dropping eggs changed to not dropping a huge load at xx:00 and spacing the drops out through the hour instead.

 

It's like this: CB metals are super rare they are unaffordable. At least it's somewhat possible to get unobtainum without having said unobtainum on hand.

 

CB metals are super common because of demand. Well bad luck trading for unobtainium if you don't have it in the first place. Because everyone already has the desirable eggs you want and thousands of them... so people only want bloodswaps of things you don't have and can't get. yay, not. 

 

When people say ‘change the ratios’ and ‘make things more supply and demand’ in this context, they’re not really talking about metals and other rares. We all understand that rares are not suddenly going to fall like rain. But I don’t really see why we need the current system of 30 common breed X:30 common breed y:1 gold or whatever it really is, I just pulled those numbers out of thin air. My point is if 60 commons were raised, it shouldn’t matter too much what breeds they were. So if breed X isn't being taken and breed Y is, drop more Y than X for a while.

 

I’m not going to get into too much detail here as there’s a whole thread about changing the ratios of commons.

 

I personally think that it wold be a good thing, even if the ratios don’t change at all, to have them check the population more often, so there’s a smoother change in the breeding and dropping behaviours rather than the on/off state it feels like we have now.