ANSWERED:Papers: bringing genders back!

[purplehaze]

My idea was to get genders *back* to a dragon that used to have them. That's one of the reasons I dare hope it may happen - they used to have them both, in comparison to other unbreedables. But we'll see. :3

It actually seems to me that that makes it less likely that they will get them back. TJ presumably had a reason for deciding that they should no longer have genders and unless something has happened to make that reason invalid now, it seems unlikely that he will change his mind.

 

I own gendered Papers dragons and it seems odd to me that Papers no longer get genders, so I am not against this idea -- I just doubt that it will happen.

[ZzelaBusya]

Thank you very much for the feedback :3 I haven't checked this topic for a while, to be honest I was already mourning over it because I was sure it had got to the 1000th page and wasn't about to return Thank you so much for keeping it alive.

 

 

I have to say I rather like the exoticness of having a non-gendered type of dragon.  It's not as if every being needs their gender clearly defined.  And if any type were to be ungendered, it makes sense for it to be a non-animal type.  (Sorry to all you [old fogies] with papers from the early days, who want to have an equal number of M/F or whatever )

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I'm afraid you might have missed the point that has to do with unknown gender. This suggestion doesn't propose removing the ability to get ungendered Papers - the other way around, Papers would still be hatching and growing up unknown-gendered; it's just that people who want the gendered papers back would be given an opportunity to get them.

 

I share your view that the unknown gender is a lovely trait of them, and I like that. But I think it wasn't really fair to deprive the poor Papers of genders. So why not have both? Hurts no one ^^

 

 

I agree.

And wouldn't this make punks even RARER?

Yes, I believe it would indeed make Papers more sought after and therefore harder to find. But I think it would only be temporary, as set collectors would be trying to catch up with what they'd be missing.

 

Most users actually don't keep a lot of them, actual Paper collectors who hoard lots aren't common, from what I know. So after a while things would settle, I think.

 

 

It actually seems to me that that makes it less likely that they will get them back. TJ presumably had a reason for deciding that they should no longer have genders and unless something has happened to make that reason invalid now, it seems unlikely that he will change his mind.

 

I own gendered Papers dragons and it seems odd to me that Papers no longer get genders, so I am not against this idea -- I just doubt that it will happen.

*nods* I get your point, and you may be right, yes =/

It's a shame I wasn't around when it happened, so unfortunately I am not that aware of all the reasons and whether any discussions took place back then or not; I created a topic in the help section, asking why genders had been removed (before creating this suggestion), and the topic got closed after a while, but I still didn't get the needed answer, sadly.

 

What gives me hope is that this suggestion hasn't been shut down so far, so maybe there is a slight possibility that it may come true? I'm not sure, but still Hope we hear some kind of official statement some day.

 

 

Thanks again! <3

Edited October 18, 2013 by ZzelaBusya

[Draketeeth]

I don't mind if papers have genders. It doesn't bother me either way. If someone wants paper dragon to have a gender, then go for it.

 

For the arguments:

They are unbreedables, therefore they don't need genders.

They are jokes and need no gender.

 

So are chickens, but you don't see them running around genderless. Chicken have a gender, even if they are all one gender.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't mind if papers have genders. It doesn't bother me either way. If someone wants paper dragon to have a gender, then go for it.

 

For the arguments:

They are unbreedables, therefore they don't need genders.

They are jokes and need no gender.

 

So are chickens, but you don't see them running around genderless. Chicken have a gender, even if they are all one gender.

But chickens are flesh and blood creatures, whereas paper and cheese are, well, paper and cheese. Even if the chickens in DC are a joke and don't breed with anything, you can see why a gender for them would make a lot more sense than magical dragons folded out of paper or carved out of cheese. How do you tell if a piece of paper is male or female?

 

That being said, still neutral on this suggestion. It'd be cute (I liked having girl papers and boy papers, haha), but I'd not cry if it didn't happen again, either. ^^

[sorenna]

The only way I could see this being a reasonable idea is if dimorphism was also introduced, which I understand is not being proposed.

 

What distinguishes a "female" paper doll from a "male" paper doll (or, for that matter, a male electric connector from a female)? These things don't have biological gender, but they are identifiable as two separate categories of a single thing, based on... appearance. If Paper dragons were shaped/folded in different ways to reflect the gender differences of 'real' dragons, yes, it'd make sense that some people would distinguish them on that basis.

 

Since all Paper dragons look exactly the same, however, gendering them is ridiculous; might as well insist that your pair of socks are male and female. Without the ability to breed, AND no visual difference between the 'genders', what exactly does anyone get out of it? It's kind of silly, and possibly a bit of extra bother to the people who feel they absolutely have to collect every variation of dragon (instead of having to catch X Papers, they now have to catch 3X Papers), and I don't really see the point.

 

Plus, as others have noted, in-universe explanations for how Pinks influence eggs doesn't work on something that has no biological basis.

 

 

[ZzelaBusya]

Thank you for the comments =)

 

Since all Paper dragons look exactly the same, however, gendering them is ridiculous; might as well insist that your pair of socks are male and female.  Without the ability to breed, AND no visual difference between the 'genders', what exactly does anyone get out of it?  It's kind of silly, and possibly a bit of extra bother to the people who feel they absolutely have to collect every variation of dragon (instead of having to catch X Papers, they now have to catch 3X Papers), and I don't really see the point.

You know, if this site were a game where one collects socks, then it would make perfect sense for them to have no genders regardless of the type But the thing is, it's Dragon Cave and it's about collecting dragons. Papers are not even classified as "creatures", unlike Chickens or Dinos - they are dragons, and they are almost like living dragons except the fact they cannot breed, according to their description. Seeing that in addition to that there are many other dragons that do not have gender dimorphism, I do not see how Papers don't deserve genders.

 

Guardians of Nature cannot breed and have no gender dimorphism, and yet they have genders. What exactly does one get out of it? ^^ Let alone that one doesn't get anything out of "joke" breeds at all: no matter if your scroll has a Chicken or not, it doesn't enhance your in-game abilities and pretty much serves no purpose.

 

 

Talking about the "in-universe Pink BSA explanation", could anyone please post some kind of reference to that? I mean, I believe those who say that, but I'd just like to know where that information comes from, because I've never read it anywhere myself. Maybe I've missed it in some official post/section like the FAQ or on-site "Help". =)

Edited November 5, 2013 by ZzelaBusya

[mblansett]

The only way I could see this being a reasonable idea is if dimorphism was also introduced, which I understand is not being proposed. 

 

What distinguishes a "female" paper doll from a "male" paper doll (or, for that matter, a male electric connector from a female)?  These things don't have biological gender, but they are identifiable as two separate categories of a single thing, based on... appearance.  If Paper dragons were shaped/folded in different ways to reflect the gender differences of 'real' dragons, yes, it'd make sense that some people would distinguish them on that basis.

 

Since all Paper dragons look exactly the same, however, gendering them is ridiculous; might as well insist that your pair of socks are male and female.  Without the ability to breed, AND no visual difference between the 'genders', what exactly does anyone get out of it?  It's kind of silly, and possibly a bit of extra bother to the people who feel they absolutely have to collect every variation of dragon (instead of having to catch X Papers, they now have to catch 3X Papers), and I don't really see the point.

 

Plus, as others have noted, in-universe explanations for how Pinks influence eggs doesn't work on something that has no biological basis.

Ok one: I like the idea, two: I use to play with a doll that you could not tell apart, but I name one boy name and one girl name, I draw creatures and they look alike with no gender hint, but they were gender, and three: if you watch Pokemon you can't tell male Pokemon from female Pokemon , so there even cartoon that does this, and in real life you can't always tell a male fish from female fish as well as other animals. This is a game after all so why the debate about if something alive or not alive as a reason not to gender, magic have a crazy unpredictable effect.

 

 

You know, if this site were a game where one collects socks, then it would make perfect sense for them to have no genders regardless of the type But the thing is, it's Dragon Cave and it's about collecting dragons. Papers are not even classified as "creatures", unlike Chickens or Dinos - they are dragons, and they are almost like living dragons except the fact they cannot breed, according to their description. Seeing that in addition to that there are many other dragons that do not have gender dimorphism, I do not see how Papers don't deserve genders.

 

lol I think I know what game you are playing (unicreature) becuase I play it too.

Edited November 8, 2013 by mblansett

[Fiona]

they are almost like living dragons

 

In point of fact, Paper dragons, by definition, must be living dragons. How do we know?

1. They grow. - they hatch from eggs into hatchlings, which then grow to mature hatchlings, which then grow to adults.

2. They eat. - "views" constitute food for our dragons, in essence. In as much as our other dragons "eat" papers also do so.

3. They renew their cells. - logic dictates that everything either renews itself or deteriorates. Have you observed a non-living piece of paper that's been sitting around for a few decades? It's yellowed, brittle and tattered. Have you noticed your paper dragons getting yellowed, brittle or tattered? No? They must have some mechanism for renewing their substance, just as flesh and blood dragons renew their cells through food intake.

4. They reproduce. "Wait!" you say. "But they can't breed!" Yeah? Well then, where did the paper eggs we catch in the cave come from? Unless you think there's some mad wizard in a tower somewhere churning out fresh paper eggs for us, of course they breed in the wild. I'm not sure what the explanation is for why they don't breed in captivity, but it's fairly obvious that they do breed or we wouldn't have any more eggs, which grow into new paper dragons.

 

So, just because they were made from enchanted paper doesn't mean they aren't alive.

[lainey_lane03]

I like this idea! It's been a conversation that's been had as long as I've been around and I don't see why they shouldn't have genders especially since they once did. Perhaps it was at request of the spriter in which case I don't believe it will be reversed. But I do like the idea and support it

[edwardelricfreak]

In point of fact, Paper dragons, by definition, must be living dragons. How do we know?

1. They grow. - they hatch from eggs into hatchlings, which then grow to mature hatchlings, which then grow to adults.

2. They eat. - "views" constitute food for our dragons, in essence. In as much as our other dragons "eat" papers also do so.

3. They renew their cells. - logic dictates that everything either renews itself or deteriorates. Have you observed a non-living piece of paper that's been sitting around for a few decades? It's yellowed, brittle and tattered. Have you noticed your paper dragons getting yellowed, brittle or tattered? No? They must have some mechanism for renewing their substance, just as flesh and blood dragons renew their cells through food intake.

4. They reproduce. "Wait!" you say. "But they can't breed!" Yeah? Well then, where did the paper eggs we catch in the cave come from? Unless you think there's some mad wizard in a tower somewhere churning out fresh paper eggs for us, of course they breed in the wild. I'm not sure what the explanation is for why they don't breed in captivity, but it's fairly obvious that they do breed or we wouldn't have any more eggs, which grow into new paper dragons.

 

So, just because they were made from enchanted paper doesn't mean they aren't alive.

"Paper dragons are not truly living creatures. They are pieces of parchment enchanted by magic...The only place where their behavior differs is breeding: paper dragons cannot breed."

 

They aren't living dragons at all. They are magical creatures. They probably grow and renew their "cells" by obtaining more paper. And they don't breed. There probably IS a mad wizard somewhere churning them out. Since they are enchanted, it means magic is involved. They also may be able to take other pieces of paper and, instead of adding them to their body, fold them up to make eggs. The enchantment still rubs off and is imbued in the paper for the egg.

 

Sorry Fi, but Paper description basically proves all of those points wrong. :c

 

That said, I don't see why they can't have genders! It is said they behave almost like dragons, which means they may also exhibit gender roles of their species.

 

Of course, if Papers get genders, Cheeses should, too. o3o

[Fiona]

*grumble* But the descccription is wrong.

 

I never have liked that part. I just can't buy the mad wiz in the tower theory for why there are always eggs available.

 

I could buy the "folding an egg which imparts magic through their own magical force" argument. Except explain why our dragons don't fold eggs for us. And where they get the paper. (or parchment, to be exactly accurate.)

 

(Yes, I'm aware of the BSA proposal. In fact, if I ever get around to it I'll repost what the original for what proposal was. The one that's there isn't the one I first suggested in the "BSA suggestions thread from before the BSA section of the forum.)

Edited November 23, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[edwardelricfreak]

I know, I don't like the wizard theory either. Maybe pieces of parchment around heavily magic-saturated areas become enchanted and sentient after a while? Or something.

 

I actually really like the BSA for Papers that's essentially like breeding them (I think that's what it is). I know there are orgami-like BSAs proposed, but I think one of the BSAs is for the Papers to fold some parchment to make an egg, so it could reproduce.

 

Why don't ours fold eggs for us already? Maybe because they're stingy and we only give them enough parchment for their upkeep.

[ZzelaBusya]

Thank you for the comments, guys! =) My, I keep forgetting to post here, I reply to the points mentally and consider myself done with it

 

You know, if this site were a game where one collects socks, then it would make perfect sense for them to have no genders regardless of the type

lol I think I know what game you are playing (unicreature) becuase I play it too.

LOL! No, actually I am not, had too google that to find out what you're talking about! I see now, that's funny

 

I use to play with a doll that you could not tell apart, but I name one boy name and one girl name, I draw creatures and they look alike with no gender hint, but they were gender, and three: if you watch Pokemon you can't tell male Pokemon from female Pokemon , so there even cartoon that does this, and in real life you can't always tell a male fish from female fish as well as other animals. This is a game after all so why the debate about if something alive or not alive as a reason not to gender, magic have a crazy unpredictable effect.

That's a good point. *nods*

 

 

 

@breeding in the wild

 

Fiona BlueFire, I actually have to go with edwardelricfreak on this one, for the simple reason that the info concerning Papers and their breeding ability (or rather, the lack thereof) is stated in their official description

But apart from that, yes, I have to agree that Papers are lifelike, and therefore they may have a personality, identity, some sort of special behavior traits that make one Paper different from another, and I don't see why some of those characteristics cannot speak for a certain "gender". :3

 

 

 

I like this idea! It's been a conversation that's been had as long as I've been around and I don't see why they shouldn't have genders especially since they once did. Perhaps it was at request of the spriter in which case I don't believe it will be reversed. But I do like the idea and support it

Yup, if it was the spriter's initiative, it certainly makes it very unlikely that this change will happen. I would actually love to hear what the exact reasons for their loss of gender were, whose idea it was and so on. Unfortunately the artist hasn't been on DC for a very long time, from what I know, I'd be interested in hearing what they think

 

 

Of course, if Papers get genders, Cheeses should, too. o3o

This isn't a part of this suggestion (one of the reasons can be seen in my signature/on my scroll I guess! ), haha, but yeah, if Cheeses got genders I'd certainly not throw a tantrum

 

 

*grumble* But the descccription is wrong.

Aww *hugs*

 

Hmm, I've never given it too much thought actually, but, to be honest, I guess I'm quite okay with the "mad wizard" theory, or "mad wizards" if it makes more sense If that's their origin, then it doesn't really change the whole concept in my eyes, Papers are still the same Papers, magical creatures that are "almost alive", no matter who exactly created them.

Edited December 17, 2013 by ZzelaBusya

[TJ09]

The site's label for "gender" is actually biological sex. Papers do not have such a concept. They can have whatever gender identity they want--give them male or female names, describe them using whichever pronoun you prefer (and if your description gets rejected for gender pronouns, yell at the mods).

 

But I don't see a need to re-introduce biological concepts to a non-biological creature.