ANSWERED:Tags - Tagging Dragons (Multiple Times)

[olympe]

^^ That's exactly what I'd like to have. If you only want to apply one tag to each dragon, you'll get the same result as with tabs. If you insist, we could probably even use tabs for the various tags we created instead of the drop-down menu, and you have exactly what you want - with the one difference to Magistream that everything is also shown on the main scroll. And we (who prefer tags) also have exactly what we want.

 

Win-win, anyone?

[brairtrainer]

^^ That's exactly what I'd like to have. If you only want to apply one tag to each dragon, you'll get the same result as with tabs. If you insist, we could probably even use tabs for the various tags we created instead of the drop-down menu, and you have exactly what you want - with the one difference to Magistream that everything is also shown on the main scroll. And we (who prefer tags) also have exactly what we want.

 

Win-win, anyone?

Olympe, that sounds like a wonderful way to make everything work. That is if something has changed and tabs would be codeable (I think I read somewhere that the coding would be difficult and there fore not do able ta this time). Maybe if we put in the tags first and then when all the bugs are gone from that add tab coding?

[Amazon_warrior]

^^ That's exactly what I'd like to have. If you only want to apply one tag to each dragon, you'll get the same result as with tabs. If you insist, we could probably even use tabs for the various tags we created instead of the drop-down menu, and you have exactly what you want - with the one difference to Magistream that everything is also shown on the main scroll. And we (who prefer tags) also have exactly what we want.

 

Win-win, anyone?

Me likey! Though I think briartrainer makes a good point about working out the kinks with tags before trying to add tabs.

 

The only danger of saying "we" here is that "we" in this instance actually just means "TJ" - and it depends on how much coding he wants to do.

[olympe]

Well, if coding tabs is so hard to do, you can always put a number of links to each of your tagged groups on top of your scroll - instead of links with a nice graphic around them that declares them to be tabs. It's pretty much the same thing, just looking different. (Of course, I feel that a drop-down menu would still be better in this case, if only because it basically does the same thing, yet the page doesn't get cluttered as badly - but once again, someone might feel that there is a vital difference.)

[whitebaron]

@whitebaron:  That is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, thank you.    Do you mind if I add your images to the first post?

no, just go ahead! (but link to my post or include my comments )

 

 

I believe there are some problems to why TJ would not want tabs:

 

1) most webpages use just javascript to implement this, which is the same as loading the full page for the server, then filtering it just for the display.

 

2) Dragcave uses almost no javascript (only notable exception is ads and custom sort). While I believe this to be outdated, many people still dislike javascript. In order to do something like magistream smoothly, one has to use javascript excessively.

 

3) Coding tabs itself would not be the problem. I assume the major problem would be to reorganise the database-model behind it for each tab having its own sorting. Sort order is probably linked directly to a dragon, like the numbers shown in legacy custom sort. In order to enable custom sorting in tabs, the whole code for sorting would probably have to be coded again. All old data would have to be transferred into the new sorting system. This is the kind of migration I'd usually tell our customers to either pay double the costs, or forget it. It's most of the time not worth the hassle and problems that come with changing such a basic part. For a free gaming site, I'd say absolutely no, as this could alienate the whole userbase if there is just a SINGLE error which leads to data-loss...

 

 

[Amazon_warrior]

I believe there are some base censors on names, but it largely relies on users/mods reporting the names to TJ.

 

<snip>

 

I'm for private because no one requests dragons from me anyway and the organization is just for me. Pro is that it would allow for complete customization. Con for those in your situation would be, as you said, now others can't use it. So if we go non-private, pro is that others can now see it but the con is that it may require additional moderation.

 

But I guess I should ask to clear up what type of moderation we're talking about here? I'm fine if it's 'report it when you see it' like names. It would definitely complicate things and I don't think it would be necessary to go the description route and make them approved by a mod first.

 

I'm for private because that's what I would use my tabs for. My scroll is sorted how I want others to see it. The tabs (or tags if that's what we would end up with) would be for my purposes only. I suppose choosing whether these or private or public under account settings would make everyone happy, but I think suggestions go a little overboard on 'well just make it optional' to compromise on everything. Though this is probably a better situation for this than 3/4 of the situations I see it applied to.

Tags should definitely have the same "report as ye find" system as names, then. I never imagined that they would need to be as heavily moderated as descriptions, honestly - that would just create needless work for the mods in question and frustration for users having to wait for their tags to be okayed, neither of which was my intention for this suggestion! The whole point was to have something simple(ish) to implement and simple to operate and maintain. I liked the suggestion that someone made about inappropriate tags causing the loss of the ability to use tags (for a repeated infraction, maybe removal of all custom tags?).

 

 

The public/private tags thing is quite a personal choice, similar in my view to whether or not a player shows their name on their scroll or hides all their adults. Though maybe if they do the latter then any tags they create are private by default? In all the above cases, it's a question of how easy the player wants to make it for others to browse their scroll - personally I'm happy to make it as easy as possible on my own scroll, but others don't want the hassle for whatever reason and I can respect that. I like whitebaron's suggestion of having a central system to set up tags where individual tags could be set as public or private - that's considerably more flexibility than my hand-wavy idea had!

 

 

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@whitebaron: Thanks! I've quoted your post in the first post.

 

 

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General aside: I'm not sure how much I want to wade into the tags vs. tabs debate, in all honesty. People are always going to have their personal preferences either way, and I can certainly why tabs are appealing. This suggestion was for a tagging system though, so I'd prefer that the discussion reflect that. It's not a perfect solution to DC's sorting problems (which definitely exist) and it will not please ALL the people, but then I never claimed that it would - that's why there's a poll.

[Cheystar]

I love the sorting idea. As for javascript, it will be the norm when HTML5 breaks through (yes, it's already begun - it will come through long before the 2020 date - don't kid yourselves). Javascript will be the standard, so whether we like it or not, it's not going anywhere.

 

But that being said, I love what whitebaron has with the sorting - this would be an awesome upgrade.

I am a Magistream member, and although I like the tabs (although you can't delete or rename and limited to 50, I believe), I like this way of sorting much better for the amount of dragons we have on our scrolls.

 

Totally on board.

[Ninetails]

Yes! I would absolutely love these! Especially the describe/pending/rejected one! This would help out a lot since I have described many dragons, many of which I don't remember describing. I'd also love the Cave-

 

Oh screw it, I love them all. :B

[Obscure_Trash]

Bump.

[StormWizard212]

I'd really love to have some kind of specific sorting function on my scroll, be it tabs or tags. I'm not really partial to either, to be honest, I just want to sort my dragons a bit more specifically!

 

These are the features that I'd want to see in tags though. If any of these weren't the case, then I wouldn't really want the feature.

 

-- Unlimited amount of tags and unlimited amount of dragons per tag. So that you could have a new one for each lineage project, etc.

-- Dragons can have multiple tags (eg. CB as well as a lineage project)

-- You can determine which of your tags are public and which are private.

 

I think there was something else, but I can't remember now.

 

I also think that whitebaron's ideas about the interface are great.

[brairtrainer]

I would like some sort of limit if it drains the server, but the limit should be so high that it would be hard to get (ex 25 if anyone can sort their dragon into 25 and still need room for tags then they need to pick and choose because that dragon is pretty much all over the place) but thats my opinion

[StormWizard212]

I would like some sort of limit if it drains the server, but the limit should be so high that it would be hard to get (ex 25 if anyone can sort their dragon into 25 and still need room for tags then they need to pick and choose because that dragon is pretty much all over the place) but thats my opinion

Maybe it's something that could be relative to your trophy level or the number of dragons you've got? If you've only got 100 dragons, you wouldn't have many tags available. But if you have 1000, you'd have more.

[Ashywolf]

I'd like this if its possible.

[Chanilove]

Overall, I really love this idea. Despite being OCD my scroll uses a default sort because I wouldn't know where to begin with a custom one. The majority of my dragons would fit into multiple categories and I would just frustrate myself trying to pick between them all. It's been a constant annoyance to me for a very long time. I would be very happy to see this implemented.

 

I do understand Sock's preference for folders, though, even though I'm a programmer myself. While they're the same thing in programming, they are aesthetically completely different. I like both of them depending on what they're being used for. For example, I would go insane if I had to use tags for all my computer files, but I love tags for Gmail.

 

As mentioned before, the only real difference is the look and feel. I think that should probably be discussed now, though, because it's very apparent there are people who would vote for/against this depending on it. Ideally you'd be able to switch between the two in your settings.

 

Maybe it's something that could be relative to your trophy level or the number of dragons you've got? If you've only got 100 dragons, you wouldn't have many tags available. But if you have 1000, you'd have more.

This seems like a legitimate way of limiting things to me.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Chanilove

[GhostMouse]

It seems like tabs are getting all the attention recently, so I wanted to bump this back up. Tabs sound so limiting; I have very little interest in using them. Tags, however, would be extraordinarily useful to me. I want notes about lineages to be easily accessible, without having to go in to each dragon's lineage page.

 

Personally, I'd like to see them displayed on my scroll without having to hover or click on the dragon. I think someone suggested replacing the "view/unique view/click" tallies with them, and that would be perfect. I really see no reason for those to be displayed on the main scroll, anyway.

 

I think visitors should be able to see the tags, but I think it should be optional (you can choose which tags, if any, to make public).

[Kalamah]

I'm in favor of tags AND tabs, personally. I'm also OCD about sorting, and I'd have a use for both. Tabs for the general grouping (reds/pinks/vines, etc.), and tags for generation/lineage/whatever else.

 

Right now, I use name sort on my scroll and sort by breed and generation that way, as in reds are 00, pinks 01, blacks 02, etc., by breed that I breed for my personal lineages. Generation is marked by ABC, which means a CB red is 00A, and a 5G pink is 01E. It's awkward and not very ideal for proper names, but it's the only way i can keep my dragons organized properly as of now, as my scroll is too big for a custom sort and manually moving my new adults to their places when they grow up.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Uigenna

[DarkEternity]

As a user of Tumblr and AO3 I have to say that tagging is one of the biggest pains ever invented.

[Kalamah]

As a user of Tumblr and AO3 I have to say that tagging is one of the biggest pains ever invented.

But see, the "problem" is freeform tags in those cases, and it's only a problem to those who are annoyed with "useless" tags. If freeform tags are made available on DC, I doubt people will misuse them in ways that will greatly affect gameplay, as it's a personal choice to use tags to better sort things vs. tags for personal amusement.

 

Besides which, at least on AO3, the freeform tags that aren't standard don't get linked to searches, so a tag that is "this sucks but read it anyway" for example, wouldn't affect anything. The best part of AO3 are the tags, when properly utilized, because it lets people find all fics tagged "Alternate Universe - Historical" very easily, if they're in the mood to read that, or any other particular genre of fic. And it's up to the author to use tags to better attract potential readers, or to use them frivolously.

 

The same applies to DC, really: those who will use tags the way they're intended (for searching/grouping) will be able to use them that way, and the ones who don't will either not use them at all or "waste" them on frivolous words or phrases. Whichever it is, no one will be affected negatively aside from people who get unreasonably annoyed by how other choose to use features.

[whitebaron]

As a user of Tumblr and AO3 I have to say that tagging is one of the biggest pains ever invented.

de, do me a favor: please add a reason to your actual opininion.

Yeah, I get it, some people don't like tags, see it as a root of evil etc - but hardly anyone backed it up with any arguments that would disprove tags on a more say "neutral" level than just personal likes/dislikes.

 

This makes it very hard to change/adapt a concept.

[Kalamah]

de, do me a favor: please add a reason to your actual opininion.

Yeah, I get it, some people don't like tags, see it as a root of evil etc - but hardly anyone backed it up with any arguments that would disprove tags on a more say "neutral" level than just personal likes/dislikes.

 

This makes it very hard to change/adapt a concept.

Agreed. It seems that the suggestion topics are split between people who offer helpful suggestions for improvement or the wet blankets who dislike things for personal preference reasons and think that's enough to disapprove of a feature many others would find useful that isn't obligatory to utilize. Ah well, perhaps simply ignoring the people who shoot down features just because they personally see no use for it would be a good idea. After all, DC isn't about catering to a small subset of people who want it to stay as is, or only implement certain features they'd find useful (as if compromise is even more evil).

[Syphoneira]

I love this idea - it'd be just like the filter for BSA's, right?

 

Only you could select the criteria for each tag?

 

Would the dragons in each category be automatically organized, or would we have to enter them ourselves?

[Anna Selka]

I love this idea, it would make working with our scrolls a lot easier. I hope it gets implemented someday.

 

It could also potentially make sorting easier, that way we could choose the order between "blocs" of dragons with the same tag.

 

[DarkEternity]

de, do me a favor: please add a reason to your actual opininion.

Yeah, I get it, some people don't like tags, see it as a root of evil etc - but hardly anyone backed it up with any arguments that would disprove tags on a more say "neutral" level than just personal likes/dislikes.

 

This makes it very hard to change/adapt a concept.

=.='

You don't use these websites, do you? The problems are self explanatory:

- No search from multiple tags. AO3 added these and later REMOVED them because it overloaded their server. You would NOT be able to search multiple tags for the simple reason that they KILL the server.

 

- Regulated tags: if you had preset tags, thankyou for limiting my ability to mark my even gens and chequers the way that I want to; it completely undermines the entire point of the tagging system SORTING YOUR OWN DRAGONS THE WAY YOU WANT TO SORT THEM.

 

- Tagging and retagging your own dragons. I have 1600 dragons I don't want to click on the action page and tag them manually by hand for every single dragon that I own. If I only used two tags for each dragon, I am still writing over 3200 words - that is several thousand words more than a typical essay. Even if I ignore the page loading time, that's going to take me several hours!

 

- Automatic indexing VS manual indexing. It's not a very well known fact but AO3 is completely run by volunteers known as 'tag wranglers' in order to associate the tags to the fanworks. Sounds trivial, but there is an enormous amount of MANUAL HUMAN POWER required to make the system function. Tumblr is clever, but it has its own limitations as well. Only the first five tags are counted so it doesn't overload the server (the other tags are not used). [tag wrangling on AO3]

 

- Tag recognition issues. I am sick to death of Tumblr and AO3 and any other tag website dealing with my words. Ok, say you want to tag your dragon 2nd gen. The site has issues saving the tag. Is it 2nd-gen or 2nd+gen or if you want to be creative 2nd%20gen? And what's more beautiful is when you are searching for a tag and the search 2nd+gen brings up only 2nd+gen results but 2nd-gen brings up 2nd+gen and 2nd-gen results. And when 2nd gen brings up 2nd%20gen, but what you don't know is the fact that 2nd%20gen is ACTUALLY 2nd gen because %20 codes for a space. Think this is a personal dislike issue? Just wait until you manage to tag a dragon and accidentally mispell that tag or do one of the above. Then just try to figure out which of your

10000000 you accidentally tagged wrong. Ahhh, you innocent, beautiful people....

 

- No tag clouds built in ever. Ever labelled something '#picasso' and a few weeks later you can't remember the actual tag? Well the search engine does absolutely nothing for your memory. Also, there are no tag clouds ever because of server resources so we might as well just go in and find your dragon out of the twenty thousand you own... For those curious, there are third party tag clouds for Tumblr like the one I'm using. but if you do not know the pain of having tagged '#sherlock bbc', '#sherlockbbc', '#bbcsherlock' and '#bbc sherlock' and had to GO BACK AND FIX EVERY TAG SO THE DUPLICATES DIDN'T COME UP ON THE TAG CLOUD PAGE or didn't want certain tags to APPEAR and spent five hours wrangling the system to fix that, I pity you.

 

And if I want to tag my dragon '#doctor who' then I will need the ability to create my own tags, but just wait until some newbie tags their dragons as #Pleasegivemeagold or #HAMPOEWERCHICKENSALADSANDWICH!

Edited April 6, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Shadowdrake]

^ not exactly self-explanatory. But I can see your issues, some of which might be fixable.

Tagging and retagging: could have a page similar to legacy custom sort, where you can tag the dragons all on one page, copy-pasting all the tags.

Tag-wrangling: I imagine this wouldn't be necessary since tags would be customized to each scroll, so tag-wrangling should be the user's responsibility (if I read that wiki page right).

Random tags "chickensandwichetc.": If tags were only visible to the owner, there wouldn't be much bothering about that.

 

Out of curiosity, would you prefer tabs to tags, then?

 

Edit: By the way, Leetles.com has tagging, so we know at least that TJ has set up tagging before.

ETA: and the mistagging could be alleviated by having a page dedicated to which tags you've previously used (which could also be clickable tags), if not quite a tag cloud.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Shadowdrake

[DarkEternity]

Neither are ideal, but I'm guessing that if tagging is implemented I will die without some sort of local spell check script. (i.e., dragcave is not doing it, but my computer detects a letter as 'mispelled' and changes the letter into a word so I don't have to type or copy and paste out the word every single time. You know, like the inbuilt shortcuts on iDevices?)

 

e.g. I type 'a' and my it writes 'Cave Born' into the text field. I type 's' and it writes '2nd gen'. I type 'd' and it writes 'messy and inbred'. I type 'f' and it writes 'doctor who'.

 

I mean I love it when it works, but it is sooo annoying when you are trying to make it work and it just doesn't. It's visible to the owner only, of course, but it has to be saved to the server. >.> And then the people who are not good at technology might be like WHAT unless there is a decent GUI.