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Amazon_warrior

ANSWERED:Tags - Tagging Dragons (Multiple Times)

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My point was really that if tags were private, they would not need to be moderated and people would be able to freely do their own customized tags. x3

True. I don't see it as being substantially different to naming, though, which is why I asked how moderation of those works - I genuinely don't know. If I give a dragon an offensive name, is automatically detected by the system (I presume that certain obvious swear words would be) or does it rely on user reporting? I don't for one second imagine that the mods sit and read through the thousands of names that users give their dragons every day.

Edited by Amazon_warrior

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I'd be willing to give this a try if implemented, but I'd still rather have custom tabs/pages. I'm not against the idea, I just think it's a stopgap, rather than a solution.

Seeing statements like that make me (professional requirements engineer) cringe.

 

Your Requirements are (from what I read on the thread, this is far from a complete analysis):

 

Group dragons by various characteristics (gen, breed, custom...)

Display only one group of dragons at a time

This must be customisable by each user

Opinion varies between this being usable by the public or just privately by the user.

I prefer tabs with the option to put dragons under multiple tabs, but I can see the appeal in this and it may actually be easier to add to the site. :3

Multiple Tabs is the very definition of a Tag. Just like Gmail and various other sites use it now.

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My point was really that if tags were private, they would not need to be moderated and people would be able to freely do their own customized tags. x3

There's just one big problem with that. The tags aren't just meant for yourself to find what you need, but also for other people to find stuff they'd like to have bred, be it for trades or gifts. So, how are you going to find my personal lineage projects on my scroll to ask for dragons? By clicking on all of my more than 1600 dragons to see if they are what you're looking for?

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True.  I don't see it as being substantially different to naming, though, which is why I asked how moderation of those works - I genuinely don't know.  If I give a dragon an offensive name, is automatically detected by the system (I presume that certain obvious swear words would be) or does it rely on user reporting?  I don't for one second imagine that the mods sit and read through the thousands of names that users give their dragons every day.

I believe there are some base censors on names, but it largely relies on users/mods reporting the names to TJ.

 

Multiple Tabs is the very definition of a Tag. Just like Gmail and various other sites use it now.

 

No, because I want tabs, more like folders or browser tabs, I suppose, not something like tumblr or gmail. That's actually one of the things that really turns me off from gmail. I miss being able to actually organize my mail. It makes no sense to me to "tag" mail but still have a big cluttered box where everything goes. I liked my hotmail email because I could put mail into different folders and have it sent there and it ended up much more organized. Gmail I don't even try anymore. x3

 

There's just one big problem with that. The tags aren't just meant for yourself to find what you need, but also for other people to find stuff they'd like to have bred, be it for trades or gifts. So, how are you going to find my personal lineage projects on my scroll to ask for dragons? By clicking on all of my more than 1600 dragons to see if they are what you're looking for?

 

/shrugs It's going to be a trade-off either way, it seems. I'm for private because no one requests dragons from me anyway and the organization is just for me. Pro is that it would allow for complete customization. Con for those in your situation would be, as you said, now others can't use it. So if we go non-private, pro is that others can now see it but the con is that it may require additional moderation.

 

But I guess I should ask to clear up what type of moderation we're talking about here? I'm fine if it's 'report it when you see it' like names. It would definitely complicate things and I don't think it would be necessary to go the description route and make them approved by a mod first.

 

I'm for private because that's what I would use my tabs for. My scroll is sorted how I want others to see it. The tabs (or tags if that's what we would end up with) would be for my purposes only. I suppose choosing whether these or private or public under account settings would make everyone happy, but I think suggestions go a little overboard on 'well just make it optional' to compromise on everything. Though this is probably a better situation for this than 3/4 of the situations I see it applied to.

 

Also, as it was being talked about earlier, custom tags are what people want, so I don't really see a need to do any base tags. Just let people customize as they want.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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@ whitebaron - I think there may be a mis-communication about what is or isn't a tab. Most of us don't speak 'programming' we only speak function.

 

What I want is for DC to sort just like MagiStream.

user posted image

What DC would display would be different from what MS uses, so ignore what doesn't apply to DC.

 

The first tab (highlighted top left) called Main is your primary tab. This is where new creatures go automatically when you first acquire them. It's where most folk keep their still growing eggs/hatchlings and unsorted adults. In this image, I only have one still growing hatchling and no other creatures in the tab.

 

Each of those green buttons is a TAB.. they are labled with a name that I chose and a number that is the amount of creatures within the tab. The 4 gold buttons at the upper right are the sort controls, they are linked to whichever tab is currently highlighted. The small green button at the bottom right with the + sign, is the 'make new tab' button. MS has a limit of 50 tabs (Main doesn't count).. how many you use is up to you.. I currently have 36 personal tabs.

 

If I wanted to move my deer hatchling, I would click the gold button that says 'Move Creatures'... then my Keep/Scroll would look like this..

user posted image

 

A list of Tabs appears in the Actions column beside each creature. One click on the Tab name and that creature is moved to the Tab you clicked on. If you want to move more than one creature, just scroll down to each one and click another tab name.

 

To leave the Main tab and go to one of your personnal tabs, just click on the appropriate green tab button. The Tab will hilight, and the creatures assigned to that tab will be displayed.

 

After that, I can arrange the creatures in the tab by clicking the Custom Sort button. Once 'custom sort' is activated, you can drag/drop each creature to a new position on the list. Then click save and you're done.. the save button only shows if the custom sort is activated and it replaces the 4 sort control buttons.

 

---------------------------------------

 

This might not be exactly what everyone wants, but it is what I would prefer.

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Cinnamin, I do like that, but I have a question. Is it possible to have one creature in more than one tab, and is there somewhere that you can see an overview of everything that you have?

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I guess not - and that's the main disadvantage of tabs over tags. Because you can tag a creature in any way you want. For example, I work on a magi x water checker (Fallow lineage) as well as a skywing x water checker (Fluna lineage). In order to know which CB waters I've bred for which checker, I'd love to tag them accordingly. So, if my CB "Lakely Lady" was used for both projects - which, I think, she is - she'd get both the fallow and fluna tags. However, I could only put her in one tab.

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No, each creature/dragon can only be in one tab. So you'd have to decide what tab would be most appropriate for each critter.

 

I know some dragons qualify for more than one lineage, but each dragon could only be in ONE physical location.. i.e. one tab.

 

Using tags like you describe would be more like a search function.. not a physical sort.

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No, the tags themselves are not a physical sort. But if you had a drop-down menu like with the temporary sort options, it might work. (Like "Display only dragons with the tag XYZ". Should be usable for visitors, too, at least if your tags are public.)

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Exactly. Tags might make finding a particular dragon easier, but it doesn't help with how your dragons are displayed. That's why I called it a stopgap effort and not a solution. Seaching for a dragon is not the same as sorting your dragons, and I'm more interested in a solution to the sorting problem.

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What's wrong with combining tags with the view-option "Show only dragons with tag XYZ" or something like that? As far as I can tell, it has the best of both worlds.

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Because 'searching' is a one time effort. To see the same thing again, I'd have to search again.

 

Sorting is permanent.. going to my Darkfire tab would show me all my Darkfire dragons every time.

 

I'm looking for a permanent solution, not a temporary effect. Tagging would NOT solve my sorting problems.

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I don't see how clicking on one of two dozen (or so) tabs is different from choosing one from two dozen (or so) tags to display, but if you say it is, it must be. rolleyes.gif I still think that tags + display tag are a better solution than the tabs - which I consider more of a stopgap measure, to be honest.

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@sock: you can do with tags anything that you can do with folders. period.

 

e.g.: you don't have to use your primary inbox in gmail, you can "archive" and then the mail would just only popup in the corresponding "folders". also, if you stick to applying only 1 tag, that's folders again. all this works in filters, so you can auto-sort just as with any other emailing option.

 

@Cinnamin: please explain to me again, what your sorting problem is exactly? I just don't get it, because everything you want seems to be possible by using tags that can be displayed... The Dragons would then be sorted just like on your normal full scroll, with the difference that only some would be displayed.

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whitebaron - I want to be able to sort things into specific groups and for those groups to be permanent. I also want to be able to arrange my groups in a specific order.

 

1. creature A grows up, I sort it into group alpha

2. I open group alpha and drag/drop creature A into a specific place

3. The next time I want to look at group alpha, I will see all my group alpha creatures and they will be in the order I specified.

4. Someone visits my scroll and clicks on group alpha.. they see the same display that I would see.

 

And I would like to do this with multiple groups aka tabs/areas/pages/whatever.

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whitebaron - I want to be able to sort things into specific groups and for those groups to be permanent. I also want to be able to arrange my groups in a specific order.

 

1. creature A grows up, I sort it into group alpha

2. I open group alpha and drag/drop creature A into a specific place

3. The next time I want to look at group alpha, I will see all my group alpha creatures and they will be in the order I specified.

4. Someone visits my scroll and clicks on group alpha.. they see the same display that I would see.

 

And I would like to do this with multiple groups aka tabs/areas/pages/whatever.

tags are usually permanent, so no problems there.

 

step 1 - usually available with tags.

step 2 - a bit tricky, since you'd still have to order your whole scroll at once - let me think it over for a day, maybe i can make a suggestion then.

step 3 - usually available with tags.

step 4 - usually available with tags.

Edited by whitebaron

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@sock: you can do with tags anything that you can do with folders. period.

 

e.g.: you don't have to use your primary inbox in gmail, you can "archive" and then the mail would just only popup in the corresponding "folders". also, if you stick to applying only 1 tag, that's folders again. all this works in filters, so you can auto-sort just as with any other emailing option.

No, I can't. The look and methodology is not what I'm looking for. I also find tabs to be easier than tags. The setup is easier and requires less work for me.

 

I'm not sure why I need to be convinced that tags are as good as tabs when I haven't said no to this idea. My personal preference is tabs and it will probably always be tabs. As I said earlier, I can see that this would probably be easier to add to DC and can see all the user support for it and so isn't a bad option. I would just prefer tabs, as linked in my earlier post.

 

We're basically debating my personal preferences here, though, lol.

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After reading through all the posts, I'd prefer tags to tabs. I'd also prefer if tags were implemented to have at least some of them to be standard tags rather than customized by each user and I'd prefer that they not be displayed to those who visit my scroll (so as long as that part was optional I'd be happy).

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No, I can't. The look and methodology is not what I'm looking for. I also find tabs to be easier than tags. The setup is easier and requires less work for me.

Technically speaking:

  • FOLDERS are a FEATURE-SUBSET from TAGS.
  • Look and Feel is interchangeable, thus not a good idea to talk about when discussing features. [1]
  • Methodology+Ease of Use: Either an excuse to not want to learn something new, or another instance of the Look and Feel Discussion.

I'm not trying to convince you whether tabs or tags are better. TAGS are (technologically) advanced, because you can do everythingin the same way as with tabs. (+additional things, that you can chose to ignore) So the important part is, making tags easy to work with, so that people like yourself can ignore the advanced options they so despise or confuse them. this is were in my opinion twitter and tumblr failed miserably. free-form tags is one of the worst offense you can do. people hardly ever remember how they spelled it last time.

 

 

[1] Just to prove my point:

usage of folders:

1) create folder

2) move message/copy message.

3) switch to folder to display

4) delete copy from folder/delete from all folders(manually)

 

usage of tags:

1) create tag (optional on tumbler or twitter, mandatory on gmail)

2) change tag/apply tag

3) switch to tab to display

4) remove tag/remove message

 

Outlook, Hotmail, pretty much any "old" organised email-program could be implemented via tags and you'd never even know it.

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I'd also prefer if tags were implemented to have at least some of them to be standard tags rather than customized by each user

sorry for double post, but i want to keep this separate from the other line of thought.

 

standard features along with customized ones pose a great deal of danger to any project.

People expect standard-features to be a lot more thought out, a lot more automatic, and thus, almost automatically, will be disappointed.

Just off the top of my head, what clever users typically will want next:

 

* Why have a manually applied cb/xth gen/breed/eg/stair tags at all when this could be auto-generated?

* Why is there no combined EG/Generation tag, I only have 1 left to apply to my dragon! Please add this!

* Why not search the ancestry for thuwed/dorkface/... and apply the tags automatically?

* Why can't i just click a dragon and say "create lineage tag"?

* We need to have special sorting and Filtering options based on Standard Tags!

 

 

Adding Standard-Tags limits creativity as well and requires almost immediately new features. The feature I'd dread the most is "display all dragons that have at least one those 3 labels" or '"display all dragons that have exactly those 3 labels". Trivial for search/display is only "display all dragons that have at least all those 3 labels".

 

 

While I agree, that having a set of CB, PB, EG, xth gen would standardise the scrolls and tags, I have to counter with 4 simple words: this is no company. We don't have all to follow the same rules, and thus, even if the tag is the same, users won't use it the same. Having the same standard name and being used differently, is probably worse than having different names on different scrolls.

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Look and Feel is interchangeable, thus not a good idea to talk about when discussing features. [1]

Methodology+Ease of Use: Either an excuse to not want to learn something new, or another instance of the Look and Feel Discussion.

 

So my opinion is not a good criteria for supporting a suggestion or not?

 

I do not like tags. I do not enjoy sites with tags. To me, they are cluttered and not as useful. They are something extra I have to scroll past.

 

Yeah, that's a personally fine criteria.

 

This is a suggestion for a gaming site for fun. Me not liking the look of something is a completely viable opinion.

 

I know how to use tags perfectly fine, thank you very much. I still do not like them as much as tabs. We're allowed a difference in opinions. The implementation of this suggestion, based on what's been said, is not the look I want. I am allowed to have different personal preferences and base my opinion on that.

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Being able to only tag/put a dragon in one tab is something I strongly object to.

 

Scrolls aren't the actual dragons, they're just records for the players--so it would make sense, from an RP perspective, if each "tab" was another sheet of parchment and we could have records of one dragon in multiple places. So I don't see a conflict with storing info about dragons in more than one tab from an RP perspective.

 

I really just want to be able to tag (or tab) something in more than one way because I like to organize things that fall under different categories into those categories instead of just going "Well, it fits in 3, but I'll only organize it as if it fits into one category". I personally would never remember what went where and it would just drive me nuts to have to check 5 places to find the dang dragons...

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Being able to only tag/put a dragon in one tab is something I strongly object to.

 

Scrolls aren't the actual dragons, they're just records for the players--so it would make sense, from an RP perspective, if each "tab" was another sheet of parchment and we could have records of one dragon in multiple places. So I don't see a conflict with storing info about dragons in more than one tab from an RP perspective.

 

I really just want to be able to tag (or tab) something in more than one way because I like to organize things that fall under different categories into those categories instead of just going "Well, it fits in 3, but I'll only organize it as if it fits into one category". I personally would never remember what went where and it would just drive me nuts to have to check 5 places to find the dang dragons...

*nods* This is pretty much *exactly* the thought-process I had when I came up with the idea in the first place. It's the situation I'm currently in with organising my multifarious lineages and it's a right headache. sad.gif

 

 

 

In other news: Crikey! This thread took off a bit while I was asleep! blink.gif I'll have a read through and see if I can refine/update the first post to represent what suggestions we have now, plus maybe make a mock-up of what I imagine a tagging page looking like so it's maybe a bit clearer. *gets game-face on, scowls at the GIMP*

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I know how to use tags perfectly fine, thank you very much. I still do not like them as much as tabs. We're allowed a difference in opinions.

Ok, be that way. People like you are the reason people like me get overpaid that much. smile.gif

 

So, here's my first proposal:

 

Scroll with a third option to select, which would just display anything with that tag in the same sort order as it was before. (old scroll)

user posted image

I would not display tags on the scroll, as this information would clutter the page even more than it usually does with the views and clicks.

 

On the Dragons page, there is enough space to display the tags. (old view)

user posted image

Links of the tags could optionally head to the scroll with the tag already selected to save navigating time.

 

Then, you'd need a new action menu entry:

user posted image

 

And finally, the new tagging Page:

user posted image

 

As a matter of personal preferences, I would not allow Tags to be entered manually when tagging, as this increases the danger of typos. They should be done in an admin-interface under your account options and should probably look like this:

Tag            public?
Caveborns     [X]
Pure Green    [ ]
Geodes        [ ]
________      [ ]

(I did not make a mock-screenshot for that, it can have as many lines as needed/allowed or an "add new tag"-button)

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@whitebaron: That is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, thank you. smile.gif Do you mind if I add your images to the first post?

 

(I admit, I pictured manual input of tags each time, with a list of currently used tags shown at the top of the page to help with the spellzors, but your method probably makes more sense.)

Edited by Amazon_warrior

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