ANSWERED:Tags - Tagging Dragons (Multiple Times)

[TheGrox]

... I think I prefer tabs to tags. I would have to agree with most of DarkEternity's concerns, too.

 

But to be honest, I wouldn't mind either. I just want one of them to be implemented, to make it easier to sort though all those dragons. x3

Edited April 6, 2013 by TheGrox

[DarkEternity]

It depends how you manage the tags, though. Trawling through thousands of dragons for tags, I assume serverside, would be about as bandwidth consuming as trawling through thousands of tumblr posts for tags. Some people can code an efficient script and other people can't code an efficient script.

 

I laughed when I saw this comment on the Tumblr tag cloud utility I was using:

 

I have previously used a Tag Cloud script by Heather Rivers. Her script is great, except:

 

- It takes forever to load when your tumblr has more than a few hundred posts.

 

- Heather's script loads every single one of your posts from the Tumblr API every single time your page is accessed by anyone. It's slow and wasteful.

Though it's kind of mean, I have to agree. When scripting, it's sometimes hard based on your knowledge to know if you're fetching everything or a little bit of something. It depends on your abilities. I've seen some great weather widgets, for example, and some really crappy ones. The difference is in a person's ability to write an adequate tagging software/API and to do it without killing the server resources. I think it would be better if someone wrote a FAN BASED script which sits on your computer and monitors for the tags used and inputs them into a word document because it would use less server side resources, but that comes against the TOS. Using that in conjunction with a tag implementation, that would work.

Edited April 6, 2013 by DarkEternity

[kerrikins]

The only thing that's confusing me a little about this is that Tumblr, AO3 etc are designed to be searched by *everyone*... IE, you search through everyone's stories/posts etc. I didn't think we were talking about TJ building a tag system that can be searched through all of DC, just that I would be able to see all the dragons I label 'second gen', for example.

 

Some of the issues like spelling and the tag recognition would still apply, but a lot of the other issues seemed geared towards a massive database that needs to be catalogued and searched, but I thought what we were talking about for DC was more scroll-specific and certainly not pulling every single dragon on DC everytime someone searches.

[DarkEternity]

Tag clouds are localised, i.e. they are still geared towards your 'local account', but they still have issues. But in my opinion, scrolls are already a fairly big database if you've got 1000+ dragons. I only have 475 posts on Tumblr. That is less than a quarter of all the dragons that I have.

 

Tagging on Tumblr also applies to your local account and what everyone else sees. You can search my tumblr account via tags and you can search the tag in general. There's also the question of how many people would use it, which I think is only a few people, so that would lessen the bandwidth. But still, it can be troublesome...

Edited April 6, 2013 by DarkEternity

[kerrikins]

I definitely agree that there are a lot of things to be considered and that it would have to be implemented carefully to make sure that it runs correctly. A tagging system that's poorly run is almost worse than no kind of tagging system at all, really.

 

I kind of think that it would have more benefit in the long run, though? I mean, it's why archives have tags in the first place - so that you're not limited to slotting a story (or dragon) into just one folder, but can label it in multiple ways. That's why this still appeals more to me over tabs.

[Spelunker]

I have some super-messy dragons that I'd really like to hide.

 

Maybe we could have a tag that makes a dragon invisible on the main scroll, but they would pop up if you clicked their tag in the drop-down temp sort button at the top?

 

EX: My dragon, King Charles, (just an example, don't actually have the name :3), has a super-messy, fugly, inbred, horrid lineage that makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I go to his "options" page, and on the drop-down list of tags, separated perhaps by a dotted line from the rest of the page, is a "Hide" tag.

 

When I go back to my main page, Charles doesn't show up.

 

However, if you want to see Charles, you just select the "Sort by Hidden" option in the drop-down.

 

------

In the same train of thought, perhaps instead of a general "hidden" tag, we could have a "customize tag" page, where we could select if a tag was available to other people or just you, and whether tagging a dragon with that tag would automatically hide it.

 

EX: In the "Customize Tag" page for my "Horrible Lineage" tag, there are two options:

 

1. Available to other users?

y/n

 

2. Hide dragons with this tag?

y/n

[Syphoneira]

That could also be useful for delicate young-uns people might want to hide from curiosity clickers, without pulling them from selected fan-sites, and without concealing other growing dragons that might be posted for trade.

 

I would like to mention however, that fugly dragons can be painlessly Released, if desired, to live happily in the Wilderness and to be never seen again by their unwilling owner.

 

 

Edit: the Typo Queen has a reputation to maintain, thank you very much!

 

 

Re-edit: just read previous page and boy, does this ever sound complex!

 

I was afraid it might be, but know nothing myself... darn, I like the idea, although not if we have to enter everything ourselves, speaking as the Typo Queen...

Edited April 7, 2013 by Syphoneira

[Spelunker]

I would like to mention however, that fugly dragons can be painlessly Released, if desired, to live happily in the Wilderness and to be never seen again by their unwilling owner.

Not if their owner has received them via BSA gifters or TGT.

 

Or if they're fugly dragons the owner needs because they don't have enough of that BSA. (Oh, pretty reds, how I covet youuuu.)

[GhostMouse]

My understanding was that you didn't have to type each tag each time. Rather, you would create your tag, and then (from either each individual dragon's page, or from a master page similar to Legacy Custom Sort) select your pre-made tag and apply it to the dragon(s) of your choice. Similar to Gmail's "labels."

 

I do not think this should allow you to hide your dragons. Being able to select specific dragons to hide, instead of a blanket scroll-hide, has the potential for so much abuse in trades.

 

Just one example, the BSA Gifting group I'm a part of has a limit for how many of each BSA dragon you can have to keep requesting them. The limit for Reds is 7. Let's say someone has 6, then picks up #7 on their own and immediately hides it. A mod for the group doing scroll checks wouldn't notice that said person has met the limit for the list, and they would be allowed to stay on and continue receiving Reds.

 

[Spelunker]

Just one example, the BSA Gifting group I'm a part of has a limit for how many of each BSA dragon you can have to keep requesting them. The limit for Reds is 7. Let's say someone has 6, then picks up #7 on their own and immediately hides it. A mod for the group doing scroll checks wouldn't notice that said person has met the limit for the list, and they would be allowed to stay on and continue receiving Reds.

Well, but as I said, you would not be able to see the dragons during a regular view of the scroll.

 

If, however, you sorted the dragons via the temp-sort drop-down menu, and selected the "Hidden" tag, a thread mod could see you hidden dragons. :3

[GhostMouse]

There has been debate over whether or not tags will be visible to everyone, or only to the scroll's owner. In that case, having them hidden would truly hide them from everyone and would prevent scroll checks.

 

Even if tags were visible (and selectable) to everyone, that still seems a bit deceptive, and makes more work for everyone. But I can't completely oppose having the option as long as the dragons aren't fully hidden, if that's the way people want to play.

[whitebaron]

- No search from multiple tags. AO3 added these and later REMOVED them because it overloaded their server. You would NOT be able to search multiple tags for the simple reason that they KILL the server.

 

First of all, i have to say: Please read the OP. In the current proposition, you would never have to spell check or rewrite your tags, as you would have an admin interface to create and maintain your personalized tags.

 

- Regulated tags: if you had preset tags, thankyou for limiting my ability to mark my even gens and chequers the way that I want to; it completely undermines the entire point of the tagging system SORTING YOUR OWN DRAGONS THE WAY YOU WANT TO SORT THEM.

Tagging is not about Sorting. It's about finding what you want.

 

- Tagging and retagging your own dragons. I have 1600 dragons I don't want to click on the action page and tag them manually by hand for every single dragon that I own. If I only used two tags for each dragon, I am still writing over 3200 words - that is several thousand words more than a typical essay. Even if I ignore the page loading time, that's going to take me several hours!

Any new system to the page, whatever it is (new customized sort options, tabs, tags) will mean one-time work to people who actually want to use them. That's the nature of the beast. At least you would not have to retype the words. A master page as proposed though, to tag multiple dragons at once, would be a great idea though. Will bring up a new prototype for that and ask amazon to add it to the OP.

 

- Automatic indexing VS manual indexing. It's not a very well known fact but AO3 is completely run by volunteers known as 'tag wranglers' in order to associate the tags to the fanworks.

That's totally not applicable to DC. We don't want to organise others scrolls, we dont need to find anything on others scrolls if they dont want us to. So it is all up to the individual user. While yes, some tags could be automated (CB, lineaged), others are totally up to the user, and automation is of only limited use, because what if i want to tag my CBs differently?

 

- Tag recognition issues. I am sick to death of Tumblr and AO3 and any other tag website dealing with my words.

see above or OP, no freeform tags, it is not necessary for DC.

 

- No tag clouds built in ever. Ever labelled something '#picasso' and a few weeks later you can't remember the actual tag?

No freeform tags in current proposition, and a pulldown with all your tags. Problem solved before you even mentioned it.

 

And if I want to tag my dragon '#doctor who' then I will need the ability to create my own tags, but just wait until some newbie tags their dragons as #Pleasegivemeagold or #HAMPOEWERCHICKENSALADSANDWICH!

And whats the problem with that? Their scroll, their tags, noone will ever actually search for that unless they want something from said newbie.

 

 

 

Also, tumblers as well as AO3s performance problems come from always searching the full website with a full-text-based search. This proposition is more akin to GMAIL, where you only search one account at once. i've never heard of them having performance issues.

[olympe]

Personally, I think that custom tags are a must if this is going to work. Sure, many players will need tags like CB, breeding project and a couple of others - like number of generation, type of lineage (checker, even-gen, stairstep, staircase, other) - but that alone doesn't help all that much. If you have 1000+ dragons and a number of different breeding projects with often unique names, pre-made tags just don't do the trick.

[Shadowdrake]

This suggestion does allow custom tags, except it has a dropdown menu consisting of all the tags you have instead of making you retype tags, which prevents misspellings and other silly errors. It's actually very well thought out. I might also suggest, though, an option that says New Tag and lets you type in a new tag right there, which is then integrated into the current tag menu.

[whitebaron]

Personally, I think that custom tags are a must if this is going to work. Sure, many players will need tags like CB, breeding project and a couple of others - like number of generation, type of lineage (checker, even-gen, stairstep, staircase, other) - but that alone doesn't help all that much. If you have 1000+ dragons and a number of different breeding projects with often unique names, pre-made tags just don't do the trick.

Noone ever said anything against that.

you'll just have to manage your,tags upfront, not #makethemupasyougo.

#seeopeningpost #itstoavoid #tpyos and #nonsense.

Edited April 7, 2013 by whitebaron

[Spelunker]

Guys- this is totally possible!

 

TJ implemented this on Leetle Adoptables-

Tags! Tags for all on Leetles! :3

 

Why not DC? I think this has a good chance of succeeding.

[kerrikins]

Guys- this is totally possible!

 

TJ implemented this on Leetle Adoptables-

Tags! Tags for all on Leetles! :3

 

Why not DC? I think this has a good chance of succeeding.

if it can be done on leetles I would hope (and assume!) that it could be modified and implemented on DC... And that would make me so very, very happy. *_*

[Cinnamin Draconna]

if it can be done on leetles I would hope (and assume!) that it could be modified and implemented on DC... And that would make me so very, very happy. *_*

And it would make me very, very sad. I don't want 'tags', I want TABS.

 

IIRC, Leetle Adoptables is a small site compared to DC. What might work there, might be fatal here. Whether one uses pre-sets or custom tags, that's a LOT of info for the server to store. If one uses a few tags for many dragons, there has to be a record of every time that tag is applied.. or one uses many, many, many tags on lots of different dragons.. either way every tag has to be recorded and stored on the server. All that info adds up, and it might just be too much.

 

Tagging my almost 2k dragons would NOT make me a happy camper. I'd rather just go down the list once moving dragons to their new tab. Sure one dragon might fit into more than one tab, but there would be a primary reason for any particular choice of tabs, and that would take precedence.

[Spelunker]

And it would make me very, very sad. I don't want 'tags', I want TABS.

Then since you are not contributing anything to this discussion other than "No tags please, I'd much rather have tabs", post in the tabs thread. Say how much you prefer that option in the thread that was designated for it.

 

If you have an idea of how to combine them somewhat, feel free to post.

[kerrikins]

And it would make me very, very sad. I don't want 'tags', I want TABS..

Who says we can't have both...?

 

I get what you're saying, absolutely, but for some of us who want to slot a dragon into all the different category it fits in beyond just one, tags would be more ideal. What works for you might not work for me, and vice versa.

 

I'd actually like both to be implemented, both for the visual appeal of tabs and for the overall organization potential of tags.

[Syphoneira]

Actually, isn't input from all viewpoints welcome here?

 

If those disliking the idea are forbidden any right to contribute input, doesn't that produce a deceptive result, in that it's made to appear that everyone likes the idea?

 

Also, legitimate objections have been voiced by various people here regarding important issues such as a potential to overload the server.

 

Should these be shut out in order to pursue the development of an idea which, however much many of us may like the idea based on our limited understanding of the issues, may have insurmountable obstacles - or, perhaps, some solution to potential issues which would never surface if not for the reasoned objections provided in the thread?

[Guillotine]

Actually, isn't input from all viewpoints welcome here?

 

If those disliking the idea are forbidden any right to contribute input, doesn't that produce a deceptive result, in that it's made to appear that everyone likes the idea?

 

Also, legitimate objections have been voiced by various people here regarding important issues such as a potential to overload the server.

 

Should these be shut out in order to pursue the development of an idea which, however much many of us may like the idea based on our limited understanding of the issues, may have insurmountable obstacles - or, perhaps, some solution to potential issues which would never surface if not for the reasoned objections provided in the thread?

It'd be one thing if legitimate complaints were voiced, but they seem to have moved on from those (server strain is a legitimate issue to keep in mind) to "But I don't WANT tags ;_;" over and over. And the latter is useless for discussion.

 

...Plus, we already have a tabs thread, and I don't think the tags people are going in there and whining about how they don't want tabs now that we've got a separate thread going.

[whitebaron]

Also, legitimate objections have been voiced by various people here regarding important issues such as a potential to overload the server.

the only person qualified to make that kind of assumptions for dc IS TJ09.

Just assume that there is enough diskspace and cpu for either suggestion, or else we could NEVER discuss anything here.

 

I know for a fact, that a tab solution would consume more cpu and less diskspace than tags. But: is this problematic? I'd need to see Database and CPU-statistics, as well as a rough technical draft on the implementations to be able to tell you. Also, there would need to be an estimate, how many people would not use the normal sorts/filtering anymore if either tabs OR tags would be implemented. For that, too, you'd need usage statistics first.

 

 

TLDR: Ride the performance stick all you want, but it is NOT a valid argument from users, as we have no insight whatsoever in server internals, and that would be essential to any such discussion.

Edited April 8, 2013 by whitebaron

[SolarCat]

I would like tabs and tags. That said, if I have to choose, I'd prefer tags/

I love tags

Rather than a drop-down, why not just have a list and you click on them as you want them and then it adds it. I know it's possible to code tags that way, blogger has it.

 

Also, I'm against a limit on the number of tags a person can have, although a limit per dragon would be a good idea.

[Obscure_Trash]

Please leave the moderating to the moderators. Users have absolutely no right to tell other users they can't post. If you want to ask a question or for clarification on a point in the post or disagree with a point, that's fine, but I really don't want to see people implying "you can only post if you post this way kthxbai". If you think something is spam, use the report button. Otherwise, if you don't like a post, just ignore it. Edited April 10, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler