Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[siliconrose]

Didn't he say he COULD do that right back to whenever and would when he got around to it ?

Looking back, I suppose so, yes. However, I guess I'm doubtful that it'll ever happen at this point.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, not as such. But retroactive change is also not OK.

I imagine any change on this front would only affect dragons very, very recently dead before it was implemented and those that have dragons die after it's implemented. As Siliconrose mentioned, there's still plenty of fake 'original' Vampires out there, which suggests that data is either deleted after a certain point or that TJ simply doesn't want to do things retroactively, ahaha.

[Amur_Rama]

Man I hope not. I like my CB-but-not-really vampires. I have family names built out of them.

 

That said, it is sometimes hard finding true CB vampires. But then I specify that I'm asking for '09 vampires and there isn't too much confusion.

[rayden54]

There is no "should be" here. Michelangelo painted over his mistakes. Why "should" you get to see them ?

 

This is simply a personal preference thing.

 

IF this were even to happen, I feel VERY strongly indeed that if a dragon I have dead-ended is on MY SCROLL, anyone looking at it can ONLY see it MY way. IF I bred it for someone (which I am rapidly deciding I never ever will, even as I plan a rather fine deadend lineage as we speak !) they could see the lineage of their dragon their way, once THEY have it - but that would still mean anyone looking at MINE could only see the deadend.

 

So if - say - someone looked at your Albert that you had bred from a descendant of my deadended Sylvia, and clicked on Sylvia from YOUR lineage page, they would only see the deadend. Because Sylvia remains MINE. And I get to say what you see of a dragon who lives on MY scroll.

Regarding Michelangelo, we do have the technology to see behind the top layer of paint now. Whether we "should" or not is a different question, but we certainly can.

 

I agree with you that dragons on YOUR scroll should display the way you want them to (to everyone Note: I deviate from ADP in that regard). After all, they are your dragons.

 

However, I feel VERY strongly that dragons on MY scroll should display the way I want them to (also to everyone).

 

My solution would be: If I have a dragon, and someone kills one of its ancestors, I get a prompt on the dragon's page asking whether I wish to erase the dead dragon from it's lineage (display the tombstone) or retain that dragon in the lineage.

 

Something like, "Unfortunately, x's ancestor has been killed, do you wish to remove it from x's ancestory? This change cannot be undone."

 

RP-wise: You're basically making the decision on whether you wish to only display a dragon's living ancestors or all it's ancestors.

[Pokemonfan13]

- PF13's Idea: I just had a thought, PF, and--I think for your suggestion to work, people would have to be able to choose how they want to view any dragon, regardless of if they own it or not. Let's say someone offers me what they insist is a 3rd gen Holly with a dead CB Holly grandpa. If I accept and only after I've traded can I check the linage--to find out that grandpa was actually a 7th gen inbred Holly--I'd be quite upset. So, people should be able to view how they view any dragon, with the default for every dragon being the tombstone view. You could then turn on the full lineage for any given dragon if you wished, as you said (and perhaps this could be turned back off later?)

I don't like this so much because it kinda defeats the point. One reason I came up with my idea is that people were not liking a toggle idea like you just described. I think a good compromise would be for that toggle to be available for eggs and growing hatchlings but NOT for frozen hatchlings and adults. That way you can check the full lineage of anything you might be trading for but people still have control over how their dragons are viewed. And in your example of a holly trade, say to the other person that they have to turn on full ancestry long enough for you to verify the parentage before you'll give them any of your side of the bargain. After all, full ancestry would have to be able to be turned on and off at the whim of the owner.

 

 

The biggest question is how all of this would deal with zombies. If a dragon in a lineage was zombified it is not the original dragon, but a zombie.

 

 

 

I rather like the idea of being able to permanently disable kill on a dragon [if nothing else it would be a way to protect your most precious dragons against nasty siblings], but I don't think it really solves the problem completely. I'd love to see it added, though [mainly for the sibling/etc protection I mentioned].

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And just in case people aren't understanding my idea from the blurb in the OP, here it is broken down and clarified:

• The owner of a dragon that has a deceased ancestor has the ability to choose if it displays as a tombstone or as if the dead dragon was alive. It can be switched back and forth as often as the owner likes.
• The default setting is show the tombstone.
• Any dragon that is actually dead but shown as alive is marked as such in the lineage. The method of marking can be discussed.
• Nobody but the owner can toggle the view, so the deadline dragon's ancestry cannot be peeked at unless the owner wants them visible.
• This does not affect how any other dragon is viewed. Its children are default on tombstone like any other dragon.

And an addendum inspired by Angelic. To prevent trading fraud [claiming the ancestry behind the tombstone is different than it really is] the lineages of all growing dragons with deceased ancestors can be viewed either way by anyone.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[rayden54]

And just in case people aren't understanding my idea from the blurb in the OP, here it is broken down and clarified:

• The owner of a dragon that has a deceased ancestor has the ability to choose if it displays as a tombstone or as if the dead dragon was alive. It can be switched back and forth as often as the owner likes.
• The default setting is show the tombstone.
• Any dragon that is actually dead but shown as alive is marked as such in the lineage. The method of marking can be discussed.
• Nobody but the owner can toggle the view, so the deadline dragon's ancestry cannot be peeked at unless the owner wants them visible.
• This does not affect how any other dragon is viewed. Its children are default on tombstone like any other dragon.

And an addendum inspired by Angelic. To prevent trading fraud [claiming the ancestry behind the tombstone is different than it really is] the lineages of all growing dragons with deceased ancestors can be viewed either way by anyone.

I understand just fine, and I think it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. In fact, it seems completely Bass Ackwards.

 

I don't care what the ancestry looks like on someone else's scroll. I only care about what MY dragon's ancestry looks like once it's on MY scroll. You're suggestion does nothing whatsoever to prevent someone from altering my dragon.

 

If you're concerned about people being 'deceived,' then let dragon's display the "real" lineage (with a tombstone marker) only while the dragon is in Teleport.

 

The only 'trading fraud' I'm concerned about, is that if I pay for a dragon from a certain lineage, and you alter that lineage after I pay for it, that's fraud.

[panthera1]

I've also been following this since I noticed the Holly in question was killed. I think there have been some proposals that I'm also interested in! While I don't currently have time to post responses or thoughts, I wanted to offer a potential visual for deadlined dragons. I know some here adore deadlines, and others don't - but figured I'd try this on for size! Rather than a full-on tombstone, what if the lineage view window would show the sprite, and a small tombstone icon? Someone else may have already proposed this, and apologies if so (short on time to read!), but...

 

Here's an idea of what it might look like.

 

I know this is exceedingly simplistic (though don't know how easily it could be coded, I'll admit I don't know!), and some players want uniformity in their deadline lineages. But, could this be an option to consider? That way, you can still see the dragon's sprite - and it's marked that it is indeed dead. Though it might obstruct part of the sprite, you'd still get the main body... Thoughts?

Edited January 23, 2013 by panthera1

[purpledragonclaw]

That looks like a good compromise, panthera1. I would be for it as long as I had the option to change the view back to a tombstone, since I like the way some of my deadlines look as is.

[NyneHells]

I really like this idea a lot o^o I have a few dragons with dead ancestors and I always get sad because I wish I could have seen them...

[siliconrose]

I like the ability to see the dead dragon's breed in the lineage view. Even if the full lineage weren't represented, I think that would be a nice change.

[Sir Barton]

I've also been following this since I noticed the Holly in question was killed. I think there have been some proposals that I'm also interested in! While I don't currently have time to post responses or thoughts, I wanted to offer a potential visual for deadlined dragons. I know some here adore deadlines, and others don't - but figured I'd try this on for size! Rather than a full-on tombstone, what if the lineage view window would show the sprite, and a small tombstone icon? Someone else may have already proposed this, and apologies if so (short on time to read!), but...

 

Here's an idea of what it might look like.

 

I know this is exceedingly simplistic (though don't know how easily it could be coded, I'll admit I don't know!), and some players want uniformity in their deadline lineages. But, could this be an option to consider? That way, you can still see the dragon's sprite - and it's marked that it is indeed dead. Though it might obstruct part of the sprite, you'd still get the main body... Thoughts?

I really like the way that looks.

[Pokemonfan13]

I like the ability to see the dead dragon's breed in the lineage view. Even if the full lineage weren't represented, I think that would be a nice change.

To me if it doesn't show the full lineage there really isn't much point. In one thread I saw someone posted a huge pyramid lineage that was ruined because someone killed a 3rd or 4th gen. Even if the dead dragon showed its breed the gaping hole would still be there. The lineage would still be ruined.

[Shamiir]

I like the idea in principal Panthera but it would still mean killing TS lineages a further generation up.

 

As for the other ideas, they are just shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted and really achieve nothing. There is still nothing in there that gives you a guarantee that the beautiful lineage you acquired and maybe 'paid' dearly for is not going to have a hole punched in it next week. As much as you toggle views on and off, it is never going to be 'perfect' again.

 

by PF - exactly

Edited January 24, 2013 by Shamiir

[Pokemonfan13]

True, it won't ever be perfect again, but most of these suggestions are making the best of a bad situation. Dragons that are used to make lineages will be killed, now, how do we make that not quite so horrible for the people who own the descendants of that dead dragon?

Edited January 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'd prefer it if dead dragons were simply marked by having (Deceased) replace their code/name after their tombstone has vanished. The little tombstone marker wouldn't be a big deal in situations, say, where the parent of a 2nd gen or stairstep or something was killed, when verifying the dragon's identity is more important than preserving the 'look,' but it'd still stick out like a sore thumb in elaborate even-gen lineages. >___<

[panthera1]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! I was thinking, regarding the lineage view...what if the default was that cut-off view, but the tombstone was interactive - you could click on the small icon, and it would pop up with the lineage of the deceased? That might get overly complex / heavy, but trying to think outside the box here.

 

Random example of cut-off deadline

Random example of lineage view when tombstone is clicked (black boxes optional) - maybe some sort of highlighted line to let you know the tombstone is 'activated'?

 

What do you think?

 

EDIT: I suppose, if this could be implemented, clicking on the "Kill" command would essentially make the lineage-less view the default with the little tombstone added, while the (preserved) lineage link would be embedded in the clickable mini tombstone image?

Edited January 24, 2013 by panthera1

[Shamiir]

PK, the current kills were done under the current rules of play.

IMHO, we can't change that, no matter how much we would like to.

Well, OK, TJ can change whatever he likes - but that is not fair play in any game or sport. It would make a mockery of every 'rule' that exists in DC.

 

What we can do is change the future.

Even if it were a change in the tombstone sprite as Panthera suggests, furture TS lineages can be done with that in the plan.

But past lineages should not be altered.

[Pokemonfan13]

Past lineages cannot be altered. The data is lost. [i would be very surprised if it wasn't lost, since right now it serves no purpose]

[Shamiir]

That's what I would have thought... but others seem to think it could be reinstated...???

[Pokemonfan13]

Dunno. I guess people are being a little too optimistic about how much something like what has been suggested here can do. Or they're using examples in the past to say how useful it could be in the future.

[HeatherMarie]

... If past lineages can't be altered, what's the point of this suggestion? The OP specifies a Holly dragon that was killed. If things like that (and Dorkfaces being killed, I especially hate that) can't be altered, I really don't see the reason for this suggestion.

 

Unless the suggestion is based purely on the *hypothetical* idea that a certain lineage *might* someday acquire a tombstone.

 

.... As negative as I sounded up there, there is one reason I support this suggestion, and it's something that was mentioned early in the thread. It MAKES SENSE in DragonCave-world. We, as dragon-owners, have a "scroll" that we use to "record information". If we've already written (in ink, as that's what the unavailable-name message specifies) a specific dragon's lineage down, and then an older dragon in that lineage dies, how does that dragon's image mysteriously disappear off our scroll? It doesn't make much since that we would replace a dragon's information with a tombstone. Cross out the info, maybe. But not completely make that drawing disappear. It simply doesn't make sense, for scroll-owners that otherwise take such detailed notes on their dragons.

[Nectaris]

... If past lineages can't be altered, what's the point of this suggestion? The OP specifies a Holly dragon that was killed. If things like that (and Dorkfaces being killed, I especially hate that) can't be altered, I really don't see the reason for this suggestion.

 

Unless the suggestion is based purely on the *hypothetical* idea that a certain lineage *might* someday acquire a tombstone.

 

.... As negative as I sounded up there, there is one reason I support this suggestion, and it's something that was mentioned early in the thread. It MAKES SENSE in DragonCave-world. We, as dragon-owners, have a "scroll" that we use to "record information". If we've already written (in ink, as that's what the unavailable-name message specifies) a specific dragon's lineage down, and then an older dragon in that lineage dies, how does that dragon's image mysteriously disappear off our scroll? It doesn't make much since that we would replace a dragon's information with a tombstone. Cross out the info, maybe. But not completely make that drawing disappear. It simply doesn't make sense, for scroll-owners that otherwise take such detailed notes on their dragons.

I can see the sense in hoping that future lineages won't be affected, even if past lineages aren't. I have a fourth gen even gen Dorkface/Thuwed Tinsel that I paid a lot for(and spent a long time getting a mate for so that it would continue the even gen), so I would hate for someone to decide to ruin it by killing one of the parents.

[Pokemonfan13]

Exactly. Just because the lineages that have already been ruined can't be fixed doesn't mean this suggestion is pointless. Think of the future and the lineages that will be ruined.

[Obscure_Trash]

A faded out image would ruin my attempted zombie lineage, so I don't support that as a compromise. I'd rather the tombstone all the time for failed zombies rather than a faded out image of the dragon I killed. I like the contrast of the gray tombstone with the ptredrakes gray-blue. Yes, I like balloon x ptredrakes, too, but if I wanted a balloon image there, I wouldn't have killed it to try for a zombie. =p

(Although the dragon image with the tombstone in the corner mock-up isn't bad looking.)

 

I don't expect everyone to like deadlines, especially if they're avid traders. Heck, most the time I don't really like the look of deadlines. But that's what those lineages are now. And they're done for multiple reasons. Like the dead-ish-line (although they're all cbs) I'm working on - less than half the dragons I wanted to were zombified. But the other dragons are dead now and so the line is what it is. Or this line, for example. I was gifted the wonderful black and made the vines to match. The tombstones are a part of the overall story of the parents and grandparents. The point is the story for that line, not the look.

 

As for being sad over not being able to trust people enough when they say they won't kill a dragon - things happen. People forget or they want to start over or don't realize or whatever. In the thread that was linked on how to solve dead dragon lineages or whatnot, I shared an even 8th gen I was thrilled to pick up. On Halloween, one of the early dragons was made into a zombie experiment and it failed. Disappointing for me, since I wanted to pair it with another 8th gen I had picked up, but not the end of the world, as I still find the overall lineage very pretty and I was able to catch and breed a mate for the other dragon in question. However, it was discovered there that the line was a part of the EPIC project (I think it was that one), where you aren't allowed to kill dragons in the lineage. Especially with longer lines you may have only helped out with or are no longer participating in, you can forget what you promised with certain dragons. I remember a while back helping someone out because they'd worked weeks to craft a lineage to match something they had grabbed. Their time was drastically cut down when they were gifted a near gen to what they were trying to breed. After they were almost done, one of the dragons in the gifted lineage was killed - and the dragon belonged to someone in the EPIC project who had promised not to kill it.

Yes, it's sad and frustrating when it happens, but it's not your dragon and things happen. It's dead, that's how it looks in the lineage and that's how it should look, IMO.

 

If you need special dragons for a project that you can't pick up - well, that's a risk you're taking. In order to control the lineage with dragons you don't own, that means you have to control other users' dragons. And that's just not okay.

 

DC is supposed to be an independent game, but if someone else can murder their dragon and permanently change the look of a dragon you own's lineage, that's not truly independent, is it?

 

I find it a little off course to argue that there are some lineages you need to depend on the community for and then argue for this suggestion by saying DC is an independent game. o_O

 

If you want to play a truly independent game, then you need to lineages with dragons you can catch/breed on your own. ._.

 

Maybe it's just me, but i have not seen a huge about of 'deception' going on in trades with deadlines. I've never seen a deadline egg offered that did not put 'doctored' or some such in the description of the egg and it's lineage. Like: "Doctored 3rd gen gold egg." We can't protect new players from everything, there are help threads and a trade question thread if they don't understand something.

 

This, as well as new users are perfectly capable of determining what they want and what they find reasonable. As a new user, I was equally ecstatic when I caught my cb gold as I was the messy-lined silvers. If I one day decided those silvers were no longer worth it, I could release them. If I had traded for them, I wouldn't hold ill-regard towards the user I traded with. I saw the lineage and I agreed to the trade. Where is the trickery in that? Someone scamming is different than someone offering a deadline.

 

So I don't want to see your deadline, I want to see the dragons behind it. So what? It's my eyeballs, not yours.

 

But the dragons are mine. If you don't want to see, click out of the tab/go back/whatnot.

 

I did have to comment on this. While I see your point, I don't think you understand why everyone is told "once it leaves your scroll you have no control over it." It's not insurance for whoever picks up the egg in the AP, it's because we only have control over eggs, hatchlings, and adults ON OUR SCROLL. If it's not on your scroll, you can't control ANYTHING about it, and that's the way it is. You may not like what the recipient of your precious egg does with your lineage, and they might not like it when you rename all your dragons in that lineage to the lyrics of your favorite rock song.

 

You can't pick whether or not your dragon's lineage retains its names (as that depends upon the owner remaining active and not sending the dragon to the wilderness), you can't choose who they breed their dragon with (and so if you believe a dragon's parents will be lifemated and the person changes their mind next year you have no control over this), you can't control what they name it (so your beloved offspring of "Lady of the Russian Moonlight x Agent 007" may someday become the offspring of "ROFL x Mr. Poopy Pants"), and you can't control whether or not the person decides to kill their dragon. It's a shame, I agree. For example, I would be heartbroken if this lineage lost their names. But it is what it is, I have no control over that, because they're not my dragons.

 

Yes, this is what I've been trying to say, only much more eloquently!

 

Yes, that means if you create a deadline, the person who gets your dragon's decendants doesn't have to follow your wishes (and they shouldn't have to).

 

Owning a dragon does not mean you own the dragons in the lineage.

 

Conversely, what do people think about me making the site store the lost linage information so that the lineage can continue past the tombstones, preventing people from "doctoring" lineages. To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so...

 

Quote from TJ from the Forum Feedback thread some time ago. Dunno if his stance has changed since then, but just thought I'd leave this here for everyone so we know what he's had to say in the past on this matter.

 

Ah, that's where that went down! Thanks for seeking it out.

 

I don't remember what I said if I replied, but I believe my thoughts then were what they are now (unless I had no opinion, lol). I don't think it's a gamebreaker if this does happen, but since we have a thread (two threads) for opinions, my opinion is no, please. x3

 

Actually, it's kind of funny. DC's evolved from not even being able to see lineages and having to click through individual dragons to now possibly deadlines being seen as disingenuous because of seeing lineages (and probably trading). x3

 

tl;dr: I'm arguing against this suggestion but I definitely don't think this would be game breaking or anything.

[Shamiir]

Exactly.  Just because the lineages that have already been ruined can't be fixed doesn't mean this suggestion is pointless.  Think of the future and the lineages that will be ruined.

Exactly PF.

And the ideas being tossed around by the dominant players when it comes down to it are just bandaid solutions that come with their own baggage, as has been pointed out many times.

 

I haven't haven't heard a decent argument against my idea, other than it might lead to some pestering.

I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the forum, that 'pestering' is a forum syndrome, not a gameplay problem.

If this is the only argument, then it is a sad statement of the behavior of this (and maybe some few other forums) that the behavior of relatively few players determines the course of gameplay.

 

My idea may well have faults, but it has been brushed over with little thought or input.

So far, it is the only suggestion that offers true & voluntary protection for valued lineages whilst leaving all others to play their lineages as they wish.

 

Why do you all insist on using sticky tape?

 

Edit to add:

The ability for each owner to disable the kill button on their own dragon would be, I would image, welcomed by most serious lineage breeders. Most have the desire to create something lasting and continued on by others.

It would not only protect said dragon from themselves when throwing a hissy fit in future but also, as has been stated, protect it from siblings...also from accidents, so called 'hackers' and all.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Shamiir