Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[Fuzzbucket]

But then we can also argue that lineages do get lost. And it does happen. Remember how I mentioned my family tree only goes back for sure, for 4 generations? Evidently there was a scrapbook detailing a dozen generations in my family tree, but there was a house fire that destroyed them, as well as killing the relative who was keeping them for reference purposes. Nobody could remember the oldest data, so while they didn't cease to exist, they ceased to be known.

 

I doubt every dragon comes with papers of its family tree, and that a scroll owner keeps everything in neat orderly piles. I mean, come on - I didn't want this egg and the only reason I abandoned it was because if I kill it, it'll lock up my scroll for 24 hours. As mentioned, accidents happen. Even if they did come with papers, copies would get destroyed and nobody can remember the parents of every dragon. If we're proposing we 'research' to see what a dead dragon's lineage was like, I also propose that dragons' lineages have to be researched when we first pick them up, and occasionally get burned, lost, or destroyed in random events, and have to be researched again.

 

How exactly do you suggest repairing the lineage?  Find the person you got it from and ask them to replace the male's side with a new dragon?  And what if it was a 10th gen perfect pyramid?  I hate to even ponder how many rebreedings would have to be done to replace that!

 

I think people would much rather work on something new than have to fix something they already finished.

You breed a mirrored mate, or you breed a mate and incorporate a dead to fill the exact same spot. In this case you're suggesting that people would give up because they don't want to work again, and that makes sense. If someone spills coffee on a comic page you finished drawing? Either leave it as is and work with the spill, or redraw it. Nobody's going to come and do it for you.

In Ireland, after the 1916 rebellion, the British deliberately pulped the censuses for the end of the 19th century; then during the civil war there, when the republicans and Free Staters were fighting in Dublin, they caused a fire and the Four Courts were shelled and all the records there were destroyed. Those records were never recovered, though a few bits escaped. A lot of church records were also destroyed around that time.

 

They were never recovered.

 

Families live on without them. The end. (Just saying.)

 

(I think things are fine as they are. Also just saying !)

Edited January 27, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Pokemonfan13]

Actually yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.  Records are lost, libraries get burned to the ground. You mope for a bit and then you get started rebuilding it.

 

I never said it was easy.  Please reference me to the 10gen pyramid that someone mentioned got destroyed by one tombstone in this thread. Otherwise, that's an unprovable hyperbole of a counter-example.

 

It'd be different if it were a dragon that really was unobtainable again. But that was a pretty short lineage, and Hollies aren't that uncommon anymore, heck, people were tossing "poorly" lineaged ones back into the AP last Christmas.  So blasting my opinion on this particularly silly tizzy of a "problem" because the OP doesn't feel like working to remake their lineages doesn't invalidate my point.

 

Anyone can maintain their own lineages, if rare breeds are involved you go talk to the Even-Gen people who have your same interest in maintaining the lineage, if something gets killed, you go hunting for replacements.

 

It looks to me like the lineage was done, and it was short. There really isn't much to fix. There's a Holly thread in GD if the OP really needs to find a new Holly to get a non-Holly offspring for.

 

 

The point still is. I'm taking a torch to my file cabinet, what gives you the right to start gluing the ashes together again?

Some people work on very long lineages. There was a very long one that was ruined by a death that was posted somewhere in this section not too long ago. Sock would be able to say which, I think she owns one of them.

 

And what about lineages that involve metals or tinsels? The worst breeding dragons in the game, it can take months just to get one generation out.

 

The worst are seasonal lineages where each generation is a different season. Even a short lineage takes a long time to build for them, and having to fix a death would be very disheartening.

 

And yes, the lineage in the OP is short, but trading for a 2nd gen holly is still not cheap or easy. [The best bet is to find someone who owns a 2nd gen offspring from my holly (all with bright pink mothers) and someone with a CB holly and a bright pink, get the holly/pink owner to breed a pink and send that pink to the owner of my holly's offspring and make an arrangement for an egg next xmas] You also assume that Angelic is the maker of the lineage. She could just as easily have gotten that egg from someone else, and probably did.

 

And go back to that 10th gen pyramid example, think of how much worse it would be to try to rebuild if you traded for the half that has the death in it?

 

 

To me the biggest thing that invalidates your point is the fact that we now have a version that makes deadlines perfectly safe from peeking [as long as the person doesn't breed offspring for others before they do the killing] but ALSO lets people fix prized lineages. So why not let people fix the lineages WITHOUT having to rebuild them?

 

 

I doubt every dragon comes with papers of its family tree, and that a scroll owner keeps everything in neat orderly piles. I mean, come on - I didn't want this egg and the only reason I abandoned it was because if I kill it, it'll lock up my scroll for 24 hours. As mentioned, accidents happen. Even if they did come with papers, copies would get destroyed and nobody can remember the parents of every dragon. If we're proposing we 'research' to see what a dead dragon's lineage was like, I also propose that dragons' lineages have to be researched when we first pick them up, and occasionally get burned, lost, or destroyed in random events, and have to be researched again.

And guess what. The BSA that is part of the newest suggestion is called research where you send one of your pygmies into that pile to search for the missing information.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[whitebaron]

or a really rare dragon they've traded for lose a lot of worth

spot-on for me why I dislike the reasons given here, because it seems this is the ONLY reason why people are so concerned suddenly - diminished wealth. If it had been a mint instead of a holly lineage, noone would care.

 

 

Oh: and you can't have both: either you want realism, but then you also need to deal with AP dragons without proper papers and lost papers - or you don't want it and have to deal with mysteriously vanishing lineages. That it would not be fun is a bad argument, because if that line of thought was used to implement anything -> needing to hunt for certain dragons ain't fun. lets select them from a menu instead

[Fuzzbucket]

I should say - I like the research BSA one !

[angelicdragonpuppy]

spot-on for me why I dislike the reasons given here, because it seems this is the ONLY reason why people are so concerned suddenly - diminished wealth. If it had been a mint instead of a holly lineage, noone would care.

-____- I have said this before and will say it again: that is NOT TRUE. The pink I linked to actually means nothing to me. I don't use it for anything. There are plenty of other lineages on my scroll that I value more. The only reason I used it as an example is because if the rarest of the rares can be killed (the CB Holly), then NOTHING is safe, for anyone, anywhere, on any lineage project or any trade that requires interacting with anyone else. Which is really sad.

 

I am planning to make a massive even gen PB Sunsong lineage. I have dragons from other people who would help save me a lot of work. But you know what? I'm terrified to use any of them, because I don't want to invest effort into something that might be instantly ruined. So I'm going to have to ignore lots of pretty dragons that those owners would probably love to see used for something so that I can spend extra months doing more work myself. That's pretty lame.

 

And then there are lineages like the Epic Even Gen project, where everyone who joins has to promise to not kill their dragons. People work together to make something super awesome because they trust each other. It's a lineage made of commons where everyone agrees not to kill. But you know what? Not even THAT is safe. As I mentioned before, I saw someone make a post in another thread, quite some time ago, expressing shock that one of the 2nd gens in a very high-gen even gen lineage from that project had been killed, instantly changing the look of a lineage that's whole goal was, y'know, to look a certain way. A lineage many people had worked together on for a very long time. Again, that is pretty darn lame.

 

Is part of this suggestion to protect 'wealth?' Yes, because I think it's only fair that things people have probably paid good DC dragons for should keep the value they had when they were paid for. But it's also just as much to protect the lineages that have no more value to them then looking pretty and showing a lot of hard work.

Edited January 27, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Pokemonfan13]

spot-on for me why I dislike the reasons given here, because it seems this is the ONLY reason why people are so concerned suddenly - diminished wealth. If it had been a mint instead of a holly lineage, noone would care.

 

 

Oh: and you can't have both: either you want realism, but then you also need to deal with AP dragons without proper papers and lost papers - or you don't want it and have to deal with mysteriously vanishing lineages. That it would not be fun is a bad argument, because if that line of thought was used to implement anything -> needing to hunt for certain dragons ain't fun. lets select them from a menu instead

You take some glue and stick a bit of paper drawing out the lineage of the dragon on it before adding it to the egg pile. Not a big deal. We can assume that people care about the eggs enough to want the new owner to know where it came from.

 

 

Yet again, straw that broke the camel's back. It's more of a shame because it's an ultra-rare dragon, that's all, and because a member of the lineage can only be produced once a year it makes it harder to fix. It's not like if a member of their water walker lineage gets killed they shrug and start again, I'm sure they'd still be cursing the person who ruined all their hard work. [generic "they" of someone who does lineages]

 

 

 

 

 

Angelic, would you like me to type something up explaining the Research BSA so you can add it to the first post? I'm pretty good at explaining things clearly.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Angelic, would you like me to type something up explaining the Research BSA so you can add it to the first post? I'm pretty good at explaining things clearly.

That would be great, thank you. Thank you for everything you've done for this thread, really. <3

[Xylene]

But again, this is a game. I think everyone knows that real life can be rough and not fun and unfair and force you to restart things you've worked hard on. But do we really need to carry that misery over into a game just because it's how the real world rolls? I mean, come on, if you wanted to be that logical about how this game functions then people really shouldn't be able to have thousand-dragon armies or murder the babies of hyper-intelligent massive beasts right under their noses, either.

 

The only real issue with the new suggestion is whether or not someone has the right to permanently delete every trace of their dragon's existence from everyone else's records. That issue can be debated--I've already given my reasons why I think it should be allowed. But your issue--the issue that life stinks, deal with it--I don't understand. Yes, reality can throw years of hard work out the window. But is that really a good reason to make things more difficult in a fun little online game, too? Can't people have fun working on lineages without worrying one random scroll hacking or forgetful or accidental kill or person in a bad mood murdering dragons can make a huge collab project or a really rare dragon they've traded for lose a lot of worth, or at the very least a certain nice look to its appearance? ;___;

I do like my logic, especially when people try to use an "If a dog dies I still know its pedigree" sort of counter. The way I see it, the dragons stick around with me because they believe I won't kill them, or because they think they can step on the little human creature, or because they trust me. I just led one of them away and stabbed it in the neck, then came back pretending I had no idea where he/she went. (Lol, I'm heartless.)

 

Regarding lineages, dragons are telepathic, yes? And they have no known written way of communicating with humans. That said, they probably do some sort of magical triangulation-telepathy because they're related by blood to their parents, who do the same with their parents, etc etc, and when one of the parents is killed, they can no longer do that. I don't know about you, but when I'm working on lineages, I have fun and I don't worry. If someone decides to throw a wrench in it, it's a new project to make a more interesting continuation of the lineage. The game's not supposed to be easy, after all.

 

To me the biggest thing that invalidates your point is the fact that we now have a version that makes deadlines perfectly safe from peeking [as long as the person doesn't breed offspring for others before they do the killing] but ALSO lets people fix prized lineages.  So why not let people fix the lineages WITHOUT having to rebuild them?

Because the people in the cave seem to have such an easy time with everything. Lineages are generated at a click, everything is neatly sorted for you, everything is recorded for you, and people just jump to the next big thing. This is how the cave works. People aren't willing to find a mate for a dragon; they just want everything on a silver platter. People already have it easy.

 

And guess what.  The BSA that is part of the newest suggestion is called research where you send one of your pygmies into that pile to search for the missing information.

I know that, because I was here when you proposed it, and I also proposed a way to remove the missing lineage information if you accidentally add it.

[Pokemonfan13]

I'm not the one who proposed research, but now that I fully understand it I think it's much better than mine. =3

[Xylene]

I'm not the one who proposed research, but now that I fully understand it I think it's much better than mine. =3

Sorry 'bout that. To be honest... having it as a BSA rather than a dragon setting or scroll setting does make it tempting. Not because it's necessary or needed, but because it would automatically make the proposed dragons (Misfits and Nilias...) more desirable. And maybe they'd quit being blockers.

 

I just find it annoying that lineages could be 'ruined' and nobody cares, and after I go through the trouble of breeding/helping breed a mate, an idea like this is proposed. It's the easy way out because finding a mate is 'too hard' or 'this isn't what I paid for' and people are impatient to get to their next project.

[Shamiir]

I hate to risk confusing the debate at this stage, but if I don't toss this in, I will regret it later.

 

I really like the Research BSA. It's sounds fun as well as serving both purposes.

 

But a couple of things said in the last several posts got me thinking about how things work in real life. So just in case straight coding suits better than a BSA for some reason, here goes.

 

The nutshell is what ADP said:

Even if the owner of one of those ancestors kills it later on, you have the papers that show what that dead ancestor was, so the killing doesn't affect what you do or don't know about the dragon.

 

If I buy a stud horse with papers, I have a copy those papers and it is recorded also in the studbook for its breed.

I sell its progeny with their papers, it's recorded in the Stud Book, the buyers are secure.

But if I destroy all my paperwork on that bloodline (let's please not have to declare I killed my breeding stock lol) I have no proof of what line they are. I cannot sell the progeny with papers linking them to their ancestry. (Yes, I know studbooks have safeguards but...)

I can start again maybe in some sporthorse Registry with the now 1st generations parents listed as 'unknown'.

----------

 

So if we were to equate the database with the Studbook, all eggs passed to new owners would have their lineage intact and safe no matter what the breeder of that stock now does.

But the breeder, in killing their dragon, can wipe out all record of it having existed on their scroll and thus cut the link to all other progeny on their scroll.

All the deadline breeder would have is the tombstone with (Deceased) as is.

But all dragons on other scrolls would remain intact (even named?)

 

One thing I'm not sure about is what the still existing dragon would have in it's progeny list. Maybe it should all be wiped? Or maybe it could just wipe the original breeders progeny?

 

 

*And I'm sure also that Nilias and Misfits would be great at rummaging around in the database 'Stud Book' to find lost records

 

So, just another thought to cover all bases.

[Amur_Rama]

But we aren't gluing together YOUR filing cabinet's ashes. If you want to delete things from your scroll (by killing them), have at it. However, if you choose to torch MY filing cabinet (lineages of things I own myself, and may well have paid you for because they had a certain linage), then yes, I very much have the right to pick up the pieces!

 

So I was researching a project one day, and I make my files on it, and I compile some notes together. And bleh, the results weren't what I wanted, so I tossed the compiled pages into the trash, or next to the trash actually, because there's a protocol in place that you can't throw articles out without getting slapped by a safety that'll prevent you from compiling new articles for a while. You pick through my near-garbage pile and decide, Hey! I can use this. And then you go and base a giant set of research of your own on my discarded paper.

 

But then, if I go and shred my original files, I'm supposed to be okay with you digging through my trash again and gluing it all together again because you can't reference my first papers. So now you're going to prevent me from ever throwing anything away again, because you might want salvage rights to pick off of it. It wasn't like I gave you permission to take the first set anyway. Okay, the first time, my bad, I shouldn't have left my work on the slush pile. But I went and shredded my original documents this time, because I didn't want them to be reused. But here you are, planning to send your interns to "research" my outbox when I'm not looking, or shoot, even when I am; and I'm unable to stop them. And I'm supposed to be hunky-dory with that.

 

As a side note, while I don't remember the exact dragon, there WAS a very high-gen even gen dragon from the Epic Even Gen project that got all messed up due to a 2nd gen getting killed. Even though everyone who joins that project has to make a promise not to kill the associated dragons in order to participate.

 

If you make a trade, that's one thing, and I'd be the jerk for ruining the lineage for you. But if I dump something to the AP. I don't care what happens to it, I don't care that you've made a giant lineage with my leavings. I didn't leave them for you to use in that manner. I was getting it off of my scroll/desk. So, if you're going to use what I drop, without asking me, or arranging anything, be prepared for what may happen to the preceding parents. And consider that you may have to repair damage from someone else's pruning. Considering the Holly that started this appears to have been killed for the lulz, I still say this is not the way to handle the situation.

 

But in any case. Overall, I think the amount of "lineage-damage" being caused by the occasional death is extremely miniscule compared to the fuss being raised about it. Spread through the thread and deciding to and a +/-4 for any not being reported I can see about a dozen instances where a sudden death appears to have caused an inconvenience to some particular players. But it's hardly a giant thing that requires tying the hands of those who want to make their own lineages. Because hey, we don't want to rely on other members' whims for lineage control, DC supposedly being an "independent" game and whatnot.

 

 

But your issue--the issue that life stinks, deal with it--I don't understand. Yes, reality can throw years of hard work out the window. But is that really a good reason to make things more difficult in a fun little online game, too? Can't people have fun working on lineages without worrying one random scroll hacking or forgetful or accidental kill or person in a bad mood murdering dragons can make a huge collab project or a really rare dragon they've traded for lose a lot of worth, or at the very least a certain nice look to its appearance? ;___;

 

Ooooh... I dunno... I thought random events like that were part of the "fun challenge" of DC.

 

Edited January 27, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[angelicdragonpuppy]

How would the proposed BSA be stopping anyone from making lineages they like? As has been said, deadlines would always be deadlines for people who received them as deadlines. The only 'fixable' lineages would be those where there was a change in the lineage AFTER you obtained it, not before.

 

Also the epic even gen project isn't made with anyone's toss-outs, every single dragon in it came from someone who swore not to kill said dragons. Which, as mentioned, still didn't stop some people from killing stuff and setting the project back by months.

 

And no, having someone else's random killing of their dragon interfere with my dragons is in no way or shape entertaining to me. DC is not a particularly exciting or randomized game... and that's just the way I like it.

Edited January 27, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Amur_Rama]

The "fun challenge" was in quotation marks for that reason. But you do have to admit. It is sort of a random event in an otherwise static game and it does add a bit of flavor.

 

As has been said, there's nothing wrong with finding new people to trade with, or maintaining your lineages on your own scroll if you want permanent and complete control over them.

 

And please stop talking about "worth" of your trades. So you're one of the haves and can trade for Holly offspring spawn, some of us really can't trade that well, or don't feel like wading through all the demands we can't meet anyway, and have found a way to make our own lineages with minimal interference. So yeah, I kinda frown when people complain about how many metallics and first born thuweds they had to trade to get whatever lineage they got and how they want to "keep" that worth in the offspring they plan to sell. They had metallics and DC-riches to trade for their lineages, and plan to demand the same. The rest of us either had to go without, or find some way of making their own lineages without that particular cross to bear.

 

I agree that having the work get messed up is a shot in the foot. But it's hardly as crippling as what you want to do to how I play. This is a free game, you didn't really have to put any physical real money down for your lineage, and it isn't as though you can't remake the loss. I can empathize with your frustration, but I certainly don't sympathize with it though.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The "fun challenge" was in quotation marks for that reason.  But you do have to admit. It is sort of a random event in an otherwise static game and it does add a bit of flavor.

 

As has been said, there's nothing wrong with finding new people to trade with, or maintaining your lineages on your own scroll if you want permanent and complete control over them.

 

And please stop talking about "worth" of your trades.  So you're one of the haves and can trade for Holly offspring spawn, some of us really can't trade that well, or don't feel like wading through all the demands we can't meet anyway, and have found a way to make our own lineages with minimal interference. So yeah, I kinda frown when people complain about how many metallics and first born thuweds they had to trade to get whatever lineage they got and how they want to "keep" that worth in the offspring they plan to sell.  They had metallics and DC-riches to trade for their lineages, and plan to demand the same.  The rest of us either had to go without, or find some way of making their own lineages without that particular cross to bear.

 

I agree that having the work get messed up is a shot in the foot. But it's hardly as crippling as what you want to do to how I play.  This is a free game, you didn't really have to put any physical real money down for your lineage, and it isn't as though you can't remake the loss.  I can empathize with your frustration, but I certainly don't sympathize with it though.

1) If you want random because the game is too static for you, then you are quite welcome to force yourself to adapt to lineage changes, or to grab random dragons and do something with them. I, however, enjoy the static nature of the game. An option that lets us both enjoy our particular things is better than an option that only favors one.

 

2) Finding people who will trade rares is hard enough to do without having to find a backup trader if the first breaks your trust. Also yes, people COULD stick to their own scrolls, but again, that really limits what the community can do together and that's not a good thing.

 

3) I did not trade for that pink, thank you. It was a very random gift that I got in IRC. In fact, almost all my rares are the result of haphazard luck. The Holly I have currently came from trading a 2nd gen Marrow from Holly I found while goofing around in the AP on Halloween. Most of my limited number of CB Metals come from trades with a very generous person I again bumped into while wandering the IRC, while most of the others came from 2008 when Metals were so common you couldn't even gift them. It's not really hard work, it's just continuing to play the game and slowly having nice stuff amass over time. As such, I find your suggestion that people who are sad about having prized lineages devalued are somehow spoiled whiners to be rather rude. They got something rare, and they'd like it to stay that way. Is that really so horrid?

 

But I think I'm done debating this. If people don't think there's an issue, then I guess I can't convince them otherwise. With a lot of help and pushing, this suggestion has reached as ideal of a state as it can, so all I can do now is offer it up and hope that the majority of players (not to mention TJ) find it reasonable and fair.

Edited January 27, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Draikinator]

Totally in favor of PF's show full ancestry option.

Personally, I think people here argue WAY to much about playstyles, but if we are going to play by playstyles and everyone is entitled to their playstle and can play however they want, then it is massively unfair that someone's playstyle can be ruined by others.

[Xylene]

Totally in favor of PF's show full ancestry option.

Personally, I think people here argue WAY to much about playstyles, but if we are going to play by playstyles and everyone is entitled to their playstle and can play however they want, then it is massively unfair that someone's playstyle can be ruined by others.

I've had someone whine that I changed the name of my dragon and it ruined their lineage by stretching the page... does this mean that when we trade or abandon dragons, they should display the same parent names for the rest of all time, too? What if the parents were unnamed? Should they display as 'unnamed' on the lineage forever?

 

I'm seeing it as the same principle - I rename my dragon, it ruins a lineage and sets it back 4 weeks. While it's not as drastic as killing a dragon, I've still had people complain about it and throw a fit multiple times, so this has to be taken into consideration too. The owners of anyone's dragon's parents have WAY too much control over everything, so we might as well add that the cave will now take a picture of the lineages at the moment the egg is laid and leave it at that.

[Pokemonfan13]

Names are less ruinous than tombstones, by an order of magnitude or more. A lot of people wouldn't even care about a rename, I doubt there's anyone who cares at all about lineages that wouldn't care about a dead 3rd gen in a pyramid.

[Xylene]

It's in the eye of the beholder, PF13, and based on the hate I got for some renames, it seems just as bad. Granted, they were ridiculous names, but it was hilarious that they flipped out and killed the part of the lineage that involved those ridiculous names, and then complained about having to redo 4 weeks of breeding as if it were my fault. Which it was.

 

Just as a lot of people won't care about a rename, a lot of people don't react as if a dead in a lineage is the end of the world. I'm more for being upset about renames than deads in lineages - deads make things interesting. Renames are worse, because while I can easily create a mate, I'd hesitate to name my dragons something similar to keep the pattern.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's in the eye of the beholder, PF13, and based on the hate I got for some renames, it seems just as bad. Granted, they were ridiculous names, but it was hilarious that they flipped out and killed the part of the lineage that involved those ridiculous names, and then complained about having to redo 4 weeks of breeding as if it were my fault. Which it was.

 

Just as a lot of people won't care about a rename, a lot of people don't react as if a dead in a lineage is the end of the world. I'm more for being upset about renames than deads in lineages - deads make things interesting. Renames are worse, because while I can easily create a mate, I'd hesitate to name my dragons something similar to keep the pattern.

Oh evil and blameworthy xylene. LOVE it !

 

But actually that IS a valid point. I have traded custom bred eggs with people who said "Named dragons with brief names only in lineage". I complied. But - does that mean I have to keep those names short for EVAH - as those names were part of the trade conditions.... ?

 

This is a can of worms and then some.

 

Still think the research BSA is the ONLY way to go here.

[Vhale]

I like the idea of research, but I agree, names being lost bugs me more than dead dragons. I have an epic even-gen with a seasonal that has a death in it. http://dragcave.net/lineage/OeoHG I don't particularly care. I care a LOT more that my Yulebuck stairstep's parent lost it's name. It used to be The Christmas Cheer, a name I've since reclaimed for my Holly. http://dragcave.net/lineage/rUQ5 I know either one of my dragon's offspring are worthless as far as traders are concerned though, as people have gone second-gen mad.

 

I also have a Lost Dorkface that I had used to breed and gift a ton of magmas http://dragcave.net/lineage/1qNP. Lost because it was one of those affected when Vicki's scroll got burned and tons of lineages got cut off. At the time, people found it a valuable lineage regardless of not being even-gen. These days it's "worthless" too. meh.

 

The BSA is cute, but I understand while people may feel that this would be a non-issue if it weren't for a holly being involved.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I also find name changes to be annoying (I generally avoid lineages where the CBs have short names and then the lineaged ones have super long ones, and vice-versa), but I feel like that'd be a harder problem to solve then this.

 

Gonna go update first post with new info now.

 

Edit: Added new info, posting the old opening post here for safe-keeping.

 

Introduction

 

Hello everyone;

 

Recently I was looking through my dragons, and I went to check the lineage of one I'm quite fond of and... saw this.

 

Someone chose to kill their CB Holly, and as a result I imagine a lot of people are banging their heads over it right now, the poor person who owns my dragon's dad and grandpa very much included.

 

Now, as I thought over this more and more, I realized that it can be pretty rough for a lot of people when someone decides to kill an ancestor of their dragon--particularly a rare one like this. Stuff you might've traded a great deal of rares for suddenly loses a ton of its value because no one can certify its identity. Lineage projects you've spent months collaborating on are ruined in a heartbeat. Dragons very special to you suddenly aren't so special any more when they've got a tombstone either messing up their lineage pattern or making no one want their offspring because they can't trust your word about what the ancestors were.

 

And I began wondering if there was a way to prevent things like this. Now, as I'm very well aware, we have no control over dragons not on our scroll. If someone wishes to kill the ancestor of something that we own, then we have no control over that. However, I DO think I've come up with a solution that will please everyone--a bit of 'pedigree protection,' if you will, while not limiting what other people can do with their dragons. However, a lot of very vocal people hated that suggestion, so here's PF13's suggestion instead!

 

Give people an option as to whether or not they want to view the breeds of deceased dragons in the lineages of dragons they own.

 

 

 

The owner of a dragon that has a deceased ancestor has the ability to choose if it displays as a tombstone or as if the dead dragon was alive.  It can be switched back and forth as often as the owner likes.

 

 

The default setting is show the tombstone.

 

 

Any dragon that is actually dead but shown as alive is marked as such in the lineage.  The method of marking can be discussed.

 

 

Nobody but the owner can toggle the view, so the deadline dragon's ancestry cannot be peeked at unless the owner wants them visible.

 

 

This does not affect how any other dragon is viewed.  Its children are default on tombstone like any other dragon.

 

 

And an addendum inspired by Angelic.  To prevent trading fraud [claiming the ancestry behind the tombstone is different than it really is] the lineages of all growing dragons with deceased ancestors can be viewed either way by anyone.

 

The dragon's image would appear just as it did in life. You would still be able to see what the dead dragon's ancestors were, even after the dragon's tombstone had disappeared. When the dragon's tombstone disappeared, the name would be replaced by (Deceased) where there would normally be a code link.

 

PROS:

 

1. Buyer protection: You can feel free to put your all into trading for rares like 2nd gen Hollies, Metals, or Tinsels, because you know that even if the parent is later killed, your dragon will retain its full worth.

 

2. Verification of lineage authenticity: By being able to check what breeds deceased ancestors were--and what ancestors they had in turn--you could ascertain that someone isn't trying to fake you out by selling you something that would normally be a 10th gen inbred while they're claiming it comes from a dead CB Tinsel.

 

3. Makes collaboration projects more appealing: Right now, people often decide to do lineage projects solo out of fear that, should they collaborate, the other person might decide to kill a dragon and mess up a project that has had quite a lot of time in the making. By adding in something like this, however, people could collaborate with much less worry, as even if someone did choose to kill their dragons, the lineage would remain intact.

 

4. Would still allow for people who enjoy creating deadlines: Since it would be an optional feature, people who want to create deadlines for their look (such as to create their own Tinsel lineages from scratch) could still do so. When the option is turned off (as would be the default), the usual tombstone appears and all of the dead dragon's ancestors are hidden.

 

5. In terms of DC logic, keeping the images is, well, logical: As I know everyone knows, when we look at our dragons we are, in terms of what the game wants us to believe, looking not at them but at a record of them. Since our scrolls are records, it makes sense that we'd keep track of things like lineage no matter what happened to a dragon's ancestors. If you have a Golden Retriever that's been purebred for five generations, and its grandfather dies, you don't cross that grandfather out of its lineage and act like the identity of its forefathers is a mystery, now do you? Accordingly, whether or not an ancestor of our dragons is dead, we would logically still be keeping track of what those ancestors were.

 

CONS

 

1. I don't know if the cave could store a dead dragon's lineage without keeping the dead dragon's page. However, hopefully TJ could find a way to do this--perhaps dead dragon's info could be kept in some sort of not-openly-accessible part of the site, where it could be pulled from for lineage purposes but not accessible otherwise? For CBs, this wouldn't be neccessary, which would hopefully help reduce the workload.

 

2. This probably wouldn't work for dragons that have been long dead. However, I don't think this is a huge issue: just as Vampire 'lineage' was only phased in for new dragons, while old dragons that hadn't had the info stored were exempt, I imagine this feature would only affect dragons killed after it was implemented (or within a very limited timeframe before it was implemented, when the dead dragon's info was still available).

 

Edited January 28, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Obscure_Trash]

Personally, I think it's best if we just leave things as are or change it so the information is kept and the lineage still shows behind a dead dragon. Easiest that way. X_X

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Personally, I think it's best if we just leave things as are or change it so the information is kept and the lineage still shows behind a dead dragon. Easiest that way. X_X

The new suggestion isn't really that complex, though. Basically if you have a dragon that grew up on your scroll, and an ancestor dies after you obtain it, you have a choice to repair the altered lineage. Conversely, if you get a dragon that had a deadline lineage from the beginning, the lineage never really 'changed' on you and you don't have any lost info TO repair. Whatever way your dragon's lineage is set, either unrepaired or repaired, is how the offspring's lineages show.

 

I realize that simply leaving things as-is or making all lineages show fully would indeed be the easiest, but I think that this is the best way to please as many people as possible without really making the idea much more complex.

[Obscure_Trash]

Tbh, I'm not a fan of the majority if suggestions reverting to "optional". Some things should just be uniform. I'd prefer things stay as they are, but it won't kill me if they change and I'd really rather prefer all lineages showed instead of random ones that a user chose to repair.