Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[Xylene]

Cheeze is an older player than I am.  I suspect he was inactive for a long time, since he long ago stopped being a moderator here.  So chances are he was completely incommunicado for months if not years.  And now someone [i still don't really believe it's him....] is on his scroll slowly killing off all his dragons.  [i also can't believe it was always this small, I think this killing has been going on for a while and it was only now noticed because his holly was killed].

Not too sure about this, but as far as I know Cheeze is, well, Cheeze. Someone with his name was in the IRC on the 21st, and he had also popped in on October. Either the 'real' Cheeze has been impersonated for a while on the chat and we didn't notice, or he actually did kill his holly for reasons unknown. Based on him sounding like himself, and the fact he attempted to zombify his 2nd gen holly (and succeeded in zombifying his CB neglected) in 2011, I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose.

 

To add to the conversation about retaining deceased dragons in lineages, the point of killing a dragon is to remove its data from the database. To restate what Platedlizard said, it isn't to make it optional. So there's a dead holly. So what? User choice. If Cheeze killed his dragon, you can't complain about that - it's his, rare or not, and he could do anything he wanted with it. So... do not support.

 

This reminds me of a certain CB black alt got changed to a 2nd gen deadline. That ruined a couple nice, rare lineages too. It was in many lineages that were considered valuable, and it caused a big fuss, but you know what? People used the modified lineages - tombstones included - and mirrored them with deads, or made similar mates with deads. Things happen, people are creative, and they'll get over it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So there's a dead holly. So what? User choice. If Cheeze killed his dragon, you can't complain about that - it's his, rare or not, and he could do anything he wanted with it.

Because it is not fair when people can be allowed to shoot other players in the foot. IOUs were removed from the forums (mostly) because they weren't official and apparently people weren't trustworthy enough to handle them. Now look at this. If you trade for a 2nd gen Holly or Tinsel or Metal or something from someone, and they swear to never kill the parent because it'd majorly decrease the value of something you paid them well for, that is ALSO a trust agreement. A trust agreement can be broken. I can pay someone 3 CB Metals for a 2nd gen Holly and then have them herpderp and kill said Holly and boom, my 2nd gen Holly's kids are now probably barely worth a messy Metal to most people.

 

The Law of DC always says, "ye shall not interfere with the children of your dragon that leave thine scroll." You can't pester people to breed them or name them, and you can't add them to hatcheries. And yet you can, through an action on YOUR scroll, change the entire look of someone else's lineage? Not fair! Not fair at all! T___T

 

Yes yes, "if you want to be safe use only your dragons." But that is both very sad and very impractical. I will likely never get a CB Holly or CB Tinsel. So I'm to be expected to never bother investing time into lineages with offspring from other people's CBs of those, because all my work can go to ruin, I guess. And apparently people shouldn't trust each other and work together on beautiful lineages because again, someone else can so easily shoot them in the foot. That's a sad mentality to have to play the game with, bro.

 

I still love and support PF's suggestion. If it was added, everyone sees each INDIVIDUAL dragon how THEY care to see it. Since every dragon would start out with tombstones turned 'on,' everyone would be able to see the look of deadlines and would then choose for themselves if they wanted to see the pretty trimmed version or the truth, so it's not as if everyone would live in eternal ignorance of your hard work--they'd see it and then decide if they want to view it. And if they don't, who cares? If they don't like the look of your deadline, chances are they weren't going to appreciate it or pay you for it, even if they couldn't see the truth behind it.

 

It also makes sense logically (again, if you have a purebred dog and its grandpa dies, and you KNOW its grandpa was PB itself, that grandpa's death doesn't make you forget or lose proof of what it's real lineage was, now does it?), AND prevents anyone from claiming "oh yes, it's really a 3rd gen Tinsel I'm trading you, it's just the CB got killed" when in fact it might be a thousand hundreth ugly thing.

Edited January 24, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Trebol35]

Oh My Gosh... hahahaha PF if you had explained it that way in the first place i doubt there would have been as much debate! I have no issues with that idea.

[Nectaris]

And I have yet to see a logical reason not to allow people to see past the dead parent, other than a desire to keep things the way they are. It DOES NOT change anything on your scroll, it DOES NOT prevent you from killing your dragons, it DOES NOT prevent you from making deadlines. All it does is give some security to those down the line for their own dragons, it does nothing to yours and is completely optional.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Nectaris

[platedlizard]

Life's not fair, and neither is this game. So what? Cheeze killed his Holly, big deal. People are renaming the descendants with funny and interesting names like "Santa's Little Pallbearer" and I suspect we'll be seeing some interesting things from them in the future. Changing how DC works just because someone killed a dragon is pretty stupid.

[Pokemonfan13]

Angelic, you appear to not be stating my suggestion correctly again. It is up to the owner of the dragon how the dragon is seen. If you own a deadline dragon and leave it showing tombstones I can't come along and peek behind your tombstones at the full lineage, I can't even tell if the killed dragons were CB or lineaged. The only ones that can be viewed either way by anyone are growing dragons to prevent trade fraud where someone claims the egg's grandpa was a CB holly when it's really an inbred 10th gen holly.

 

My suggestion is not a button on the dragon's page that lets you toggle the view between tombstone and full ancestry. That's a completely different suggestion, and if it's preferred that's fine.

 

[sorry if I misunderstood, but the impression I get from that bold paragraph is toggle, not owner choice]

Edited January 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[platedlizard]

And I have yet to see a logical reason not to allow people to see past the dead parent, other than a desire to keep things the way they are.  It DOES NOT change anything on your scroll, it DOES NOT prevent you from killing your dragons, it DOES NOT prevent you from making deadlines.  All it does is give some security to those down the line for their own dragons, it does nothing to yours and is completely optional.

Wanting to eradicate a dragon's data completely from the database isn't logical?

 

edit:

The twist to me in all this, the one reason that jumped into my head that would cause someone to kill a CB Holly, maybe they got tired of dealing with people pestering them for lineage eggs. No holly, no pestering. If that's the case, would they still be able to release it? Or just quit as supposedly several tinsel owners have.

 

It's Cheeze, he zombied a CB Neglected, and tried to zombie a 2nd gen Holly. Perhaps he wanted to troll all of us. If so, I think it's hilarious.

Edited January 24, 2013 by platedlizard

[Pokemonfan13]

Why would you want to completely get rid of a dragon? Srsly, I'm curious.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Angelic, you appear to not be stating my suggestion correctly again. It is up to the owner of the dragon how the dragon is seen. If you own a deadline dragon and leave it showing tombstones I can't come along and peek behind your tombstones at the full lineage, I can't even tell if the killed dragons were CB or lineaged. The only ones that can be viewed either way by anyone are growing dragons to prevent trade fraud where someone claims the egg's grandpa was a CB holly when it's really an inbred 10th gen holly.

Err, sorry, I meant each individual dragon that they own. >___< I'm in the process of updating the OP to put in your suggestion over mine, give me a moment.

 

Wanting to eradicate a dragon's data completely from the database isn't logical?

 

Not when your desire to eradicate it somehow forces every other person tied to your dragon in any way to eradicate it from things they own as well, no. Let's say you make a digital drawing, and email it to me in exchange for payment. You then decide you don't like it, and delete it. That's fine and dandy, I don't care--but don't expect the file to vanish from MY computer, too.

[TheGrox]

Honestly, the only suggestion here I could ever see working is PF's.

 

A togge button for people to see the lineage the way they want would create too many problems by effectively ruining pretty deadlines, but this couldn't happen with PF's idea.

Edited January 24, 2013 by TheGrox

[platedlizard]

Not when your desire to eradicate it somehow forces every other person tied to your dragon in any way to eradicate it from things they own as well, no. Let's say you make a digital drawing, and email it to me in exchange for payment. You then decide you don't like it, and delete it. That's fine and dandy, I don't care--but don't expect the file to vanish from MY computer, too.

That's not the same thing at all. You still have the drawing (dragon), you just don't have all the little background sketches that made up the drawing. When you trade, you're trading for the dragon. The lineages are nice extras, but that's all they are. Extras. You still have your dragon, and it's the same as it's always been.

[Xylene]

Because it is not fair when people can be allowed to shoot other players in the foot. IOUs were removed from the forums (mostly) because they weren't official and apparently people weren't trustworthy enough to handle them. Now look at this. If you trade for a 2nd gen Holly or Tinsel or Metal or something from someone, and they swear to never kill the parent because it'd majorly decrease the value of something you paid them well for, that is ALSO a trust agreement. A trust agreement can be broken. I can pay someone 3 CB Metals for a 2nd gen Holly and then have them herpderp and kill said Holly and boom, my 2nd gen Holly's kids are now probably barely worth a messy Metal to most people.

 

The Law of DC always says, "ye shall not interfere with the children of your dragon that leave thine scroll." You can't pester people to breed them or name them, and you can't add them to hatcheries. And yet you can, through an action on YOUR scroll, change the entire look of someone else's lineage? Not fair! Not fair at all! T___T

 

Yes yes, "if you want to be safe use only your dragons." But that is both very sad and very impractical. I will likely never get a CB Holly or CB Tinsel. So I'm to be expected to never bother investing time into lineages with offspring from other people's CBs of those, because all my work can go to ruin, I guess. And apparently people shouldn't trust each other and work together on beautiful lineages because again, someone else can so easily shoot them in the foot. That's a sad mentality to have to play the game with, bro.

 

I still love and support PF's suggestion. If it was added, everyone sees each INDIVIDUAL dragon how THEY care to see it. Since every dragon would start out with tombstones turned 'on,' everyone would be able to see the look of deadlines and would then choose for themselves if they wanted to see the pretty trimmed version or the truth, so it's not as if everyone would live in eternal ignorance of your hard work--they'd see it and then decide if they want to view it.

 

It also makes sense logically (again, if you have a purebred dog and its grandpa dies, and you KNOW its grandpa was PB itself, that grandpa's death doesn't make you forget or lose proof of what it's real lineage was, now does it?), AND prevents anyone from claiming "oh yes, it's really a 3rd gen Tinsel I'm trading you, it's just the CB got killed" when in fact it might be a thousand hundreth ugly thing.

So, are we just going to say "No dragons can ever leave your scroll because you might kill them and ruin lineages for other people"? I get that there's a mutual trust between people who trade with you, but if someone's inactive and decides they want to leave the cave, there is nothing stopping them from killing their dragons. I'm sure a certain someone with a seasonal project that had a dead in it was just as furious that two years of work went down the drain because someone exercised their right to execute their own dragon, but what are you going to do? Have them banned before they can finish doing what they want? It's very rare for people to kill their dragons before leaving, so I don't see why there has to be a whole new feature added to the site over one measly Holly dragon.

 

There's also the 'DC economy'. When you implement something like "Show full lineage", it makes the cave much more complicated. When we didn't have lineages, everyone was happy with any silver or gold dragon. Then we had viewable lineages. Now, people want neat lineages, or pretty inbreds, or mirrored deads, and messy dragons 'aren't worth it'. If you add in "Show full lineage", I'm pretty sure you'll also wind up with people wanting "Real" lineages - things that they won't have to manually click to fix - and fussing over whether the default setting should be 'on' in case of trolls, or 'off' because deadlines are projects everywhere. Who's to say any dragon's lineage will still be valuable even if this is implemented?

 

When I breed my metals, it's often as gifts. Can people claim that it's not fair if I decided to kill my dragons? They didn't trade for it, so maybe it's not the same thing, but I suspect the execution of more than 30 CB metals would get the same reaction.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That's not the same thing at all. You still have the drawing (dragon), you just don't have all the little background sketches that made up the drawing. When you trade, you're trading for the dragon. The lineages are nice extras, but that's all they are. Extras. You still have your dragon, and it's the same as it's always been.

...No, it is not the same. Go try to trade a real 2nd gen Metal and a deadline 2nd gen Metal in the trading threads, and tell me which is worth more. Go try to trade a 5th gen PB dragon with all the ancestors alive and one with a few dead ancestors in the 2nd gen, and tell me which is worth more, and which looks more uniform.

 

When I invest payment into something, it is because that something has a set worth to it. When I trade for a rare dragon, I am trading for something that I know is worth a specific amount. The replacement of a single ancestor--or worse, a whole chunk of ancestors--with a tombstone permanently changes that worth, almost always for the worst.

Edited January 24, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[platedlizard]

Why would you want to completely get rid of a dragon?  Srsly, I'm curious.

Because it's a lineage I don't like? Because I'm trying to get rid of inbreds but don't want to lose an alt? Because I feel like killing something at the moment and it's either my dragons or my sister? I've killed dragons for all of those reasons and more, and when I want something dead, I want it dead. Gone. As in, not there at all, forever, and for anyone else to look at.

 

 

edit: sorry for double posting.

...No, it is not the same. Go try to trade a real 2nd gen Metal and a deadline 2nd gen Metal in the trading threads, and tell me which is worth more. Go try to trade a 5th gen PB dragon with all the ancestors alive and one with a few dead ancestors in the 2nd gen, and tell me which is worth more, and which looks more uniform.

 

When I invest payment into something, it is because that something has a set worth to it. When I trade for a rare dragon, I am trading for something that I know is worth a specific amount. The replacement of a single ancestor--or worse, a whole chunk of ancestors--with a tombstone permanently changes that worth, almost always for the worst.

Yeah, and? The DC trading economy is messed up but what else is new? But that's a topic for a different thread. Killing dragons keeps things interesting. I really wish Ascedance had been implemented so we could see more changes in lineages, but that's not going to happen I'm afraid. It's boring when things stay the same, killing dragon and changing lineages that way is one way to keep things interesting. Just think how much fun Cheeze is having watching people change their dragon's names in response to what he did!

Edited January 24, 2013 by platedlizard

[Pokemonfan13]

Because it's a lineage I don't like? Because I'm trying to get rid of inbreds but don't want to lose an alt? Because I feel like killing something at the moment and it's either my dragons or my sister? I've killed dragons for all of those reasons and more, and when I want something dead, I want it dead. Gone. As in, not there at all, forever, and for anyone else to look at.

The first two are unlikely to negatively impact anyone else since they're creating deadlines to clean up a messy lineage or a "lineage you don't like" which I assume would not be a nice one, not killing the neat CB, 2nd or 3rd etc gen that might destroy someone else's prized giant pyramid or whatever.

 

A solution to the random "need to kill something" might be zombie fodder or a similar concept. I've got some at the back of my scroll, common adults that I don't breed that are there to be killed. x3

 

But I'm still not quite sure why being purged from the database is so important. Although with my suggestion it would still be purged if it didn't have any children since there would be no point to keep it. So for those who want a complete purge there would be an incentive to kill dragons that would not affect anyone else. x3

[Amur_Rama]

This reminds me of a certain CB black alt got changed to a 2nd gen deadline. That ruined a couple nice, rare lineages too. It was in many lineages that were considered valuable, and it caused a big fuss, but you know what? People used the modified lineages - tombstones included - and mirrored them with deads, or made similar mates with deads. Things happen, people are creative, and they'll get over it.

I think that's actually a pretty important point about TJ's opinion of deadlines. I remember the fuss about that dragon. He really was CB, but TJ changed him to a deadlined 2gen. If anything misleading, it was changing that dragon into something he wasn't. Maintaining that Alts had to be 2gen was more important than showing that dragon was CB.

 

If TJ makes deadlines I think everyone else can deal with the upset if a regular player makes them too.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

The way I see it, lineages don't BELONG to anybody. They show where a dragon came from, but the owners of the dragons it's descended from still retain full rights to do whatever they please with their dragons--the offspring be damned.

And it goes the other way (or at least it SHOULD), as well. If someone has every right to kill a lineaged dragon, then someone else who owns a dragon in that lineage should have the right to KEEP SEEING the lineage the way it REALLY is. Not the way it's been doctored to be.

 

"They show where a dragon came from"

EXACTLY. And what scroll-owner is going to completely erase that kind of information JUST because a specific dragon in the lineage has died? The dragon died, it didn't disappear. It didn't suddenly never exist. Both my grandparents are dead, but does that mean I just wipe them from my personal "lineage"? Heck no.

 

If we, as dragon owners, care about our dragons SO MUCH that we name, describe, breed, use BSA actions that can help them, try to find them good mates, etc etc etc, then it simply doesn't make sense that we would erase a part of a lineage on OUR scroll just because some other dragon died.

 

I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal. If it's a toggle/option, and only the scroll-owner/user can see it, why does it matter so much? Because some people *want* to be able to doctor lineages and pretend that certain dragons never existed? Fine, they don't have to use the feature.

[schmupti]

Because it is not fair when people can be allowed to shoot other players in the foot.

And:

 

The Law of DC always says, "ye shall not interfere with the children of your dragon that leave thine scroll." You can't pester people to breed them or name them, and you can't add them to hatcheries. And yet you can, through an action on YOUR scroll, change the entire look of someone else's lineage? Not fair! Not fair at all! T___T

 

I know you're passionate about this, but I suspect your delivery may be putting some people off. Someone else doing exactly what they please with their own caught, raised and adult dragons is 'shooting other players in the foot' and 'ruining your scroll' and so forth. People adamantly opposed to being told how to play, how to name, how to breed, etc., are going to see that as just as controlling as you demanding they breed for you, or asserting ownership over an egg you abandoned and telling them how to raise it.

 

It might be easier for a wider swathe of people to recognize the problem--that many users value lineages, and would like a compromise (like PF13's) that preserves valued and wanted lineages even if an ancestral dragon is killed--if it sounded less like you want to tell them what they're allowed/not allowed to do with their own dragons.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

It might be easier for a wider swathe of people to recognize the problem--that many users value lineages, and would like a compromise (like PF13's) that preserves valued and wanted lineages even if an ancestral dragon is killed--if it sounded less like you want to tell them what they're allowed/not allowed to do with their own dragons.

They can do absolutely whatever they want with their dragons, I just don't want it to affect MY scroll, which is why I think PF13's suggestion is perfect. Seriously, everyone gets to see the dragons they own exactly as they wish to see them, while other people will have to see your dragons the way you wish them to be seen. If you make deadlines, you can assure that anyone who looks at your scroll sees them that way. If you have an even-gen dragon and a CB ancestor in it gets killed, you can display it as it looked when the dragon was alive and the lineage was uniform. How could anything possibly be less fair than that?

[Shamiir]

When it comes down it, it's still about the rights of the owner of a dragon to either keep it or remove it totally from the database if they so please, as it currently stands.

 

Other players claiming that they have a 'right' to that dragons image is not going to get other players on side.

 

PF has argued that the idea of disabled kill function could lead to problems of availability of hard to get lines, etc.

The same arguments are going to apply in reverse if you are seen as taking away their right to remove their dragon totally and permanently.

 

The tone of some of the discussion here is that others 'own' the whole lineage. That attitude is just not right.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The tone of some of the discussion here is that others 'own' the whole lineage. That attitude is just not right.

And the tone that an owner of a dragon can alter the whole lineage of all that dragon's progeny, no matter who owns those offspring or what they might have paid the breeder for those offspring in a certain condition, is somehow better? I fail to see how claiming the right to see the true ancestry of a single dragon you own is any worse then someone else claiming the right to alter at whim the lineages of all its offspring, including those that have been 'sold.'

 

Look at your dragons the way you want to see them and let me see mine the way I wish to see them. I won't begrudge you your throwing away of records so long as you don't force me to throw out mine. Especially when I might well have paid you richly to get those 'records.'

Edited January 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[DarkEternity]

I suppose all our issues with the current system would be eradicated if the ability to view a lineage was removed.

I certainly don't remember those days, but apparently it was because we wanted to SEE the lineages that lineages were implemented. Before that, all dragons were technically 'CB' and therefore all equal in value.

Edited January 25, 2013 by DarkEternity

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I suppose all our issues with the current system would be eradicated if the ability to view a lineage was removed.

However, that would instantly create the new and nastier problem of making the game exceedingly boring for everyone who's been playing for any length of time. I have every single obtainable dragon... take away looking for specific lineages and I (and most other old players) have nothing to do but twiddle our thumbs and wait for the next release.

 

Of course, I have a feeling you were being sarcastic.

[Shamiir]

I'm not saying it is better or worse ADP.

It about the perceptions of those you want to persuade.

 

But will take the opportunity to say that if you get a lineage started from me, what you see is what you get. And I wouldn't mind setting that in immortality in case I die or summink. (no joke really, I not long ago spent a year going thru a touch-and-go rare immune syndrome rofl )

 

[Pokemonfan13]

I suppose all our issues with the current system would be eradicated if the ability to view a lineage was removed.

I certainly don't remember those days, but apparently it was because we wanted to SEE the lineages that lineages were implemented. Before that, all dragons were technically 'CB' and therefore all equal in value.

Actually, no. After breeding was implemented [yes, I was here before we could breed] there was a "mother" link and a "father" link, bred dragons were never "technically CB". So lineages could be tracked if people wanted to do the work, but most didn't. But I agree that until lineage view was added lineages were mostly ignored and, from what I could tell, CB and bred dragons weren't heavily differentiated in people's minds, they were just dragons.