Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[DarkEternity]

If you implement this, new values will come up and there will be plenty of new ways of having your dragon go down in value. Kill this problem and it won't stop all value related problems - people will find more. Just as some people risk having their dragons (even CB metals) viewbombed to death when they are in teleport, so too do you risk having CB dragons killed when you work on a lineage. If you were solely concerned with knowing the lineages of a dragon, then you could save a screenshot of the lineage to the computer. If you were ultra dedicated, you could reroute the URL of the website in-browser to a saved HTML of your lineage page by setting up a local host.

 

TJ has said that he can ensure that dead dragons won't cut off lineages (it was raised after everyone created many deadline tinsels and it impacted on market values because they were usually worth a bit more than a messy lineage), but DC is about risks. Whether you are neglecting, vamping, raising eggs, teleporting, receiving DC emails, naming, having IOUs made/accepted, killing, scroll sitting, fogging, abandoning, trading for prize dragons early, having a sudden mass market deluge from easy breeding and accessing your DC account from your internet connection, EVERY step in that process is risky. As it stands, having a dragon cut out of a lineage is fairly minor in terms of what can go DC wrong. You still have the dragon you obtained, you still know what its heritage is and could've been.

Edited January 25, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Xylene]

And the tone that an owner of a dragon can alter the whole lineage of all that dragon's progeny, no matter who owns those offspring or what they might have paid the breeder for those offspring in a certain condition, is somehow better? I fail to see how claiming the right to see the true ancestry of a single dragon you own is any worse then someone else claiming the right to alter at whim the lineages of all its offspring, including those that have been 'sold.'

 

Look at your dragons the way you want to see them and let me see mine the way I wish to see them. I won't begrudge you your throwing away of records so long as you don't force me to throw out mine. Especially when I might well have paid you richly to get those 'records.'

Until I read this topic, I never thought "My first CB metal has 4 years of babies. Let's kill her and screw up over 300 descendants." I certainly never said "I won't kill this dragon because everyone else loves its babies" either. I doubt anyone realized they could screw up other peoples' lineages by playing how they want to play. If I see Cheeze, I'll ask if it was his intent to screw up lineages or if he just felt like killing a Holly. (No promises though; he doesn't appear very often.)

 

TJ has said that he can ensure that dead dragons won't cut off lineages (it was raised after everyone created many deadline tinsels and it impacted on market values because they were usually worth a bit more than a messy lineage), but DC is about risks.

I vaguely recall that from 2011. If we've survived CB glitch alts being changed to 2nd-gens, fake 2nd gen tinsels, burned CB tinsel owners, and the overall yearly drama per event, I can't see the death of a single Holly changing the way the cave is set up, especially when it's not really a 'problem' per se.

 

Out of curiosity, how do you think something like this work? Adding a 'lineage toggle' feature to every dragon would be interesting to code. I'm pretty sure you'd still need the 5-character code for each 'dead' dragon... And I assume it'd go to some new purgatory, since one reason to kill it would be so it isn't sent to the wilderness to breed. No more code recycling, because we'd need to keep SOMETHING to ID the dragon... Maybe it'd have to check "Egg/Hatchling/Adult" before sending the dragon to purgatory? I mean, we wouldn't need data on dead eggs or hatchlings...

 

--Edited to clarify something!--

Edited January 25, 2013 by Xylene

[Pokemonfan13]

Out of curiosity, how do you think something like this work? Adding a 'lineage toggle' feature to every dragon would be interesting to code. I'm pretty sure you'd still need the 5-character code for each 'dead' dragon... And I assume it'd go to some new purgatory, since one reason to kill it would be so it isn't sent to the wilderness to breed. No more code recycling, because we'd need to keep SOMETHING to ID the dragon... Maybe it'd have to check "Egg/Hatchling/Adult" before sending the dragon to purgatory? I mean, we wouldn't need data on dead eggs or hatchlings...

 

--Edited to clarify something!--

I have my version pretty well thought out.

 

The owner of the dragon chooses how they want it to be shown. So if they have a deadline and leave it set to tombstones nobody can peek behind the stones to see what lays there lineage wise. Eggs and hatchlings with dead ancestor(s) have a "toggle" button so people can see what they're getting with a trade before they accept it.

 

Dragons with no offspring, frozen hatchlings, and eggs and hatchlings would all still get recycled. As to ones with offspring, I doubt it would hog THAT many codes out of the ridiculous number of possible 5 digit codes [916,132,832 if I did my math right, although since it's 1:30 AM I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong] or cause TJ to have to go to 6 digit codes all THAT much quicker.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[schmupti]

And the tone that an owner of a dragon can alter the whole lineage of all that dragon's progeny, no matter who owns those offspring or what they might have paid the breeder for those offspring in a certain condition, is somehow better?

There are several pairs of shoes to hop into here, and I'm intentionally omitting the deadlines question, because (like inbreeding) I think that's a whole separate question of how people choose to play.

 

For many people, lineage isn't so important to gameplay. Whether they kill, release, abandon, mount and stuff, has nothing to do with the great-grandeggs that you 'bought' fair and square, and you have no say in what they do with their own dragons.

 

I know you're not claiming you should have a say, but that you simply want a better way of handling the way lineages are viewed, so information you value isn't lost--but with talk of them screwing you over, ruining your lineages, making your dragons worthless (dragons many would still give eyeteeth for), just by playing, you're going to get a fair amount of hostility in response. Essentially, you're trying to persuade people to see your point of view by calling them villains, murderers and game-ruining scum. Not your intention (probably), but it's the effect.

 

In any case, the suggested compromises seem to be lost in the shuffle. Surely they can be tweaked and hammered into something that works for the community as a whole. Like PF13's option for scroll owners to decide whether their dead dragons' lineages show or not--so dragons who died in the name of zombie fodder get their tiny memorial for services rendered in the name of Halloween, while deadline lovers still have their fun giving mutts and strays a new lease on pixelated life.

[Fuzzbucket]

I have my version pretty well thought out.

 

The owner of the dragon chooses how they want it to be shown. So if they have a deadline and leave it set to tombstones nobody can peek behind the stones to see what lays there lineage wise. Eggs and hatchlings with dead ancestor(s) have a "toggle" button so people can see what they're getting with a trade before they accept it.

 

Dragons with no offspring, frozen hatchlings, and eggs and hatchlings would all still get recycled. As to ones with offspring, I doubt it would hog THAT many codes out of the ridiculous number of possible 5 digit codes [916,132,832 if I did my math right, although since it's 1:30 AM I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong] or cause TJ to have to go to 6 digit codes all THAT much quicker.

Works for me kinda - but what if I breed from my "deadline set to tombstones" ones. Does the recipient of my egg get to see that lineage for ever, or only before they get it ? (Just curious here.)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Works for me kinda - but what if I breed from my "deadline set to tombstones" ones. Does the recipient of my egg get to see that lineage for ever, or only before they get it ? (Just curious here.)

If I'm understanding PF's suggestion correctly, it would be up to the new owner as to whether or not they want to continue seeing your deadline or if they want to see the full lineage of their dragon. If they don't like the look of the full lineage, however, they can choose to return it to deadline view.

[Shamiir]

And therein lies the problem.

It's been fairly consistently stated that deadliners don't want their lines to carry their baggage into the future.

 

I do not want recipients of my eggs to know what I killed, nor their friends or potential customers. Simple as that.

Others may have their own reasons, many and varied.

 

If we go to a lot of effort to start off again with a clean slate, then we want a clean slate - not an illusion of one.

[Pokemonfan13]

Works for me kinda - but what if I breed from my "deadline set to tombstones" ones. Does the recipient of my egg get to see that lineage for ever, or only before they get it ? (Just curious here.)

The recipient gets to set the lineage however they want, it's their dragon after all. Theoretically they would want to see the deadline as a deadline since that's how it's *supposed* to be. And you could ask them how they would display it before giving them the egg.

 

 

 

Shamiir, the problem is you can't have it both ways. Either dead is dead and lineages are ruined by people killing their dragons or the records are kept and people can decide to either have the tombstones be a barrier like they are now or see the complete lineage. I would expect the vast majority would rather have a deadline than the messy lineaged dragons you killed to make it, so I doubt the problem of people setting deadlines to "full ancestry" would be that big of a problem. And anyways, it's not yours any more. If people aren't allowed to complain about people naming their offspring something they find "stupid" [or not naming the dragon] or about letting the egg die on their scroll or who they breed it to [or don't breed] then they shouldn't be allowed to complain about how they choose to view the lineage either. If you care that much don't abandon any offspring, teleport them and only to people who want them as deadlines.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I second PF13. If someone is eager to recieve one of your deadlines, chances are good that they desire it because it's, well, a deadline. I doubt someone would be looking for a deadline just so they could convert it into the other format. And if not, hey, it's their dragon. Just like you can't control what someone names or does with a dragon you give them, you can't control how they look at it. If you don't want people to go turning off the deadline look, then simply make sure whoever you're gifting or trading with will keep it in deadline look.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by PF's edit, derpderp. But yup, exactly what she said. If I have a dragon that's really special to me, I make sure to give it to someone who'll appreciate it and use it in a way I consider fitting. Conversely, I don't throw such eggs into the AP because I have no guarantee they'll be treated decently. You could do the same. However, you shouldn't be able to force people to only look at a lineage your way any more then I can force people to never kill ancestors of things they've traded to me.

Edited January 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Shamiir]

I'm a no.

There would be just no point to the kill action at all except for doing Zombies.

If i create a deadline, i want it to be a deadline.

Not a problem then.

I stand by my original opinion.

 

Shumpti said:

In any case, the suggested compromises seem to be lost in the shuffle.

Obviously they did get lost.

 

I think I shall go and kill all my Dorkfaces.

Cheeze has become my new hero!!

 

Edit for spellfail rofl

Edited January 25, 2013 by Shamiir

[Amur_Rama]

My issue is, if you can see the deadline's lineage, it isn't a deadline anymore. Because the line isn't dead/gone.

 

Edit: I suppose on the same ticket, I should demand everyone in a lineage to name their dragons evenly. So that the tiles are the same proportion in size when the lineage gets sizeable.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[Pokemonfan13]

My issue is, if you can see the deadline's lineage, it isn't a deadline anymore. Because the line isn't dead/gone.

 

Edit: I suppose on the same ticket, I should demand everyone in a lineage to name their dragons evenly. So that the tiles are the same proportion in size when the lineage gets sizeable.

It's up to the owner if it's seen or not, at least in my version. It's not like anyone will be able to peek behind your deadline's deads. And if you make sure to give the offspring to those who will appreciate them as deadlines you won't have to worry about them either.

[Stromboli]

Let me see if I'm understanding this...

When you say the owner decides if the deadlined lineage may be seen, you mean the owner of each of the offspring gets to decide if the lineage still shows? So, like, if I kept all the offspring of my pair, I could keep the dead lineage hidden to everyone else, regardless of if their scroll shows dead lineages?

 

That I might be okay with. Still gives me plenty control over how much of the lineage may be seen. It'd be really nice if you could toggle that on a dragon-by-dragon basis, but that'd probably get a bit difficult to set up.

[Trebol35]

So, in other words, as i read these posts, It doesn't matter how many of us are saying no to this, it's going to go through anyway. The compromises are being completely ignored and the OP here is stomping around, throwing a tantrum saying it's not fair.

 

For heavens sakes this method is making it so the owner of the deadlined dragon is the owner of their lineage, and anyone who pics them up must follow by the owners lineage. At first i thought, ok PF's idea sounds great.. good idea, but NOT if it stymies how people can play their game. Not if it changes how DC is played so completely. If i breed something and you get it then you take that risk that i will change the line at my whim. Buyers Beware! I will NOT demand others to play this game the way i do!

 

Hmmm GO Shamiir Go!!

Edited January 25, 2013 by Trebol35

[Renorei]

I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if anyone has proposed the idea I'm about to suggest, but what if instead of a tombstone where the dead dragon's image would be in the lineage, the dragon's image is instead replaced with a greyscale version of the same image, or perhaps a faded or semi-transparent version of the image? So that you can still clearly see that that dragon was a CB Holly or whatever it was, but it's also obvious that it's dead.

[Pokemonfan13]

So, in other words, as i read these posts, It doesn't matter how many of us are saying no to this, it's going to go through anyway. The compromises are being completely ignored and the OP here is stomping around, throwing a tantrum saying it's not fair.

 

For heavens sakes this method is making it so the owner of the deadlined dragon is the owner of their lineage, and anyone who pics them up must follow by the owners lineage. At first i thought, ok PF's idea sounds great.. good idea, but NOT if it stymies how people can play their game. Not if it changes how DC is played so completely. If i breed something and you get it then you take that risk that i will change the line at my whim. Buyers Beware! I will NOT demand others to play this game the way i do!

 

Hmmm GO Shamiir Go!!

HOW does it limit how people can play? Because they need to be careful who gets deadline eggs if they're fanatic about the true lineage not being seen? People are already limited by similar things if they "want to make sure it goes to a good home" and such. I've got a similar limit because I don't like it when I send a rare egg to the AP and it ends up on a scroll with 20 of that species, so I have to find a home for it on the forums so I can give it to someone who doesn't have any of it. I'd love it if I can direct it like that on the AP ["This magma can only be picked up by someone with 1 magma or less/No magmas"] but that's not an option. I'm not saying it should be [but it would be nice], I'm just saying that people are already limited to what they can do with their offspring if they feel strongly about something, so what's so horrible about adding fanatic deadline people to the list?

 

And someone that fanatic about how the lineage is seen probably is already giving the offspring to specific people because of similar feelings about naming or breeding or the egg staying alive or whatever.

 

 

Can you list things that are being ignored? I've read almost this entire thread and don't remember a single compromise proposed that wasn't looked at. Most of the things that were mostly ignored were ideas that wouldn't help anything, like showing if the dead was CB or lineaged. It doesn't matter, the lineage is still ruined. Or things that would definitely not be popular with deadliners, like showing the breed of the dead as the base state, but unless there's an option to set the default to show full lineage it also doesn't help because the lineage is still ruined if the killed is not CB.

 

 

And seriously, it isn't fair. I don't even do lineages apart from helping others with theirs when I get a chance, and I feel outrage at the idea of a lineage that someone paid for [or even worked hard to make] being ruined by someone else who decides to kill off some of their dragons. And no, we're not trying to limit what people can do with their dragons [other than the ability to permanently disable kill, but that's the choice of the owner], we're trying to make it so that the lineages damaged by the dead can be restored. The only thing that's being limited is the damage the dragon killer can do to others.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[TheGrox]

Okay, so I have a little suggestion as to a little way to modify PF's idea.

 

Why not create a BSA, called something like "Research" [Possibly for Nilia Pygmies, as their breed description names them as a "curious" species?]?

 

If you have a deadline, you can use the BSA to 'research' what the deadline should look like, and from then on it would work like PF's idea. You could see a preview of what the lineage looked like, and choose whether to have it like that or not.

 

I think a BSA would make it a bit more interesting than just a button on the dragon's actions page. =)

 

Just a little thought. *goes back to lurking*

Edited January 25, 2013 by TheGrox

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So, in other words, as i read these posts, It doesn't matter how many of us are saying no to this, it's going to go through anyway. The compromises are being completely ignored and the OP here is stomping around, throwing a tantrum saying it's not fair.

That's up to TJ, not you, me, or anyone else in this thread. I'm sticking to my idea because I like it, of course, but if TJ doesn't or considers the opposite side's reasoning valid then of course it won't happen. Also, thanks for calling me a tantrum-throwing child, I appreciate that.

 

I will NOT demand others to play this game the way i do!

 

But by demanding people look at your deadlines the way you want them seen, you're doing exactly that: demanding they play (or more precisely, see) as you do. Whereas with PF's suggestion, everyone can play as they wish, seeing their own dragons as either deadlines or full lineages as they please. If you have your deadlines set to display as deadlines, then no one can see the full lineage of your dragons. They can only see the full lineage of your deadlines IF you give them an offspring from them, which is why as PF said, you can simply choose to only give/trade them to people who you know will keep them displayed as deadlines.

Edited January 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

A better idea than most, a BSA.

 

But as to the stuff about it isn't fair - well, a death in a lineage is effectively no different from anything else in this world we "purchase" - that car could later turn out to be a lemon, and we have to spend heaps fixing it (find other dragons to substitute in the lineage) or dump it ("suck it up"). Maybe the seller knew, and cheated on purpose, maybe not. That's life. NOTHING in it is fair

 

We all have to get over life, IMHO. And make the best of what we can get form it.

[Pokemonfan13]

Okay, so I have a little suggestion as to a little way to modify PF's idea.

 

Why not create a BSA, called something like "Research" [Possibly for Nilia Pygmies, as their breed description names them as a "curious" species?]?

 

If you have a deadline, you can use the BSA to 'research' what the deadline should look like, and from then on it would work like PF's idea. You could see a preview of what the lineage looked like, and choose whether to have it like that or not.

 

I think a BSA would make it a bit more interesting than just a button on the dragon's actions page. =)

 

Just a little thought. *goes back to lurking*

That would be cute, and not a bad idea at all. Although it only makes sense for dragons that you get that have a dead ancestor already. Dragons that get a dead ancestor after they were obtained by you [the lineage was whole when the egg entered your scroll] there would be no need to research the ancestry, since you already had that information recorded.

[Xylene]

Dragons with no offspring, frozen hatchlings, and eggs and hatchlings would all still get recycled.  As to ones with offspring, I doubt it would hog THAT many codes out of the ridiculous number of possible 5 digit codes [916,132,832 if I did my math right, although since it's 1:30 AM I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong] or cause TJ to have to go to 6 digit codes all THAT much quicker.

True, I keep forgetting about dragons with no offspring. I'm wondering how many codes we've used, since our original 4-character codes allow for 14.7 million dragons, and we have increasing numbers of people on DC, as well as our extra scroll space.

 

What I find silly about this overall is that nobody would care if it were any other dragon. It's our annual Holly drama, except this time it's in January. People have fussed about them or threatened to quit because of them, and as soon as something happens they throw a fit. Someone even renamed dragons things like "Ruined Forever" or "Ruined because of Stupidity". Hollies aren't even the rarest dragons in the cave and the 'value' of them is overblown.

 

I'm also pretty sure people will release or kill these Hollies, or work around the dead Holly, and forget about how upset they were in two months. IF they haven't done so already. And if something is implemented, the people who've killed or released their Hollies will complain that they didn't know this would happen.

 

A better idea than most, a BSA.

The fun thing about a BSA is how tempting it is. :3

 

Can we put a poll on this thread? I mean, you'd want something coded if a reasonable number of people would use it, right? I'm curious to see the opinions of the lurkers who don't want to jump in and post. (You'd be surprised how many of them there are!)

 

Proposing "Want as BSA, will use", "Want as scroll option, will use", "Want, but won't use" and "Do not want" options.

[TheGrox]

Proposing "Want as BSA, will use", "Want as scroll option, will use", "Want, but won't use" and "Do not want" options.

Yes, I was about to say something like this. I do think we need a poll. It is sometimes surprising just how many people actually vote in a poll, even if they don't post their thoughts. It would give us a good idea of just how many people want/don't want this.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Can we put a poll on this thread? I mean, you'd want something coded if a reasonable number of people would use it, right? I'm curious to see the opinions of the lurkers who don't want to jump in and post. (You'd be surprised how many of them there are!)

 

Proposing "Want as BSA, will use", "Want as scroll option, will use", "Want, but won't use" and "Do not want" options.

I think I'd like to get the thread wiped first, seeing as the original idea (and related discussion) are no longer being considered. But even then I'm rather nervous about doing so, because a lot of the people here are saying "NO" based on things that have been explained as not being issues. A couple of the most vocal people went from really opposing to more neutral only after PF explained her idea more in-depth to them...

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of "No's" from things that won't change. But there are also a lot of no's from things that, again, aren't real issues with the new idea.

 

AKA I hate polls, people don't read, ngh nhgn ngng. ;___;

Edited January 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[TheGrox]

That would be cute, and not a bad idea at all.  Although it only makes sense for dragons that you get that have a dead ancestor already.  Dragons that get a dead ancestor after they were obtained by you [the lineage was whole when the egg entered your scroll] there would be no need to research the ancestry, since you already had that information recorded.

 

Ah, yes, I hadn't thought of that. So dragons which you already had which got deadlined would still have an option on their page, rather than a BSA. But the BSA would be used for new dragons you get which already have dead lineages. Actually, that means a BSA wouldn't be all that useful, seeing as the main problem here is lineages you already have being deadlined... Ah well, I still think it'd be a cute little BSA idea. x3

[Pokemonfan13]

What I find silly about this overall is that nobody would care if it were any other dragon.

It's more that it's the straw that broke the camel's back. People would care when it was something as common as a water walker if it messed up their prized lineage or, even worse, a big group collaborative. It's just that this was annoying enough for the OP that she decided to try to do something about it.

 

 

 

 

And I have to agree with Angelic about the poll. I am normally the strongest proponent of polls here, but this is definitely a case where people decide they hate the idea before they spend the time to understand the idea.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13