Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[Fuzzbucket]

Having said that, I'm 100% for the BSA. And for all those complaining that they want their dead dragon dead and gone, if I'm understanding all of the suggestions right, the only think kept are the pictures of the ancestors? In other words, there won't be any way, at all, for the owner of the restored lineage (or anyone looking at the restored lineage) to see your dead dragon's view page, or other progeny, or even name or code. So there's absolutely no way for someone to, as someone so colorfully put it, see that you licked a cake. They can see that the cake was licked by someone, but not who did the licking.

 

Since I do believe that's the case, it sounds to me like those who are objecting have malicious actions in mind. Ie, deliberately destroying other people's hard created lineages. It's possible you don't, but honestly? That's how you come across. And I'm sorry, but I just take exception to that sort of behavior. It's just wrong.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Scuse me but I have no malicious intentions even of any kind. The dragons I shall be killing have only offspring that I own. One of them has two children out there - both dumped to the wilderness - probably because their lineage is - pretty frightful.

 

That's not even why I plan to kill them; I plan to just to create something specific. For myself. But I don't want anyone to be able to see past it. Just because I don't. It's like not letting people see the first draft of my novel*, as it wasn't OK yet.

 

Please don't assume malice until it happens. I feel pretty sure that my posts in this thread have not for a moment suggested I have evil intent. IN fact I haven't seen ANYONE here suggesting that they want to destroy a linage.

 

 

 

 

*no there is no novel....

[schmupti]

Having said that, I'm 100% for the BSA. And for all those complaining that they want their dead dragon dead and gone, if I'm understanding all of the suggestions right, the only think kept are the pictures of the ancestors? In other words, there won't be any way, at all, for the owner of the restored lineage (or anyone looking at the restored lineage) to see your dead dragon's view page, or other progeny, or even name or code. So there's absolutely no way for someone to, as someone so colorfully put it, see that you licked a cake. They can see that the cake was licked by someone, but not who did the licking.

Depends on which BSA suggestion you're referring to, I think.

 

As I understand it, it's not an issue of naming lickers, but of how funky the lickage was. Innocent young child lick, or "Welcome to flu season!" lick? Who's to say?

 

The most recent variation of the BSA, if I understand right, depended on timing:

 

Dragon A has lots of babies, and grandbabies, all over DC. They carry lineage info with them to their new scrolls. If Dragon A is killed, BSA would allow those scroll owners to recover that info for viewing, based on the logic that the egglets already had that info when they left the nest.

 

Dragon B is a man lizard without a past. He knows he's not caveborn, but when he tries to bring it up, the scroll owner chokes back a sob and says she doesn't want to reopen old wounds. When they head out into the AP/trading post, Dragon B's offspring can't recover lineage info, because Dragon B doesn't have it to share.

 

Deadline creators have the option to pop out an egg then cut that lineage off and hide it forever, while lineage lovers have the option to retain their records even if someone goes and gets themselves chucked out of DC.

Edited January 30, 2013 by schmupti

[arlymaye]

Since I do believe that's the case, it sounds to me like those who are objecting have malicious actions in mind. Ie, deliberately destroying other people's hard created lineages. It's possible you don't, but honestly? That's how you come across. And I'm sorry, but I just take exception to that sort of behavior. It's just wrong.

 

Cheers!

C4.

As Fuzz said, Scuse me ....

 

I am one of those who opposed to this BSA. So if your reasoning is correct, anyone who opposes have malicious intent. Now, do tell me what kind of malicious intent do I carry should I decide to kill my messy beyond recognition ten times inbred on father's and mother's side dragon? One should point out that one shouldn't lump everyone into the same group. Some people may have that intent, I can't be sure but it doesn't sit right with me that countless others and myself who voiced our objection be viewed in such an evil and despicable way.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Deadline creators have the option to pop out an egg then cut that lineage off and hide it forever, while lineage lovers have the option to retain their records even if someone goes and gets themselves chucked out of DC.

You're right on every point but this; if they cut the lineage off AFTER breeding the egg, then the egg can still recover its lineage, because it was still a change after the egg was produced (which could, in theory, be a change after the egg has been traded/thus be deceitful). However, if they make a deadline and THEN breed eggs, then yes, no one'd ever be able to see the past lineages.

 

That's not even why I plan to kill them; I plan to just to create something specific. For myself. But I don't want anyone to be able to see past it. Just because I don't. It's like not letting people see the first draft of my novel*, as it wasn't OK yet.

 

With the new suggestion, Fuzz, this would be very easy to do. When you plan to make a deadline lineage, simply refrain from breeding the dragons until the deadline has been created. Then you're free to hand out the offspring as you wish and, because people would be getting them with only a limited amount of lineage info (in other words, they'd know they were accepting a deadline), they wouldn't be able to ever recover the lineage, because they'd have never had the info in the first.

 

To put it more simply, only dragons that lose ancestors AFTER they are bred would be able to recover lineages. Dragons that have dead ancestors WHEN they are bred (as in the case of planned deadlines) would never be able to recover lineages.

 

I am one of those who opposed to this BSA. So if your reasoning is correct, anyone who opposes have malicious intent. Now, do tell me what kind of malicious intent do I carry should I decide to kill my messy beyond recognition ten times inbred on father's and mother's side dragon?

 

You're certainly not intending to be malicious in that case, but you ARE forcing people to go with the change or hit the highway. While you might want a clean deadline (and a lot of the people with your dragon's offspring might want one, too!), there might be others who got your egg as a messy, liked it as a messy, and want it to stay a messy, just like they got it. They should thus have the right to return to viewing the lineage as it looked when they got it. Again, though, if you never want anyone to see the messy stuff, simply don't breed your messies until they ARE pretty deadlines, at which point no one can see all that messy ten times inbred on both sidesness AND no one can complain about it, because they chose to take that egg knowing that's what they were getting.

Edited January 30, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[XiziX]

@ Anyone claiming the members against this suggestion are 'malicious':

 

Seriously?

 

Dead Lines are never malicious, it offends me that someone would think that. Some people on the forum even have projects that create them. I have yet to see anyone sounding malicious in ANY intent in this thread. That is purely assumption, and nothing more. So don't go around saying people who create dead lineages are mean or evil. It's the people who do nothing but kill random dragons just for the sake of killing them. And, if you read the thread, there is NO ONE HERE that is doing that.

 

Dead Lines are just another way some people create lineages. NOTHING more. There is a difference between people who make Dead Lineages, and people who go around killing just to make people angry. And, if it isn't obvious, the people saying they don't want this suggestion to happen are people who work very hard on Dead Lineages, or wish to make some in the future.

 

So, please, don't go around calling people malicious if they don't agree with a suggestion. It makes you look rude and ignorant...

 

Also: You can SEE if the lineage is dead or not. If you are trading for it, then you obviously know what it is. There is no trickery or anything there.

 

[ Example Lineage ]

Edited January 30, 2013 by Lyxii

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@ Anyone claiming the members against this suggestion are 'malicious':

 

Seriously?

 

Dead Lines are never malicious, it offends me that someone would think that. Some people on the forum even have projects that create them. I have yet to see anyone sounding malicious in ANY intent in this thread. That is purely assumption, and nothing more. So don't go around saying people who create dead lineages or mean or evil. It's the people who do nothing but kill random dragons just for the sake of killing them. And, if you read the thread, there is NO ONE HERE that is doing that.

 

Dead Lines are just another way some people create lineages. NOTHING more. There is a difference between people who make Dead Lineages, and people who go around killing just to make people angry. And, if it isn't obvious, the people saying they don't want this suggestion to happen are people who work very hard on Dead Lineages, or wish to make some in the future.

 

Also: You can SEE if the lineage is dead or not. If you are trading for it, then you obviously know what it is. There is no trickery or anything there.

With this new suggestion, deadlines would be 100% protected, though. You make a deadline, every single egg it produces is a deadline, no recovery possible.

 

Considering that, it does indeed seem like the only reason people would be opposed to the suggestion is if they want to make deadlines after they've already passed out offspring from the dragons they plan to use (in which case, they would have given people something that's different from what it'll become, which is indeed rather deceptive, regardless of whether or not its intentional), or if they want to be able to completely destroy every trace of their dragon from every lineage ever, no matter how much the people they've distributed offspring to want it to stay as-is--which, again, would be changing the lineage from how it was originally and, as such, COULD be used for malicious reasons.

 

The only change this suggestion would bring about is that people would have to make deadlines BEFORE they start breeding the relevant dragons, at least if they want to make sure no one can ever be able to see past the tombstones. Considering most deadlines are made from messies anyway, is asking that you hold off from breeding them until they've been deadline-ified if you want them to be deadlines for everyone really so much to ask? It would be very little extra work, if any, for deadline-makers, and in return would make a lot of people feel safer about trading, collaborating, and just enjoying lineages in general.

Edited January 30, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[arlymaye]

You're certainly not intending to be malicious in that case, but you ARE forcing people to go with the change or hit the highway. While you might want a clean deadline (and a lot of the people with your dragon's offspring might want one, too!), there might be others who got your egg as a messy, liked it as a messy, and want it to stay a messy, just like they got it. They should thus have the right to return to viewing the lineage as it looked when they got it. Again, though, if you never want anyone to see the messy stuff, simply don't breed your messies until they ARE pretty deadlines, at which point no one can see all that messy ten times inbred on both sidesness AND no one can complain about it, because they chose to take that egg knowing that's what they were getting.

Yes, ADP - the point of that post was just to show no malicious intent whatsoever. I clearly know and understand from top to bottom how the BSA will work.

 

I have already mentioned why I opposed to it and I don't want to go around explaining again in the fear of derailing this thread into a *my playstyle vs everyone's else* debate.

[XiziX]

@ADP

 

Oh, I know! I was just a bit rattled because some people were being called malicious for being opposed to changing and want to keep making these kinds of lineages.

 

I am down for a suggestion that, like you said, protects everyone. Both the DL creators and those that are victim to the crazies that go on dragon murder sprees.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Lyxii

[Fuzzbucket]

You're right on every point but this; if they cut the lineage off AFTER breeding the egg, then the egg can still recover its lineage, because it was still a change after the egg was produced (which could, in theory, be a change after the egg has been traded/thus be deceitful). However, if they make a deadline and THEN breed eggs, then yes, no one'd ever be able to see the past lineages.

 

No I know.

 

But even so - I resent being told I have malicious intent. I happen not to want the change. I see it all as like those records that were destroyed in Ireland - these things happen.

 

I am resigned to maybe getting it, and I am glad that deadlines can stay deadlined. But the idea that ANYONE against the change is by definition malicious is - plain rude. I may very well kill a few CBs while I'm working, too. How could that possibly be malicious ?

[shikaru]

Just because one person made a comment about malicious intent doesn't mean the whole thread needs to derail into annoyed responses to it. The idea of deadlines being malicious intent was never brought up in the original suggestion, deadlines are even specifically protected here so I doubt most people think there's any malicious intent involved there. I understand being annoyed by a claim like that, but we should keep the conversation constructive.

 

I personally don't care too much about lineages, but I agree with this idea. If a dead dragon exists in the lineage prior to you obtaining it, then you already know what you're in for and shouldn't be able to recover the line, but if you had an egg beforehand and suddenly a dragon in its lineage turns up dead, you should be able to recover at least the image if you want to.

 

To go with the breeding records analogy: If the records were burned/lost before you got the animal, then you have no way to recover it. However, if you got the records with the animal, then the breeder shouldn't be able to come and forcibly take the records away from you.

Edited January 31, 2013 by shikaru

[Pokemonfan13]

I personally think very few people who ruin lineages are malicious. They just want the dragon dead for whatever reason and don't think about the consequences for other people who think the tombstone ruins the lineage that it is a member of.

 

Sure, there are going to be some trolls who know their dragon is a member of some huge special lineage or a bunch of personal lineages and kill it for lulz, but there's no way that's most of them.

[siliconrose]

Heck, I went through my dragons very carefully in the lead-up to Halloween to figure out which ones I could afford to kill without affecting anyone else.

 

Very few people request breedings from me for common dragons, so the list of dragons I couldn't kill was pretty small... but I wouldn't be surprised if someone made a mistake or just didn't even think about it.

[Pixxelation]

Well, I found a con: 2nd gen deadlines wouldn't be possible. For a 2nd gen one, you have to breed the egg first, before the kill.

[Pokemonfan13]

Well, I found a con: 2nd gen deadlines wouldn't be possible. For a 2nd gen one, you have to breed the egg first, before the kill.

But the dragons involved are on your scroll. You can just not research it. That's also why I strongly suggest having a way to disable research on a dragon, so deadline makers can't accidentally research their deadline.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, I found a con: 2nd gen deadlines wouldn't be possible. For a 2nd gen one, you have to breed the egg first, before the kill.

They would be possible, actually. Either you keep the egg for yourself and never restore the lineage (thus ensuring no one can restore the 2nd gen's offspring's lineages), or you simply make 2nd gen deadlines for people who you know, well, want 2nd gen deadlines, haha. I imagine the first example is more of what'd be happening, though.

[siliconrose]

Hmm, did we cover what would happen if

 

Person X gives person Y an egg.

Person X kills the parent of Y's egg.

Person Y researches the lineage of his/her egg.

Person Y gives person Z an egg.

 

or

 

Person X gives person Y an egg.

Person X kills the parent of Y's egg.

Person Y gives person Z an egg.

Person Y researches the lineage of his/her egg.

 

?

[Pokemonfan13]

Hmm, did we cover what would happen if

 

Person X gives person Y an egg.

Person X kills the parent of Y's egg.

Person Y researches the lineage of his/her egg.

Person Y gives person Z an egg.

 

or

 

Person X gives person Y an egg.

Person X kills the parent of Y's egg.

Person Y gives person Z an egg.

Person Y researches the lineage of his/her egg.

 

?

Situation 1, z's egg has the restored lineage.

 

Situation 2 is the first of my questions, they're in the first post. [i'm the one who did the writeup for Angelic]

Edited January 31, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Person X gives person Y an egg.

Person X kills the parent of Y's egg.

Person Y gives person Z an egg.

Person Y researches the lineage of his/her egg.

PF covered situation one, so let me take a stab at situation two!

 

I think the fairest solution would be that the lineage of Z's egg wouldn't be updated. Again, the main thing desired here is to be able to restore lineages that change on you AFTER you get them. Having part of the feature potentially force Z to suffer a post-obtaining lineage change as well seems rather counter-productive. Z accepted Y's egg knowing how it looked, and was happy with it, so it doesn't make much sense to go and change it on them.

 

However, another option would be to give Z an option to REMOVE research. When you had your pygmy go check out the dragon's lineage, a new bit of text would pop up, something like "[Dragon] notices that there are some papers here that aren't in your handwriting. Would you like to remove them?"

 

I guess it depends on whether there's a counter-BSA for if you accidentally research something. If there is, and person Y removes the research they did, would it mess with person Z's lineage yet again? That seems excessively annoying and confusing, so I think the first option is still the best.

Edited January 31, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[HeatherMarie]

I'm not really understanding why we'd need a whole counter-BSA because someone might "accidentally" research something. Just make the research BSA a password-protected one, so you have to actually look at what you are doing and type in the password/action-name. People who do that and *then* claim they did the BSA on accident obviously need to pay better attention. But that would counter any need for a whole other BSA.

[Pokemonfan13]

What about not automatically updating the lineage, but giving Z the ability to research the lineage?

 

 

And there's no need to have a counter-BSA, just have the ability to disable research for a dragon so there's no chance of accidentally researching anything. =3

Edited January 31, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Vhale]

I'm not really understanding why we'd need a whole counter-BSA because someone might "accidentally" research something. Just make the research BSA a password-protected one, so you have to actually look at what you are doing and type in the password/action-name. People who do that and *then* claim they did the BSA on accident obviously need to pay better attention. But that would counter any need for a whole other BSA.

I've influenced something the wrong way once. I was able to fix it by trading it around. And this was despite having a password on the ability. There's no reason not to have a counter unless people want to punish other people for making a mistake. Something I would find ironic as this whole thread is a due to someone feeling punished by another's actions.

[Pokemonfan13]

Vhale, why does having a way to disable research for a reasearchable dragon not prevent accidental researching?

 

All you have to do is, if you have a dragon that you want the tombstones, disable research for the dragon right after you kill the ancestors and then you can't accidentally research it.

[Vhale]

Why is there a problem with being able to undo an accidental research? Accidents, being accidents, happen. Whether due to stupidty, carelessness, being tired or whatever. If it makes people feel better to assign ulterior motives to why an accident happened, go for it. Doesn't make me feel any differently about an undo button. Technically, even deaths have an undo button. Revive. It may not work 100% of the time, but it's there.

[Amur_Rama]

Okay, I've thought about this, and this line of "research" still sounds like it'll fiddle with how I play.

 

I don't deadline every dragon I get. If it's a trade or a gift, I always keep it, regardless of lineage (appropriately labelled, of course).

 

I get my first dragon, either as a trade or gift or AP catch. I raise, slot and name it.

 

I breed that dragon, the offspring is tagged as Deadline Fodder (or named similarly).

 

I breed Deadline Fodder until I have enough "seed" offspring for individual lines.

 

I breed the new Seed Dragons to see if they aren't going to reject particular mates. (Don't laugh, I'm probably just superstitious but it's happened.) If they fail, they die.

 

When I have enough offspring from that particular ancestor (tops about 4 per starter tinsel when I was working with them), I kill Deadline Fodder and it's mate. This breaking the lineage right at the line I want.

 

 

I take 3 generations to make my deadlines. Research isn't very compatible with how I work my lines. If they're tied into breeding, then I'm screwed all the way through.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Okay, I've thought about this, and this line of "research" still sounds like it'll fiddle with how I play.

 

I don't deadline every dragon I get. If it's a trade or a gift, I always keep it, regardless of lineage (appropriately labelled, of course).

 

I get my first dragon, either as a trade or gift or AP catch. I raise, slot and name it.

 

I breed that dragon, the offspring is tagged as Deadline Fodder (or named similarly).

 

I breed Deadline Fodder until I have enough "seed" offspring for individual lines.

 

I breed the new Seed Dragons to see if they aren't going to reject particular mates. (Don't laugh, I'm probably just superstitious but it's happened.) If they fail, they die.

 

When I have enough offspring from that particular ancestor (tops about 4 per starter tinsel when I was working with them), I kill Deadline Fodder and it's mate. This breaking the lineage right at the line I want.

 

 

I take 3 generations to make my deadlines. Research isn't very compatible with how I work my lines. If they're tied into breeding, then I'm screwed all the way through.

Only if your definition of being screwed is knowing that some people could still see the messy routes of your lineage... IF they choose to... and IF offspring ever left your scroll before you deadlined. That's a lot of "ifs" for something that's not really all that horrible anyway.