Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[Pokemonfan13]

Please, no more discussion on the recent developments related to dead dragons in this thread. It may be a related topic, but it is not related in any way to this suggestion, which has the goal of preserving the ability to make deadlines while allowing people to restore lineages.

[WraithZephyr]

I feel like deadlines are a bit like AP trading - a glitch we discovered that wasn't meant to be part of the game.

how exactly are deadlines a glitch?

 

A dead dragon is a dead dragon.. the lineage of its ancestors are always wiped with its death. If TJ didn't want dead dragons there would be no KILL function and as a result no zombies either.

 

It actually used to be dead dragons NEVER showed up in the lineages pages.. so people were able to create illusion deadlines. You didn't know they were deadlines unless you specifically went to the dragon's page to see that what you thought was a CB wasn't a CB, but in fact had deceased parents listed.

 

Eventually tombstones were added. Which caused a bunch of complaining between those who wanted "faked CBs" to be more easily identified and those who were creating deadlines to make fake CBs for their breeding projects.

 

 

the entire reason behind killing dragons, save for zombifcation is to "Clean" lineages!

clean lineages maybe YOUR reason, but it is not necessarily everyone else's reason.

 

I have a really nice even-gen that someone created where they sacrificed not only CB Blacks, but also a CB Gold in the process of making it so that its gold offspring would appear to be mated to a CB Black alt. That lineage was flat out ruined when tombstones were added to the lineage pages. I also have twin 2nd gen golds where the owner killed both the CB Gold and CB Green parents. None of these were messy lineages that needed cleaning up.

[Obscure_Trash]

how exactly are deadlines a glitch?

 

A dead dragon is a dead dragon.. the lineage of its ancestors are always wiped with its death. If TJ didn't want dead dragons there would be no KILL function and as a result no zombies either.

 

It actually used to be dead dragons NEVER showed up in the lineages pages.. so people were able to create illusion deadlines. You didn't know they were deadlines unless you specifically went to the dragon's page to see that what you thought was a CB wasn't a CB, but in fact had deceased parents listed.

 

Eventually tombstones were added. Which caused a bunch of complaining between those who wanted "faked CBs" to be more easily identified and those who were creating deadlines to make fake CBs for their breeding projects.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=5661001

 

Conversely, what do people think about me making the site store the lost linage information so that the lineage can continue past the tombstones, preventing people from "doctoring" lineages. To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so...

 

I know that was a long time ago, but it was his stance at one point. Perhaps glitch was the wrong word. I think unintended behavior is more representative.

[Fuzzbucket]

But fuzzbucket.... wait until TJ does whatever it is that TJ does best.

Maybe it will turn out OK.

 

I'm partway thru my deadline project.

Maybe I've lost a years planning/work...maybe I haven't.

'Tis just a pain at the moment, wondering whether to continue or quit now lol

 

PS - as they stand at the moment, I'm pretty well...well....

I am waiting (I said that in another thread..!)

 

Only one dragon has so far been bred for this project. It anxiously awaits its fate.

 

Socky - SOME people may used tombstones to deceive, but MOST people a} know what it might mean and b} and would not trade for it unless they were OK.

 

More to the point, it would be nice to KNOW what is happening here....

[WraithZephyr]

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=5661001

 

Conversely, what do people think about me making the site store the lost linage information so that the lineage can continue past the tombstones, preventing people from "doctoring" lineages. To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so...

 

I know that was a long time ago, but it was his stance at one point. Perhaps glitch was the wrong word. I think unintended behavior is more representative.

But unless someone is outright trying to claim a dragon is a CB when it is not, I am not sure how a deadline could ever be construed as misrepresenting anything. Just looking at the dragon's lineage or page clearly disproves any such claim of it being a CB is a lie since it will list that it has dead parents and everyone knows that CBs do not have parents.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

But unless someone is outright trying to claim a dragon is a CB when it is not, I am not sure how a deadline could ever be construed as misrepresenting anything. Just looking at the dragon's lineage or page clearly disproves any such claim of it being a CB is a lie since it will list that it has dead parents and everyone knows that CBs do not have parents.

^this^

 

(keeps posting in hope of being able to get back to her planned INSANE deadline lineage)

Edited February 21, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[kerrikins]

The issue that I was seeing last night with deadlines seems to be fixed, now... Seems to be, anyway.

 

That said, I like this idea. I do appreciate that for some people it's very frustrating to have their lineages altered, in spite of the usual comments that if you want to control a lineage you should own all the dragons.

 

If people had the ability to restore the lineage for their dragon and not negatively impact the person who owns the dragon that was killed... I'd be in favour of that idea. At this point I think that it's the only thing that's fair, because both sides need to be considered. As much as it's 'not fair' for people to have their lineages destroyed, it's 'not fair' for people to have their game style stripped away, either.

 

There's also one other thing to consider, which is the economy of DC itself and the AP... I know a lot of people who use undesireable lineages to create deadlines. If that option is stripped away, what will that mean for the eggs sitting on the AP, and from there, the cave?

 

I think it's the best compromise and would hopefully put an end to the whole debate once and for all because I think people on both sides are probably tired of it!

[Obscure_Trash]

I know that was a long time ago, but it was his stance at one point. Perhaps glitch was the wrong word. I think unintended behavior is more representative.

But unless someone is outright trying to claim a dragon is a CB when it is not, I am not sure how a deadline could ever be construed as misrepresenting anything. Just looking at the dragon's lineage or page clearly disproves any such claim of it being a CB is a lie since it will list that it has dead parents and everyone knows that CBs do not have parents.

Because it may look shorter gen than it is. There's no way of knowing what it was before.

[Fuzzbucket]

But whatever - everyone knows it isn't what it appears - that's enough, surely ?

[Cinnamin Draconna]

When your 7th gen even gen purebred stripe that was bred as part of a 10 gen even gen purebred project suddenly becomes a 3rd gen deadline it kinda makes one ANGRY. I've had to start my project over twice because of tombstones showing up in the middle of my chart with no way to see or prove that the dragon used to be a purebred stripe. I didn't mind the zombies, they were cool, because you could see the lineage before the undead one.

 

But DEAD dragons destroy lineages.. and whats the use of being gifted 3rd gen or higher dragons.. or trading for them.. or catching them on the AP.. if they all of a sudden their parents or grandparents suddenly become tombstones. If you can't see past the tombstone, you can't prove it's purebred... or the proper gen... or even gen.. and who wants to trade bloodlines for something that may or may not be something of equal value?

 

After starting my project over the 2nd time, I've limited myself to only accepting 2nd gens that I didn't breed myself.. because most folk don't kill caveborns. So guess what? MY game is being affected too.

 

Edit to add: In the real world dead things don't affect a lineage. If I bought a purebred dog for example, even if 90% of the dog's ancestors were dead, I could still prove it was a purebred because it's lineage would still show on it's papers.. and the lineage page is the equivalent of papers.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Cinnamin Draconna

[Tawanda001]

But whatever - everyone knows it isn't what it appears - that's enough, surely ?

I dunno, I've seen quite a few new players asking why someone would kill CB tinsels or asking the worth of deadlined tinsels because they think all those tombstones used to be CB tinsels....

[grammydragon]

So if a newbie who doesn't want to read the rules or ask the help question or

their mentor or the person they are getting the dragon from, then all my efforts

for my dragons should go to hades in a handbasket?

Already I have been told if I want cave born dragons I should accept only

being a player for the first 5 minutes of each hour while the rest of you

play for 24 hours a day.

I remember when the rich kid owned the ball and we all had to play what

he wanted or go home. What's the difference now?

How many deceptive/dishonest trades have there been to cause such

disruption and ruination as this?

[Obscure_Trash]

I think the point isn't "oh, some newb didn't bother to read info on the forum that isn't on the cave" but is that even if you know what that tombstone means, not everyone does and the stones make the lineage look a certain way when that's not what it is.

[Pokemonfan13]

To me it doesn't matter if the actual lineage isn't what it appears, since the way it appears is the only thing you can know.

[Obscure_Trash]

To me it doesn't matter if the actual lineage isn't what it appears, since the way it appears is the only thing you can know.

Hence the feeling of "disingenuous".

[Shamiir]

.... even if you know what that tombstone means, not everyone does and the stones make the lineage look a certain way when that's not what it is.

 

Hence the feeling of "disingenuous".

 

I guess it's in the eye of the perceiver. But nobody is forcing anyone to look at them.

 

I have come to love looking thru the tombstone projects. Especially when there are zombies hidden in them lol.

Many are much more interesting than the 'straight' lineages.

 

There is little enough fun and/or inventiveness left in Dragcave.

 

It's interesting looking at how the tombstones are displayed at the moment. To me, it looks ridiculous and unaesthetic for both the damaged pure lineage and the tombstones.

 

All in the eye of the perceiver.

[XiziX]

You affect WAY too many people and ruin hard work if you straight up get rid of dead lines. The suggestion that protects both sides is the only way to go. ( Edit: I am also NOT saying those who have dead dragons ruin their lineage didn't work hard either. But hear me out on this.)

 

Deadlines have been out way too long. Going in and taking them out cause some people don't like them is wrong and selfish. If you are sad cause YOUR hard work was ruined by a dead dragon, then what about the people whos hard work went into DEAD lineages and you want to "take it away" because apparently deadlines can be seen as "disingenuous". (Edit: Or however else one views them. Which, I remind everyone again, is a personal opinion/view. One person can see a deadline as being a "disingenuous" while I myself can see it as really neat! I sometimes love to trade for them. The stones have different meanings to different people. You can see it as hiding something in either a good or bad way. I like the fact they hide the ugly, while some people don't. Opinionnssssss )

 

This issue goes BOTH ways. And if we can all just understand that, I think a good conclusion can be met.

 

That is why we should allow these things to coexist. The people who want their lineages back need to have an option to gain their lineage back. While those who like their dead lineages can keep theirs. That would fix all of these problems. Until that is figured out, I don't think we are going to see any change. We can sit here and argue about this for months and months and get no where if everyone is unwilling to budge from their views...Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There is no "But what if a noob thinks its a lower gen than it really was!" (That is their fault, not ours. That's like saying we should switch the white and silver sprites on eggs cause some people can't tell the difference between them. If a player doesn't know what a tombstone is, they can simply ask.) or "Dead Lineages are bad and have no point!" (That is your OPINION and nothing more.) You can sit here for hours bringing up "what ifs" for the rest of your life, it wont get us anywhere.

 

And about the argument "in real life..." comments. This is a game, about dragons. You can't start bringing in this real world logic to try and eliminate a game mechanic people have used/created with for a VERY long time. It's kinda....pointless....? and a little unfair to those who really enjoy that mechanic? I mean, just LOOK at the threads in help that popped up when the dead lineages were altered (and thankfully fixed). People don't like that. :< (Edit: Like Nia said below me. Some Dead Lines take years - years! - to make. So how can anyone suggest we get rid of them completely? Where is the fairness in that? Think about it. Step back from any negative view you may have for two seconds on Dead Lines and think about the people who also work hard just like you do on your own lineages. There is no malicious intent, they are just using a different mechanic to create different lineages.)

 

Coexisting people. D: We gotta find out a good way to do so.

 

I do like some of the suggestions that help both sides. Let's focus on those? (IE: The BSA in the OP's post, which is the only fair option I have seen.) :<

Edited February 23, 2013 by Lyxii

[Little Nia]

You affect WAY too many people and ruin hard work if you straight up get rid of dead lines. The suggestion that protects both sides is the only way to go.

 

Deadlines have been out way too long. Going in and taking them out cause some people don't like them is wrong and selfish. If you are sad cause YOUR hard work was ruined by a dead dragon, then what about the people whos hard work went into DEAD lineages and you want to "take it away" because apparently deadlines can be seen as "disingenuous".

 

This issue goes BOTH ways. And if we can all just understand that, I think a good conclusion can be met.

 

That is why we should allow these things to coexist. The people who want their lineages back need to have an option to gain their lineage back. While those who like their dead lineages can keep theirs. That would fix all of these problems. Until that is figured out, I don't think we are going to see any change. We can sit here and argue about this for months and months and get no where if everyone is unwilling to budge from their views...Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There is no "But what if a noob thinks its a lower gen than it really was!" (That is their fault, not ours. That's like saying we should switch the white and silver sprites on eggs cause some people can't tell the difference between them. If a player doesn't know what a tombstone is, they can simply ask.) or "Dead Lineages are bad and have no point!" (That is your OPINION and nothing more.) You can sit here for hours bringing up "what ifs" for the rest of your life, it wont get us anywhere. And about the argument "in real life..." comments. This is a game, about dragons. You can't start bringing in this real world logic to try and eliminate a game mechanic people have used/created with for a VERY long time. It's kinda....pointless....? and a little unfair to those who really enjoy that mechanic? I mean, just LOOK at the threads in help that popped up when the dead lineages were altered (and thankfully fixed). People don't like that. :<

 

Coexisting people. D: We gotta find out a good way to do so.

 

I do like some of the suggestion that help both sides. Let's focus on those? (IE: the BSA in the OP's post, which is the only fair option I have seen.) :<

I strongly agree with Lyxii on this.

 

Though I do not like the BSA on some points. I think it should be a singular option. (Meaning it only works for the ONE person that used it) Someone wants to see that their beautiful 4th gen even lineage dragon from a Deadline is actually a 100+ gen, inbred and completely DISGUSTING lineage? Good on you! You turned your beautiful dragon into an ugly monstrosity that no-one would want except for freezing. Oh, but wait. Only YOU can see it is so nasty. Everyone else will still only see a 4th gen (or in the case that you breed it, it would then be a 5th gen) Deadline.

 

No mater what you do, you will have people that like it and people that hate it. Welcome to the world, everyone is an individual (or is supposed to be, anyway) and has their own ideas, opinions and points of views of things they like and or dislike.

 

I personally love Deadlines. I waited a whole 2 years working with a friend to make a deadline Holy, because the one I was able to get was large and very ugly lineage. Now I have a beautiful 3rd gen Deadline Holy and am working on making the (in my opinion) perfect mate for him. You don't want a beautiful 4th gen Arrow lineaged Holy? Then don't catch and keep my eggs! Give them to someone else that will appreciate it! YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO KEEP IT OR NOT.

 

As far as a dragon in the lineage suddenly becoming dead, that's too bad. If you are afraid this might happen, don't accept lineages from other people. Simple. Things die or get killed, it's a fact of life. I see no reason to mess with the way the game has been designed.

 

If TJ were to do ANYTHING, I'd suggest he just take away lineages, period. Then we wouldn't have anything to argue or debate over, eh? The fact that he even implemented lineages in the first place was nice. Though if they are going to create so much trouble, he could save himself a lot of time by just eliminating them.

 

I say everyone just sucks it up and lives with it.

You can't have everything.

You cannot pass go.

You may never collect a hundred dollars.

 

The End.

[Shala]

Has anybody else noticed that TJ has worked something out with deadlines? It should satisfy nearly everyone.

 

I would post a lineage link, but it's not my dragon, so I probably shouldn't.

 

It would seem that the dragon's lineage is cut off at the tombstone (in the lineage view), just as usual. But it keeps its code, and the tombstone is clickable. Clicking the tombstone takes you to the dead dragon's page, complete with parent links and progeny/children links. If you click the parents' links, you can see their lineages as usual.

So, there's a lineage break at the dead dragon, where you can't see the whole lineage at once, but if you dig, you can get an idea of what's hiding behind the tombstone now.

 

I'm curious to see reactions, as I haven't heard a peep on the forum about the change. Anybody care to discuss?

 

Shala

 

[Pokemonfan13]

What if someone kills a CB? Can you tell what breed it used to be?

 

 

I don't see how it really helps, the look of the lineage is still ruined.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

What if someone kills a CB? Can you tell what breed it used to be?

 

I don't see how it really helps, the look of the lineage is still ruined.

Agreed. Obviously being able to verify real lineage is important, but what's equally important to me is maintaining the look of a lineage. If I have a 8th gen PB Magma, and someone kills one of the 3rd gens in it, then even if I can verify what the lineage used to be it still looks really different.

 

If TJ considered his current change to be the final solution, then I imagine he'd have closed this thread. Since it's still open, however, I hope he might be willing to give our suggestion a try. <3

[Shamiir]

We've been watching the altered tombstones.

Nothing to do really until we see what TJ has in mind- or if *this is it*.

I'm presuming if this is it, he would say.

 

As it stands, both pure but damaged lineages and tombstones are blah.

 

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't think it's necessary to save the type of dragon types.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I don't think it's necessary to save the type of dragon types.

It's important if you're trying to prove it's a pureblood.

 

That tombstone without the rest of the lineage showing doesn't work for me. It would still ruin the look of my even gen lineages.

[DarkEternity]

The whole purpose of deadlines is so you can't see past the tombstones...

The whole purpose of keeping the lineages is to show the species of the dragons and what generation it is....