Albinism and other color variations

[Dolphinsong]

It is actually fairly difficult to shade white properly You either end up too cream in coloring or too gray without it actually looking like white.

[Firebirdwyvern]

Is that what pillow means? that's happened on my Wish Wyverns, the color is a white that isn't too white or too silver

[grimace]

Albinos being rare in the wild doesn't effect anything. You can't catch wild hatchlings/adults, and an egg with an albino in it isn't at a disadvantage compared to normal eggs.

 

 

[Firebirdwyvern]

There is the fact that a albino dragon could be released into the Wild, though those dragons aren't in the game, it still is a waste if one is easy thrown out like that.

 

I am still again it. The Albino dragon is the only one and it should stay the only Albino since it is more able to survive. A albino Vine, Skywing, or even a Albino pygmy couldn't handle it.

 

There is also the spriters to think of

[Dolphinsong]

Is that what pillow means? that's happened on my Wish Wyverns, the color is a white that isn't too white or too silver

Pillow means the light source is shining directly onto the dragon from the viewer's postion. No clear light source basically (the gold dragon incave is considered pillow shaded)

[Firebirdwyvern]

So the way to solve it is to consider which way the dragon is being viewed? so for the male Wyvern the view is more on his back while the female's underside is more showing (well in my Siggy shows their poses)

 

For the gold, is that why some people want the gold to have new sprites?

[Vhale]

There is the fact that a albino dragon could be released into the Wild, though those dragons aren't in the game, it still is a waste if one is easy thrown out like that.

 

I am still again it. The Albino dragon is the only one and it should stay the only Albino since it is more able to survive. A albino Vine, Skywing, or even a Albino pygmy couldn't handle it.

 

There is also the spriters to think of

Think of the spriters only works if we were chaining people down and forcing them to work on a project. It's been said so many times that no one is. Poor dead horse has been beaten badly. There are people who would volunteer to help recolor if that was an option. Much as happened with the Christmas sprites. It's also something that people enjoy.

 

But, at this point, I'd be concerned that even if an artist wanted to, they'd feel they couldn't without stepping on the toes of those who don't. So, it's not something I'm pursuing further myself. At least in this thread.

[Dolphinsong]

Do remember that it is impossible, physically impossible, to make everyone happy. Because of this, there are arguements and disputes and just down right drama. Albinoism I really do not want to see in the cave except the one albino breed we have already. There are several of us spriters, myself included, who do not like recolors becoming permement. Such as the case with the red and gold BBW I colored and the other christmas recolors.

 

Also, do remember, we do try to make these dragons as real as we can. Hence fixing anomaty flaws before it releases to the cave. Albinoism is extreamlly rare in most species, with birds being effected by it more often than others. The odds of finding an albino would be rarer than getting a GoN.

[Vicats]

There are many other fun pigment disorders which do not cause such a... striking colour difference, but would still allow for a different pigmentation for a species. I encourage you guys to look into: (You know I am quite sure I posted this on the Shinies board too?)

Dilution (Black becomes grey or "blue", green becomes yellow, etc.)

Abundisim (extra/anamolous markings),

Anerythristic albinism (lacks the red pigment - so oranges would be yellow, purples blue, reds would depend on what the other colours on the animal were)

Axanthic albinism (Lacks yellow, see above but with... yellow removed...)

Erythrism (Blacks turn red - can turn out like albinism, where the entire animal turns out red.)

Flavism (Entire animal yellowy/gold in hue.)

Melanistic (Extra dark, typically all black)

Hypomelanistic (Lacking - but not completely missing - black... black parts look faded.)

Piebald/Mosaic (See horses for examples)

Rufisim (Red pigment turns to a purer red)

Xanthic (Extra-yellow pigment)

 

In my opinion, different species could have different colour mutations (based on the "gene pool" of the population that "our" dragons come from, for those of you who are choking yourself with the whole believability issue. DC is based on an island, island populations often have unusual genetic throwbacks due to the reduced genepool size.) Depending on what the sprite mommas/poppas want to do. Obviously no one would be forced to provide a recolour of their sprites, but at least offer the option for people who are interested and breeds that could use the popularity.

 

As a note, partial albinism and leucism are NOT the same thing. An albino animal with a patch of normal skin transplanted onto them will continue to grow the pigmented fur/feathers/scales. Leucism actually KILLS pigment producing cells, so those animals will actually start to grow white (whatever they have) as soon as the skin is transplanted. Partial albinism is just that - it's an Albino with residual pigment.

 

As for recolouring, with photoshop (or any other program with contiguous fill), I could recolour every sprite in the cave in under 2 hours, so please for the love of all things scaley quit claiming it would be too much work. Besides, I imagine this would be voluntary and if one spriter doesn't have the time they can always have someone else do it for them, the final sprite pending their approval.

 

No one would force you to have an alternate colouration if you don't want one, Dolph, but let other spriters speak for themselves if they aren't interested. I find it very discomfiting that you talk about "several of us spriters" while no one else seems to be fighting tooth and claw like you are.

 

Also while surviving albinos are rare (parent animals often abandon albino young, predators, etc, which would not effect young taken from the wild and raised/fed/protected by humans like in our dear game.) at approximately 1/1800 individuals, other pigment mutations like Dilution, abundisim, melanism and Anerythristic and Axanthic Albinism are actually quite common. Approximately 70% of the grey squirrels in my area are either melanistic. Because the population is isolated it's actually become more common to see the mutation than the original colour.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Vicats

[olympe]

Albinoism I really do not want to see in the cave except the one albino breed we have already. There are several of us spriters, myself included, who do not like recolors becoming permement. Such as the case with the red and gold BBW I colored and the other christmas recolors.

Well, this is not solely about albinism, but about color mutations. (Consider the use of "albinism" as a pars pro toto for "all kinds of color mutations".)

 

If I may ask, though, why are you against recolors? I'm not trying to pick an argument here, but trying to understand your way of thinking.

[Dolphinsong]

Most recolors I am against simpley because it takes away from the breed. Take the christmas neos for example. Their coloring would make them stand out way too much, thus I am not for it. Now a blue with orange markings for a recolor I don't mind at all as it is more natural for a tropical creature.

[Keileon]

I haven't read the entire thread but I think I get the general idea.

 

I support this idea from a roleplaying angle- even if it's rare in the wild, humans making the dragons breed with certain partners COULD affect the gene pool and bring forward albinism and whatever else there is for color mutations. Vanity also makes me support this- who wouldn't want a rare recolor on their scroll?

 

Practicality is another story; since cave blockers ARE always changing as said before, how would you decide which commons to change? Changing them all is impossible because of simply how many there are and artists vanishing. Changing the cave blockers will just give rise to another type of cave blocker. But, all in all I like this idea.

 

My two cents. or maybe just a broken penny

[Ashywolf]

Also, do remember, we do try to make these dragons as real as we can. Hence fixing anomaty flaws before it releases to the cave. Albinoism is extreamlly rare in most species, with birds being effected by it more often than others. The odds of finding an albino would be rarer than getting a GoN.

To make it fully realistic, albinos would end up dieing as hatchlings quite often. Not only from predation (which is virtually non-present in the cave).

 

And clicks...would they require more clicks (more nutrition to survive) or less (if latter then they would become sick much more easily)?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Ashywolf

[Dolphinsong]

Rather just stick with slight color varitations instead of drastic color chases such as what albinoism itself does. A blue neo isn't that much different from a Green one, still able to survive quite nicely without effecting their ability of surviving.

[Fiona]

Axanthic albinism (Lacks yellow, see above but with... yellow removed...)

Actually, I think Neos with this coloring would look very interesting. The greens would become blue, the oranges red and the yellows would be hite(I think)

[skinst]

It's unlikely to be more resource-intensive than adding another breed and has happened in the past. (Nebula, anyone?)

I know that this is a somewhat old post, but this is something I feel I should address.

 

Nebula dragons come in an infinite array of colours and patterns due to how they get their markings. Since it is impossible to make infinite recolours for every single scroll in existance, my original intent was to make a series of 4 when the breed was near completion.

 

Due to time restraints on Sif's part however, only two colours were made, which I didn't mind in the slightest. I figured that, should the breed ever be released, I could easily make a second set when time permitted and if TJ was interested in the idea.

 

About 5 months or so after their release, I approached TJ with the idea and he didn't object, so Sif and I made a second series, as was the original intent. The set was ready months before TJ actually released them.

 

My point is, there was no problem with resources for the Nebula's because the original plan was to have more of them at some point if TJ was open to the idea. So making alts was a-okay because Sif and I were the ones who intended to create more.

 

This idea however is different. Some artists may not have pictured their dragons as having more than one colour set, and so naturally this project plus passed ones such as the Shiny project will have some objections from the dragon's creators.

 

It isn't a matter of resources the majority of the time, it's a matter of how the Artist(s) feel in regards to their breed. ^^

[olympe]

My point is, there was no problem with resources for the Nebula's because the original plan was to have more of them at some point if TJ was open to the idea. So making alts was a-okay because Sif and I were the ones who intended to create more.

The resources discussed back then were coding/sever related, not related to the strain on artists.

 

Still, I must admit I have to admit defeat. Most in-cave artists just don't want any recolors or at least none done by others (and not do any themselves), and as long as they hold the rights to their art, there is nothing we can do. It's a shame, really.

 

ETA: I just checked the art usage forms, and these are the common breeds where *we* might get permission for recolors for use on the forum, which - if we are optimists - might lead to the artists in question giving permission for the same sprite being used as an alt. All other artists either give no permission or state that they'd rather do them themselves. Considering artists are under quite some strain, it's rather unlikely for most of them to be willing to work on recolors - at least that's the feeling I got from this thread.

 

Breeds open for recolors (after asking for permission):

black

daydream

tangars

magi

moonstone

neotropical

red

ridgewings

spotted greenwing

(I don't guarantee that I got everything right, so please check back before doing anything.)

 

That's not much, and hardly the breeds that would need them the most. I rest my case.

Edited December 27, 2011 by olympe

[grimace]

Why not just have the species with permissions to do this have an albino chance, and have the others just not be able to be albino. It even reflects back on real life, as there are some animals that have never even been recorded as albino.

[Dolphinsong]

Not all recolors will be albino, some will just be a variation of the current coloring.

[olympe]

Yeah, I could imagine a few variations:

A thangar without yellow => would have a blue-ish base color with red wings

dark (melanistic?) daydream (dark blue with dark pink mane)

yellow magi (without red)

inversed neo (yellow with green markings)

green Christmas recolor for ridgewings

dilute greenwing

[Kanakha]

I like this idea. After all, how many species of animal...or anything living for that matter, have the /same exact/ markings and the /same exact/ colors throughout the entire species? Some form of variation for certain breeds is a fantastic idea.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kanakha

[Sorrowgrave]

even though there's the poor man's choice of just running the sprites threw photo shop to change the color instead of altering the sprite in any other way. You'd still need permission from the spriter.

 

 

I don't really like this; I can see entire lineages being made out of just albinos

[Firebirdwyvern]

I agree with Sorrowgrave, however there is one factor

 

Albinoes are very rare, they would be rarer then Golds and Silvers, maybe even Neglecteds, therefore pure albino lineages would be a rare and hard thing to do.

 

Look at rabbits. I have two rabbits and one of them has a strong albino gene, that means one out of a hundred might be albino but even that is uncertain.

 

As much as I hate to say it since I'm a huge albino fan, albinoes were never meant to exist, I mean look at the currents, a albino gazelle or deer is rare, and all albinoes are in greater risk, if it's a bird then it may not find a mate, if a mammel then it might become food.

 

And of course their skin is extra vulnerable and so the dragon would end up getting sickness, especially if it's not built like the official albino with a special oil to prevent the sun from hurting its skin

[Dolphinsong]

Full albinos also have a high risk of going blind when out in the sun. The lack of color pigments in the eyes makes it where bright lights effects them much more than non albinos.

 

Here's what I looked up on it.

Albinism is associated with a number of vision defects, such as photophobia, Nystagmus and astigmatism. Lack of skin pigmentation makes for more susceptibility to sunburn and skin cancers.

 

 

[Firebirdwyvern]

I don't get it, how can a animal go blind in the sun, I would understand if looks at the sun directly, but what if it isn't looking at the sun?

 

Exactly, I like albino animals a lot, I even have several albino characters, but I play them without those risks. But I don't think the dragons would be spared that.

 

Maybe we should just consider albinoes to be the Alt sprites that the Spriters recieved since many of them are both light colors and have unique eyes?