Albinism and other color variations

[skinst]

This isn't happening for the Nebula dragons for two reasons:

 

1) They already have alts

2) They are popular enough.

 

Enjoy your day.

[TheTwilightKnight]

This isn't happening for the Nebula dragons for two reasons:

 

1) They already have alts

2) They are popular enough.

 

Enjoy your day.

Well, that's just Nebula's. The rest could do fairly well, right? Well, maybe except Black Dragons.

[skinst]

That is something you will need to discuss with those who made the other dragons. I only have authority over the Nebula's, therefore they are the only dragons I will make desisions for.

[Chanilove]

I'm going to have to side with the other tens of members here and say that I have no idea how this will fix the cave-blocking problem. Cave-blockers are always going to exist, as they very well should for the sake of balance. I don't know why we're trying to push a solution that will require so much effort and end up not working. If one breed stops blocking the Cave, another will take its place. My main problem with this suggestion is that it is being suggested under the pretense of solving a problem that cannot be solved, at the very least not this way.

 

I'm probably going to be smacked for saying this, but it is my opinion that the only people who have a right to complain about cave ratios are those who actively participate in one or more of the many threads here dedicated to fixing them. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but if you have three Golds to every Stone dragon on your scroll then you're a part of the problem, to be completely honest, and aren't in a position to expect the spriters to come in an solve it. >.> I'm not hating on the way anyone plays or anything -- I'm a rare-hoarder myself -- but I think that anyone not participating in any of those threads probably finds it a lot easier to complain about it than fix it, thus unreasonably expecting the spriters to do it instead.

 

I'm all for seeing commons with more sprites, but not for this purpose. I'd only want them if an artist spontaneously decided to give a common an alt. I mean, if I was a spriter I'd probably be insulted if someone came to me and demanded an alt so that people would want it. >.> And even if I wasn't, I wouldn't feel like doing all that work to fix a problem that's simply part of the game.

 

I can haz Guardian Angel sprite from Halloween? /shot

Edited November 2, 2012 by Chanilove

[Firebirdwyvern]

People, honestly. Do you think Albinos are going to change cave-blocking? it's not doing to do that in the long run if you think about it. Being a albino is about your genes, it won't change how many eggs get there.

 

So why is there so much talk of cave-blocks? genes don't block or unblock the cave.

 

I don't think Albinos would work on that. I think it would just give the cave some more sparkle and to give a little more...mystery in the cave, even if only by 10% chance.

 

 

[Pixxelation]

No. Just no. You'd need to get the artists' permission, many of which aren't around DC anymore, and it would take a while to get done. Also, it would completely change the game and make i too complex. Please, no,

[Firebirdwyvern]

I don't care about the Cave blocking part, everyone knows that is a impossibility, but I would at least like to know that albinos can pop up in other breeds...even if it's just in a artist statement.

 

It makes things a whole lot easier and they are beautiful creatures...this would help me with any problems. Maybe our main question should be. "Can albinos happen in common breeds."

[Chanilove]

People, honestly. Do you think Albinos are going to change cave-blocking? it's not doing to do that in the long run if you think about it. Being a albino is about your genes, it won't change how many eggs get there.

 

So why is there so much talk of cave-blocks? genes don't block or unblock the cave.

 

I don't think Albinos would work on that. I think it would just give the cave some more sparkle and to give a little more...mystery in the cave, even if only by 10% chance.

There's so much talk about cave-blocking because that is what makes this suggestion even viable. If artists wanted alternative sprites for their dragons ("albinos") then they likely would have included them when the dragons had been made. The spriters aren't going to go out of their way and spit out a bunch of alternative sprites without a purpose. It's too much work to be done "just because."

Edited November 2, 2012 by Chanilove

[skinst]

There's so much talk about cave-blocking because that is what makes this suggestion even viable. If artists wanted alternative sprites for their dragons ("albinos") then they likely would have included them when the dragons had been made. The spriters aren't going to go out of their way and spit out a bunch of alternative sprites without a purpose. It's too much work to be done "just because."

You are partly right, but there are also other reasons why the artists don't add alts into the design upon innitial release. :3

 

It comes back to TJ expressing dislike for having too many dragons in a 'set'. From memory, it's normally been more than four or six, can't remember which.

 

So as a general rule, most artists who've been around for a while tend to keep their dragon sets between that number.

 

As you can imagine, in the case of, say, my own dragon? I already had plans for alts but was unable to get them done for reasons on their release date. But that was fine because eventually that was rectified. :3

 

Needless to say, ideas like this are good because it CAN give the in cave artists ideas. Read though - CAN, not ALWAYS.

 

Either way, with this idea, if it did go ahead I think it'd only be appropiate on some breeds, and not all of them, anyway, because not all animals have forms of albinoism, and neither would dragons. :3

[olympe]

I simply cannot foresee anyone taking that much time and effort just to make 'rare' dragons. Honestly, cave blocking is part of the game, and it should stay that way. Pick up commons if you so desire.

I simply cannot foresee anyone taking that much time and effort just to make 'rare' dragons. Honestly, cave blocking is part of the game, and it should stay that way. Pick up commons if you so desire.

It's not much effort to create a recolor of any one breed. 5 to 15 minutes tops. But thank you for your kind words on picking up commons, I hardly pick up anything but commons - and wouldn't mind some variety. (I have whole armies of neotropicals, canopies, daydreams, waters, skywings and whites on my scroll, and many other breeds are there in large numbers, too.)

 

This isn't happening for the Nebula dragons for two reasons:

 

1) They already have alts

2) They are popular enough.

 

Enjoy your day.

Let me answer with the OP:

There's always a lot of talk about getting eggs to move faster in the biomes. Especially commons. Dragons that have alt forms, always move pretty quick. While there's been discussion about shinies and ascension, what about albinism? Basically, a white version of the common. Say, maybe a 5-10% chance of hatching albino. Having a potentially new color to get via commons would get all of them snatched up more often. Probably, 2 or 3 commons from each biome would be enough to keep things moving as I know we can't recolor all of them.

This suggestion is about breeds that tend to block the cave, not about those that get snatched up in the blink of an eye like your nebulas.

 

I'm going to have to side with the other tens of members here and say that I have no idea how this will fix the cave-blocking problem. Cave-blockers are always going to exist, as they very well should for the sake of balance.

Well, cave-blocking won't be fixed once and for all, that's a given. But what do you think would happen if we got a beautiful new coloration for spitfires - which tend to clog the desert biome? For quite some time, people would snatch them up pretty quickly in order to get the new coloration. Of course, the eggs shouldn't show whether they're the "alt" coloration or not, or we'd only get AP-blocking instead of cave-blocking, but that's just one minor thing that's easily worked around.

 

And, since I'm feeling rather dumb now, please explain to me why cave blockers should exist and what balance you're talking about.

 

I don't know why we're trying to push a solution that will require so much effort and end up not working.

I can only repeat my earlier statement, creating a recolor takes 5, maybe 15 minutes. And coding for alts is already in place, so TJ would probably only have to copy and paste the appropriate lines into the code for another breed.

 

If one breed stops blocking the Cave, another will take its place.

Yes, but at least it won't be the same old whiptails, neotropicals, grays and whatnot - all three of which have been cave blockers for all the three years I'm playing now - that block the cave. Also, if you remember what happened after the blunas were introduced - it took several months for me to be able to catch skywings and waters again with some ease, whereas before the bluna release, they used to be blockers. (Skywings in part due to the shared description issue.)

 

My main problem with this suggestion is that it is being suggested under the pretense of solving a problem that cannot be solved, at the very least not this way.

Expressing the belief that the cave blocking situation might be "fixed" or at least relieved by creating new color variations is not a pretense. Besides, there has been a noticable effect with previous alt and/or hybrid releases. (Although I agree that the cave blocking problem won't be fixed permanently by this.)

 

I'm probably going to be smacked for saying this, but it is my opinion that the only people who have a right to complain about cave ratios are those who actively participate in one or more of the many threads here dedicated to fixing them. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but if you have three Golds to every Stone dragon on your scroll then you're a part of the problem, to be completely honest, and aren't in a position to expect the spriters to come in an solve it. >.> I'm not hating on the way anyone plays or anything -- I'm a rare-hoarder myself -- but I think that anyone not participating in any of those threads probably finds it a lot easier to complain about it than fix it, thus unreasonably expecting the spriters to do it instead.

Well, thanks for pointing fingers. I have 17 metallics for my lone stone dragon, am not involved in any "grab the commons" thread - and yet, my metallics : dragons overal ratio is just 1/4 of yours... (You have slightly more than 4% metallics, I have slightly more than 1%.) I dare say I'm much less "part of the problem" than you are, and I'm sick of being told to grab more commons so others get to grab more rares. Also, I'm not asking artists to make more rares, or to change the ratios to give us more rares or whatever, I'm asking artists to make the less desired breeds more desirable by adding a color variation (or two or three - over the course of several years). I know I'd love to grab 50 or so more neotropicals if there was a nice new color variation for them, and the same goes for pretty much every other common breed I hoard. And probably for some more that I don't.

 

People, honestly. Do you think Albinos are going to change cave-blocking? it's not doing to do that in the long run if you think about it. Being a albino is about your genes, it won't change how many eggs get there.

 

So why is there so much talk of cave-blocks? genes don't block or unblock the cave.

 

I don't think Albinos would work on that. I think it would just give the cave some more sparkle and to give a little more...mystery in the cave, even if only by 10% chance.

No, genes don't unblock the cave or the biomes or the AP. But players do - especially if they're given some kind of incentive.

 

Let me give you an example with daydreams. (Not because they're blockers, but because their creator, Lythiaren, is one of the few artists to allow for recolors. All original art is by her, not me.) Imagine there was a nice recolor available, like one of the following.

Wouldn't you be tempted to pick up more of them than you are now? Do you think other people would be? (Me, I have over 70 daydreams already, and I'd hoard about as many and then some if there was a recolor I liked, I'd probably start a new daydream-only lineage and whatnot.)

Edited November 2, 2012 by olympe

[Natayah]

I think there is a really good idea here, but I think its just too much. Recoloring an entire sprite to lack color, especially when we are already flooded with dragons who are white / pale in color to begin with doesn't seem to make them "special" to me. I know a lot of people complain about the overuse of "white" dragons in special lineages. So if you want something thats going to make people want a dragon MORE, I wouldn't think lacking color would be it.

 

How about a change in eye color? Or two different colored eyes if the dragons' faces are visible? This too is a genetic thing, and its rare, but it does happen. Its more likely that you are going to get a genetic mutation that impacts a small part of the body (different color eyes, tongue, fins, stripes, claws, whatever) over a complete albino. I actually don't mind the albino color idea myself and maybe this could be something that happens because of certain experimenting and treatment of eggs (like Neglecteds). The reason Albinos don't exist in Nature is because when they do, they end up dead pretty quickly. Its only human interference that causes us to purposely breed and create such creatures that fetch such high prices for their "rarity"

 

One of the side effects people don't often see is the discarded offspring who have mental and other health issues. Like the sanctuary that takes care of the white tigers that are born "defective" and cannot be sold. When you are playing with Nature and producing something that is (in the wild) inferior, you are going to get other pieces of inferior genetic makeup too. Which means that if you are going to be true to Nature, if its an anomaly, it may not even be able to sexually reproduce. Which makes it more like an ND rather than an alt.

 

I think if you are going to try and get permission from artists (who are still around and all can be reached) who do not specifically want an alt, I'd start by suggesting something small. And since eyes are pretty tiny, you would have a recolor of a couple of pixels. The problem with recoloring body parts is that has impacts on shading and other things. Eyes don't have nearly the complexity. And it wouldn't make a large impact on people who have bred out lineages. But its still something special, and may enhance the value of the lineage because one of its great grandmothers had ice blue or jungle green eyes instead of black or whatnot.

 

Added to say: And yes I would totally pick up eggs that had chances for recolors because sometimes I like the recolors more than the original version. Or I like the idea of new lineage / checker / contrast with other breeds combos. However, again, its adding or changing color, not taking it away. I don't want more pale white dragons as we already have so many that exist now, and that are on the to be considered list. Different color options would totally make me a happy AP hunter though. But again, only if it CB or a pretty lineage. Messy Lineages can sit in the AP until the end of time. I'm just not going to pick them up.

Edited November 2, 2012 by natayah

[olympe]

I don't know about different eye colors - the difference is so incredibly tiny, often not more than 2-4 pixels, that it's hard to spot. (And +1 support to the idea of not creating merely white versions of all kinds of dragons!)

[Firstborn Dragon]

What if the solution to cave blockers wasn't a BSA or alt, but another dragon?

 

It could be like a mimic dragon that ONLY affects overly common breeds, and CB eggs only. Invisible till the hatching stage. And in theory, though I'm not sure how hard to put into practice the breeds it mimics could be changed on the fly as the new blocker flavor of the month came in.

 

Add in the fact that those of us in the cave wouldn't know which given eggs the mimic could be, it would result in people grabbing commons and hatching them just to try and get the mimic, and if they didn't want the hatchies, as been seen, they get grabbed quickly.

 

I mean considering that even a gold can at MOST hatch 14 eggs/week (Including use of incubate) there would always be hatchling space on scrolls, even without the use of freezing.

 

Not sure if such a species would be breedable how to approch that, but it would deffintly lead to more blocker eggs being hatched. Even if there was only 1 sprite as opposed to gendered sprits, collecters would want 3.

[olympe]

I mean considering that even a gold can at MOST hatch 14 eggs/week (Including use of incubate) there would always be hatchling space on scrolls, even without the use of freezing.

 

Oops? I can easily hatch 49 eggs in two weeks, meaning 7 eggs every other day (thanks to incubate).

 

But I like the idea of a "cuckoo dragon" that has eggs that mimic the eggs of some other breed.

[Haloclimb]

I'd like this, simply to get a bit of variety in the cave. I could care less about whether something will stop blocking the cave.

 

Like has been said before, not every artists would instantly need to jump in or be forced at gunpoint to do it. It would be a 'oh well I have five minutes, why not' kind of thing.

Just like how not every artist gets involved in the Halloween and Christmas dress-ups (which I can imagine take up a heck of a lot more time than a simple recolour)

[Vicats]

I still support this... as for the "Not just white" complaints...

 

I'm to lazy to find my post on all the awesome mutations we could use. But Abundism, Piebald, Mosaicism, and others are on there.

 

And it's not every dragon that needs this. But some breeds could use a bit of a boost.

[Sadako]

Well I think this would be completely nifty, IF:

 

1. We divorce this from the idea of making blockers less blocky. There /will/ always be blockers, and recolors of a few species won't do much about it, but that doesn't mean we can't suggest some neat variations just for the sake of having neat variations. There is nothing wrong with making something a little cooler just so that it can be a little cooler. (We'd all still be wearing loincloths and togas if that was the case.)

 

2. We keep in mind that this is totally up to the artists and no one is saying or should be saying that all artists need to participate whether they like it or not; say a grand total of three artists think this is a good idea and so we end up with albino variations for five dragons in-cave. That would be super fun, right? On the other hand, we also need to remember that just because, for instance, Skinst says albinism isn't right for nebulas certainly doesn't mean that this is a terrible idea and we should all bite our tongues and be ashamed of ourselves for daring to make a suggestion.

 

3. We realize that limiting albinism to a few species rather than all commons or all blockers would make these new false rares even rarer, and therefore even cooler, so if this is considered, the fewer breeds that get albino forms the better.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Sadako

[olympe]

Just please don't make this all about off-white recolors (albinos) of our dragons...

[Sadako]

Just please don't make this all about off-white recolors (albinos) of our dragons...

...Me? I thought that was the topic. The objections are almost all 'artists won't do it' or 'it won't unblock the cave'; I was just trying to set aside those concerns and address the actual topic. My opinion of the actual topic is 'off-white recolors of a few dragons would be neat.'

[olympe]

You know, from post 2 on, other color variations than mere albinos have been discussed...

[Sadako]

...Yes, they have, and other color morphs are cool but I'm not really an expert on spelling schizochroism or knowing the difference between piebald and leucism so I'm leaving that alone.

 

I don't understand what I'm... I'm getting the impression that I'm irritating you and I don't understand why. I really do think a few off-white recolors (and sure, other more complicated recolors) would be neat and I'm just expressing that opinion.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Sadako

[olympe]

Sorry if I come across as if you were bothering me. You're not. It just is pretty depressing if something - like other recolors than merely white ones - has been discussed throughout the threat and a number of people who just came in don't even mention them. Also, I'd usually like to know if people are just for albinos or other variations as well.

 

(And, no, I'm not an expert on spelling or even naming all the possible color variations - but I can spell recolor for sure. )

[Sadako]

Ah, I see. I guess I was focusing on albino without really realizing it because if say five different recolors happen all at once and they're all paler or off-white versions of the originals it would be more... obviously thematically connected? Like the release or whatever would be more 'the albino release' than 'the shinies release' or 'the recolors release'. An albino release would feel more in keeping with the tone of DC to me than suddenly sticking in a bunch of color morphs that may not look as realistic (even if they are based on real color morphs). Everyone knows nature has albinos and people will think of several white versions of things as a group of albinos, but not everyone knows that some animals lack red pigment or have white patches, so those would be more likely to be mistaken for just plain shinies. But that's probably just me being obsessive about consistency and may not really be an issue.

[Obscure_Trash]

Perhaps it is time to PM the OP and see if they'll edit the title and first post or even if they'll add a poll.

[Vhale]

I've noticed it's been bumped lately though I haven't followed the thread. But if a change to the OP is good, feel free to write something up and poke. I will edit it in.