Albinism and other color variations

[Coronaviridae]

Hatchlings *never* act as blockers, though. There's always somebody with an extra hatchling spot open willing to snatch them up. :-)

This is the case at the moment. I'm extrapolating a scenario from Valenth, where there's a 1% (or lower) alt chance on all adoptables that's not visible from the initial adoption phase (the tube). Right now, we only have three dragons that function this way--the Nebulas, the Vines, and the Blacks. Blacks and Vines are breed-only alts with the CB ratio low enough that the eggs are snatched out of their biomes quickly enough not to become blockers, and any eggs appearing in the AP scooped up regardless of lineage. Nebulas are equally desirable, regardless of which form they come out as, and have been since their introduction.

 

If we give--to take the example of four species--Whiptails, Spitfires, Waterwalkers, and Greys a 5% chance of an "invisible" alt (one that doesn't show from the egg stage), it may give the desired effect of those eggs no longer blocking biomes. However, 95% of the hatchlings resulting from those eggs will not be alts. Assuming the worst-case scenario, all non-alt hatchlings are immediately dumped to the AP.

 

While I may almost always have extra hatchling space, if I don't like the look of non-alt Spitfires, what's my incentive to pick up the sudden flood of normal Spitfire hatchlings? Or Grey, Waterwalker, or Whiptail hatchlings? Sure, they're all CB and I could breed for second, even-gen alts if I wanted, but I could also pick up a CB egg from the biomes and try for a CB alt and dump the hatchling (like everyone else is) if it doesn't come out as an alt.

 

The reason Vine and Black alts work is because they're breed-only; the reason Nebula alts work is because people already really love Nebulas.

[Dolphinsong]

We are not competing with other pet sites so trying to get us to be more like them isn't a good idea really.

[Coronaviridae]

We are not competing with other pet sites so trying to get us to be more like them isn't a good idea really.

Totally understood; I'm just using Valenth as an example because they've played this scenario out. The introduction of "shiny" adoptables has resulted in market flooding of non-shiny "fails" that are effectively valueless.

 

The different way eggs and hatchlings are handled here will absolutely have an effect on how this scenario would play out on DC, but I don't see how suddenly adding a bunch of alts would be healthy simply because it results in shifting the blocker burden. As I already pointed out, the purple dorsals are an excellent example of this. Ridgewings aren't blockers because people already like their art.

 

(So I guess the trifecta for killing something's blocker status is "nice art, potential alt breed, BSA". Choose two and you win, but one has to be "nice art".)

[Ruins]

Slap me for being silly, but when I read this is comes across as one of those lovely times when a forum unites and says- in the voice of a thousand- "NO!"

[~!~]

Slap me for being silly, but when I read this is comes across as one of those lovely times when a forum unites and says- in the voice of a thousand- "NO!"

Well, for one thing, that's the opposite of lovely. (If you don't like people suggesting ways to change the site and not being shot down, why are you in S&R? o.0) For another thing, most people who are saying "no" are saying so because they think the idea has problems or won't work. I certainly don't think it would be bad to implement this, like, it wouldn't really cause any problems, just not fix any either.

 

Although, I must say, what's so bad about it being a band-aid solution? Take the worst blockers, give them alts. Then when new breeds become the worst blockers, make more alts. So long as there's enough time between the alt releases, the old blockers will have gained enough popularity that they'll be highly desirable for lineages and stuff, so they'll stay rare. (At least, that's what Blacks and Vines have done.)

[stogucheme]

This is the case at the moment. I'm extrapolating a scenario from Valenth, where there's a 1% (or lower) alt chance on all adoptables that's not visible from the initial adoption phase (the tube). Right now, we only have three dragons that function this way--the Nebulas, the Vines, and the Blacks. Blacks and Vines are breed-only alts with the CB ratio low enough that the eggs are snatched out of their biomes quickly enough not to become blockers, and any eggs appearing in the AP scooped up regardless of lineage. Nebulas are equally desirable, regardless of which form they come out as, and have been since their introduction.

 

If we give--to take the example of four species--Whiptails, Spitfires, Waterwalkers, and Greys a 5% chance of an "invisible" alt (one that doesn't show from the egg stage), it may give the desired effect of those eggs no longer blocking biomes. However, 95% of the hatchlings resulting from those eggs will not be alts. Assuming the worst-case scenario, all non-alt hatchlings are immediately dumped to the AP.

 

While I may almost always have extra hatchling space, if I don't like the look of non-alt Spitfires, what's my incentive to pick up the sudden flood of normal Spitfire hatchlings? Or Grey, Waterwalker, or Whiptail hatchlings? Sure, they're all CB and I could breed for second, even-gen alts if I wanted, but I could also pick up a CB egg from the biomes and try for a CB alt and dump the hatchling (like everyone else is) if it doesn't come out as an alt.

 

The reason Vine and Black alts work is because they're breed-only; the reason Nebula alts work is because people already really love Nebulas.

Well, you can go ahead and abandon all your hatchlings if you want- I'll be there to scoop 12 of them up. Seriously. You can freeze 'em, raise 'em, or whatever with 'em. I don't think there will be hatchlings in the AP, but if there are, I'll gladly take them. Besides, GREENS get scooped up in a flash if they're hatchies. How many of you have known the AP to keep hatchlings more than 10 seconds? Seriously?

[~!~]

Assuming the worst-case scenario, all non-alt hatchlings are immediately dumped to the AP.

I missed this before... I don't think this is the worse-case scenario. The worst case would be nobody giving a fig about albinos and them having no effect on cave blocking. Or perhaps even people picking up those breeds less because they want to avoid the albinos, but I doubt that would happen. DC is pretty big on rare = desirable.

[Coronaviridae]

This is extrapolating from current behavior, however, where people are not picking up eggs from the cave they don't intend to hatch (because ridgewings and dorsal alts are visible on the egg, nebulas are highly desirable regardless of color, and vines/blacks are breed-only alts) a majority of the time.

 

That may change dramatically with the introduction of "invisible" CB alts. Insisting that people will continue to pick up hatchlings at the same rates they do now just because they "always have" seems like deliberate ignorance of the factors involved.

[~!~]

This is extrapolating from current behavior, however, where people are not picking up eggs from the cave they don't intend to hatch (because ridgewings and dorsal alts are visible on the egg, nebulas are highly desirable regardless of color, and vines/blacks are breed-only alts) a majority of the time.

 

That may change dramatically with the introduction of "invisible" CB alts. Insisting that people will continue to pick up hatchlings at the same rates they do now just because they "always have" seems like deliberate ignorance of the factors involved.

But... the eggs aren't visible when you're picking up an egg from the cave. (If you're talking about the AP, that's another matter entirely.)

 

People will pick up hatchlings because they get off your scroll faster (instantly, if you freeze) and now because our scrolls have a larger capacity for them than for eggs. I seriously doubt that people will be so against collecting a dragon that they'll turn down a hatchling as often as they turn down eggs.

[kerrikins]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but I have to point out that Geodes are a result of breeding only certain types of dragons together - but those dragons are still blockers, as far as I can tell. Stones and pebbles still sit on the cave for ages, even though they can produce Geodes. I know they're not considered alts, but still.

 

I like alts as much as the next person, but I do agree that BSA's are a more likely way to make eggs get picked up faster.

[stogucheme]

But... the eggs aren't visible when you're picking up an egg from the cave. (If you're talking about the AP, that's another matter entirely.)

 

People will pick up hatchlings because they get off your scroll faster (instantly, if you freeze) and now because our scrolls have a larger capacity for them than for eggs. I seriously doubt that people will be so against collecting a dragon that they'll turn down a hatchling as often as they turn down eggs.

By invisible they mean, you can't tell a Black egg from an Alt Black egg.

 

But yeah, I totally agree with your point.

[Coronaviridae]

But... the eggs aren't visible when you're picking up an egg from the cave. (If you're talking about the AP, that's another matter entirely.)

 

People will pick up hatchlings because they get off your scroll faster (instantly, if you freeze) and now because our scrolls have a larger capacity for them than for eggs. I seriously doubt that people will be so against collecting a dragon that they'll turn down a hatchling as often as they turn down eggs.

As stogucheme said, "invisible" alts are those you can't tell from the egg (alt blacks are invisible; alt dorsals are visible).

 

And if people seriously do not want another Whiptail/Spitfire/Grey/whatever hatchling, they will not pick it up. Hatchling freeze limits might even come into play, and if the alt percentage is low enough, people may decide it's not worth their time to continue raising eggs only to continually get failed hatchlings.

 

Again, there's no actual equivalent situation to what's being proposed here already in place in DC (barring red versus purple dorsals, and we know how that situation's worked out--purple dorsals are a periodic AP clog). Adding variants is only going to shift where and when blockers occur, and continually adding variants does not seem like a fair thing to ask of the artists, especially when every actual in-cave artist who's commented on the thread has said "no, this is a bad idea".

[~!~]

As stogucheme said, "invisible" alts are those you can't tell from the egg (alt blacks are invisible; alt dorsals are visible).]

All I'm saying is, whether it's invisible or visible doesn't matter with the main cave, because you can't tell anyway.

[stogucheme]

As stogucheme said, "invisible" alts are those you can't tell from the egg (alt blacks are invisible; alt dorsals are visible).

 

And if people seriously do not want another Whiptail/Spitfire/Grey/whatever hatchling, they will not pick it up. Hatchling freeze limits might even come into play, and if the alt percentage is low enough, people may decide it's not worth their time to continue raising eggs only to continually get failed hatchlings.

 

Again, there's no actual equivalent situation to what's being proposed here already in place in DC (barring red versus purple dorsals, and we know how that situation's worked out--purple dorsals are a periodic AP clog). Adding variants is only going to shift where and when blockers occur, and continually adding variants does not seem like a fair thing to ask of the artists, especially when every actual in-cave artist who's commented on the thread has said "no, this is a bad idea".

Can you count them for me? I only noticed/recall Dolphinsong's, and they're are at least...46? artists if you check at the bottom of your scroll.

 

@~!~: But then they'll abandon the 'visible' eggs to the AP in 5 hrs. We want them to stay on scrolls at least a few days...

Edited November 16, 2011 by stogucheme

[CYDA LUVA83]

How about instead of asking for alts/shinies/extra stuff for commons we just pick them up so that they aren't blockers?

[Coronaviridae]

Can you count them for me? I only noticed/recall Dolphinsong's, and they're are at least...46? artists if you check at the bottom of your scroll.

On the first page, you have ParticleSoup, JOTB, and Lytharien all voicing reasons why it probably is a bad idea.

 

Note I said "all the artists who commented in the thread" not "all the artists in the Cave".

[stogucheme]

On the first page, you have ParticleSoup, JOTB, and Lytharien all voicing reasons why it probably is a bad idea.

 

Note I said "all the artists who commented in the thread" not "all the artists in the Cave".

Yeah, but if you poll all the artists here vs. all the artists of the cave-blockers, I'm sure you'd get different results. You can't poll...one moment, please...8% of the population to find out what the majority thinks.

[~!~]

Yeah, but if you poll all the artists here vs. all the artists of the cave-blockers, I'm sure you'd get different results. You can't poll...one moment, please...8% of the population to find out what the majority thinks.

You've got to take into account how many sprites each artist has worked on. Like, there are ~80 dragons in the cave, and if one artist worked on, say, ten of them, they would hold more sway than someone who only worked on one.

[Coronaviridae]

Let's see, of the dragons listed as blockers:

 

Neotropical: Dolphinsong has specifically said no.

Gray, Green, Guardian, Spitfires, Ochredrakes: Dove--who is no longer spriting.

Whiptail, Stone, Guardian: PF13.

Dorsal: Shiro Shirotaro.

 

Note also Lytharien has already been through this issue with the Frills (and it played a role in their retirement), so dismissing her out of hand because she hasn't sprited half a dozen of the species currently acting as blockers is, uh.

 

I'm not even sure what to say. "Impolite" at the very least.

[Dolphinsong]

Shiro has recently left the site as well to my current knowledge. PF13 I think still posts here and there.

[stogucheme]

Let's see, of the dragons listed as blockers:

 

Neotropical: Dolphinsong has specifically said no.

Gray, Green, Guardian, Spitfires, Ochredrakes: Dove--who is no longer spriting.

Whiptail, Stone, Guardian: PF13.

Dorsal: Shiro Shirotaro.

 

Note also Lytharien has already been through this issue with the Frills (and it played a role in their retirement), so dismissing her out of hand because she hasn't sprited half a dozen of the species currently acting as blockers is, uh.

 

I'm not even sure what to say. "Impolite" at the very least.

I didn't mean to dismiss anyone, I was just stating that maybe you didn't have all the artists' opinions, maybe not even the majority.

 

It's a shame that most of the artists are either gone/have refused this. Maybe we could ask PF13? They do have 3 of the dragons, after all...

[Layn]

I didn't mean to dismiss anyone, I was just stating that maybe you didn't have all the artists' opinions, maybe not even the majority.

 

It's a shame that most of the artists are either gone/have refused this. Maybe we could ask PF13? They do have 3 of the dragons, after all...

PF13 didn't make the stones. CaityG made the stones. PF helped, but the stones are CaityG's babies, not PF's. The only dragon (that I remember anyway) that was mostly PF's is the Guardian.

[olympe]

Yes, Shiro has left the site and asked for all his sprites to be pulled. I noticed that all his sprites from the completed section vanished within a day or so, but his in-cave sprites are still there. What that means in legal terms is beyond me, though.

[stogucheme]

PF13 didn't make the stones. CaityG made the stones. PF helped, but the stones are CaityG's babies, not PF's. The only dragon (that I remember anyway) that was mostly PF's is the Guardian.

That's derailing the topic. Point is, who made the blockers, can we contact them, and would they give a yes/no answer on this please?

[~!~]

PF13 didn't make the stones. CaityG made the stones. PF helped, but the stones are CaityG's babies, not PF's. The only dragon (that I remember anyway) that was mostly PF's is the Guardian.

I'm pretty sure PF13 had a large role with the Whiptails, too. Not as large as with the Guardians, but still significant.