Albinism and other color variations

[Dolphinsong]

Again, what happens when something ELSE becomes the cave blocker? Then we're going to be right back at square one. Suggest BSAs for them instead, make them something to AQUIRE instead of changing the art

[~!~]

Suggest BSAs for them instead, make them something to AQUIRE instead of changing the art

I'm surprised to see you suggesting BSAs as an alternative, Dolph. I thought you were all about "don't suggest a BSA just because a breed is a blocker."

 

I might point out that BSAs don't always work, and rarely are they something that is both useful and realistic. I think that alts and color morphs are a much more direct and effective way of increasing the desirability of a breed, especially if the alt is prettier/cooler than the regular version.

[Dolphinsong]

The reason i bite at those that make some BSA's is because there is no thought behind them except that they are cave blockers. Such an example being the failed Party/Feast threat that both Lyth and myself were rampaging in over a week ago.

 

BSAs are tons easier to do than making art for cave blockers because art takes a lot longer and eventually ends up useless in the long run. There are those that only go for certain numbers of dragons and once that limit is reach, too bad they arn't going after more just because the art is pretty.

 

Give the dragons a purpose and they are more sought after. Remember, pinks used to be a major cave blocker, both before AND after the sprite change. Suddenly they have a BSA and now they hardly block the cave.

[~!~]

I don't know about BSAs being easier to implement than alts. Maybe if you're the actual spriter of the breed, sure, but if you're anybody else, you'll have a much harder time of things... assuming you get the blessings of the original artist, without which you can't really do either.

[DarkEternity]

We've had BSAs that make 'sense', like Heal, and the suggestion for Heal is older than I am. (DC wise)

 

Alts: spriter permission, TJ approval, user approval + spriter effort.

BSA: spriter permission, TJ approval, user approval + guessing.

 

And the descriptions aren't particularly detailed, either. The idea won't work, because there is always something that will be a cave blocker.

Edited November 14, 2011 by DarkEternity

[Dolphinsong]

Actually BSA's don't really need spriter permission. We do have a say in what fits the dragon or not but really its TJ's approval, user approval + actually making sense and can work.

[~!~]

As far as I can tell, spriter approval pretty much dictates user approval here. (I'm also going to guess that making sense and being useful would factor into "user approval.") Heck, mods close BSA threads when the artist says the BSA won't work. I think it's pretty fair to say that they require spriter approval.

[tjekan]

I also think you're seriously lowballing the amount of time and effort it takes to code and test something like a BSA, especially the actually useful and desirable ones like Teleport and Influence. *shrug*

[Renorei]

I can make a recolor of an existing, finished sprite in less than half an hour. And it's not shoddy work either. Coding a BSA takes a lot longer than that.

[Shinobimasterz]

I can make a recolor of an existing, finished sprite in less than half an hour. And it's not shoddy work either. Coding a BSA takes a lot longer than that.

it's the easiest part of the job at first glance

 

BUT

it isn't doable, you need to have approval of the sprite artists to mod their sprite

 

In general

 

i disapprove

reasons:

a lot of work - considering getting approvals from sprite artists that are incave where one disapproval ruins the whole idea

not necessary - is not necessary, albinism is rare, very very rare, how often do you see albinos?

It would be like 0.01% chance

 

and all this work for a realistic chance of 0.01% not entirely up for it

 

 

[olympe]

Well, we don't have to go that far with realism. A chance of 5% for an albino (or any other color variation we can come up with) would be fine with me. This way, you have a fair enough chance of getting an alt. I'd also like to suggest other ways of color variation - be it spotted or whatever. I think such a decision would have to be made for each and every dragon breed instead of just saying "let's make albinos for all of them (that artists give permission)".

 

For example, I'd rather have a dorsal with a blue ridge instead of a dorsal with albinism.

[stogucheme]

Well, we don't have to go that far with realism. A chance of 5% for an albino (or any other color variation we can come up with) would be fine with me. This way, you have a fair enough chance of getting an alt. I'd also like to suggest other ways of color variation - be it spotted or whatever. I think such a decision would have to be made for each and every dragon breed instead of just saying "let's make albinos for all of them (that artists give permission)".

 

For example, I'd rather have a dorsal with a blue ridge instead of a dorsal with albinism.

Same. My suggestions: Yellow-striped Whiptail, Blue Dorsal, Green-finned Deepsea, Blue Mint, Pink Mint, Pink Guardian, Blue-striped Neotropical...will edit when I think of more.

Edited November 15, 2011 by stogucheme

[Vhale]

I think it's common sense that there will always be those eggs that get left. And anyone that thinks they can stop human nature is fooling themselves. We're not trying to adjust human nature here.

 

The theory is that we can speed up the biomes by making a few dragons in each a little more tasty. The reason I think that's possible is I don't think spitfires and stones are highly valued, yet, they do get taken while people look for reds. It's also something that could be done to a single biome, to see what happens.

 

And I think the other suggestion involving that already got shot down. IE, make the valueable BSA dragons migrate from biome to biome each month.

 

The selfish glee is the idea we might get some lovely white models Would a pebble be white with green hints to it's shading or a stricter model? Could be fun :3

 

The only big con I can see for myself is for people involved in very big lineages like Majestic, would not want alterations in the sprites. The nebula alt release just about killed one of those stairsteps. Though, that's also why I suggested a low percentage, not high. I think the Tan ridgewings and red dorsals aren't bad. But I don't know their exact percentages.

[Coronaviridae]

So a quick, off the top of my head list of blockers in the current biomes:

 

Alpine: Stone, Nocturnes.

Coast: Lack of rare dragon drops here means everything's effectively a blocker. No one is ever searching Coast biome.

Desert: Reverse situation from Coast. Desert usually clears within ten minutes of the hour. Sometimes clogs with Grey or Spitfire eggs but that's rare.

Forest: Whiptails, Ochre/Horse.

Jungle: Canopy, Neotropical, Terrae.

Volcano: Mint, Green, Stone.

AP: Green, Stone, Spitfire, Gray, Purple Dorsal, Waterwalker, Nocturne.

 

:u

 

I may have missed one or two, but this is my general observation.

[Dolphinsong]

*eyes neotropicals in the list* Nope, defently won't stand for any alteration in colors with them.

[stogucheme]

*eyes neotropicals in the list* Nope, defently won't stand for any alteration in colors with them.

Okay! We'll strike that from the list.

But not even giving them blue stripes? *bigeyes* /shot

[Stealthypugs]

I don't think there needs to be anything special done to fix the caveblocker problem because, as has been mentioned, what's a blocker and what isn't changes from month to month.

 

So a quick, off the top of my head list of blockers in the current biomes:

 

Alpine: Stone, Nocturnes.

Coast: Lack of rare dragon drops here means everything's effectively a blocker. No one is ever searching Coast biome.

Desert: Reverse situation from Coast. Desert usually clears within ten minutes of the hour. Sometimes clogs with Grey or Spitfire eggs but that's rare.

Forest: Whiptails, Ochre/Horse.

Jungle: Canopy, Neotropical, Terrae.

Volcano: Mint, Green, Stone.

AP: Green, Stone, Spitfire, Gray, Purple Dorsal, Waterwalker, Nocturne.

 

:u

 

I may have missed one or two, but this is my general observation.

Also, I don't think there are quite as many as you've listed. Terraes, for example, don't generally sit around for all that long (unless I've only seen them 30 sec before they're taken).

 

In my opinion, projects like the Common Collectors Competition do more towards clearing blockers than color changes will.

[Dolphinsong]

As I stated before, MANY times, giving them a new look or alt won't prevent them from being cave blockers. Pinks used to look different than they are now. At the change, they stopped being cave blockers for a span of maybe two months and they returned to once again being a cave blockers. When TJ gave them a BSA I have not seen them block the cave sense.

 

The blockers ALWAYS change, one breed will become more popular and stop being blockers for a few weeks and then return to being blockers as a different one becomes popular once again.

[lightningsky]

i don't support this. blockers will always exist.

 

if all the dragons in the cave had alts, then everything would just be...chaotic. all the work to sprite for the existing dragons in the cave and all the dragons being suggested would have to have alts...

 

i think it's up to the creator of the breed if there should alts and it would be fleshed out during the process of creating them (in the DR section). not just randomly deciding it to help a cave problem that's been around for the longest time.

 

nebulas are the only exception i suppose, but they weren't even blockers and they have always been desirable.

[HeatherMarie]

I wouldn't *mind* alts for *some* breeds, but when every single common breed gets an alt, alts become meaningless. They cease being special if most breeds have them.

 

However, I definitely agree that this is *not* a solution to cave-blocking. I've said it many times, just like Dolphinsong said, cave-blocking is *not* consistant.

 

You want Breed X to have an alt because it's a cave-blocker right now? Wait 5-6 months and you'll be wishing you could see Breed X more often. Even if Breeds X, Y, and Z got alts to make them more "desirable", sooner or later a new batch of breeds will become cave-blockers, and then are you going to do this whole alt-thing all over again for the new cave-blockers?

 

[Coronaviridae]

Also, I don't think there are quite as many as you've listed. Terraes, for example, don't generally sit around for all that long (unless I've only seen them 30 sec before they're taken).

I've literally seen a line of Terraes sit there for a good five minutes with ten or twelve people looking at them, so they're borderline on the blocker list for me. They don't tend to appear in the AP much however, which means they don't rate up there with Greens, Whiptails, Spitfires, and Stones.

 

Those, Neotropical, and Canopies seem like a good candidate for BSAs. (Greens already have a BSA and a special dragon breed and they're still blockers; IMO the issue there is Earthquake is effectively useless with the change to EQ kills taking a kill slot and its fatality ratio going up. That and--please do not hit me for this--a number of people can take or leave the sprite art.)

 

The Coast biome just has issues with not having "enough" desirable dragons assigned there (silvers, golds, cheeses, and papers do appear there, but they're cross-biome, So Yeah). About the one perk I can think of for searching the Coast is you're guaranteed to get Skywings if you pick up Strange Markings eggs, so it makes it easier for those of us with Bluna-breeding projects to get our CB Skywings.

 

The thing about alternates is that you don't really get rid of the blocker issue, you just shift the burden. If they're alternates with alternate egg art (purple dorsals, tan ridgewings), they turn into AP blockers after the five hour wait is up. If you have to wait until they hatch to see if they're alts (Nebulas), then you stand a better chance of people holding on to them--but if their only interest is in the new sprite art, you're going to see a lot of freeze-and-dump to the Wilderness or walls of failed hatchlings in the AP.

 

Or just people not being motivated in picking up the new eggs if the chance of an alt is too low, because why bother? If the alts can come from breeding as well, may as well use what they've already got rather than look for CBs. (And then the ratios screw up further.) People who don't like a sprite's look already are not going to suddenly like it if it's color-inverse, so saying "oo there's a 5% chance of an orange and purple neotropical!" will not increase adoption of Neotropicals as much as you'd think.

 

tl;dr: I agree with the artists; alts don't help that much with getting rid of blockers. :x

[stogucheme]

[...]or walls of failed hatchlings in the AP.[...]

You're claiming this is a bad thing?

 

And Dolphinsong stated Neos were out for recolors.

[Coronaviridae]

You're claiming this is a bad thing?

 

And Dolphinsong stated Neos were out for recolors.

It is if they continue to act as blockers.

 

And I am aware she did; I was nevertheless using them as an example because they've been a blocker for as long as I've been on DC. If you want another example, people who already don't like the look of Spitfires aren't going to be induced to pick up a black-and-gold Spitfire alt.

[tjekan]

Hatchlings *never* act as blockers, though. There's always somebody with an extra hatchling spot open willing to snatch them up. :-)

 

I think that additional colorations ARE in fact interesting for many users... you could make more interesting-looking lineages by crossing tan-turquoise spitfires with black-gold ones, for example, and the black-gold might make a more handsome-looking mate for a black dragon than the turquoise ones do. Besides, in most cases people aren't ignoring certain dragons because they dislike the sprite, but just because they have enough of them for their purposes already. If there were albino phases of some common dragons, I know I would certainly be motivated to try to find some. I think it would be fun.

 

If none of the artists are interested in such an idea, then so be it... this isn't the kind of idea that could go anywhere without at least one or two artists taking an interest in it. But I don't think it's inherently bad or doomed just because some artists AREN'T interested. In fact, I think the idea would be a lot more fun if it was only like 4 dragons with albino morphs rather than every single one anyway.

[olympe]

I think that additional colorations ARE in fact interesting for many users... you could make more interesting-looking lineages by crossing tan-turquoise spitfires with black-gold ones, for example, and the black-gold might make a more handsome-looking mate for a black dragon than the turquoise ones do. Besides, in most cases people aren't ignoring certain dragons because they dislike the sprite, but just because they have enough of them for their purposes already. If there were albino phases of some common dragons, I know I would certainly be motivated to try to find some. I think it would be fun.

I think that the stripes prove that point 100%. Also, you don't see ridgewings blocking their biome, do you? (I'm not mentioning dorsals, though. They are a rather old breed with an old sprite.)

 

I also didn't collect frills (much) because I didn't like the color combination. (Sorry, Lyth.) But once I saw a red-and-orange frill as someone's avatar - or was it in their signature? - and went all "DO WANT NOW!" So, yes, I think that adding recolors would do a lot to make certain breeds more desirable. I sure would collect dozens of the suggested black-and-gold spitfires, or white (or dark pink) flamingos or purple or brown stripes (if I could get my hands on them, that is).