Religion

[Anna Selka]

I think you missing the point here,

This is reffering to those women who are ungrateful to their husband, and they do not practice Islam correctly on purpose.

 

For example ,

If the man was working all day long and makes little money the " rebellious" wife would be upset with the lack of Income and to get back at him she could wear scanty clothing outside on purpose to make him mad. He first has to advice her, if she refuses to listen then he must boycott her bed if she still persists then he is allowed to hit her but not in a way that would cause bodily injury or in the face, he is only allowed to this if that is the only option to save the family from her rebellious actions

 

 

 

THIS has nothing to do with a normal wife, even if she is clumsy or they get into an argument the man can't just"hit her" for no reason

Wow. That is incredibly misogynistic. I am glad that no one around me will ever treat me in this way.

 

Hitting a woman is never ok, and never justifiable. The way this text implies the man has a position of supreme authority over the woman is disturbing and depressing.

 

~ Ashes the Second : Just for background, I was raised a Christian (Anglican to be more precise) but became agnostic at age 15.

 

I have to say, how literally you take the Bible is extremely variable. It depends on which "Church" (I don't know how to call all the different sorts of Christians, you know, like Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc. ^^' ) you are from, and really on your personal belief. For example, you could believe in Genesis word for word, and think the earth is something like 3600 years old. Or you could believe that Creation is more like an allegory, a symbolic story that represents an image for us to understand more easily how the world was created. Or you could believe in evolution, guided by the hand of God. And this is only a tiny tiny fraction of how Christians can view things.

 

It depends either on how you were taught, or on how your faith comes to make sense for you.

 

I suppose people that believe in the Bible word for word, would explain it by saying "It is the word of God, that he gave us to guide us. I have faith in him and thus believe his Holy Word in the form of the Bible. If I didn't believe, it would show I don't trust God with everything."

 

Other people, like my parents do, believe that the Bible was written by humans with the Holy Spirit dictating his intentions to them, but that it was shaped and coloured by these humans' beliefs, and thus we must try to read between the lines and find the intent God had. (for example, not apply literally the passages about stoning adulterous women, or never eating seafood, or women being unclean when they are on their period, because these are more of a reflection of the time the Bible was written in). Also the Romans did a lot of "editing" of the Bible, which is historically proven, so it would be hard to disregard the influence humans have had on the Bible, at least in my parents' opinion.

 

I don't know if what I have just said is useful to you or if I missed the point entirely. Of course I am playing Devil's advocate here (ha, the irony of using this phrase), since I am not a Christian anymore and feel much truer to myself this way

[PointOfOrigin]

I'm offended that you find that to be disrespectful when its all in the book.

 

Where do you think I'm getting my information from? I happened to date a muslim guy. His whole family was muslim. It is in their quaran.

 

What I find offensive is you are obviously in favor of all these things, and that is terrible.

And the same thing could be sad for any Abrahamic religion. The only difference is that the west has abandoned those beliefs while the Islam still clings to it. But all of them had the same starting point.

 

Furthermore, Tikindi has never showed that he is in favor for any of this - if anything, he was always against any restrictions put on women.

 

*Sorry Tikindi,I've accidentally gender-bended you here*

Edited February 4, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[St. Jimmy]

Where do you think I'm getting my information from? I happened to date a muslim guy. His whole family was muslim. It is in their quaran. How could you possibly defend domestic abuse? You find it offensive that I put down domestic abuse? That must mean you're in favor of it.

I don't think it's necessarily whether the information you have is true or not, and what you're against, but the way you said it was horribly condescending.

Edited February 5, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[KageSora]

I'm offended that you find that to be disrespectful when its all in the book.

 

Where do you think I'm getting my information from? I happened to date a muslim guy. His whole family was muslim. It is in their quaran.

 

What I find offensive is you are obviously in favor of all these things, and that is terrible.

It's how you put it that's offensive. Your tone (and this may not be how you meant it, but tone in text caries poorly and word choice can REALLY change how people read it) came off as condescending and holier-than-thou and "I'm so much better because MY religion is better than yours, you poor, pathetic, misguided fool."

 

THAT is what's offensive.

 

Would you be offended if I said to you "Wow, I feel so bad for you that you have a religion that demonizes women for daring to assert that they are more than broodmares and that demonizes people for how they were born because it's different from you (that whole "gays are sinning by acting on the nature YOUR god made them with" thing). I'll hope that someday you'll get educated and see the world like a reasonable, rational, decent person."?

 

I imagine so, because that would be incredibly rude and mean of me to say something like that--even if some of the points made are absolutely valid when you look at the behaviors of various sects of Christianity.

 

Instead, it would be much better for me to say something like

 

"I find aspects of Christianity disagreeable as a result of the negative treatment of women and members of the LGBTQ community by some members of the religion due to their beliefs. I don't support the idea that women should never have an abortion, because I believe that their health is more important than the potential life inside them, and I believe that it is natural for some individuals to be members of the LGBTQ spectrum and thus acting on their innate nature shouldn't be considered immoral."

 

The first is just rude and a personal attack and really just doesn't help open the way for civil discussion of the matter--all it does is cause offense and hurt feelings.

 

The second addresses the same issues I have with the religion, but in a way that's not a personal attack and leaves room to generate (hopefully) civil discussion and/or debate of my views and the views of others--and hopefully debate that can help all sides gain a better understanding of the views of others and/or the religion.

 

 

It's not condoning abuse to find the way something is worded to be rude and/or offensive.

[luckynicole659]

Sorry. Didn't mean to cause an issue. My apologies.

[Anbu Bee]

Apology accepted.

when I did saw your post I was pretty offended, so I refrained from posting for a little while, but I think we are all caught up in the moment.

 

I will be back to post again in a little while though, its time for me to make my prayer now so I will log on a little later okay?

[luckynicole659]

Apology accepted.

when I did saw your post I was pretty offended, so I refrained from posting for a little while, but I think we are all caught up in the moment.

 

I will be back to post again in a little while though, its time for me to make my prayer now so I will log on a little later okay?

My apology was because I didnt try to be hurt you, personally.

 

However I still find it offensive that women are allowed to be beaten. Thats just wrong no matter who you are or what you believe.

[TikindiDragon]

Thanks guys for understanding what my (admittedly rather sarcastic) remark was getting at.

 

And Origin is completely right - I am in no way in favour of violence towards women (or anyone else for that matter). What I *am* very much in favour of is respect, and I do feel it's possible to disagree with people without being rude about it.

 

@ nicole - I will observe that the Muslim faith, like the Christian one, is interpreted differently by different branches, and different individuals. I get the impression from you that the doctrines you take issue with are the hard-line fundamentalist ones (The follower of which, in some cases, can be the Islamic version of the WBC). I can totally agree with that stance. What worries me slightly is that you seem to think that *all* Muslims are like that, which would be as wrong as assuming that all Christians are like the WBC.

[luckynicole659]

@ nicole - I will observe that the Muslim faith, like the Christian one, is interpreted differently by different branches, and different individuals. I get the impression from you that the doctrines you take issue with are the hard-line fundamentalist ones (The follower of which, in some cases, can be the Islamic version of the WBC). I can totally agree with that stance. What worries me slightly is that you seem to think that *all* Muslims are like that, which would be as wrong as assuming that all Christians are like the WBC.

No, what I find to be offensive is that it says to beat the women if they disobey their husbands.

Edited February 4, 2013 by luckynicole659

[kiffren]

Completely offtopic, just popping in to say something from my viewpoint as a mod. (Please globals/nix/murder don't warn me D8)

 

I really really appreciate when people calm down and work things out like y'all did. This sort of thing doesn't seem to happen very often, usually people just keep blowing up at each other until one of us mods has to step in. If there was a way to give everyone in the last half dozen posts good karma, I would.

 

(Here's my attempt at on topic, since I don't really know anything about the religion at hand.)

Abusing anyone is wrong, and using religion as an excuse is equally not wrong. That being said, different cultures do have different standards for what is wrong. As long as we believe in religious freedom, we must believe that other religions (cultures) can do as they want (internally) as long as they are not interfering or hurting us. Not sure if I'm phrasing this how I want to at all, I'll reread it after classes.

Edited February 4, 2013 by kiffren

[KageSora]

I think that makes sense. We can't truly judge those of other cultures by our own standards, because they don't attempt to live up to them.

 

You can't hold a person of one faith to the religious standards of a person of another faith and expect them to match up just the same in their personal morals.

 

We don't have to agree with the way another culture works, but we don't have the right to try to force that culture to conform to our standards. Same with religion. You don't have to agree with the other religion, but you can't force them to conform to your religion just because you don't agree with it.

[luckynicole659]

Completely offtopic, just popping in to say something from my viewpoint as a mod. (Please globals/nix/murder don't warn me D8)

 

I really really appreciate when people calm down and work things out like y'all did. This sort of thing doesn't seem to happen very often, usually people just keep blowing up at each other until one of us mods has to step in. If there was a way to give everyone in the last half dozen posts good karma, I would.

 

(Here's my attempt at on topic, since I don't really know anything about the religion at hand.)

Abusing anyone is wrong, and using religion as an excuse is equally not wrong. That being said, different cultures do have different standards for what is wrong. As long as we believe in religious freedom, we must believe that other religions (cultures) can do as they want (internally) as long as they are not interfering or hurting us. Not sure if I'm phrasing this how I want to at all, I'll reread it after classes.

Do you mean by internally doing what they want if it doesnt hurt us externally, are you saying its okay for some guy at home to beat his wife as long as he leaves the public out of it?

 

I just dont understand how anyone, unless they are an abuser, can think its okay to do this. How is it okay to ever intentionally hurt someone, except in self defense?

Parents are supposed to teach their children not to hit and instead to talk things out, but being part of a different religion exempts you from acting like a mature adult?

 

 

[PointOfOrigin]

Do you mean by internally doing what they want if it doesnt hurt us externally, are you saying its okay for some guy at home to beat his wife as long as he leaves the public out of it?

 

I just dont understand how anyone, unless they are an abuser, can think its okay to do this. How is it okay to ever intentionally hurt someone, except in self defense?

Parents are supposed to teach their children not to hit and instead to talk things out, but being part of a different religion exempts you from acting like a mature adult?

I think (sorry if I'm wrong) that kiffren is trying to get us to look at things from cultural relativism standpoint.

[luckynicole659]

I think (sorry if I'm wrong) that kiffren is trying to get us to look at things from cultural relativism standpoint.

But just because its part of their 'culture' doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye.

 

Those women need our help.

[kiffren]

Do you mean by internally doing what they want if it doesnt hurt us externally, are you saying its okay for some guy at home to beat his wife as long as he leaves the public out of it?

No, it's not ok. That is what we've been taught, that is what we as a western culture where women and men are equal have been taught. In the united states, that guy could (and should) get sent to prison. Of course, the 'should' part of that is entirely cultural based.

 

I think (sorry if I'm wrong) that kiffren is trying to get us to look at things from cultural relativism standpoint.

Eeyup.

 

We don't have to agree with the way another culture works, but we don't have the right to try to force that culture to conform to our standards. Same with religion. You don't have to agree with the other religion, but you can't force them to conform to your religion just because you don't agree with it.

 

This is exactly what I was saying.

 

But just because its part of their 'culture' doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye.

 

Those women need our help.

 

And I'm not saying your wrong, in fact I agree with you. However, think about it from a different perspective. In the united states we wear clothes, we cover our torsos in order to be 'decent' as we see it. Now suppose that there is another country, let's say the UK, where wearing clothes is considered abuse, a sin, and wrong. Suppose our british friends were very vocal about this, they believed firmly that wearing clothes was wrong and hurtful to those that wore them. If they were to come and tell us to stop wearing clothes, we would be very upset and hurt and refuse to cooperate. We don't see it from their perspective, and they don't see it from ours. (This is an example, nothing more. I am not saying that hitting someone is the equivalent of wearing/not wearing clothing.)

 

Again, I agree that abusing women (or anyone) is wrong. How we go about helping others to see that needs to be done carefully, if at all. We once had slaves (we being americans), and not too long ago women couldn't vote.

[NobleOwl]

Culture can make a huge difference in someone's outlook. Since meeting my wife I've lost count of how many girls I've heard complain about their inability to marry until they turn 18. From their perspective, it's forcing them into an extended childhood they loathe.

 

In my own culture, something as simple as taking a father's name can be seen as alien and unwanted.

 

How is it okay to ever intentionally hurt someone, except in self defense?

 

Assault someone? Never.

 

Hurt someone? Depending on the situation, we do it all time. We make excuses for it, like the twelve year old patient who doesn't want one more surgery, or the person who travels across the world to have a traditional tattoo done, or a consensual couple who hurt each other because they enjoy it, a Padaung woman elongating her neck because she thinks it's beautiful, or even things like wearing high heels or a corset. There are people against all of these things on a similar thought process.

 

My point is, just because you view something as abuse doesn't mean the person in question does. Should steps be taken to protect women fleeing abusive situations? Absolutely. Should more resources go for domestic violence awareness and shelters, worldwide? Absolutely. Should we make every effort to discover if a situation is abusive? Yes.

 

All of that raises the question, however, of how one can tell the difference between a black and blue wrist from an abusive husband and a black and blue wrist as a sign of love.

 

I am in no way condoning abuse, I'm simply saying it's complicated. Are there abusive Muslims who use religion to justify their actions? Yes. Are their abusive Christians who use religion to justify their actions? Yes. Heck, I've met atheists who use evolution to condone abuse. Does that mean that all people interpret those sources the same way? No. I know multiple Muslim men who work to raise awareness of their interpretation of the Qu'ran that abuse in any form is an abomination before Allah, just like I know Christians and Atheists that hold that abuse is horrible.

 

Am I making any sense? I haven't slept in 29 hours.

[KageSora]

But just because its part of their 'culture' doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye.

 

Those women need our help.

Unfortunately, we Americans have a lot of things that are terrible that are part of OUR culture that other countries look down on us for, but we excuse them. How is that any better?

 

Our culture where it's okay to treat others like dirt as long as they don't make a lot of money, where if they die because they can't afford insurance they're blamed for not working hard enough? Like it or not, that's a mindset that's ingrained in a lot of Americans, and is part of the culture here as a result.

 

Our culture, where a women shouldn't be raped rather than a man shouldn't rape. Where the victim must have done something wrong, must have tempted the man somehow and thus it couldn't have been the man's fault. Like it or not, that's an unfortunate part of the rape culture that's prevalent in America.

 

Our culture, where women are still expected to be sex objects for men--it's not outright stated a lot, no, but you see women draped barely clothed in suggestive positions over EVERYTHING, even our entertainment has to break their bodies to make them appealing--see the boobs'n'butt problems in comics (spines do NOT work that way).

 

There's a Bible verse about that.

 

Something about removing the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from your brother's.

 

So, before we can "fix" or "help" another culture change their views, we'd better take a long, hard look at the cultural problems in our OWN culture and work on those. After all--how can we help others when we ourselves are guilty of crimes just as cruel?

 

And, then, WHAT view is the right one? The Christian one? If so, then what denomination has the correct view? Which group's cultural views are "correct"? How do you determine the standard by which you try to change another culture?

 

And, then would you be willing to listen if another culture tried to change your own to match theirs? Because you'd be guilty of the same.

 

 

The best we can do is explain our views, and reason it out and hope they see it our way. If they refuse to, do we TRULY have a right to change that? In their culture, it is not wrong. Who are we to truly say what is or is not right or wrong as an absolute? In their eyes, we may be just as wrong and cruel in our own ways.

 

 

@Noble--You make sense to me!

[Anbu Bee]

I am in no way condoning abuse, I'm simply saying it's complicated. Are there abusive Muslims who use religion to justify their actions? Yes. Are their abusive Christians who use religion to justify their actions? Yes. Heck, I've met atheists who use evolution to condone abuse. Does that mean that all people interpret those sources the same way? No. I know multiple Muslim men who work to raise awareness of their interpretation of the Qu'ran that abuse in any form is an abomination before Allah, just like I know Christians and Atheists that hold that abuse is horrible.

 

this is exactly what I mean.

 

I understand that some muslims use religion to get away with abuse, but I am studying to become among the muslims who are trying to raise awareness to unnecessarily abuse. just stating "Islam is completely abusing religion" is wrong, not only because its untrue, but because your basis for it is based on you personal affairs.

 

the most knowledgeable, religious, men and women, who study quran, aren't even violent, because it stated over and over to take the prophet as an example. and he never beat his wives, he always tried to resolve things without violence and warned countless time to "be patient"

 

 

Narrated Abu Musa:

 

Some people asked Allah's Apostle, "Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?" He replied, "One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands."Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 10

 

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:

 

I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.

 

 

 

I am not saying the prophet never engaged in fighting, or warfare. because he did, but he never was the first attacker.

 

even if Muslims use Islam to "get away" with crimes, do you honestly think god is going to let them get away with it? its for this reason that I will not accept hatred towards god for a human actions. Allah(this means one true god in arabic) said in the Qur'an:

 

 

Does he think that no one has seen him? (7) Have We not made for him two eyes? (8) And a tongue and two lips? (9) And have shown him the two ways? (10)

[Holy Qur'an 90:7-11]

 

But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare? (77)[Holy Qur'an 2:77]

 

 

 

 

 

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally. [Holy Quran; 2:25]

 

 

 

How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned. (28) It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.(29)[Holy Quran; 2:29]

 

 

 

 

O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous - (21) [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].  [Holy Quran; 2:20-21]

 

(I was typing this pretty quickly so if there is any typos thats why)

 

[greatguy]

Unfortunately, we Americans have a lot of things that are terrible that are part of OUR culture that other countries look down on us for, but we excuse them.  How is that any better?

 

Our culture where it's okay to treat others like dirt as long as they don't make a lot of money, where if they die because they can't afford insurance they're blamed for not working hard enough?  Like it or not, that's a mindset that's ingrained in a lot of Americans, and is part of the culture here as a result.

 

Our culture, where a women shouldn't be raped rather than a man shouldn't rape.  Where the victim must have done something wrong, must have tempted the man somehow and thus it couldn't have been the man's fault.  Like it or not, that's an unfortunate part of the rape culture that's prevalent in America.

 

Can you give any examples of this?

 

Our culture, where women are still expected to be sex objects for men--it's not outright stated a lot, no, but you see women draped barely clothed in suggestive positions over EVERYTHING, even our entertainment has to break their bodies to make them appealing--see the boobs'n'butt problems in comics (spines do NOT work that way).

 

(A You're reading disturbing material. Seriously, your spine statement is putting me on edge.

 

(B This isn't just Western culture. Over 95% of human culture incorporates forms of arousal. In the first century, female hair was considered arousing, like breasts are today. It isn't just us. Heck, look up how sexually active Puritans were. (I won't in depth here)

 

Something about removing the plank from your own eye before taking out your brother's speck.

 

So, before we can "fix" or "help" another culture change their views, we'd better take a long, hard look at the cultural problems in our OWN culture and work on those.  After all--how can we help others when we ourselves are guilty of crimes just as cruel?

 

Crimes which don't hurt anyone and are completely consensual are oxymorons. Raping hurts. Murder hurts. Theft hurts. Arson hurts. Explain how every single individual can be prevented from doing them without transforming the government into a police state.

 

And, then, WHAT view is the right one?  The Christian one?  If so, then what denomination has the correct view?  Which group's cultural views are "correct"?  How do you determine the standard by which you try to change another culture?

 

I cast dibs on Judaism and Shinto

 

And, then would you be willing to listen if another culture tried to change your own to match theirs?  Because you'd be guilty of the same.

 

That's...sorta the point of this thread?

 

The best we can do is explain our views, and reason it out and hope they see it our way.  If they refuse to, do we TRULY have a right to change that?  In their culture, it is not wrong.  Who are we to truly say what is or is not right or wrong as an absolute?  In their eyes, we may be just as wrong and cruel in our own ways.

 

Any suggestions on how to do that? Society's only been working at it for a few thousand years. And I really hope you don't think pornography is a major part of culture here. Also, jsyk, prostitution is illegal in the U.S.

 

All I'm saying is to not be so quick to condemn your own culture. You're kinda assuming that it's evil.

Edited February 5, 2013 by greatguy

[hazeh]

 

(A You're reading disturbing material. Seriously, your spine statement is putting me on edge.

Just gonna pop in and say that the material that was referenced can pretty much be found in any female-protagonist comic, disturbing or not. The positions that the artists put the women in to portray their "sexy" bodies are unnatural and are simply not physically feasible.

[PointOfOrigin]

Greatguy: in addition to Haze, you really do not need to look far for rape culture. Just throw a stick at modern YA literature, and the chances are that you are going to hit a book full of stalkerish, abusive love interests that are hailed as an epitome of good.

Edited February 6, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[LascielsShadow]

Can you give any examples of this?

 

For the first bit, just look around in the US. It's not hard to find evidence. That video of a group of people laughing and cheering at the idea of letting an uninsured man die is a good example.

 

For the second, just look around you. There are all sorts of examples, like lists of "how to avoid being raped"being posted by actual law enforcement agencies, constant questioning of victims in ways that make them seem at fault ("Well, why were you in X place at that time?"; "What were you wearing?"; "did you fight?"; "you were flirting with him earlier, weren't you?"; "you let him into your apartment, didn't you?"), advice for women in an area where a rapist was active being "don't wear short skirts"; and putting conditions on what is and is not "really" rape.

 

(A You're reading disturbing material. Seriously, your spine statement is putting me on edge.

 

(B This isn't just Western culture. Over 95% of human culture incorporates forms of arousal. In the first century, female hair was considered arousing, like breasts are today. It isn't just us. Heck, look up how sexually active Puritans were. (I won't in depth here)

 

Yeah, disturbing material like To-Love-Ru (human bodies do not bend that way!), or this, this, or this; pretty much every single comic book ever (Rob Liefeld, I am looking at you); pretty much every anime and manga ever that caters to the teen-twentysomething male demographic, and plenty of ones that don't, not to mention video games and other things.

 

Also, things like Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray and countless other books that make it seem okay for someone's partner to be abusive and stalkerish, and that this is what a woman should aspire to have in a relationship.

 

 

And, funnily enough, that mostly equals MALE arousal/attraction. Wonder why that is? When's the last time, outside of a Calvin Klein ad or that one drain cleaner advert, that you saw women even being acknowledged as potential customers? (Actually, the CK ad doesn't even really count; that's more of a "you could be this guy if you buy our underwear" thing.)

 

 

Crimes which don't hurt anyone and are completely consensual are oxymorons. Raping hurts. Murder hurts. Theft hurts. Arson hurts. Explain how every single individual can be prevented from doing them without transforming the government into a police state.

I didn't see where KS suggested that we attempt to prevent every single individual from committing crimes, just that we might want to get a slightly better handle on our own problems before we go presenting ourselves as some moral arbiter to other countries. It's a little difficult to tell other people "Hey, guys, don't do that" when you're still doing it yourself.

Edited February 5, 2013 by LascielsShadow

[TikindiDragon]

No, what I find to be offensive is that it says to beat the women if they disobey their husbands.

So you take offense at a particular part of the translation of the Qu'ran? That's fair enough (although I will observe that, if taken out of the context of the entire passage in the same way, there are plenty of parts of the Bible that could likewise be considered offensive). Although you've been coming across as if you find the entire *religion* offensive because of a single sentance (taken out of context) in their Holy Book. That I do have issue with.

 

Edit to add:

 

Crimes which don't hurt anyone and are completely consensual are oxymorons. Raping hurts. Murder hurts. Theft hurts. Arson hurts.

 

This is not entirely true. For example the age of consent is lower that the age at which it is legal to record footage of sexual acts. Which means two consenting 17 year olds would be breaking the law if they filmed themselves. Technically it's a crime, it's also completely consensual and does not hurt anyone. I can pull up a load of further example of illegal but consensual and unharmful if you like.

 

I would say it's a pretty good example of illegal doesn't have to be immoral, and that immoral doesn't have to mean illegal.

 

When's the last time, outside of a Calvin Klein ad or that one drain cleaner advert, that you saw women even being acknowledged as potential customers?

 

Make-up and hair dye advertising. Trust me, that's not aimed at men being the customers in the slightest. Now you may not like the implication that looking nice is something women should aspire to, but the advertising *is* aimed at women.

 

I will also note that 'looking nice is something you should aspire to' is also aimed at men as well. Note all the adverts for 'Just For Men' hair and beard dye. And all the ads for shaving razors, or moisturising creams targeted at men..

 

Incidently this particular bit of discussion is waaaaay off topic. Perhaps we ought to move it to a more appropriate thread?

Edited February 5, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[NixAyum]

But just because its part of their 'culture' doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye.

 

Those women need our help.

I think you're generalizing here. Not every instance of hitting is abuse (whether we're talking about adults or children), and Anbu Bee did explain the constraints on the law and how abuse is handled differently.

 

Also can I just agree with kiff in that crisis averted thank you thread four for you thread <3

[NobleOwl]

Crimes which don't hurt anyone and are completely consensual are oxymorons. Raping hurts. Murder hurts. Theft hurts. Arson hurts.

 

That's just not true. Consensual polygamy is illegal in the US, and considered a crime -- not because it harms anyone but because the government doesn't know how to tax it, and doesn't want to try and untangle three or more sets of rights.

 

British law doesn't allow you to consent to bodily injury -- even if you did. (Which to me raises whole other questions, but whatever.)

 

I'm Navajo -- quite a few of my friends and family have used peyote for vision quests, but for anyone outside the tribes, that's a crime, even if they use it for the exact same religious purposes.

 

I was reading the other day about a teenager who took pictures of herself naked and sent them to herself and was charged with making child pornography because she was under the age of consent.