Religion

[Alpha1]

I fully believe Kestra, prariecrow, MellaBella, and philpot will all reach Gan Eden before me, because, according to the Jewish frame of mind: THEY ARE BETTER THAN ME.

 

What about me?

 

Story time!

 

Luke 18

 

"Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector.

 

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: 'I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else.

 

For I don't cheat, I don't sin, and I don't commit adultery. I'm certainly not like that tax collector!

 

I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.'

 

But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, 'O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.'

 

I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

 

[Zaxian]

Oh, one more for the list that I posted earlier:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

That's one of my favourite atheist quotes (in that I think it's one of the more pertinent to refuting religion). How can you maintain that your religion's teachings and beliefs are the only true beliefs? If you don't think they are, then that goes against the idea of having faith - and if you do, how can you so easily dismiss the truthfulness of other religions and yet not question your own?*

 

You could argue that some religions are not contradictory - perhaps they present different views of the same truth. But it's simply not true of all religions - one of the most obvious differences is that between the monotheistic Abrahamic religions who are centered around the tenet of a single omnipotent creator God, and a non-theistic religion like Buddhism that, to quote, "explicitly denies that the universe had a start by the act of a creator deity" [see wikipedia]. There is no way those two points of view can be reconciled - they inherently contradict each other.

 

*ETA: Just to point out - this is not meant to be attacking those who do believe in one religion or another. It's just that how people reconcile the existence of other religions vs their own beliefs is something I genuinely struggle to understand!

Edited August 2, 2012 by Zaxian

[NobleOwl]

I'm not sure what the point of quoting Luke 18 was, Alpha -- and I didn't mention everyone. I was attempting to get a point across.

[The Evil Doer]

No, it's not.

 

I'll explain the logic as I see it and you can tell me why my logic is flawed (has happened), picking a muslim for example purposes only

 

Im born a muslim.

Allah is the only god.

Other religions are wrong.

Im right hence Im better than all non-muslims.

 

Now thats what I mean by definition religion teaches you that you are better.

 

From my experience with all religions, jew will favor another jew, christian will favor another christian and muslim will favor another muslim (talking about religious people here) and of course there will be those who simply judge people based on who they are but amongst most of religious people religion will always come first.

Thats my experience, if you feel like religious jews wont favor a jew over a non jew well, do you really think so ? Do you think a religious jew wont have a problem with his son going out with a non-jewish girl ?

 

Not at all!  A Jew is to believe that they are WORSE than every single non-Jew out there who does a mitzvah for no other reason than because it's the right thing to do. For example, I fully believe Kestra, prariecrow, MellaBella, and philpot will all reach Gan Eden before me, because, according to the Jewish frame of mind: THEY ARE BETTER THAN ME.

 

I have never heard a person of any religion say something like that, I have nothing to say except for - I salute you, that is simply remarkable and I wish everyone had a similar state of mind...

 

Do you think btw that most jews think that way ?

 

You'd be wrong.

 

Called it didnt I

 

I do nothing of the sort! In fact, I've repeatedly said that there are limitations on kosher sex.

 

LOL

 

But you're making up negative sides or presenting a fraction of the Orthodox community as a whole. That's the problem. I have many issues with the Orthodox, issues I have spelled out in this very thread -- perhaps not recently, but I don't go around claiming that all Orthodox will randomly stone people when it's not true! I should know, I lived along them long enough.

 

But I said so as well, I said you cant take one movement and say it represent judasim I didnt say orthodox jews represent judaism I just said they are way more extreme than the awesome community you live in, and you dont need all of them to stone you to make the threat a real one, I was told not to drive around a certain area on Saturday coz I might get stoned, I said "come on its 2010 those are just dumb stories", I got a wonderful rock and almost crashed my car, didnt even enter their area...

 

Point out to me the rampant racism in Judaism, please. Because as  a Native American with a Romani wife, neither of us have ever experienced it anywhere.

 

I said you live in a cool community, a quick youtube search, less than 30 seconds later

 

 

and another one

 

My Webpage

 

way too many of those

 

My Webpage

 

Thoughts ?

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[St. Jimmy]

Now thats what I mean by definition religion teaches you that you are better.

This is a huuuuge generalization. Also, you seem to be only thinking of the "big three" religions.

 

I am a Heathen. My religion does not teach us that we are better than others. In fact, no one religion is better than another because different people will have different ways of looking at the world, thus they will have different faiths if any at all.

 

From my experience with all religions, jew will favor another jew, christian will favor another christian and muslim will favor another muslim (talking about religious people here) and of course there will be those who simply judge people based on who they are but amongst most of religious people religion will always come first.

(Ignoring the fact that only the big three are mentioned) I have friends who are Pagan, Christian, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, and spiritual but not religious. I see them as people first and their religion or lack of one after that.

 

[The Evil Doer]

This is a huuuuge generalization. Also, you seem to be only thinking of the "big three" religions.

 

I am a Heathen. My religion does not teach us that we are better than others. In fact, no one religion is better than another because different people will have different ways of looking at the world, thus they will have different faiths if any at all.

 

You are correct I am indeed talking only about the three major ones.

 

Im really unfamiliar with your religion but I can tell you this much, from the way you have described it I might be a Heathen as well

 

Break it down for us if you feel like it, after all its a religion thread so educate us....

 

(Ignoring the fact that only the big three are mentioned) I have friends who are Pagan, Christian, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, and spiritual but not religious. I see them as people first and their religion or lack of one after that.

 

Hey, I have religious friends and they dont judge me based on religion, religious people just like non-religious ones can be cool or not, however they will not consider dating outside their religion for example, and I respect their views and accept them for what they are, I understand its important to them but I still view it as a discrimination of a sort, that is IMO one of the negative elements religions have to offer, not all religions, the big three....

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Princess Artemis]

That doesn't really work for religions that believe that all gods are aspects of one god, or that all gods exist in some form, does it? A little flawed that way.

Indeed. It's trying very hard to prove itself to have the "one true not-a-faith" by ignoring a great many possibilities.

 

If you don't think they are, then that goes against the idea of having faith - and if you do, how can you so easily dismiss the truthfulness of other religions and yet not question your own?*

 

Who said anything about not questioning one's own faith? It happens all the time. Just because people don't conclude "atheism!" or "every religion is right thus none are thus...dur hur...atheism?" does not mean their questioning was dishonest, irrational, or ignorant. People can have radically different worldviews, and it is hard to understand different worldviews.

[prairiecrow]

You could argue that some religions are not contradictory - perhaps they present different views of the same truth. But it's simply not true of all religions - one of the most obvious differences is that between the monotheistic Abrahamic religions who are centered around the tenet of a single omnipotent creator God, and a non-theistic religion like Buddhism that, to quote, "explicitly denies that the universe had a start by the act of a creator deity" [see wikipedia]. There is no way those two points of view can be reconciled - they inherently contradict each other.

 

*ETA: Just to point out - this is not meant to be attacking those who do believe in one religion or another. It's just that how people reconcile the existence of other religions vs their own beliefs is something I genuinely struggle to understand!

A bunch of cats are put together in one room, and proceed to have an argument about where cat food really comes from. One cat, who lives in a shelter, maintains that there are many Givers of cat food, and all food comes from a big bin. Another cat, who lives in a single cat household with a bachelor, claims that all cat food comes from a cupboard high up and is bestowed by a single Giver and that there can't possibly be any other Givers because this cat has never seen food come from anybody else but HER Giver. Another cat, which lives wild on a farm, claims that there is no Giver at all -- that cats are responsible for finding their own food. And so on, and so on, and so on with all the other cats present; some choose sides, religious wars break out, and it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

Personally I believe that any Gods which may exist are at least as far above us as we are above cats, and therefore I have no trouble believing that the beliefs of each religion are potentially equally true (or equally wrong, depending on your POV). If there is a Divine realm, I doubt we're capable of understanding how things are structured in that realm: all we see are signs that we interpret through our limited human minds, without grasping the greater truth behind them and thus without coming up with a coherent overall picture of how things work.

 

YMMV, of course, but I really don't advise getting into a discussion with your cat about where cat food actually comes from -- it'll likely just end up annoying the cat.

Edited August 2, 2012 by prairiecrow

[St. Jimmy]

Im really unfamiliar with your religion but I can tell you this much, from the way you have described it I might be a Heathen as well Break it down for us if you feel like it, after all its a religion thread so educate us....

Well for starters, Ásatrú is the original religion of the Norse people, before Christianity came about. You've probably heard of at least some of our gods (Thor, Odin, Loki - not the Marvel versions! ). We value trying to be the best person we can be and working for a greater good, and not letting fear rule our lives. We also respect our family, especially the ancestors.

 

There is no orignal sin. What is good to one person may not be good for another, and the same goes for evil. We have the freedom to decide which is which without fearing wrath from the gods.

 

We believe we are part of nature and respect it, as it is a way of connecting with the gods.

 

That's the very basics of it. I've only just started learning about a month ago, so I can't say I'm an expert. Here's a good site I found if you want to learn more, though: http://www.asatru.org/index.php

[Alpha1]

I'm not sure what the point of quoting Luke 18 was, Alpha -- and I didn't mention everyone. I was attempting to get a point across.

 

According to the NT, the Pharisees acted elitist as they practiced their rule-bound religion. And that's just the Pharisees. The Sadducees were more elitist. I realize it has a polemical attitude towards the Pharisees, but I guess what I'm getting at is where do you get the idea that Gentiles following the Noahide laws are better than you? I'm not saying you're wrong; it could possibly be just the people disregarding it or being ignorant of it. I'd also like an answer to that question. I think you know I'd get satisfaction if you answered either way.

 

I do nothing of the sort! In fact, I've repeatedly said that there are limitations on kosher sex.

 

Do Jews have sex through a hole in a sheet?

 

A bunch of cats are put together in one room, and proceed to have an argument about where cat food really comes from. One cat, who lives in a shelter, maintains that there are many Givers of cat food, and all food comes from a big bin. Another cat, who lives in a single cat household with a bachelor, claims that all cat food comes from a cupboard high up and is bestowed by a single Giver and that there can't possibly be any other Givers because this cat has never seen food come from anybody else but HER Giver. Another cat, which lives wild on a farm, claims that there is no Giver at all -- that cats are responsible for finding their own food. And so on, and so on, and so on with all the other cats present; some choose sides, religious wars break out, and it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

It's Ceiling Cat

 

This doesn't help show why it's reasonable to believe that religions contradictory to each other can be reconciled. Your analogy is like how Christians argue all the time that we can't fathom God's decision to burn non-believers in hell for an eternity because we're like ants compared to him.

 

 

[Awdz]

This doesn't help show why it's reasonable to believe that religions contradictory to each other can be reconciled.

I've always liked the story about the blind men and the elephant as one to show how people with vividly different beliefs can all be correct in part and yet all wrong - for all would be in agreement if they could just see the whole picture.

 

Six blind men, who did not know what an elephant was, were brought to a tame african elephant so that they could touch it and learn about it.

The first came up to its broad side and said, "It is like a wall."

The second was whipped with its tail and said, "It is like a rope."

A third found its ear, which flapped at his touch, and so he said, "It is like a fan."

A fourth reached out, wrapped his arms around its leg, and said, "It is like a tree."

A fifth man felt the elephant's trunk, which prodded him and wrapped around him. He said, "It is like a big snake!"

The sixth man bumped into the end of the elephant's tusk and said, "It is like a spear."

Each man came away from the elephant sure of his impression, convinced the others were wrong. Later they argued about it at length, each frustrated and angry with the others' stubbornnesses.

 

For me, it does not seem so important what aspect of God is encountered, as much as realizing that God is real and establishing a healthy relationship with God. I find my personal relationship with God through Christianity, but I recognize that others may find theirs through other faiths.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Awdz Bodkins

[Alpha1]

I've always liked the story about the blind men and the elephant as one to show how people with vividly different beliefs can all be correct in part and yet all wrong - for all would be in agreement if they could just see the whole picture.

 

It's a horrible analogy for several reasons.

 

Joke: What if someone finds the elephant's stool? He can rule out a competing viewpoint.

 

The blind men say, "It is like ___". The fact of the matter is they're describing an elephant. Religions make factual claims like the virgin birth. If it's so, then denying it is the wrong position.

 

The elephant is the whole. Yeah... they're all guessing these different things which are all wrong. The elephant represents atheism!

 

This also doesn't take into account a possibility where a man with sight (an atheist ) comes on the scene and just tells it like it is.

[pudding]

It's a horrible analogy for several reasons.

 

Joke: What if someone finds the elephant's stool? He can rule out a competing viewpoint. 

 

The blind men say, "It is like ___". The fact of the matter is they're describing an elephant. Religions make factual claims like the virgin birth. If it's so, then denying it is the wrong position.

 

The elephant is the whole. Yeah... they're all guessing these different things which are all wrong. The elephant represents atheism!

 

This also doesn't take into account a possibility where a man with sight (an atheist  ) comes on the scene and just tells it like it is.

Actually, the analogy isn't very bad. We have this thing we are not sure of (An Elephant) and everyone takes a guess as to what it is. The way you are putting it, the atheist knows everything about the elephant when, actually, he doesn't. Besides, even if a man with sight told them it was an elephant, they already have their opinions and probably won't believe him anyway. That is how it works, is it not? Every time I try to convince someone about something they don't believe in, they just keep denying it. Isn't that the reason we have debates in the first place?

Edited August 4, 2012 by pudding

[Princess Artemis]

Actually, the analogy isn't very bad. We have this thing we are not sure of (An Elephant) and everyone takes a guess as to what it is. The way you are putting it, the atheist knows everything about the elephant when, actually, he doesn't. Besides, even if a man with sight told them it was an elephant, they already have their opinions and probably won't believe him anyway. That is how it works, is it not? Every time I try to convince someone about something they don't believe in, they just keep denying it. Isn't that the reason we have debates in the first place?

There are, of course, some atheists that are very, very sure that they know everything, just as there are some religious people that are very, very sure that they know everything.

 

The analogy is a good one. The people who are very, very certain they know everything are just the ones that shout the loudest about how they can so tell you exactly what is being examined. Seems like Alpha1 is just demonstrating how good the analogy actually is, intentionally or not, well, I'll leave that to you to decide : )

[teslakana]

if you were born in israel, you'd probably be jewish

 

if you were born in saudi arabia you'd probably be muslim

 

if you wre born in india you'd probably be hindu

if you were born in the UK or USA you'd probably be christian

 

faith is not inspired by some divine, constant truth;

 

it's simply GEOGRAPHY

[hazeh]

I was born in the USA and I'm an agnostic atheist. o_O

 

 

Anyway, some stories I wanted to share. (Apparently I'm not allowed to share too many details so bear with me here) There was a particular class going on that had something to do with grief and loss and ethics and whatnot. Anyway, the cases they presented were fictional but were brought up for debate/ discussion purposes. One of the cases that was talked about was about how a newborn baby was failing in health and was expected to die, so without notifying anyone, the nurse took it upon herself to baptize the baby. The nurse then was telling her co workers about this and it was overheard by one of the baby's family members, and the family was jewish.

 

So, as the class was discussing this, one of the students that had been a nurse in the neonatal (or whatever the sick baby unit is) for like, 20 years spoke up about how she knew of a nurse that just went around doing baptisms on babies. Without saying anything to the parents. She just went ahead and did it! The lady who said this apparently didn't understand how that was wrong and kept going "Well it's not hurting anyone!". Well, duh, yes it is. And the lady KNEW it was wrong because she wasn't saying anything to anyone!

 

There was also an instance, apparently, of how that lady and her co workers were playing Christian music in the unit, and a doctor that worked there (along with his wife, who also worked there and just had a baby there) was offended because they were Jewish. I mean, come on.

 

I just don't understand how those people think it's okay to do that.

[KageSora]

I was born in the USA and I'm an agnostic atheist. o_O

 

 

Anyway, some stories I wanted to share. (Apparently I'm not allowed to share too many details so bear with me here) There was a particular class going on that had something to do with grief and loss and ethics and whatnot. Anyway, the cases they presented were fictional but were brought up for debate/ discussion purposes. One of the cases that was talked about was about how a newborn baby was failing in health and was expected to die, so without notifying anyone, the nurse took it upon herself to baptize the baby. The nurse then was telling her co workers about this and it was overheard by one of the baby's family members, and the family was jewish.

 

So, as the class was discussing this, one of the students that had been a nurse in the neonatal (or whatever the sick baby unit is) for like, 20 years spoke up about how she knew of a nurse that just went around doing baptisms on babies. Without saying anything to the parents. She just went ahead and did it! The lady who said this apparently didn't understand how that was wrong and kept going "Well it's not hurting anyone!". Well, duh, yes it is. And the lady KNEW it was wrong because she wasn't saying anything to anyone!

I think they were more saying it's more likely that you'll be raised by people of a certain religion, and therefore are more likely to be of that religion. I do agree with that. I highly doubt I'd have ever had anything to do with Christianity at all if my parents hadn't been Roman Catholic. If they'd been some other religion, I'd probably have started off that way, too--and possibly still been that way rather than changing my views as I have now.

 

Though obviously not everybody ends up following the religion of their parents, or lack thereof for that matter.

 

 

I think that's horrible that she was baptizing babies without the consent of the parents. That's just... Ugh. I have no words that wouldn't get me warned to describe that. '

[hazeh]

I think they were more saying it's more likely that you'll be raised by people of a certain religion, and therefore are more likely to be of that religion. I do agree with that. I highly doubt I'd have ever had anything to do with Christianity at all if my parents hadn't been Roman Catholic. If they'd been some other religion, I'd probably have started off that way, too--and possibly still been that way rather than changing my views as I have now.

 

Though obviously not everybody ends up following the religion of their parents, or lack thereof for that matter.

 

She was pointing out geographic regions, not really saying anything about parents. Which I'm not really sure I agree with. Even though there are a lot of Christians in the US, one of my mothers and I are atheist. My other mother converted to Judaism. I don't think region really factors into it, I think it's a person's personal identification with their god and their own thoughts/morals on the subject. Not where they live. (Though yes, many areas have predominant religions. But that doesn't mean we're "probably" one religion or another.)

[7Deadly$ins]

She was pointing out geographic regions, not really saying anything about parents. Which I'm not really sure I agree with. Even though there are a lot of Christians in the US, one of my mothers and I are atheist. My other mother converted to Judaism. I don't think region really factors into it, I think it's a person's personal identification with their god and their own thoughts/morals on the subject. Not where they live. (Though yes, many areas have predominant religions. But that doesn't mean we're "probably" one religion or another.)

No... I think region definitely has to do with it. I personally think that in the majority of cases, choosing a religion is the parents' decision. If I had waited until I was old enough to make a decision, I'd have never considered myself Christian in the first place. In terms of region, had I been born in the middle-east or in Africa or many other parts of Asia, it's highly unlikely that I'd have discovered and decided to become Christian all on my very own, when statistically my parents wouldn't have been, either.

[KageSora]

She was pointing out geographic regions, not really saying anything about parents. Which I'm not really sure I agree with. Even though there are a lot of Christians in the US, one of my mothers and I are atheist. My other mother converted to Judaism. I don't think region really factors into it, I think it's a person's personal identification with their god and their own thoughts/morals on the subject. Not where they live. (Though yes, many areas have predominant religions. But that doesn't mean we're "probably" one religion or another.)

I took it to mean geographically, those areas have high concentrations of certain religious groups. And while it's true that not everybody ends up the religion of their parents, a lot of people do end up following their parents religion. They may explore other options and decided that what they were raised with felt right, they may simply reject everything else because they've never known anything else.

 

So I think she was just pointing out that, while it's certainly not a guarantee, you're more likely to be influenced by certain religions in certain areas because of the concentration of those religions in those areas. Especially with, as I said, a lot of people sticking with the religion their parents belong to.

 

But, as I said, not all of us do that.

 

 

ETA: I mean, where you live and what your parents believe isn't the sole deciding factor, obviously, but it does play a large role a lot of the time. Not everybody has a strong sense of what does or does not click for them with religion, and just go with what they've been taught from their parents.

Edited August 5, 2012 by KageSora

[Princess Artemis]

So, as the class was discussing this, one of the students that had been a nurse in the neonatal (or whatever the sick baby unit is) for like, 20 years spoke up about how she knew of a nurse that just went around doing baptisms on babies.

That's absolutely unethical. I don't think removing her from her work would be out of the question.

 

There was also an instance, apparently, of how that lady and her co workers were playing Christian music in the unit, and a doctor that worked there (along with his wife, who also worked there and just had a baby there) was offended because they were Jewish. I mean, come on.

 

This I don't understand. Please explain what this means in the context of your post? You went from a staggeringly unethical nurse to...a doctor who got his boxers in a bunch over his co-worker's music. I am confused!

[hazeh]

That's absolutely unethical. I don't think removing her from her work would be out of the question.

 

 

 

This I don't understand. Please explain what this means in the context of your post? You went from a staggeringly unethical nurse to...a doctor who got his boxers in a bunch over his co-worker's music. I am confused!

I hope she gets fired at some point, yes!

 

 

It was the same woman who spoke up about her baptism-crazy co-worker about how she played Christian music in the unit and it offended the Jewish doctors that had just had a baby and were staying in the unit, and the woman didn't understand how that was offensive. It was simply just another instance I was pointing out.

[Kestra15]

This I don't understand. Please explain what this means in the context of your post? You went from a staggeringly unethical nurse to...a doctor who got his boxers in a bunch over his co-worker's music. I am confused!

Because it is on the same spectrum of respecting the rights of others. I personally cannot stand Christian music anyway, but moreso why should the Jewish doctor and Muslim patient be forced to listen to that music? As Shiny said, ultimately it's pointing out how some people do not understand that their religion is not the religion that everyone else subscribes to.

 

Although it could be worse - could have been Justin Bieber. Followed by Rebecca Black.

[Awdz]

I hope she gets fired at some point, yes!

 

 

It was the same woman who spoke up about her baptism-crazy co-worker about how she played Christian music in the unit and it offended the Jewish doctors that had just had a baby and were staying in the unit, and the woman didn't understand how that was offensive. It was simply just another instance I was pointing out.

Look, I can understand that the Jewish doctors did not like the music and could request something different. But to say you hope someone gets fired for playing music that they like, just because it has a Christian theme? That seems over the top, unless she consistently refused to change it (or at least turn it off) during their stay after the patients said it caused them distress.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Awdz Bodkins

[Kestra15]

Look, I can understand that the Jewish doctors did not like the music and could request something different. But to say you hope someone gets fired for playing music that they like, just because it has a Christian theme? That seems over the top, unless she consistently refused to change it (or at least turn it off) during their stay after the patients said it caused them distress.

I think you'll find Shiny is more referring to the unwanted baptisms - the music is just illustrating how unaware that nurse is.

 

As for her being fired - I certainly support disciplinary action. Fired maybe, but not struck off.