Religion

[The Evil Doer]

Most orthodox rabbis will do all they can to convert an agnostic jew into a "proper" jew (one that keeps shabbath and all that other drama) as its considered a huge mitzvah to do so, with that being said a priest a rabbi or any other "god's servent" can be cool about it and respect your choices or can be pushy about it and try to convert you, to think otherwise or to generalize all priests/rabbis based on personal encounters is simply put flawed logic...

 

All religions preach the same thing with their own kink added to it, within every religion individuality will play a major role and as such priests/rabbis will be either cool or not based on their personality and the society they were raised within.

 

Religion in my eyes is a nice idea that turned into a total miss...

[eritated]

Others can feel free to add to my list but here are a few that I commonly use:

 

1) The Bible is not a reliable source as it was written by many authors thousands of years ago who were recording oral history/tradition. I assume all of us have played Whisper Down the Lane when we were children so it is easy to know what happens to oral history over time. As soon as you take out the Bible, it is hard for religious arguments to stand.

 

2) Religion changes. We went from multiple gods to one God. If God did exist, why did he not inform the Romans instead of letting them go on with their whole 'multiple gods' bit? And the Greeks? Oh, and we mustn't forget about the early humans who were just figuring out how to hunt wooly mammoths.

 

3) Science! Many atheists like to believe in the guys with lab coats and petri dishes that can prove what they are doing is true using evidence we can see, feel, hear, touch or taste. Since God cannot be seen, felt, heard, touched or tasted, many atheists feel they need something more than a book to prove he exists.

Those are some very good points ^-^

 

I mainly use science, and I also talk about how if a god existed, why is all this bad stuff happening? Why are children starving, why are people murdered, etc.

 

I also ask questions about stuff from the bible.

Ex: Why is it that god created the world out of nothing, but had to create Eve from Adam's rib?

 

Another thing I ask about is this.

[7Deadly$ins]

Those are some very good points ^-^

 

I mainly use science, and I also talk about how if a god existed, why is all this bad stuff happening? Why are children starving, why are people murdered, etc.

 

I also ask questions about stuff from the bible.

Ex: Why is it that god created the world out of nothing, but had to create Eve from Adam's rib?

 

Another thing I ask about is this.

In regards to the "why does bad stuff happen," that argument won't really get you far with an actual Christian. The story goes that none of that would happen, but because of the Original Sin we have free-will now (long-story short) and all of that comes from that event.

[hazeh]

"God works in mysterious ways".

[Kestra15]

Religion in my eyes is a nice idea that turned into a total miss...

Agreed.

[SoiledLove]

... I have no idea what we're talking about here at this very moment, but I'm part Christian... And I'm a Pegan.

 

I just heard the most interesting thing about religion from my friends. There is a religion that praises a flying spaghetti monster and ends their prayers with ramen instead of amen.

 

I have no idea if that's true or not but it sounds cool.

[NobleOwl]

Most orthodox rabbis will do all they can to convert an agnostic jew into a "proper" jew (one that keeps shabbath and all that other drama) as its considered a huge mitzvah to do so, with that being said a priest a rabbi or any other "god's servent" can be cool about it and respect your choices or can be pushy about it and try to convert you, to think otherwise or to generalize all priests/rabbis based on personal encounters is simply put flawed logic...

 

I believe we're talking about gentiles going to shuls. What you're talking about is an entirely different animal, and even then there are distinct halachic rules, so they can't do "all they can."

 

CHRISTIANITY VS. JUDAISM FUN FACT #2

 

1. In most forms of Christianity, there is a hell. This is why conversion is so important, because only Christians can reach G-d/Heaven.

 

2. In Judaism, there is no hell. Everyone reaches G-d, and a righteous gentile will actually reach G-d prior to a righteous Jew. This is why conversion is actively discouraged.

[The Evil Doer]

I believe we're talking about gentiles going to shuls. What you're talking about is an entirely different animal, and even then there are distinct halachic rules, so they can't do "all they can."

 

CHRISTIANITY VS. JUDAISM FUN FACT #2

 

1. In most forms of Christianity, there is a hell. This is why conversion is so important, because only Christians can reach G-d/Heaven.

 

2. In Judaism, there is no hell. Everyone reaches G-d, and a righteous gentile will actually reach G-d prior to a righteous Jew. This is why conversion is actively discouraged.

In judaism there is a gan eden and gehenom which is another version of hell and heaven, righteous ones go to eden, the others dont, the only difference is that judaism doesnt rock afterlife concept as hard as christianity does, thats all...

 

No need to take it literally, of course they wont beat you into becoming a "proper jew", priests wont do that either, however when you say "judaism view" on egnostic people is... or "judaism view" on homosexuals is or judaism view on yada yada yada is you're basically talking about a Reform Judaism which is just one movement and the most progressive movement amongst jews.

 

You're portraying judaism as way cooler than christianity when in fact what you're not telling people here is that you're talking about the most laid back progressive movement of judaism which is the reform judaism, lets get the facts straight here, there are three major movements : reform, conservative and orthodox movement.

 

Reform judaism VS Orthodox judaism a really not fun fact #1

 

1. In reform judaism, nobleowl gets to marry a non-jew, furthermore a woman, and to have kids with her, she gets to be a part of her jewish community and gets accepted and loved by her community, I completely agree with her that it is a remarkable and a cool community...

 

2. In Orthodox judaism, nobleowl isnt accepted into the jewish community, furhtermore she gets rocks thrown at her (and her family), gets spat on and if she values her life and the lives of her loved ones she leaves the community asap

 

So yes, judaism is just as extreme as other religions. Those are the facts omitted in your reference to judaism...

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[NobleOwl]

In judaism there is a gan eden and gehenom which is another version of hell and heaven, righteous ones go to eden, the others dont, the only difference is that judaism doesnt rock afterlife concept as hard as christianity does, thats all...

 

Gehoren is not permanent. It's not "the righteous ones go to gan eden, the others done." The longest you can be in it is one year. That is nothing like Hell.

 

No need to take it literally, of course they wont beat you into becoming a "proper jew", priests wont do that either, however when you say "judaism view" on egnostic people is... or "judaism view" on homosexuals is or judaism view on yada yada yada is you're basically talking about a Reform Judaism which is just one movement and the most progressive movement amongst jews.

 

I never talk about Reform Judaism. I'm quite critical about Reform Judaism.

 

You're portraying judaism as way cooler than christianity when in fact what you're not telling people here is that you're talking about the most laid back progressive movement of judaism which is the reform judaism, lets get the facts straight here, there are three major movements : reform, conservative and orthodox movement.

 

I've always explained the FOUR movements. And I'm Conservadox, for your information.

 

1. In reform judaism, nobleowl gets to marry a non-jew, furthermore a woman, and to have kids with her, she gets to be a part of her jewish community and gets accepted and loved by her community, I completely agree with her that it is a remarkable and a cool community...

 

Oh, please, tell me about myself more. I really enjoy it.

 

I attend a Conservadox synagogue. I do not attend Reform. My wife CONVERTED to Judaism, under the auspices of two Conservative and two Orthodox rabbis. Not all of our community loves and accepts us -- that's true, because we choose to attend a CONSERVADOX shul.

 

2. In Orthodox judaism, nobleowl isnt accepted into the jewish community, furhtermore she gets rocks thrown at her (and her family), gets spat on and if she values her life and the lives of her loved ones she leaves the community asap

 

Incorrect! I've lived in several Orthodox communities, my grandmother is Haredi, and I've never had a rock thrown at me or my family spat on. We regularly stay in a full Haredi community when we are in Israel.

 

So yes, judaism is just as extreme as other religions. Those are the facts omitted in your reference to judaism...

 

I don't know where you've been, but perhaps you should go back to Hebrew School.

Edited August 2, 2012 by NobleOwl

[The Evil Doer]

Gehoren is not permanent. It's not "the righteous ones go to gan eden, the others done." The longest you can be in it is one year. That is nothing like Hell.

 

I dont even know what gehoren is I said gehenom

 

I never talk about Reform Judaism. I'm quite critical about Reform Judaism.

 

My bad then, but still when you say "judaism" you're actually talking about only one movement instead of judaism as a whole...

 

I've always explained the FOUR movements. And I'm Conservadox, for your information.

 

Like I said, my bad, apologies, however here it was pretty much you showing only the cool sides of judaism which is really not what judaism is all about so I didnt really notice you explaining all the sides...

 

Oh, please, tell me about myself more. I really enjoy it.

 

I attend a Conservadox synagogue. I do not attend Reform. My wife CONVERTED to Judaism, under the auspices of two Conservative and two Orthodox rabbis. Not all of our community loves and accepts us -- that's true, because we choose to attend a CONSERVADOX shul.

 

Again, as I said, my bad....

 

Incorrect! I've lived in several Orthodox communities, my grandmother is Haredi, and I've never had a rock thrown at me or my family spat on. We regularly stay in a full Haredi community when we are in Israel.

 

First of all, visiting and living in a community are not the one and the same, second of all where do you stay in Israel ? I doubt you are staying in Jerusalem for example a mea shearim community coz they wont have gays there and they will stone the living crap out of you, orthodox jews show zero tolerance, sent you a few youtube videos I just found in less than 30 seconds about how tolerant they are to anything that goes against their set of rules...

 

If you have visited Israel and never experienced the vicious nature of orthodox jews Im both shocked and glad for you, coz from my humble experience jews and muslims are one level above that of extreme christians...

 

here's another cool story I've heard of, check it out...

 

My Webpage

 

I don't know where you've been, but perhaps you should go back to Hebrew School.

 

Perhaps, or perhaps you should view judaism from a less biased perspective....

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[NobleOwl]

I dont even know what gehoren is unsure.gif I said gehenom

Gehenna/Gehenom/Gehoren -- it all refers to the same thing.

 

My bad then, but still when you say "judaism" you're actually talking about only one movement instead of judaism as a whole...

 

If there is a different opinion in one of the movements, I mention it.

 

Like I said, my bad, apologies, however here it was pretty much you showing only the cool sides of judaism which is really not what judaism is all about so I didnt really notice you explaining all the sides...

 

I think you want to show what you see as a "nasty" side or cruel side -- but proselytizing is forbidden in all forms of Judaism -- Orthodox is the strictest on that. Haredi even debates if women have to undergo a conversion ceremony. You referred explicitly to an agnostic Jew, which is throwing a completely different situation in from what we were talking about -- and agnostic says nothing about level of observance.

 

First of all, visiting and living in a community are not the one and the same, second of all where do you stay in Israel ? I doubt you are staying in Jerusalem for example a mea shearim community coz they wont have gays there and they will stone the living crap out of you, orthodox jews show zero tolerance, sent you a few youtube videos I just found in less than 30 seconds about how tolerant they are to anything that goes against their set of rules...

 

We stay either in Jerusalem (Geula, right next to Mea Shearim) or in Rehovot, Israel, both in Haredim houses. You say that, but it completely contradicts my own experience. I'm not saying it never happens, but I'm saying it's not exactly common, either. I've never had anyone "stone the crap out of me". In Israel, anyway -- when I did have rocks thrown at me, it was by Christians, once in Berkeley, once in Constanta, the former because I was going to a shul, the other because I was with my Romani wife.

 

If you have visited Israel and never experienced the vicious nature of orthodox jews Im both shocked and glad for you, coz from my humble experience jews and muslims are one level above that of extreme christians...

 

How much experience do you have with them? I went to a Bais Yaakov in a Haredi community, before going on to a midrasha, and several courses at a Modern Orthodox yeshiva.

 

Perhaps, or perhaps you should view judaism from a less biased perspective....

 

What about you? Why don't you view Judaism as "less biased?"

[Zaxian]

I just heard the most interesting thing about religion from my friends. There is a religion that praises a flying spaghetti monster and ends their prayers with ramen instead of amen.

 

I have no idea if that's true or not but it sounds cool.

That's Pastafarianism. It's a satirical religion used as an example of the "absurdity of teaching intelligent design in schools as an alternative to evolution".

 

See also Russell's teapot:

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.

[The Evil Doer]

What about you? Why don't you view Judaism as "less biased?"

 

Im viewing judaism with same bias Im viewing other religions (which makes me less biased than you, IMO), I wouldnt mind having the same conversation about islam or christianity coz they have just as many bad sides as judaism has, its just that you're portraying judaism as something it isnt, a religion tolerant to all...

 

Jews are the chosen people, and as such many of them view themselves as better than anyone else (the same applies to other religions), in Talmud, one of jewish sacred books it says you can steal from or trick non-jews, as long as you're not doing wrong to another jew its kosher (to me its simply put disgusting) judaism just like christianity and islam preaches zero tolerance in many aspects, it has a similar rape mentality other religions have, there is nothing better or worse in judaism when compared to christianity or islam, judaism has a lot of racism in it, sheep mentality, fanataic behavior and many other negative aspects all religions have, does it have positive attributes as well ? of course it does, as do islam and christianity, when its all said and done, judaism isnt better nor worse than other religions, thats all Im saying, since I have a similar opinion on all religions, I think it makes me less biased...

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[St. Jimmy]

Jews are the chosen people, and as such many of them view themselves as better than anyone else (the same applies to other religions)

Just out of curiosity, what do you have to say about the people who believe all the gods are real in some form, and different gods choose different people (and some don't need to be chosen at all)? By this logic, wouldn't it make everyone "chosen people"?

[The Evil Doer]

Just out of curiosity, what do you have to say about the people who believe all the gods are real in some form, and different gods choose different people (and some don't need to be chosen at all)? By this logic, wouldn't it make everyone "chosen people"?

If you're asking whether I have an issue with religious people, I dont, do your thing as long you're not harming anyone nor pushing your beliefs on others we're cool...

If you believe in gods in some forms and that everyone is chosen or doesn't need to be chosen then you're basically claiming we're all equals, I'm all for that, if your religion however says you're better than someone else just coz of your/his religion, I have a problem with you.... Hope i answered what was asked...

[Kestra15]

If you're asking whether I have an issue with religious people, I dont, do your thing as long you're not harming anyone nor pushing your beliefs on others we're cool...

If you believe in gods in some forms and that everyone is chosen or doesn't need to be chosen then you're basically claiming we're all equals, I'm all for that, if your religion however says you're better than someone else just coz of your/his religion, I have a problem with you.... Hope i answered what was asked...

...but NobleOwl is not saying hers is 'better,' merely what it entails - and when it is appropriate, showing how it is different to Christianity. There is a very widespread misconception that Jews are simply Christians who only read half the Bible, but they are (as NobleOwl has laboriously and rather neutrally pointed over the years) as different and diverse a religion as any other.

[lightbird]

I always thought that the "chosen" factor for Jews meant that they are chosen by God to obey his rules, not that they're chosen = better.

[NobleOwl]

Im viewing judaism with same bias Im viewing other religions (which makes me less biased than you, IMO), I wouldnt mind having the same conversation about islam or christianity coz they have just as many bad sides as judaism has, its just that you're portraying judaism as something it isnt, a religion tolerant to all...

 

Not necessarily. When you're viewing it as anti-theist and let's make all religions out to be equally cruel based on the actions of the few.

 

Jews are the chosen people, and as such many of them view themselves as better than anyone else

 

If you knew so much about Judaism, you know that the idea of the "chosen people" actually makes them worse than the gentiles. Chosen people chosen to do what, theologically? Follow 613 laws, as opposed to 8. Chosen people chosen to be made an example of -- when חסידי אומות העולם‎, The righteous of the world's nations, reach G-d before the righteous Jew in EVERY sect, though Reform is trying to make it so it's not weighted at all to make it more "fair."

 

n Talmud, one of jewish sacred books it says you can steal from or trick non-jews, as long as you're not doing wrong to another jew its kosher

 

Citations please.

 

Talmud Avot 3:10

 

Whoever is pleasing to his fellow creatures is pleasing to G-d; but whoever is not pleasing to his fellow creatures, G-d is not pleased with him.

 

Talmud Avot 3:14

 

Beloved is man who was created in the divine image. An extra amount of love is given to him because he was created in the divine image as it says

 

Tto be specific as to treatment of the righteous gentile, I could go on for ages:

Talmud Pesachim 21b; Talmud Avodah Zarah 65b; Nachmanides, Additions to Book of Commandments, 16; Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Zechi'ah Umattanah 3:11, Hilchot Melachim 10:12; Ra'avad of Posquieres, Comments to Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Issurei Biah 14:8 to start with.

 

since I have a similar opinion on all religions, I think it makes me less biased...

 

No, hating all religions and being against religion, and looking for things to prove your points that all religions have a " rape mentality" does not make you less biased. I am fully willing to admit that there are things that are not good about the Law, and fully able to admit there are differences in opinion. I can, however, also see the good in other religions. You seem to want to prove your point, rather than listening.

[lightbird]

You seem to want to prove your point, rather than listening.

As far as I remember, he's always been doing that, hence why after receiving an insulting and ignorant comment about my home country a long while ago I don't even try to argue with him about anything...

Edited August 2, 2012 by lightbird

[The Evil Doer]

Not necessarily. When you're viewing it as anti-theist and let's make all religions out to be equally cruel based on the actions of the few.

 

I am not an anti-theist, I am anti certain aspects of religions, certain aspects that are present in every major religion, in a same manner I do believe that there are many positive aspects in religions.

Saying all muslims are terrorists would be trashing an entire religion based on the actions of a selected few, that would be pure ignorance, when I say christians/jews/muslims believe they're better than other religions thats not a belief of a selected few, thats the state of mind of a religious person is it not ?

 

I have dated most colors and religions out there, my parents would never even dream of asking whether my g/f is white/black/jewish/muslim/anything however one of my exes was Iranian and she had to drop me coz I wasnt a muslim, hence not worthy of her, most religious people will first judge you based on your religion and then based on what kinda person you are, a religious muslim believes he is better than a non-muslim, the same rule applies to christians and jews, that is the state of mind, and some of them will be straight about it and say it loud, others will be politically correct about it.

 

When you say, Im a christian hence Im better than a non-christian then I have a problem with that aspect of religion, and that exists in every religion IMO..

 

If you knew so much about Judaism, you know that the idea of the "chosen people" actually makes them worse than the gentiles. Chosen people chosen to do what, theologically? Follow 613 laws, as opposed to 8. Chosen people chosen to be made an example of -- when חסידי אומות העולם‎, The righteous of the world's nations, reach G-d before the righteous Jew in EVERY sect, though Reform is trying to make it so it's not weighted at all to make it more "fair."

 

Im not talking about the definition as it is in the tanakh, Im talking about what religious christian/muslim/jew believes, a true muslim MUST believe that he is better than a non-muslim coz by the definition his god is the true god hence he must be better than someone who doesnt believe in a true god, thats what all religions claim, thats what means to be the chosen one - I was born a jew, Elokim is one true god hence by definition Im better than all the non believers, thats the basic state of mind of a religious person, do we agree on that one ?

 

Citations please.

 

Talmud Avot 3:10

 

Whoever is pleasing to his fellow creatures is pleasing to G-d; but whoever is not pleasing to his fellow creatures, G-d is not pleased with him.

 

Talmud Avot 3:14

 

Beloved is man who was created in the divine image. An extra amount of love is given to him because he was created in the divine image as it says

 

Tto be specific as to treatment of the righteous gentile, I could go on for ages:

Talmud Pesachim 21b; Talmud Avodah Zarah 65b; Nachmanides, Additions to Book of Commandments, 16; Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Zechi'ah Umattanah 3:11, Hilchot Melachim 10:12; Ra'avad of Posquieres, Comments to Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Issurei Biah 14:8 to start with.

 

Havent got the book here, I can get back to you later with it, regarding your quotes, I agree with everything said there, I agree that there a lot of positive things in Judaism....

 

No, hating all religions and being against religion, and looking for things to prove your points that all religions have a " rape mentality" does not make you less biased. I am fully willing to admit that there are things that are not good about the Law, and fully able to admit there are differences in opinion. I can, however, also see the good in other religions. You seem to want to prove your point, rather than listening.

 

Im not looking to prove a point about rape metality, Im not hating all religions, whats really going on here anyhow ? its a thread about religion, you are jewish, you love your religion and its a big part of who you are, people are ignorant about judaism, and in a world where hating jews is considered cool its one might say your calling/duty to educate people on judaism (I might be wrong though) obviously you make judaism look sexy and cool, liz136 and timmy83 havent got a clue what judaism is at all so what you say is what sticks and with all due respect its just a partial true as you're showing just one side of the coin, I agree that there are many positive aspects in judaism however I say there are also negative ones and Im bringing those up coz I believe that a thread about religion should inform liz136 and timmy83 about both sides of the coin and then once they have the full information let them form their own opinion on the subject, thats what Im doing, and even though you say Im anti-theist and that I hate judaism (youre entitled to think so btw) if you suddenly start trashing judaism and suddenly there is only negative stuff about it I will bring the positive stuff up coz as I said in a thread about religion both sides should be present otherwise people cant make their own minds...

 

You say you're willing to listen but are you really ? It seems to me you refuse to see the negative sides of judaism and are still portraying some peachy picture of it, I look at judaism and I see its positive sides but I also see many of the negative elements which are also present in other religions like elitism, discrimination, racism....

Edited August 2, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Kestra15]

Im not hating all religions, whats really going on here anyhow

You do seem to be doing nothing more than just hating on anyone and anything in any subject.

[The Evil Doer]

You do seem to be doing nothing more than just hating on anyone and anything in any subject.

Pick one of the things I said with which you dont agree and speak your mind, I'm listening, that is way more productive than what you did there....

[NobleOwl]

when I say christians/jews/muslims believe they're better than other religions thats not a belief of a selected few, thats the state of mind of a religious person is it not ?

 

No, it's not.

 

I was born a jew, Elokim is one true god hence by definition Im better than all the non believers, thats the basic state of mind of a religious person, do we agree on that one ?

 

Not at all! A Jew is to believe that they are WORSE than every single non-Jew out there who does a mitzvah for no other reason than because it's the right thing to do. For example, I fully believe Kestra, prariecrow, MellaBella, and philpot will all reach Gan Eden before me, because, according to the Jewish frame of mind: THEY ARE BETTER THAN ME.

 

one might say your calling/duty to educate people on judaism (I might be wrong though)

 

You'd be wrong.

 

obviously you make judaism look sexy and cool,

 

I do nothing of the sort! In fact, I've repeatedly said that there are limitations on kosher sex.

 

I agree that there are many positive aspects in judaism however I say there are also negative ones and Im bringing those up coz I believe that a thread about religion should inform liz136 and timmy83 about both sides of the coin and then once they have the full information let them form their own opinion on the subject, thats what Im doing, and even though you say Im anti-theist and that I hate judaism (youre entitled to think so btw) if you suddenly start trashing judaism and suddenly there is only negative stuff about it I will bring the positive stuff up coz as I said in a thread about religion both sides should be present otherwise people cant make their own minds...

 

 

But you're making up negative sides or presenting a fraction of the Orthodox community as a whole. That's the problem. I have many issues with the Orthodox, issues I have spelled out in this very thread -- perhaps not recently, but I don't go around claiming that all Orthodox will randomly stone people when it's not true! I should know, I lived along them long enough.

 

You say you're willing to listen but are you really ? It seems to me you refuse to see the negative sides of judaism and are still portraying some peachy picture of it, I look at judaism and I see its positive sides but I also see many of the negative elements which are also present in other religions like elitism, discrimination, racism....

 

Point out to me the rampant racism in Judaism, please. Because as a Native American with a Romani wife, neither of us have ever experienced it anywhere.

[pudding]

Oh, one more for the list that I posted earlier:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

 

[NobleOwl]

Oh, one more for the list that I posted earlier:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

That doesn't really work for religions that believe that all gods are aspects of one god, or that all gods exist in some form, does it? A little flawed that way.