Religion

[Alpha1]

And doesn't this version of the "death of Jesus" story appear in only one of the Gospels?

 

Nope. They share a lot of the same stuff. Even in the Gospel of John, Pilate avoids responsibility.

 

 

 

[Awdz]

We watched a movie, Evan Almighty, and I found it quite offensive, because it was relaying religious messages.

I never saw Evan Almighty, so I googled it. It sounded like it spoofed a biblical story far too much to be taken seriously by me. Frankly, it seems like folks should complain about a lousy plot with really hokey happenings rather than any religious affiliation it has.

 

As for restricting it from a school, please note that I also find it a little close-minded that rather than learn about and debunk what conflicts with your tenets, you would rather exclude it from your experiences altogether. As I did not see the movie, I figure I must be missing something.

 

What religious messages did you take from it?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Awdz Bodkins

[hazeh]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but, what's a Gentile? ._.

 

About Evan Almighty;

I'm atheist, and I loved that movie. I thought it was funny, just like Bruce Almighty. Just because it portrayed a popular biblical story doesn't mean it was actually advocating religion in any way. If anything it was just a parody of it. o_O I could see how some really touchy religious folks might get a little red in the neck about it, but I have no idea how an atheist would get offended over that movie. At all. Seems a little counter-intuitive.

 

 

Edit: In French class I watched a movie called The 8th Day. It had a heavier religious connotation than Evan Almighty does and I found nothing wrong with it at all. Evan Almighty is a comedy, not a film meant to indoctrinate anyone.

o_O

Edited July 20, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Awdz]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but, what's a Gentile? ._.

I believe "Gentile" is the Jewish term for a non-Jew.

 

 

As for the stories of who killed Jesus, what I was taught is that Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a hero's welcome right before the highest holy days, then proceeded to raise a ruckus in the temple with throwing out the moneychangers and such. The temple leaders were obviously not happy about this; some were even concerned that this upstart was going to lead to the downfall of Judaism. They tried to discuss the situation with Him, but He insulted the temple leadership instead of behaving like a good Jew and settling down. It was after all that that they arranged to have him arrested and pushed for his execution.

 

So yes, Jesus was a Jew, He was executed under Roman law, and some of the temple leadership at the time were behind his conviction. As was already stated, it's ridiculous to hold Jews today accountable for what a few of the Jews back then did. Even on the cross, Jesus asked that those involved be forgiven, "for they know not what they do."

 

Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection supposedly enabled the salvation of the world, so shouldn't Christians thank the Jews? Without the Jews killing Jesus, wouldn't everybody going to hell according to your doctrine anyway?

I was never taught to encourage those with intent to destroy rather than help. Besides, they lived long ago; there are extremists in every generation, of every faith/race/gender/etc.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Awdz Bodkins

[NobleOwl]

...So who was it?!

 

The Romans. They killed him in a Roman fashion, if the Jews had killed him, he would have been stoned.

 

Wait, wasn't Jesus a Jew? O_o

 

A very bad Jew, but a Jew. From a Jewish perspective.

 

And all the people yelled back, "We will take responsibility for his death--we and our children!"

 

And this bit? Screams written by someone who was not a Jew, since someone bearing the sin or blood of someone else is impossible. Which is also why a dying messiah is impossible in Judaism. No one can bear the sins of another, nor can children bear the sin of their parents.

 

I don't know what you mean by "Jewish comedy". blink.gif It's a comedic movie about a story from the religious text of Judaism/Christianity. Does that make it a Jewish comedy?

 

It's from the Christian perspective of the ark, so if anything, it would be a Christian comedy.

 

The story goes that Caiaphas (Jewish high priest) turned Jesus over to Pilate. The authors made it look like Pilate was reluctant and that the blame was squarely on the Jews.

 

Which makes zero sense in historical context.

 

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but, what's a Gentile? ._.

 

A non-Jew. That's all.

 

As for the stories of who killed Jesus, what I was taught is that Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a hero's welcome right before the highest holy days, then proceeded to raise a ruckus in the temple with throwing out the moneychangers and such. The temple leaders were obviously not happy about this; some were even concerned that this upstart was going to lead to the downfall of Judaism. They tried to discuss the situation with Him, but He insulted the temple leadership instead of behaving like a good Jew and settling down. It was after all that that they arranged to have him arrested and pushed for his execution.

 

Which, again, from a Jewish perspective, makes no sense. None of that was special, weird, or particularly rebellious for the time, neither did he have a large amount of followers at the time (comparatively) nor did the temple people hold any sway over Herod (who HATED them because they wouldn't let him in the temple)

 

[Awdz]

Which, again, from a Jewish perspective, makes no sense. None of that was special, weird, or particularly rebellious for the time, neither did he have a large amount of followers at the time (comparatively) nor did the temple people hold any sway over Herod (who HATED them because they wouldn't let him in the temple)

It did not have to be special, weird, or particularly rebellious, just enough to piss off people who knew how to manipulate the political system. As for number of followers, it seemed to be growing so Jesus was easily viewed as a threat. And they did not need to hold sway over Herod - to him, it was temple guys going at each other, the one before him refused to cooperate with his requests, so he sent Jesus back to Pilate for him to deal with.

 

Knowing a little of how politicians today operate, to me, Jesus's trial and conviction were understandable dirty politics, and some of the Jewish leadership were involved. A much greater number of Jews would never have supported such a thing.

[NobleOwl]

It did not have to be special, weird, or particularly rebellious, just enough to piss off people who knew how to manipulate the political system. As for number of followers, it seemed to be growing so Jesus was easily viewed as a threat. And they did not need to hold sway over Herod - to him, it was temple guys going at each other, the one before him refused to cooperate with his requests, so he sent Jesus back to Pilate for him to deal with.

 

Knowing a little of how politicians today operate, to me, Jesus's trial and conviction were understandable dirty politics, and some of the Jewish leadership were involved. A much greater number of Jews would never have supported such a thing.

What I'm trying to convey is that, in my opinion, none of it makes sense. Yes, I get that political intrigue happens, and I understand the idea that Jesus angered politicos, but so many variables make it play out like a Law and Order episode written by a five year old.

 

1. Pilate being so merciful as to wash his hands of it -- this makes no historic sense. Pilate, historically hated his wife and was pulled several times in front of elders because of her abuse. Further, he was not known for mercy. Ever. Several historians refer to him as merciless.

 

2. Caiaphis was regarded by what historians we have, as a complete political idiot in a lot of ways. He was set in Orthodoxy to an extreme degree, so his turning Jesus over to the Romans when they legally could have stoned him makes no sense, as that right was recently returned to the Sanhedrin. Also, having a Sanhedrin trial at night, especially one with Caiaphis, would have been impossible. Caiaphis struck a messenger once for suggesting that they go over the Talmudic stop time by HALF AN HOUR.

 

The story, as much as it might read as a political thriller from the outset, when you look deeper -- doesn't read right. At least not to me.

[Ashes The Second]

Atheism. I state I am one and no one has tried to convert me.

 

Yet, lol. edit; I have /nothing/ against christians. No, really. I simply don't believe in it because I would prefer solid proof of a being that 'rules over us all and on God we trust'. I don't say the pledge because I don't believe in this. ;_;

Edited July 21, 2012 by Ashes The Second

[Kelkelen]

She said it was because the Jews killed Jesus.

But I always thought it was the Romans that killed Jesus. My mom who just converted said that too, but my other mom said it was the Jews.

 

...So who was it?!

Long answer short: mostly Romans. The Jews were under Roman occupation, but the Romans were permitting the Jews to keep some autonomy, provided they didn't start anything. Jewish leaders seem to have been reluctant to act against Jesus, possibly because he had some popular backing and they didn't want their own people angry with them. So, he was flip-flopped from Roman to Jewish to Roman authority, and executed after Roman law by Roman methods. Some Jews probably supported his execution. Others, probably the majority, did not. Most Jews outside of Jerusalem had no idea that Jesus' trial was even happening, at the time.

 

The Pontius Pilate story is never meant to portray Pilate as a *good* guy -- more as a jerk who was attempting to evade personal guilt for his role in the execution. It was always taught to me (in Catholic school) as a lesson that you have to take responsibility for your actions and your sins, and not blame others for the wrong you do, even if it's something that other people wanted you to do. But whether or not that aspect of it really happened, the bottom line is that it isn't as if the Jewish people as a whole supported a Roman execution of a Jew! The very phrase "Jews killed Jesus" smacks of anti-Semitism. Jesus was also a Jew, in terms of both race and the faith in which he was raised, though of course he openly challenged many tenets of Judaism. So were Mary, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, Veronica, most of the apostles... In my experience, people who say "Jews killed Jesus" are some of the same people who refuse to acknowledge that he himself and most of his followers and early believers were Jews.

[St. Jimmy]

I need help with something... my parents and I are constantly arguing on whether the Old Testament laws still apply to Christians. They claim there was a passage in the bible where Jesus said they did still apply, and since I'm not very familiar with the bible I can't really argue against that. Does anyone know for sure?

[potterwolf]

I need help with something... my parents and I are constantly arguing on whether the Old Testament laws still apply to Christians. They claim there was a passage in the bible where Jesus said they did still apply, and since I'm not very familiar with the bible I can't really argue against that. Does anyone know for sure?

They might be referring to Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

 

But I think it's heavily debated, even within Christianity. There may be no clear answer. I'm not sure.

[Princess Artemis]

I need help with something... my parents and I are constantly arguing on whether the Old Testament laws still apply to Christians. They claim there was a passage in the bible where Jesus said they did still apply, and since I'm not very familiar with the bible I can't really argue against that. Does anyone know for sure?

There are passages in the New Testament that make it clear that, at the least, Gentiles were not expected to hold to the dietary restrictions Jews were and did not need to be circumcised in order to be considered Christians. Given that and some other things (grace being a big one), it's not unexpected that a good many Christians don't believe the covenant law with the Jews is covenant law for Gentile Christians.

 

Potterwolf has quoted the one they are likely talking about.

 

Curious though; why are you arguing with your parents about what the Bible says if you aren't familiar enough with it to know yourself? If it's something you feel strongly enough about to argue constantly with them over, it might be worth finding out for yourself.

[St. Jimmy]

Curious though; why are you arguing with your parents about what the Bible says if you aren't familiar enough with it to know yourself? If it's something you feel strongly enough about to argue constantly with them over, it might be worth finding out for yourself.

It's complicated. We'll always be debating about some kind of social issue, and they are the ones who bring religion into it. There are some parts of Christianity I'm pretty educated about, being raised a Christian myself. But there's still a lot I need to learn.

[NobleOwl]

Christian vs. Jewish Fun Fact of the Day, #1

 

Christianity, in most forms, has original sin -- it was created in the 2nd century by St. Irenaeus.

 

Judaism has no concept of original sin. Sin cannot be passed on to children or borne by anyone but the sinner. The word "sin" does not appear in the story of Eden, or the expulsion from Eden at all.

 

 

[potterwolf]

Christian vs. Jewish Fun Fact of the Day, #1

 

Christianity, in most forms, has original sin -- it was created in the 2nd century by St. Irenaeus.

 

Judaism has no concept of original sin. Sin cannot be passed on to children or borne by anyone but the sinner. The word "sin" does not appear in the story of Eden, or the expulsion from Eden at all.

+1 for Judaism.

[Sadako]

Oo, religion thread. I heard a joke once: 'I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't know either.' Even though that's a joke, it perfectly describes my stance on spirituality.

 

For me, it's not that I don't know if there is a god, it's that whatever is going on in the higher plane is unknowable and is none of our business, at least for now. It almost seems arrogant to presume to know god, and maybe it's arrogant of me to say that, so I tend not to speak up about religion... (My family have always been terribly disappointed in me because they don't listen and they all think I'm a religion-hating atheist (or, when I'm wearing black, a satan-worshipper) and that has always made me sad... :/ Thing is, they're not even very religious themselves, they just seem to like to have a reason to think of me as the black sheep.)

 

Agnosticism doesn't get a lot of press. I'm curious what people think about it, and what religions/religious people have to say about it.

[Syaoransbear]

Christian vs. Jewish Fun Fact of the Day, #1

 

Christianity, in most forms, has original sin -- it was created in the 2nd century by St. Irenaeus.

 

Judaism has no concept of original sin. Sin cannot be passed on to children or borne by anyone but the sinner. The word "sin" does not appear in the story of Eden, or the expulsion from Eden at all.

I'm an Athiest but Judaism makes a helluva lot more sense to me than Christianity. I wonder if my university offers a course about it, because I find it very interesting.

[KageSora]

Agnosticism doesn't get a lot of press. I'm curious what people think about it, and what religions/religious people have to say about it.

I think I classify as agnostic, from what I've read on the subject. Agnostic theist, particularly. Formerly a Roman Catholic.

 

 

To me, I do believe that there is some form of a higher power (I've had things in my life that I can't really explain away without it, good luck and coincidence are just not enough), but I feel that we can't know the true nature of that higher being, or those higher beings.

 

I think whatever it is/they are are more hands-off, but do intervene in lives from time to time for reasons we won't be able to fathom in this life--maybe it's just for kicks (some pretty sick kicks in some cases), maybe it's that they handle karmic rewards/punishments and they themselves take orders from a still higher power, maybe we're the playing pieces in some sort of game.

 

 

I like to hope that whatever is out there is benevolent, hands-off at best, and not malicious and/or cruel, but I don't think it's possible for us as mortals to comprehend the nature of what we would refer to as the divine.

[NobleOwl]

I'm an Athiest but Judaism makes a helluva lot more sense to me than Christianity. I wonder if my university offers a course about it, because I find it very interesting.

Well, this is why I thought I'd do fun facts, if people are interested! To help people know more when they don't have sources or classes in it.

 

Agnosticism doesn't get a lot of press. I'm curious what people think about it, and what religions/religious people have to say about it.

 

Judaism: That's nice! Have some soup.

[ShinyTomato]

Judaism: That's nice! Have some soup.

 

And she means that honestly! Actually happened the first time she dragged me to shul because there was a pot-luck kind of thing going on. Rabbi asked if I was Jewish, I said I was agnostic, and he said "That's nice! Have some soup."

[St. Jimmy]

And she means that honestly! Actually happened the first time she dragged me to shul because there was a pot-luck kind of thing going on. Rabbi asked if I was Jewish, I said I was agnostic, and he said "That's nice! Have some soup."

I wish the people at my parents' church could be that nice... I had a similar conversation with a woman there, and when I said I wasn't a Christian she gave me the nastiest look.

 

I think that's why the parents never dragged me back... they weren't too happy about that. Well, what was I supposed to do? Lie?

[NobleOwl]

I wish the people at my parents' church could be that nice... I had a similar conversation with a woman there, and when I said I wasn't a Christian she gave me the nastiest look.

 

I think that's why the parents never dragged me back... they weren't too happy about that. Well, what was I supposed to do? Lie?

Because there's nothing to be "saved" from in Judaism, that kind of hostility is rarer. It can still occur, depending on the shul, and what they've been through -- but there's never any push for someone to be Jewish.

[hazeh]

And she means that honestly! Actually happened the first time she dragged me to shul because there was a pot-luck kind of thing going on. Rabbi asked if I was Jewish, I said I was agnostic, and he said "That's nice! Have some soup."

My mom had a similar experience. At first she was taking Judaism classes and everyone there was very supportive that she classified herself as agnostic. My other atheist mother even attended a service once and they were all very kind.

 

Now my mom completed her conversion a few weeks ago, and we got to be present for the mikvah. It was super cool, I like the singing

[Alpha1]

but there's never any push for someone to be Jewish.

 

What are the most convincing arguments atheists have?

[pudding]

Others can feel free to add to my list but here are a few that I commonly use:

 

1) The Bible is not a reliable source as it was written by many authors thousands of years ago who were recording oral history/tradition. I assume all of us have played Whisper Down the Lane when we were children so it is easy to know what happens to oral history over time. As soon as you take out the Bible, it is hard for religious arguments to stand.

 

2) Religion changes. We went from multiple gods to one God. If God did exist, why did he not inform the Romans instead of letting them go on with their whole 'multiple gods' bit? And the Greeks? Oh, and we mustn't forget about the early humans who were just figuring out how to hunt wooly mammoths.

 

3) Science! Many atheists like to believe in the guys with lab coats and petri dishes that can prove what they are doing is true using evidence we can see, feel, hear, touch or taste. Since God cannot be seen, felt, heard, touched or tasted, many atheists feel they need something more than a book to prove he exists.