Sexism

[MasterWeavile898]

That's one of the things that really gets me. Sorry, women and men are just naturally different, can't be helped. Trying to avoid that fact is pointless. Just because neither is better than the other doesn't mean they are exactly the same. And to some extent, men are more suited to certain tasks than women and vice versa

 

Though more suited doesn't mean impossible, women can be plenty strong, it's just harder for them than for men (And guys aren't naturally strong either. I know that all too well )

[King_Max_Cat]

ask any fitness trainer around the world, and they'll answer you one thing: women have it harder to gain muscle, and to maintain them. And thats entirely based on estrogen. Women can have lower to abnormally low estrogen levels without ever noticing (well, unless they want to have kids, then the low estrogen will be found out...) and men can have higher levels than is healthy. But that's not the norm.

 

Ignoring biological differences just because they are inconvenient, is not a good idea.

OK, yes women have a harder time gaining muscle but what does that have to do with the original comment? He said:

"Can I be honest with you? I don't want to say it's because you're a woman, but I don't think this is the kind of job for you because of all the heavy lifting. I don't want to see you get hurt."

 

He DIDN'T even mention her muscles or physique. He just mentioned that she was a woman, and furthermore that "I don't think this is the kind of job for you". Just exactly who is this guy to go telling her just what is and isn't a good "kind of job" for her?? It's none of his business! And she's never complained about the weight; other guys have even said her boxes are too heavy. So why would he even bring up this issue.....?

....Because she's a woman. Sexism. She's a woman so she MUST be weak and likely to hurt herself, EVEN if she has never indicated as such.

[pudding]

There are differences between men and women. But not to the degree that it should influence any possible job. A cross section of muscle is the same regardless of gender. In other words, muscle is gender neutral. Women can be just as 'ripped' as men but our society doesn't encourage that.

 

Take, for example, my brother and I. We are only a year appart and he is over fifty pounds heavier than I am, as well as 3 or so inches taller. But, by no means, is he stronger than I am. His short bursts of energy allow him to run faster than I can but I can run for longer. When given a weight of the same size, I can usually hold it for longer (In fact, I can hold things that are heavier than I am, usually people.). So which one of us is stronger? We have our differences and while his is short bursts of energy, mine is endurance.

 

And, for the record, I attend a boot camp designed specifically for women because men can't keep up. I took my dad there once and he not only ended up throwing up but he also passed out when we were doing the same activities. In fact, every man that has ever attended the women's bootcamp has thrown up and can't keep up with the newbie girls.

[whitebaron]

@king_max_cat: i strongly advise you to not try to psychologically dissect his statement. you dont know this guy, so who are you/we to say the only reason can be sexism? he's obviously more experienced, so the proper action would have been to ask: "WHY". not to go away. Either he has reasons, or he is sexist, but none of us will know unless syaoran asks him.

 

thats a pretty reoccuring theme i see in judgement of men and their sexist behaviour - instead of asking what they meant or what their reasons are, they are just sexists without further ado. it might have even been a try to get it across without looking sexist - god knows, warehouse workers are not the top of the crop when it comes to eloquence and education, or else they'd not work there.

 

--

@pudding: yes women go harder. they usually are tougher. and they lose muscle easier and gain them harder. your brother and you, though, is just an anecdote, not data. does he train the same way you do, the same thing you do, as much as you do?

 

No? Thought so.

[pudding]

Same bootcamp, actually. He doesn't play sports because he did when he was younger and nearly died from a spinal injury and brain injury. Football is TERRIBLE.

 

Don't assume things. I don't see any scientific studies from your end. Just a lot of assumptions and some 'facts'. Where is your evidence women go harder? It's subjective. To quote you:

you dont know this guy

 

And, btw, warehouse worker is a steppingstone in a lot of businesses. You start out on the bottom then get promoted. And even college graduates can end up being waiters. They're stepping stones

 

 

 

 

[whitebaron]

And, btw, warehouse worker is a steppingstone in a lot of businesses. You start out on the bottom then get promoted. And even college graduates can end up being waiters. They're stepping stones

more like a dead end, honestly. it's not like the american dream still works that way.

 

as for woman going harder into workouts: go and ask any crossfit instructor, or your instructors at bootcamp.

[pudding]

more like a dead end, honestly. it's not like the american dream still works that way.

 

as for woman going harder into workouts: go and ask any crossfit instructor, or your instructors at bootcamp.

Again, it's subjective. You said men are stronger, did you not? So shouldn't they go harder? It's not evidence if it's something that can't really be proven in the first place. It's an opinion-based question that can't be answered by a scientific study.

 

And it is how it works. All of the managers at my parent's business started out as warehouse workers. Work hard, you get promoted. Don't work hard and you loiter. So it does.

[Syaoransbear]

First off: There are Physical differences between Males and Females. That's a fact only very stubborn equalists will try to negate. So most women will not be able to work in that line of work, which does not mean that its impossible or even a bad idea - if you have the muscles and build for it, go for it.

 

Secondly: Because women are far and between in quite some jobs, they are under constant pressure. They tend to overreact and overwork, to try to prove their worth more than is necessary. That in itself can be seen by many as bad judgement in the field / bad working. - Why you ask? Lifting more than men might be good for the ego, but it might also be that its just too much. We're talking about "career"-heavy lifters, you are just a newbie. It might be that they see your eagerness to carry much as stupidity and short-sightedness, no matter what sex you are.

 

And probably, because you are a woman, they would not want to tell you in the same way they'd tell a man.

I really wouldn't describe my job as a heavy lifting job. I believe if I can do it, any woman would be able to work this particular job. I just fill and ship small pipe orders. If something is heavy it's because I made it that way(and I'm going to get yelled at by someone for making it heavy anyway).

 

Since october, I have done absolutely nothing but lay in bed and watch anime. Seriously. I pretty much had no muscle. But I had no trouble jumping into this job full time and I haven't even had muscle soreness. It's so easy. That's where most of my confusion came from. I didn't understand what he even meant by heavy lifting. I've been there for 3 weeks and the most I've had to lift was 70 pounds and that was my own doing since I made the order but was too lazy to separate the order into two boxes. But I didn't struggle with that or anything.

 

And I really don't think it's because he thinks I'm going to push myself because I'm a woman and end up hurting myself. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he's an older gentleman from an asian country and he might be used to much smaller woman and probably much smaller and older women since he's married. I mean, I'm like 4 inches taller than him. I'm pretty sure I could carry him around. Actually, now that I think of it the warehouse is full of short guys. I'm the third tallest person there and I'm only 5'7.

 

Also, I would not describe myself as a newbie. I was manager of a warehouse at one point, so, :/.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Red Dragonette]

more like a dead end, honestly. it's not like the american dream still works that way.

 

as for woman going harder into workouts: go and ask any crossfit instructor, or your instructors at bootcamp.

And how many crossfit instructors and bootcamp instructors have you asked? And also, where do you get your information on gender strength from?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Red Dragonette

[whitebaron]

Also, I would not describe myself as a newbie. I was manager of a warehouse at one point, so, :/.

I could not know all that from your descriptions, though, could I?

 

Also, 70lb is borderline. Its definitely not "light" load. Ikea makes it a point to have no parcels over roughly that weight for good reason.

 

Still: go ahead, and ask him what he meant. Call him out if its stupid bull****. Deal with it if its proper critique. Going to an internet forum might help ease frustrations, but it cant substitute for a talk with your colleague. If you dont do it, it will nag at you for the whole time you're there.

[pudding]

I could not know all that from your descriptions, though, could I?

 

Also, 70lb is borderline. Its definitely not "light" load. Ikea makes it a point to have no parcels over roughly that weight for good reason.

 

Still: go ahead, and ask him what he meant. Call him out if its stupid bull****. Deal with it if its proper critique. Going to an internet forum might help ease frustrations, but it cant substitute for a talk with your colleague. If you dont do it, it will nag at you for the whole time you're there.

So let me get this straight;

You're making assumptions about other people. But at the same time, you're telling us not to make assumptions about this man? I mean, most of what you've been saying are assumptions and yet we call a guy out on sexism and you say nay? Bit of a hypocrite, aren't you?

 

FYI, 70lb is nothing. Especially if you are already working in a warehouse. IKEA does that because regular people are picking up their stuff and they tend to be not as physically fit as people that work in warehouses. If your entire job is lugging stuff around, you've got 70 pounds. 70 is nothing.

[Red Dragonette]

And how many crossfit instructors and bootcamp instructors have you asked? And also, where do you get your information on gender strength from?

Let me repost my quote, in case whitebaron missed it.

[Syaoransbear]

I could not know all that from your descriptions, though, could I?

 

Also, 70lb is borderline. Its definitely not "light" load. Ikea makes it a point to have no parcels over roughly that weight for good reason.

 

Still: go ahead, and ask him what he meant. Call him out if its stupid bull****. Deal with it if its proper critique. Going to an internet forum might help ease frustrations, but it cant substitute for a talk with your colleague. If you dont do it, it will nag at you for the whole time you're there.

No, you couldn't have, which is why you could have asked instead of assuming.

 

I would agree 70 pounds isn't light, I'd consider 70 pounds to be probably medium, but it's not heavy. I think 100+ is heavy and you are required to team lift stuff like that because they are pretty serious about safety. I actually took this job because I wanted to get in shape for joining the police and the physical requirements for that require truly heavy lifting. My cousin, female, is becoming an EMT and she has to be able to lift and carry 150 pounds and I don't think anyone has expressed concern over her gender.

 

I also agree that men are physically stronger than women on average and gain muscle much easier, but I think for a job like this the difference hormones makes is pretty negligible. It's just not very hard.

 

I might ask him about it later, but right now I'm uncomfortable bringing it up since I'm so new. But I do think he was being sexist. The only reason he brought up me being unsuitable for the job was my gender, even though he said he didn't want to say it. Since I haven't had trouble lifting anything his opinion wasn't based on my physical ability, and I think if he thought I was going to injure myself because women tend to try too hard in order to prove themselves, well, that is sexism since it's based on me being a woman and not based on my personality.

 

If I'm not struggling with the weight and I'm taller/possibly weigh more than him, what reasons do you think he has for saying I'm unsuitable for the job? Just curious as I would like opinions.

 

But this guy is an absolute sweetheart and I know he was sincerely worried about me injuring myself. None the less, I do believe his concern was based on me being a woman and not based on me as an individual.

 

Anyways, I was really hurt by his comment because I really look up to him and I was kind of on cloud nine because I surprisingly really like this job(and I get paid a whole lot lol), so it was quite the killjoy. My boss thinks I'm doing an awesome job so whatevs.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Shienvien]

Also, 70lb is borderline. Its definitely not "light" load. Ikea makes it a point to have no parcels over roughly that weight for good reason.

"Light" is very subjective. I personally would still call it light - I have never had any problems with carrying ~90 (properly packed, though) while trekking twenty miles over terrain in pretty much one go. Single lifting I can do much more than that, obviously.

 

Also, a *lot* of trainers are rather sexist themselves, so I wouldn't really count their opinions valid. A friend convinced me to briefly try some long time ago, and honestly, that attitude...

 

 

"Women this," "men that"... Couldn't people just ... ask?

[whitebaron]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, before people quote their stuff again uselessly: If I ignored it, I ignored it, not I did not read it. Its funny how the one affected by my statement is the only one who does not seem to bother and answers me, and everyone else is outraged. That's a typically sample of what I'd call the "we are the victim" - syndrome. You're not helping Syaoran in any way.

 

@Syaoran: Well, asking would have been probably the same way - assuming something, just with a question mark behind it. My points, however, still stay the same: Call him out on it. Its the best way. Sooner rather than later. Also, it might be because you are new, and he has not begun to understand that you are as qualified as him. Might be sexist, might be not. He might be the overly protective fatherly type who has own kids to look after and sees you as such. After all, you're pretty young according to your profile.

 

About emt - dont know the term, thinking its something like a nurse/paramedic maybe? They are sometimes required to lift even very heavy people, thats true, but its not the usual load all day. Its kinda a three times a day occurence, which puts it in a totally different light, see also below.

 

 

@Shienvien:

First of all, a backpack is an entirely different beast than packages, which are usually not as handy, and secondly not on your back, which helps a lot in lifting even more. I CAN lift 300 lbs on my back and walk around some with it, but hey, dont ask me to do that more than twice a day.

 

Secondly, working in a warehouse, you lift things all day, all week, all month. Conserving strength is a good way to go, and its not just pure muscle that's involved. Joints are an issue, too, as is your back and maybe even your sinews.

Its why for example at ikea, anything above 100 lbs is required to be carried together or on forklift, just like in syaorans warehouse.

 

Example of our military: Heaviest type of backpack you pack is around 90 lbs. That includes your weapons, tools and provisions, not just armor and clothing. Anything more would just not be viable to carry longterm, and even that is rather unusual.

 

For long-distance walks, like the way to St.James, it is btw. recommended to try and put only 10% of your weight on your back. Attrition is an important factor when talking about weights, and if you carry it every day, doubly so. I know its often not feasible, as you can not pack so few things, but well - its a guideline, everyone is free to pack more. Especially in very light-weight or small people, strength to weight is not a very good factor anyway.

[Shienvien]

Yeah, and I will carry the 90lbs the next day, and every day after that during the week, two or more, too. Depending on what exactly my share is, the amount (by food etc.) may go down somewhat, but in the end I'll still have carried your "not light load by any means" the entire way (which is in reality longer rather than sorter due to detours, rising or falling terrain, etc.).

 

I've also done forestwork and such, which happens to deal with not so conveniently packed stuff, but here I have harder time giving any estimations since I don't have a good idea how much a log or a tree trunk might weight. Weight perception I don't have - I have guessed 10kg weight is 2kg before.

 

 

Also, your military has surprisingly light loads compared that my friends (who had been) in the army have said...

[MedievalMystic]

"Can I be honest with you? I don't want to say it's because you're a woman, but I don't think this is the kind of job for you because of all the heavy lifting. I don't want to see you get hurt."

 

My response? "Aw, that's sweet! Thanks so much, but I think I've got it. If I ever need any help I'll let you know." The end. No offense taken.

 

 

[Alpha1]

If I'm not struggling with the weight and I'm taller/possibly weigh more than him, what reasons do you think he has for saying I'm unsuitable for the job? Just curious as I would like opinions.

 

It sounds like he didn't want you to get hurt, not that you were performing badly. But yeah, he's only saying it because you're a female. It's good that he doesn't seem antagonistic, and your boss thinks you're doing awesome.

[pudding]

-snip-

It seems to be that Red Dragonette was not outraged and you are simply avoiding a very good question. Where DO you get your information about gender strenght?

 

 

Also, I think the 90lbs is the minimum weight (Or nearly so). Soliders often have to carry more equipment than their own weapons and ammo and it often stretches to over a 100lb. I mean, walking very quickly over long terrain with a 45lb backpack is the initial training.

[KageSora]

About emt - dont know the term, thinking its something like a nurse/paramedic maybe? They are sometimes required to lift even very heavy people, thats true, but its not the usual load all day. Its kinda a three times a day occurence, which puts it in a totally different light, see also below.

EMT is Emergency Medical Technician, often employed in ambulances (but not limited to them). Not sure exactly how often they have to lift very heavy patients, but if they have to get somebody up off the floor who's collapsed, I'd say it probably happens more than 3 times a day.

[Red Dragonette]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, before people quote their stuff again uselessly: If I ignored it, I ignored it, not I did not read it. Its funny how the one affected by my statement is the only one who does not seem to bother and answers me, and everyone else is outraged. That's a typically sample of what I'd call the "we are the victim" - syndrome. You're not helping Syaoran in any way.

I'm going to assume that you got your "facts" from your assumptions and didn't do research.

 

These educational links proves that women can be just as strong as men:

http://www.stumptuous.com/ebben.html

http://www.themarysue.com/gender-dichotomy-study/

[MedievalMystic]

EMT is Emergency Medical Technician, often employed in ambulances (but not limited to them). Not sure exactly how often they have to lift very heavy patients, but if they have to get somebody up off the floor who's collapsed, I'd say it probably happens more than 3 times a day.

 

My mom recently passed away, December 20th. Before that, there were many calls to 911. Several EMT's always came at once, men and women. When it came time to lift my mom onto the stretcher...she was no light weight...it was always the men doing the lifting. Always. Not saying a chick couldn't...hell, I had to wrestle my mom up off the floor, help her stand, bathe her, change her, dress her, etc, and she weighed about 170lbs...but now that I think about it, the chicks never helped lift her, only the guys did. I didn't think anything of it. The chicks were talking to me and putting stuff on the computers. *shrug*

[TikindiDragon]

These educational links proves that women can be just as strong as men:

http://www.stumptuous.com/ebben.html

http://www.themarysue.com/gender-dichotomy-study/

Uh, did you actually read those through? The first one actually states:

Women possess about 40% to 60% of the upper-body strength and 70% to 75% of the lower-body strength of men.

It further notes that in terms of absolute strength that, yes, men would be stronger than the women using the same work out. Broadly due to physiological differences such as greater height, but also due to hormone levels which are known to influence muscles development.

 

Which is kind of the opposite of the point you were attempting to make.

 

The second study is actually looking at psychology, not physiology. It, also, makes no bones about the fact that there are physical differences between the sex. Beyond that it only looks at the mental and societal aspects, and not the physical ones.

 

In short - neither of those studies 'prove' that women can be just as strong as men.

 

Look, guys, it's not sexist to point out basic biological differences. It *is* sexist to pre-judge individual people based on stereotypes (for example, there are weak men, and women body builders. We know this.), but it is not sexist to point out that men have an easier time building muscle mass due to their biology. Nor is it particularly helpful to the discussion to try and erase that biology. Work past it, don't deny that it exists

 

As to the effect of hormones - I know several of you are of the opinion that the evidence is anecdotal, but if you care to look for yourselves you will find that almost every single trans discussion forum contains at least one thread talking about the girls being physically weaker after they had been on HRT for a while (or, form the other point of view, the guys observing how great it is that they're much stronger now). And, really, if anyone is in a position to offer anecdotes observing what happens on both sides of the 'hormone' divide it's the people that have been there.

[Red Dragonette]

No, I didn't read it fully, because my mind and eyes were tired, so I went and skipped some parts to ; sorry my bad. But still we can't let these biological differences get us down, no matter what the truth says. So Syaoran, by all means keep working on your job.

 

Oh and btw, has anybody talked about sexism against men, because I found an interesting article: http://www.safercampus.org/blog/2011/03/es...lture-hurt-men/

Edited February 14, 2014 by Red Dragonette

[Obscure_Trash]

Uh, saying that Sock hormones *do* make a difference. I know several trans women that say they actively cannot lift as much now as they were able to before they started taking Estrogen.

 

That's not to say that girls/women shouldn't be encouraged to push it and try their best. They should. It's just that, well, there *are* physical differences.

Besides the point Shienvien made about artificial hormones, I just want to add:

I'm not saying there aren't biological differences between people, of course; however, I don't think it's as gender-strict as people, specifically sexist people trying to make women weaker, make it out to be. It is also based on a really binarist system, so if we take into account what people's genders actually are, it kinds destroys the whole system just based on that. Not to mention that not all cis women are XX and all cis men XY - they can be XXXX, XXYY, XXY, etc. and would never know if they don't present the obvious/detrimental symptoms of these chromosome arrangements and never get genetically tested. And, hey, that could affect people, too.

If some chromosomal difference makes you taller, you might be pushed into different sports than I, a shortie, might be, and our capabilities will develop based on the things we're doing, too.

 

My ex- showed me an article (like most science, just talking about cis women and cis men) once that talked about women actually have more muscle per pound in their legs than men. I think perhaps sometimes people get too caught up in lifting x amount of weight rather than x% of weight based on your body type/height/etc. and that makes a difference in how we perceive physical differences as well.

 

People have unique body types, different diets, different exercise regimes, different chemical makeup, etc. and that's all going to affect what one can do, yes, but none of this changes my original point that because we perceive women as weaker, we stunt their growth and make them weaker. Even accounting for biological differences, taking a binarist stance on it, what we physically do to women means that their capabilities aren't so different, biologically, as we make them out to be.