Sexism

[Ribombee]

Is anyone else following the both anger-inducing (at the reason it has to exist) and hilarious #distractinglysexy that's trending on Twitter? This is a perfect example of sexism and how it affects people in the real world, not just online. As a woman in science, I join my fellow female scientists in my outrage that someone would say these things. I think the hashtag is both poignant and positively hilarious! It's raised a TON of awareness for the fact that women in science are still so often treated terribly in comparison to our male colleagues. Lower pay, discrimination, harsher reviews of work (to include comments from reviewers such as 'this paper would be better if you had a male co-authour'), and the like plague the scientific community. Yet women have and still do make extremely incredible discoveries. For example, the first PERSON to win TWO Nobel Prizes was Marie Curie, and she is one of only two people to have ever won two in different fields.

Edited June 13, 2015 by harlequinraven

[Sundew]

Two things came up recently in real life, and I'm curious about people's opinions on here.

 

Do you consider it sexist that it's a matter of honor for many men not to hit women?

 

Well, I think it is, and it angers me every time someone says it. Going out of your way to avoid assaulting someone--be they male or female--does not mean one is honorable. That's the law. That's a commonly accepted basic fact of morality. It no more morally acceptable to hit a man than it is a woman.

I have met girls who think that physical fighting within one's own sex is acceptable, but as soon as it becomes co-ed, the man is suddenly breaking Ties of Honor. Honestly? that.

The only counterargument I've heard is that the average man is stronger than the average woman, which--while on average true--does not make a difference to me. I don't care. Men, as much as women, have the right to avoid physical confrontation if they should choose. If you consider violence to be dishonorable, consider it equally dishonorable when looking at all humans. Don't bring sex into the equation.

 

The second thing is sexist. I don't think it can really be argued. A friend told me that he expected women to shave, and that men were weird or gay if they shaved.

Now it is a stereotype that men who shave are often homosexual, and because this friend has had his sexuality questioned many times in the past, so I can understand why he would want to avoid shaving. Similarly, there's the stereotype that short-haired girls = lesbians, and thanks to my haircut I've been taken for that on more than one occasion. I don't care, but I know many don't feel the same, so to each his own.

But to feel that women are obligated to shave and that men are freaks for doing so? No.

All people should have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their bodies. Biased prerequisites should stop playing a part in those decisions.

 

Sorry if I got a little heated there. I feel very strongly on the subject.

[Shienvien]

It no more morally acceptable to hit a man than it is a woman.

This. It is not morally acceptable to properly hit another human being outside of combat or martial arts training or competition (and those are controlled hits) or self- or other active defence.

 

(And this includes slapping - it is hitting a person in the face. Period.)

[Yandere_Blood18]

I don't think that anyone should be discriminated by their gender, race.....whatever.

 

But I guess that most can't help it as it's how they're brought up, and I feel bad for those that continue to bash others for asinine reasons like gender or whatever. But I don't feel too bad, I still hate 'em too!

[Ribombee]

I don't think that anyone should be discriminated by their gender, race.....whatever.

 

But I guess that most can't help it as it's how they're brought up, and I feel bad for those that continue to bash others for asinine reasons like gender or whatever. But I don't feel too bad, I still hate 'em too!

Being brought up a certain way isn't really an excuse unless they've been living in relative isolation. I understand people struggling with being politically correct but trying. There's a difference between trying and just being an outright jerk when you know better (or SHOULD know better).

[dragongrrl]

Being brought up a certain way isn't really an excuse unless they've been living in relative isolation. I understand people struggling with being politically correct but trying. There's a difference between trying and just being an outright jerk when you know better (or SHOULD know better).

Many years ago, I worked for a time with a marvelous lady, a brilliant and very kind, very thoughtful woman who was well into her nineties, and dealing with the beginnings of dementia. She had been raised in the south, not intentionally racist, but with some of the general attitudes of the time and place. As she grew up, she shed any racist tones in her speech and thoughts, and was a wonderful mentor for people of all ethnicities and backgrounds .

 

However, as her dementia increased, it was unsettling to see some of those old attitudes, (just girl or boy, nothing extreme, nothing intended to be hateful) return in her speech. I could excuse it in her, because I understood were it came from, and I knew her intentions were not racist, but it was unsettling to see, just the same.

[JavaTigress]

Many years ago, I worked for a time with a marvelous lady, a brilliant and very kind, very thoughtful woman who was well into her nineties, and dealing with the beginnings of dementia. She had been raised in the south, not intentionally racist, but with some of the general attitudes of the time and place. As she grew up, she shed any racist tones in her speech and thoughts, and was a wonderful mentor for people of all ethnicities and backgrounds .

 

However, as her dementia increased, it was unsettling to see some of those old attitudes, (just girl or boy, nothing extreme, nothing intended to be hateful) return in her speech. I could excuse it in her, because I understood were it came from, and I knew her intentions were not racist, but it was unsettling to see, just the same.

It occurs to me that dragongrrl brings up an interesting point here.

 

That is... yes a person SHOULD learn better despite their upbringing, but it isn't always that simple.

 

The lady in the scenario had 'learned better, but due to the dementia, she forgot.

 

That being said, it also strikes me that shifting an attitude that you were brought up with can, sometimes, be very difficult. That isn't to say it is impossible, or that one shouldn't try, but an attitude learned young might be very difficult to change later on in life.( Again... NOT saying that is an excuse, BUT if a person is AWARE that their attitude is problematic and they are making an effort to change but are struggling...)

[KingSpinosaurus]

I'm against it.Either gender can do what the other does.

[AnanoKimi]

It occurs to me that dragongrrl brings up an interesting point here.

 

That is... yes a person SHOULD learn better despite their upbringing, but it isn't always that simple.

 

The lady in the scenario had 'learned better, but due to the dementia, she forgot.

 

That being said, it also strikes me that shifting an attitude that you were brought up with can, sometimes, be very difficult. That isn't to say it is impossible, or that one shouldn't try, but an attitude learned young might be very difficult to change later on in life.( Again... NOT saying that is an excuse, BUT if a person is AWARE that their attitude is problematic and they are making an effort to change but are struggling...)

Thats where the difference etween wanting to change and not comes in. As they say, there isno worst blind man than the one who refuses to see.

 

There are many, like that wonderful woman, who realize the error of that upbringing and change their mind set and as you said 'learn better.' Those are the people who make obvious attempts at not being prejudice in any way. Then there's those who constantly see the error of their upbringing and continue to refute the facts or the common sense and stick to what they know out of sheer stubbornness and possibly to some degree cruelty.

 

Those people are obvious. They show no sympathy or empathy towards the groups they are prejudice towards, they will try to play it down as a 'mistake', but these mistakes happen far too often and are far too colorful or unsettling.

[JavaTigress]

Thats where the difference etween wanting to change and not comes in. As they say, there isno worst blind man than the one who refuses to see.

 

There are many, like that wonderful woman, who realize the error of that upbringing and change their mind set and as you said 'learn better.' Those are the people who make obvious attempts at not being prejudice in any way. Then there's those who constantly see the error of their upbringing and continue to refute the facts or the common sense and stick to what they know out of sheer stubbornness and possibly to some degree cruelty.

 

Those people are obvious. They show no sympathy or empathy towards the groups they are prejudice towards, they will try to play it down as a 'mistake', but these mistakes happen far too often and are far too colorful or unsettling.

Yes, that is true. There ARE those that just plain don't CARE who their atttitudes might hurt/offend, and there are those that just don't see it as a problem.

 

I guess you have to be WILLING to learn.

[Sundew]

Rethinking the philosophy you were brought up to believe is terrifying, more so the older you are. If your opinions are wrong, how much else could be? It brings a whole new layer of doubt to your existence.

 

There are better thought processes than others, but often "regular to change" is not stubbornness, but understandable terror.

 

There is a reason people think the way they do. Though persuasion and conversion is often best, it can't be attempted with empathy.

[AnanoKimi]

Rethinking the philosophy you were brought up to believe is terrifying, more so the older you are. If your opinions are wrong, how much else could be? It brings a whole new layer of doubt to your existence.

 

There are better thought processes than others, but often "regular to change" is not stubbornness, but understandable terror.

 

There is a reason people think the way they do. Though persuasion and conversion is often best, it can't be attempted with empathy.

I guess I like having my beliefs challenged because to me being able to change to a perspective which has been logically proven to me to be more sound than my current stance is amazing. Its thrilling to be able to take on a new view and realize things that you couldn't before. The fear of change is a perfectly normal thing but using that as an excuse to anchor your self and never be willing to take on a new view for the sake of self improvement as well as community health is in my opinion not right. We are intellectual creatures that learn every day. Our lives constantly move, change, and our surroundings evolve. As such, we must be able to adapt to this ever changing world and be able to logically think and digest new views and perspectives not just on how it can benefit one's self but how with that perspective one can benefit the community.

 

Those unable to adapt and use their logic to differentiate opinions and perspective which are both good and bad end up getting left behind and stigmatized. Its no different that other animals that refuse to couple or associate with members that have undesirable traits. If an individual cannot be mentally flexible and willing to learn and digest new information then really what is the need for them in an environment that is always changing and binging new truths and perspectives to light?

[Sundew]

I guess I like having my beliefs challenged because to me being able to change to a perspective which has been logically proven to me to be more sound than my current stance is amazing. Its thrilling to be able to take on a new view and realize things that you couldn't before. The fear of change is a perfectly normal thing but using that as an excuse to anchor your self and never be willing to take on a new view for the sake of self improvement as well as community health is in my opinion not right. We are intellectual creatures that learn every day. Our lives constantly move, change, and our surroundings evolve. As such, we must be able to adapt to this ever changing world and be able to logically think and digest new views and perspectives not just on how it can benefit one's self but how with that perspective one can benefit the community.

 

Those unable to adapt and use their logic to differentiate opinions and perspective which are both good and bad end up getting left behind and stigmatized. Its no different that other animals that refuse to couple or associate with members that have undesirable traits. If an individual cannot be mentally flexible and willing to learn and digest new information then really what is the need for them in an environment that is always changing and binging new truths and perspectives to light?

Ah, I didn't mean that fear was an excuse. I just think it's definitely a factor in refusal to change, and should be kept in mind when arguing with someone who has centered their life around a certain belief.

Often, if you directly/aggressively confront someone about their beliefs, they are more likely to cling fiercely to their views than to listen to reason.

 

I also love having my views challenged, though I admit it's more for the enjoyment of convincing others than being convinced myself (though this has happened on more than a few occasions).

 

I'm kind of unsure of what you meant with the example? A lot of the time, animals refuse to associate with others of their kind because they actually possess inferior genes or diseases. o3o

I think I know what you're trying to say with that analogy, but I'm not 100% certain. :3

[AnanoKimi]

Yeah. Its both ways with me. Sometimes you learn something new that cahnges your views, and sometimes you teach someone something about your view that makes something click in their heads.

 

Yeah thats what I meant. I've been having poor sleep and such so sometimes things come out jumbled. Inferior genes though are associated to inferior specimens. There is some undesirable trait or behavior in the unwanted specimen that causes others to not want to breed with them. still tired so sorry if this is even more confusing.

[Syaoransbear]

I've been having hip problems for years, and lately my left one is bad enough that I am having trouble simply walking. My doctor won't do an xray because I'm female and my reproductive organs are in that area. Despite insisting that I DO NOT WANT CHILDREN ever, ever, ever, she insists that I'll change my mind. So I get to walk around with hip problems and no diagnosis. I don't know where I'll be able to find a doctor who won't put my reproductive organs above my ability to walk. How am I supposed to have kids if my hips are already messed up anyway?

[Omega Entity]

Have you tried another doc? If not, you might try that. Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that your reproductive organs should have anything to do with a hip replacement, though maybe they're concerned about compromising the pelvis itself.

 

If you can't get anything done, you might consider getting legal council. they're denying you the care you need, because you have the capacity -with no desire- to reproduce. That they won't even do x-rays to properly diagnose you is an entirely different can of worms. At the very least, you should file a complaint with your state's medical board.

 

[JavaTigress]

I've been having hip problems for years, and lately my left one is bad enough that I am having trouble simply walking. My doctor won't do an xray because I'm female and my reproductive organs are in that area. Despite insisting that I DO NOT WANT CHILDREN ever, ever, ever, she insists that I'll change my mind. So I get to walk around with hip problems and no diagnosis. I don't know where I'll be able to find a doctor who won't put my reproductive organs above my ability to walk. How am I supposed to have kids if my hips are already messed up anyway?

I was going to ask pretty much the same Question Omega Entity did... about finding a different doctor.

 

And @ Omega Entity- I think the idea was that the doc was afraid that the radiation fromt he XRay would harm the organs themselves... While I DO sort of get that the doctor doesn't want to be blamed and sued for it in the event that someone DOES change their mind.... I do see your point about bearing a child being difficult at best if your hips are messed up anyhow.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Silverswift

[Omega Entity]

If she were actually pregnant, then the radiation from the xray might be a concern - except not really. The levels of radiation given off by an xray are ridiculously low, especially since techs are trained to proceed as such as to expose the person to as little radiation as possible. If her child-bearing abilities, not an actual pregnancy, were at risk, then no one with the ability to bear a child would ever be able to get a pelvic xray.

 

I find this quote quite pertinent to the discussion. The info came from here.

 

Properly conducted imaging carries minimal risks and should be performed when clinically indicated. The amount of radiation used in most examinations is very small and the benefits greatly outweigh the risk of harm.

 

So yes, her doctor is failing to produce an acceptable standard of care, by denying her the diagnostics she needs.

 

That doctor's negligence also has the potential of screwing up other parts of her body, from an orthopedic standpoint. For instance, a problem with the hips that's left unaddressed for too long can also cause problems with the ankles, knees, and back, and anything attached due to the body having to compensate for the 'broken' part, often to the detriment of the structures of everything else that aren't designed to function in that manner.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Omega Entity

[KuroYukia]

I'm neutral in this. If someone is sexist towards me I'm going to look at it one of three ways. Offensively, jokingly or was it just because of their standing compared to mine, so it matters on who the person is treating it.

 

Then again the lifestyle I live it's not uncommon for sexist terms to be used. Outside of the lifestyle yeah I'm going to be offended and the person in general is getting a small talking to. inside the lifestyle it's different.

 

[JavaTigress]

If she were actually pregnant, then the radiation from the xray might be a concern - except not really. The levels of radiation given off by an xray are ridiculously low, especially since techs are trained to proceed as such as to expose the person to as little radiation as possible. If her child-bearing abilities, not an actual pregnancy, were at risk, then no one with the ability to bear a child would ever be able to get a pelvic xray.

 

I find this quote quite pertinent to the discussion. The info came from here.

 

 

 

So yes, her doctor is failing to produce an acceptable standard of care, by denying her the diagnostics she needs.

 

That doctor's negligence also has the potential of screwing up other parts of her body, from an orthopedic standpoint. For instance, a problem with the hips that's left unaddressed for too long can also cause problems with the ankles, knees, and back, and anything attached due to the body having to compensate for the 'broken' part, often to the detriment of the structures of everything else that aren't designed to function in that manner.

Then I don't get it.

 

IF There is negligible risk to ANYTHING by recieving an X-ray.... HOW can the doc even use that as an excuse?

[Kith]

Then I don't get it.

 

IF There is negligible risk to ANYTHING by recieving an X-ray.... HOW can the doc even use that as an excuse?

No idea, other than paranoia... All I had to do was sign a waiver that I wouldn't sue the doc if I got accidentally sterilized before I had an X-ray on my lower back/pelvic region. I hope you find a more reasonable doctor.

[Starscream]

My stepfather was "mildly" sexist. He basically did not feel I was able to do the things I knew how to do, he turned down my offerings of assistance in matters pertaining to wood working equipment use. Could be because he is older and I am younger.

 

He also told me that making a boat would take skill - challenge accepted. I built that boat. He had very specific ideas of what women should do and what they should not do. I suppose I was a strange challenge to him. I am very much a tom boy.

 

I work in a male dominated field - so I can face sexism there. One of the things I find is - or have noticed, is that restaurants tend to want their women (servers) dressed in skirts and high heels. Checking labour regulations - this is actually illegal. Men and women's garmets should not differ in style. If the code is white shirt and black plants/shoes, then women should be able to choose flat soled shoes if they desire.

 

I did pose the question to one general manager, "If a man wished to wear a skirt, may he?" and she said, after a long pause, "yes, I could not discriminate."

 

Allowing the women an option ot wearing heels or flats (men can do this too if they choose) is important. If I were to work as a server, I would not wear heels. I do not deem them healthy. My feet are wide, even 1 inch heels hurt the hell out of my feet. My knees are already screwed. I cannot imagine having to wear heels like the poor servers had to when the entire head office converged on our restaurant. Imagine - 8 hours running food back and forth, across slick tiles, or grabby carpet. I felt bad for them.

 

I over heard something at work, that the owner had never hired women cooks before myself and the other girl. So for some reason we aren't viewed in a good manner as cooks, which is ironic because - "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen." Concept.

 

In the kitchen there can be sexist moments. However I can be equally sexist back. Generally there - it is a bit of banter. I find banter acceptable providing both sides are okay with it.

 

I have not yet encountered a kitchen where it is viciously sexist. I am sure they exist, but I have been fortunate to avoid it.

 

Essentially, I will not put up with stuff that I deem true sexism. If someone says I can't do something because I am female - damn straight I am gonna do it.

 

The concept of child bearing... Okay, granted, females are the gender that does it naturally, but I am not going to have kids ever. So, like Syaoransbear said, that isn't gonna happen - I am 40 this year. So yeah, keep your childbearing opinions to your self and give me the treatment I need to lead a fulfilling and happy life. And yes, I have had people say "Oh you'll change your mind!" I dated a guy who took me to a friend who would attempt to charm me into having children with colourful metaphors I cannot repeat in here. Which immediately turned me off and told me in one sentence what quality of character she was. This guy simply did not understand that NO, I did not want children - Ever. Part of why i broke up with him. It would not work out.

 

My husband stands up for me in regards to sexist situations. He supports my decision not to have children. I generally ask about one a year if he is still okay with that. I do not really want to deny him that, but I was lucky in that he also feels the same way as I do. He knows what I like - better than that aforementioned boyfriend I had (he used to get my girly girl crap) - His coworkers wanted to go out paint-balling and asked if he wanted to come. He responded with "I'm gonna bring my wife." they groaned "Oh, don't bring the wife." to which he quickly replied "you don't know my wife." And we all had a blast.

 

 

 

 

[JavaTigress]

My stepfather was "mildly" sexist. He basically did not feel I was able to do the things I knew how to do, he turned down my offerings of assistance in matters pertaining to wood working equipment use. Could be because he is older and I am younger.

 

He also told me that making a boat would take skill - challenge accepted. I built that boat. He had very specific ideas of what women should do and what they should not do. I suppose I was a strange challenge to him. I am very much a tom boy.

 

I work in a male dominated field - so I can face sexism there. One of the things I find is - or have noticed, is that restaurants tend to want their women (servers) dressed in skirts and high heels. Checking labour regulations - this is actually illegal. Men and women's garmets should not differ in style. If the code is white shirt and black plants/shoes, then women should be able to choose flat soled shoes if they desire.

 

I did pose the question to one general manager, "If a man wished to wear a skirt, may he?" and she said, after a long pause, "yes, I could not discriminate."

 

Allowing the women an option ot wearing heels or flats (men can do this too if they choose) is important. If I were to work as a server, I would not wear heels. I do not deem them healthy. My feet are wide, even 1 inch heels hurt the hell out of my feet. My knees are already screwed. I cannot imagine having to wear heels like the poor servers had to when the entire head office converged on our restaurant. Imagine - 8 hours running food back and forth, across slick tiles, or grabby carpet. I felt bad for them.

 

I over heard something at work, that the owner had never hired women cooks before myself and the other girl. So for some reason we aren't viewed in a good manner as cooks, which is ironic because - "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen." Concept.

 

In the kitchen there can be sexist moments. However I can be equally sexist back. Generally there - it is a bit of banter. I find banter acceptable providing both sides are okay with it.

 

I have not yet encountered a kitchen where it is viciously sexist. I am sure they exist, but I have been fortunate to avoid it.

 

Essentially, I will not put up with stuff that I deem true sexism. If someone says I can't do something because I am female - damn straight I am gonna do it.

 

The concept of child bearing... Okay, granted, females are the gender that does it naturally, but I am not going to have kids ever. So, like Syaoransbear said, that isn't gonna happen - I am 40 this year. So yeah, keep your childbearing opinions to your self and give me the treatment I need to lead a fulfilling and happy life. And yes, I have had people say "Oh you'll change your mind!" I dated a guy who took me to a friend who would attempt to charm me into having children with colourful metaphors I cannot repeat in here. Which immediately turned me off and told me in one sentence what quality of character she was. This guy simply did not understand that NO, I did not want children - Ever. Part of why i broke up with him. It would not work out.

 

My husband stands up for me in regards to sexist situations. He supports my decision not to have children. I generally ask about one a year if he is still okay with that. I do not really want to deny him that, but I was lucky in that he also feels the same way as I do. He knows what I like - better than that aforementioned boyfriend I had (he used to get my girly girl crap) - His coworkers wanted to go out paint-balling and asked if he wanted to come. He responded with "I'm gonna bring my wife." they groaned "Oh, don't bring the wife." to which he quickly replied "you don't know my wife." And we all had a blast.

No. uggh.

 

I would not want to wait tables in heals....l my feet would be killing be the time my shift was over. I could see allowing the OPTION, but I , for one, would prefer to be allowed to wear more 'sensible shoes to work if my job is going to require me to be on my feet for any great deal of time.

[Starscream]

It is, for a fact, breaking the law in ontario at least. I was going to try to report them myself, however I was unable to get my hands on a servers uniform requirements. When I spoke to a few servers, they knew it was illegal to require them, but they were "too afraid to lose their jobs over it".

 

I generally gather information and then contact the right authorities. But I think its my nature at the sight of rule breaking - likely why I am a moderator (just wired that way). But then again - considering how people tend to be more passive (in the manner of not acting because of fear of retaliation). As far as I am concerned, take it to the correct authorities, if they do retaliate, you got more grounds against them. Particularly if you've gone through the right channels and did not do something dumb...(admittedly I can sometimes do the dumb things).

 

But in regards to losing jobs over a situation. If they are breaking gender equity laws, what other rules or laws are they ignoring.

 

I am currently gathering information against where I work - more from health and safety side not sexism. (another topic in any event)

 

I urge anyone who finds sexist attitudes directed at them, or people they know to assist in stopping it. I am not talking about extreme feminism. I get tickled when a man holds the door for me. It'll never end if people turn a blind eye to it.

[Omega Entity]

Heels for a job in which it's unsuitable attire seems like it'd fall under OSHA laws here in the states, which are guidelines put in place to help ensure workplace safety - and I think that includes dress requirements that would not cause bodily harm, which imo, heels can certainly do so.

 

I think there's also protections in place for those who report violation of said rules, but I'm a bit fuzzy on it all.