Sexism

Alpha1 · January 15, 2014

Girls get toys that prepare them for a life of their appearance being their most important asset and boys get toys that evolve their interests and individuality.

user posted image

The problem with talking about "rape culture" in ANY country is that the *majority* of rapes aren't even reported.

And nobody talks about this.

http://www.businessinsider.com/women-abusi...etention-2013-7

www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

“Approximately 95% of all youth reporting staff sexual misconduct said they had been victimized by female staff. In 2008, 42% of staff in state juvenile facilities were female.”

I know women all over the world who "expect" to be treated as lesser beings

Like this?

Also, I want to chime back on shaming and rape culture: That's a US problem.

How did you figure that? Rape stat comparisons are hard to do, and many people just like to point to the stats without considering demographics.

user posted image

I have just been talking to a teacher who has regular contact with many girls and boys aged between 16 and 20. They all agree that the culture where men see themselves as superior is getting steadily worse (after it HAD been improving somewhat over several years) - this, they all agree, has been very much worse over the last 10 years.

Any evidence for it besides observation? This reminds me of how many people like to claim that people were more moral and upright decades ago.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33248122/ns/business-careers/

“The survey found that around three-quarters of men and women believe that the growing presence of women in the workplace has been very or somewhat positive for American society and the economy.”

There was a more recent one that I believe said 80%, but I can’t seem to find it.

“Americans are becoming more accepting of single mothers as well. In a survey conducted April 25-28, Pew found that 64 percent of Americans said the growing number of children born to unmarried mothers is a “big problem,” down from 71 percent in 2007.”

Women STILL earn less for the same amount of work

No they don’t.

user posted image

This graph doesn’t account for the factors for the gap, so it’s even smaller than what the Pew graph states.

From Pew:

“There has been much scholarly research about the underlying causes of the gender wage gap. Most, but not all of the wage gap can be explained by certain measurable factors such as educational attainment, occupational segregation and differences in the number of hours worked (even among full-time workers).”

Tell me - how can you who keep saying there's no discrimination try and say the world is not slanted against women ?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90402092915.htm

Apr. 2, 2009 — A couple's sexual orientation determines whether or not they prefer to adopt a boy or a girl. Gay men are more likely to have a gender preference for their adopted child whereas heterosexual men are the least likely. What's more, couples in heterosexual relationships are more likely to prefer girls than people in same-gender relationships, according to Dr. Abbie Goldberg from Clark University in the US.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.co...doption-process

Now, childless couples prefer to adopt girls

http://www.caltech.edu/content/african-ame...ted-study-shows

“The second pattern shown was the gender preference. "A girl has a higher—by slightly more than one-third—chance of attracting the attention of potential adoptive parents than a boy," says Felli.”

“These preferences come with what is essentially a price tag, the researchers note. The data showed that parents are willing to pay an average of $16,000 more in finalization costs for a girl as opposed to a boy, says Yariv”

Lila · January 15, 2014

I want to flip the coin for a moment. Not necessarily "discrimination", per se, but what about attitudes towards men? For instance, liking MLP makes you gay or a fairy, not being touch and macho makes you a loser, etc.

KageSora · January 15, 2014

I want to flip the coin for a moment. Not necessarily "discrimination", per se, but what about attitudes towards men? For instance, liking MLP makes you gay or a fairy, not being touch and macho makes you a loser, etc.

It all circles back to misogyny, really.

Those things are seen as girly, and if you're "girly" then that makes you less of a man somehow, as if it's a bad thing.

By tackling the problem of a male-dominated society that doesn't properly respect women and treat them as equal, we can help stop the issue of men being treated as lesser for what they like, too.

It's like this post I've seen a few times:

Basically, the worst thing you can call somebody is a girl. (Various names for female private parts being considered worse than being called a "dick", the use of the b-word, etc.)

Kelkelen · January 15, 2014

but - I have to ask - did they EVER try it the other way? abortion of boys due to them having already a firstborn boy or two boys?

If not, I cannot take such a study seriously. The overall statistics for the UK seem to be fine.

I would also be curious to see the statistics of 2nd and 3rd children's sex when the firstborn is a boy, just for comparison.

However, I think this is a pretty solid statement from the article series:

"The second possibility [as opposed to "keep making babies til you get a boy"] is gender-selective abortions, notably women aborting female foetuses in the hope of getting pregnant again with a boy. This may well take preference over the “don’t stop” strategy in an age when controlling the overall size of your family is just as important as controlling its gender make-up.

Statisticians from Imperial College tested both scenarios on the data supplied to The Independent by the ONS. They found that the “don’t stop until you get a boy” could in fact explain much of the sex-ratio anomalies seen in the two-child families of parents born in India, China, Nepal and the rest of East Asia.

However it could not explain all of the anomalies seen in the families of mothers born in Pakistan and Afghanistan – and possibly Bangladesh. Put simply, our analysis indicates that gender-selective abortions must be taking place in these communities."

Seeing as they used national census data from the Office of National Statistics, and had professional statisticians assess that data, I don't see why you're inclined to disagree with the statisticians' findings.

I also do wonder why the overall national birth rate is normal, if this is happening -- is it simply due to larger numbers, so that the difference goes unnoticed? Or is something happening elsewhere to balance it out?

Lila · January 18, 2014

What do you guys think of people who say things like "what if the woman regrets it and changes her mind to say it was rape?"

Because I think it's disgusting that someone would do that, but I don't know how you would approach that situation objectively, if that makes any sense.

Obscure_Trash · January 18, 2014

What do you guys think of people who say things like "what if the woman regrets it and changes her mind to say it was rape?"

Because I think it's disgusting that someone would do that, but I don't know how you would approach that situation objectively, if that makes any sense.

False rape accusations occur less than 1% of the time. A man is 631 times more likely to become an NFL player than to be falsely accused of rape. Men are 82,000 times more likely to be raped than falsely accused of rape.

I think comments like that are:

Derailing to rape culture and discussions of rape culture
Ignorant and quite offensive to all rape victims and survivors

Is that the an issue that might need addressed due to the few instances where it happens now or in the future when rape culture is more dismantled? Sure. Absolutely. Of course. BUT I think it heavily ignores the culture now where people do not even know or understand what rape is. It's like the stats of how many college men will admit to raping or attempting to rape someone if you just don't describe it with the word rape. Soooooo many victims and survivors never knew their experience was rape. They knew it didn't feel right and it made them uncomfortable, but perhaps they thought they had asked for it, that they deserved it, that it was the rapist's right, that it just happened to everyone, that they were being too sensitive, whatever. It's heartbreaking if you follow any kind of sexism or rape culture blogs just how many asks they get with people describing a situation in which they were raped and asking if they were raped. They literally are unsure if their rape was rape. They may have originally described a situation as consensual to others because that's all they know. But there may also come a point where they have some awakening and education and realize it was rape and start describing it as such. And I think comments like that which you listed go a long way in silencing victims and survivors of situations like this. I think it is largely a statement that is trying to make awareness of rape culture look ridiculous in order to take credibility away. Edited January 18, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

Lila · January 18, 2014

I felt similarly about it silencing victims...and the fact that people choose to focus on that just seems like them wanting to perpetuate a society that doesn't acknowledge rape as a black-and-white crime.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your stats from? I want be able to cite a source if I ever get in such a discussion with someone again.

Obscure_Trash · January 18, 2014

General warning for possible language in comments of any links.

This had the numbers on things more likely to happen to men than a false rape accusation: http://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-th...an-being-f-fmeu

The less than 1% stat I have around here somewhere, but it might take me a little while to find. I have too much in my tumblr tags. >.> I do remember the article pointing out that people are more likely to falsely report auto-theft than they are to falesely report a rape.

While looking (attempting google), here are other things that may be of interest:

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2011/04/07/do-w...lie-about-rape/

The police department’s reply was brash, at best. It described circumstances that would lead to a rape report being labeled “unfounded,” including:
The victim reports while under the influence of drugs or alcohol (although studies have shown that in 55 percent of rape cases, alcohol or drugs are involved; in acquaintance rape cases, that number is sometimes as high as 80 to 90 percent).

Young women report rape to cover up truancy, pregnancy, lost money or sexual precocity.

Adult women report rape to cover up infidelity, indiscretion, lateness or pregnancy.

A rape is reported so that the survivor can obtain an abortion or the morning-after pill free of charge.

Women report rape to “obtain revenge” on a man who has “done her wrong,” or to make her partner “feel guilty” after a “lover’s quarrel.”

Girls lie about rape all the time, for reasons “known only to [themselves].”

Shockingly, the Philly police department’s list of reasons that rape cases would be classified as false also includes instances in which the victim has a history of mental illness and reports a rape by a celebrity.

It also mentioned:

Do women lie about rape? According to Joanne Archambault, a former sex crimes unit supervisor, the answer is fairly simple: “[False reports] are not a problem. They happen, but they’re not a problem.” Research has shown that only roughly 2 to 8 percent of rape reports are untrue, (for car thefts, another felony offense, that number is about 10 percent [pdf].) Two to 8 percent is a pretty small number to justify the climate of fear around false rape reports.

(Some links in article for stats.)

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/...tions-are-rare/

A new study is set for publication this December in the journal Violence Against Women, based on a review of every single rape allegation made to a US university police department — the study does not disclose which school — over a ten year period. The result: 5.9 percent false allegations.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/20...cs-are-so-high/

When male friends toss that grenade at me, I toss it back by asking if they know what the percentage is. “Fifty percent,” they’ll say, or above, depending on which MRAs their stats are coming from.

“It’s two to eight percent,” I say, and I need to remember to never do this when they’re walking or have something in their mouths, because the good ones are always staggered, and they always gasp. “But even those numbers are on the high side.”When male friends toss that grenade at me, I toss it back by asking if they know what the percentage is. “Fifty percent,” they’ll say, or above, depending on which MRAs their stats are coming from.

“It’s two to eight percent,” I say, and I need to remember to never do this when they’re walking or have something in their mouths, because the good ones are always staggered, and they always gasp. “But even those numbers are on the high side.”

Article goes on to talk about why that's high.

I also have a link that I don't think is quite appropriate for the forum due to some descriptions of the rape, but it's about a survivor and titled I Am A False Rape Allegation Statistic describing the torture the police put her through to force her to say she made the whole thing up. I can PM if you want. Major trigger warning, though, for rape and police manipulation/abuse.

http://thescarletwoman.tumblr.com/post/397...orts-and-why-it

much more reliable studies have shown that false rape reports fall somewhere between the 2%-8% range, in line with false reports for other kinds of crimes.

I found something mentioning the less than 1% estimate (0.06%), but the link on the post got messed up somehow. Actually, I think that page is just wonky because any link I click on that redirects me to the user's main tumblr page - even when I just clicked on another user's username. o_O

Aha! Having the exact number helped: News article: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2...are?view=mobile

Research: http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/researc..._march_2013.pdf

Note this lower number is the recent research - more recent than the 2 - 8% number.

Edited January 18, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

Lila · January 18, 2014

Thanks!

Shienvien · January 18, 2014

False rape accusations happen, but luckily they are rare (although my opinion of the people who would report rape just to get back to an individual because some personal disagreements or any other petty reason is the lowest of the low - not only are they putting something like that on an innocent individual, but they also trivializing the experiences of all actual victims). There is, however, disturbingly high number of men who live under the constant fear of false accusations like that in some regions - to the point where they won't dare to be in the same room with a woman alone if there is no camera installed there...

(Those are US statistics quoted, I got the impression?)

whitebaron · January 18, 2014

I think one of the biggest issues is, for the lack of a better name, spontaneous "accidental" sex under the influence of drugs.

I've seen so many instances of this, where one or even both sides were upset about the night before - or worse, like a friend of mine who made a child at 16 - dont even remember.its very unclear in legal terms what it is, and opinions vary from stupidity to full-out-rape.

Kith · January 19, 2014

I think one of the biggest issues is, for the lack of a better name, spontaneous "accidental" sex under the influence of drugs.

I've seen so many instances of this, where one or even both sides were upset about the night before - or worse, like a friend of mine who made a child at 16 - dont even remember.its very unclear in legal terms what it is, and opinions vary from stupidity to full-out-rape.

I'm actually not sure how the cases in which both partners are intoxicated/high are handled, and it's a really uncomfortable gray area. I'm sure some of the sex is accidental in the fact that they wouldn't have done it if they'd been sober, but I've also heard of people who will have a drink or two in order to preempt a rape charge in case their drunken date decides to cry foul the next day. >..<

The ones where one is sober and one is not tend to lay all the blame on the sober person, whether or not they instigated sexual contact, due to the whole lack of competence issue.

Obscure_Trash · January 20, 2014

(Those are US statistics quoted, I got the impression?)

Yes. :3 I am not sure on stats in other areas, but am always interested in learning if anybody has them to share.

I'm actually not sure how the cases in which both partners are intoxicated/high are handled, and it's a really uncomfortable gray area. I'm sure some of the sex is accidental in the fact that they wouldn't have done it if they'd been sober, but I've also heard of people who will have a drink or two in order to preempt a rape charge in case their drunken date decides to cry foul the next day. >..<

This, this, so much this, especially the bolding.

There's a real problem with that we treat this as SO much of a gray area, but there are many rapists get drunk as an excuse so it can't be counted as rape. I agree that sometimes things happen and two drunk people fall in together. However, I think when people bring up alcohol and try to focus on it as why "rape can be a gray area" or "see this is an example of when women just make it up" it tends to trivialize and ignore just how many rapists know they can get away with it if they get drunk first.

Back when I was still with my bf - one of his friends and housemates had a gf. College house, so there was a fair bit of drinking. He was bigger and had a harder time actually getting drunk. She was smaller and got tipsy pretty easily. She also liked getting tipsy. There was another guy, a real scumbag, that came over every so often and he liked this woman. Keep in mind there were like 5 - 7 people living in the house at any given time and people living there often brought over friends at night to watch shows and get drunk. Every. Single. Time. this scumbag came over when more people were around brought over alcohol and would drink with her. He'd get drunk and get her drunk then grope her and attempt to finger her and all sorts of crap. When her bf would pull him off and yell at him, he'd always resort to pathetic sniveling "oh, I'm drunk, too, thinks happen" etc., etc. We don't talk about instances like this that often when alcohol comes up and they're scarily common.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/s...theyre-rapists/

It's a terrifying trend and, thing is, people trying to frame these instances as "gray areas" and what basically amounts to victim blaming and rape apologia while ignoring this crap that goes on are likely people who have done this crap and want to keep getting away with it.

Kith · January 20, 2014

As disturbing as these trends are, I'm also disturbed that they imply that only men sexually assault people, and that only women are targeted. Though that second link there doesn't specify the gender of the victim, most do, and that first sentence frames the whole article in terms of man-on-woman assault.

MasterWeavile898 · January 20, 2014

Well, that is kind of more common. And people are far more willing to believe that men are evil and just want sex and to oppress women than they are that everyone is equally bad. But back to that first little statement, it is actually more common for it to be man on woman than anything else. It just kind of is. Whether that's because of nature, culture, potato chips, whatever, that's just how it is. That doesn't mean we should act like everything is always that way, but it does explain why we have a tendency to

Kith · January 20, 2014

Ah, here we go. Found one (which references others) that frame it the other way 'round.

http://business.highbeam.com/435388/articl...-prevalence-and

Full PDF version (40 pages): http://www.psych.uni-potsdam.de/social/pro...-aggression.pdf

Relevant excerpt: "However, the present finding that almost 1 in 10 women made a man engage in

sexual contact against his will and 1 in 20 attempted to do so underlines the importance of

incorporating the study of women's sexual aggression into the mainstream of sexual

aggression research."

(edited for inclusion of more info and spelling derp)

Edited January 20, 2014 by Kith

Obscure_Trash · January 20, 2014

I'm also disturbed that they imply that only men sexually assault people, and that only women are targeted. Though that second link there doesn't specify the gender of the victim, most do, and that first sentence frames the whole article in terms of man-on-woman assault.

That's true. Male victims and survivors are often silenced. Victims and survivors of color are often silenced. Trans victims and survivors are often silenced. The struggle of rape culture has definitely been given the face as cis white women as the targets.

I'm not so bothered when we tend to frame rapists as male or when we talk mainly about rapists as male because 99% of rapists are male. It is ridiculous when people out right deny that only males can rape, though (such as when it is a woman rapist and a male victim or survivor and people wonder how he could have even been raped). I am bothered when we frame it as a black male issue (something like 90% of rapists are white but 95% of rapists in jail are black), too. I'm more than happy to talk about rapists as not just male. However, I am bothered when I'm having a specific discussion on rape culture and MRAs or other such garbage wander into the conversation demanding derailing things that we aren't even denying.

However, with just how prevalent the US' rape culture is, I would not be surprised if lots of "normal relationship" stuff that is really abuse/harassment/coercion slips by through everyone without it ever being noted as what it really is. =\

*I know the numbers on my stats are right AFAIK them, but I'm not completely confident which number belongs where.

Edited January 20, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

MasterWeavile898 · January 20, 2014

I'm not so bothered when we tend to frame rapists as male or when we talk mainly about rapists as male because 99% of rapists are male.

^Yeah, this

While it's true that it can go either way, for the most part it just kinda doesn't. And it's simpler to just speak as if rapists are male than to have to be inclusive of females also

KageSora · January 20, 2014

And people are far more willing to believe that men are evil and just want sex and to oppress women than they are that everyone is equally bad.

Actually, it's not so much people want to believe that men are evil and oppress women, it's that we (in the US, anyway) have a culture that uses the excuses of "he's a man, it's in his nature to be more sexual and aggressive" and "boys will be boys" to excuse instances of males being abusive, rape, and other sexual harassment and assault.

Mind you, I'm not denying that there ARE people out there who are happier to just believe males are evil oppressive scum and that females the innocent victims all the time forever. Sadly, such people clearly exist. Just sayin' that it actually seems to be more of a conditioning with society to try to excuse the behaviors under silly arguments than a desire to believe that males are inherently worse than females or anything like that.

MasterWeavile898 · January 20, 2014

AH AH AH That's wrong >_< Sorry, we're tired and I have a headache. Lemme give a go at stating that better, because that statement says something entirely different from my intent

I meant to say that people are more willing to believe men are violent. Don't ask me how that translates to, er, that in my head For example, in elementary school it's a common thing for guys to "not be allowed" to hit a girl. But it's acted as if hitting another guy is perfectly normal. 'Cause, ya know, guys are violent and girls aren't (Always gave me trouble because people, of either sex, seemed to expect me to hit them when they insulted me. Girls would tell me how I wasn't allowed because they were girls, guys would be, if you'll excuse the terminology, guys)

KageSora · January 20, 2014

AH AH AH That's wrong >_< Sorry, we're tired and I have a headache. Lemme give a go at stating that better, because that statement says something entirely different from my intent

I meant to say that people are more willing to believe men are violent. Don't ask me how that translates to, er, that in my head For example, in elementary school it's a common thing for guys to "not be allowed" to hit a girl. But it's acted as if hitting another guy is perfectly normal. 'Cause, ya know, guys are violent and girls aren't (Always gave me trouble because people, of either sex, seemed to expect me to hit them when they insulted me. Girls would tell me how I wasn't allowed because they were girls, guys would be, if you'll excuse the terminology, guys)

And, again, that ties into the idea perpetuated by culture that "boys will be boys" and that they're "naturally more aggressive". As well as the whole idea of treating females differently, with the whole "don't hit females" thing.

They're taught that they're naturally more aggressive in other areas, and that ends up translating into the area of sexuality--they're more aggressive in their attempts to get a female they've decided they're interested in, and they're more aggressive in denying attempts by the female to convey disinterest.

Alpha1 · January 20, 2014

Those things are seen as girly, and if you're "girly" then that makes you less of a man somehow, as if it's a bad thing.

Lacking assertiveness/confidence isn’t good. I know watching MLP doesn’t necessarily mean that, but the assumption made by others is that they’re watching it because they haven’t grown up.

It's like this post I've seen a few times:
Basically, the worst thing you can call somebody is a girl. (Various names for female private parts being considered worse than being called a "dick", the use of the b-word, etc.)

Being called a * or a girl is less likely to hurt someone than being called a **, manchild, loser, creep, etc. Those are more likely to be directed to someone who isn’ t well-adjusted, and they imply something worse.

What do you guys think of people who say things like "what if the woman regrets it and changes her mind to say it was rape?”

It’s a legitimate question. If they think it happens very often, then correct them. I know a lot of people will just dismiss it and call them a victim blamer, rape apologist, etc. Kind of like the responses Dr. Phil got when he asked a question about sex with a drunk woman.

False rape accusations occur less than 1% of the time.

Incorrect. The source you got that from was only counting accusations that were prosecuted. With all the different terminology and methodology, the numbers have been all over the place.

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/6/1152.full

“As recent incisive reviews have highlighted, false allegations have been found to represent 1.5 per cent of rape cases, 90 per cent of rape cases and virtually every other figure in between (Rumney 2006; Lisak et al. 2010). Explaining these vastly divergent research findings is relatively straightforward. Prevalence is contingent on what precisely is being counted, and who is doing the counting (Greer 1999; Turvey 2004; Rumney 2006; Lisak et al. 2010).”

“Rather, the point is this: while researchers’, commentators’ and, indeed, readers’ own personal politics and theoretical persuasions may lead them to prefer some (usually the lower) estimates of the prevalence of false allegations over others, there is currently no empirical justification for the wholesale dismissal of front-line criminal justice professionals’ reports of their frequency. First, because, given the mixed bag of research findings, the only thing we know with any certainty about the prevalence of false allegations of rape is that we do not know how prevalent they are. And, second, because there has been little, if any, attempt by researchers to date to ensure that they understand—or, if they do understand, to accurately reflect in their research reports—what their interview respondents perceive as constituting a false allegation.”

I think it is largely a statement that is trying to make awareness of rape culture look ridiculous in order to take credibility away.

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