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[Banuk]

You may well be right. It isn't as if I have a brain .

 

But I would support their counting as spam in suggestions, too, actually. They really do slow down discussion of a suggestion.

 

So hit me. I'm old; I can take it

I wouldn't mind this either.

 

I see people getting in a tizzy over posts saying, "I don't like this", while posts that just say, "Support." or "I like this." or the dreaded, "^this" are considered to be just fine.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't support (heh) nailing "I support's" with warns. Yes, yes, they're not contributing much to the discussion, but slapping someone with a warn for just voicing general support for something still seems over the top. This topic came up before, and the general agreement was that people don't always have much to say or add to an idea, but still think it's great and want to let the creator know so. They shouldn't be punished for that. Also, it seems rather odd to have it only serve as a rule in one section rather than all of them...

[PointOfOrigin]

Well, there is a bit of difference. When you just say "I don't like it" you aren't helping. If you don't like it at least tell why not and give some suggestions to improve the idea.

 

"I like it", from the other side, just means that you can't think of anything else to better the idea. And if there's enough of post like that without any real criticism it probably means that it could be a good improvement for the site. Although, I do agree - things like that should be expressed in polls.

Edited March 25, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, there is a bit of difference. When you just say "I don't like it" you aren't helping. If you don't like it at least tell why not and give some suggestions to improve the idea.

 

"I like it", from the other side, just means that you can't think of anything else to better the idea. And if there's enough of post like that without any real criticism it probably means that it could be a good improvement for the site. Although, I do agree - things like that should be expressed in polls.

Thing about polls is that if the discussion makes you change your mind, you can't change your VOTE. That is REALLY annoying...

[HeatherMarie]

I disagree with you with the bolded statement. Mods can provide just as much help as the users - sometimes more, depending on the case.

(bolding mine)

Yes, but how often DO they provide it? I have the same issue angelicdragonpuppy has with that "new" spam-definition. Yes, Mods *can* provide the same info that users provide about why the topic is spam, what the poster can do instead, etc.... But how often DO they? Not often, not that I've seen. I'm sure they do sometimes, of course, but I've lost count of the number of "duplicate" threads that are closed with a Mod ONLY copy/pasting the spiel about searching before making a topic. No link to the "real" topic or whatever. (And honestly, I take issue with the whole "search before posting!" attitude anyways, since the search feature SUCKS and I've spent 20+ minutes attempting to use it with no luck whatsoever).

 

doesn't reply to anybody, and doesn't give anybody anything to reply to.

Okay, simple "I support" or "+1!" posts might fall under this definition, but what about edge-cases? What about something like "I think this could really help the cave, I support it!". It's not *just* "I support", it states a reason, and yet it still isn't "replying" to anyone or giving anyone something to "reply" to. Where's the line?

 

So, as a whole:

Spam is defined as content that meets one or more of the following criteria:

 

 

    does not pertain to the thread topic or current discussion.

    is primarily an advertisement for a web site or product.

    doesn't reply to anybody, and doesn't give anybody anything to reply to.

    consists of just an emote or a picture (unless explicitly allowed in a given section).

  could be submitted as a post report instead (e.g. posting that a topic is inappropriate and needs to be closed).

 

Bolded are the ones I'm concerned about, have questions about. The first one.... as long as it's made clear *to the mods* what "pertaining to current discussion" means, I think that could work.

[Lythiaren]

I don't support (heh) nailing "I support's" with warns. Yes, yes, they're not contributing much to the discussion, but slapping someone with a warn for just voicing general support for something still seems over the top. This topic came up before, and the general agreement was that people don't always have much to say or add to an idea, but still think it's great and want to let the creator know so. They shouldn't be punished for that. Also, it seems rather odd to have it only serve as a rule in one section rather than all of them...

I agree. Anyone who's wandered into one of my suggestion threads knows that I do a lot of thinking. In some cases I wind up doing a lot of overthinking, mulling over details about anything ranging from implementation to worldbuilding. A lot of the time I get so in-depth that people who read my threads have a hard time thinking of anything to add, so sometimes they make +1 posts. But most of the time people don't post at all, and that's really frustrating when I'm poking around cleaning up typos and stuff in my post and see 5-6 people reading, but very few of them comment. And most of those comments wind up being +1 posts because I type so much. The worst part is, someone reports a lot of the people who do comment, and they get warned! The end result is that an idea gets buried simply because I thought about it so much. If you want a recent example you can look at that BSA thread I made a while back; it has not a single negative response so far, but it slides unceasingly downward because people aren't hammering out details in it; I already did that before posting.

 

And that's why I don't post suggestion-type things anymore; my threads tend to be breeding grounds for warns simply because of how much I think about my suggestions before posting them. What am I supposed to do? Deliberately leave out information for fear of getting other people warned?

 

----

Agreeing with Marie as well. I report duplicate threads in the video games forum sometimes, and I usually post a link to the existing thread in both the duplicate thread and the report. That way if the poster is watching their thread, they can move to the other thread and discuss whatever they wanted to discuss, and the mod won't need to copy/paste as much stuff, won't need to merge anything, etc. I don't recall any of the mods handling my reports asking me to stop doing it, so I just kind of concluded that it's just easier for everybody. I'd certainly stop posting links if asked, but I'd feel sorry for the people who can't find the threads for whatever games they want to talk about. *shrug*

Edited March 26, 2013 by Lythiaren

[KageSora]

I think support/+1 supports should be fine.

 

I mean... What if it's a very well-thought-out suggestion? And people like it but don't have anything to add?

 

I mean, if nobody comments and nobody really has much of anything to say to improve it... It'll get very few comments, and that could be taken as most people don't like it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think support/+1 supports should be fine.

 

I mean... What if it's a very well-thought-out suggestion? And people like it but don't have anything to add?

 

I mean, if nobody comments and nobody really has much of anything to say to improve it... It'll get very few comments, and that could be taken as most people don't like it.

This. I know that when I make a suggestion thread and it doesn't get many posts, I tend to think it's not very popular, and in the already sloth-paced BSA section I can see really great suggestions that no one has anything to add to sliding away to get lost behind BSAs that people aren't as fond of where there's a ruckus goin' on.

 

Yes yes yes, I realize a thread could just add a poll to capture those 'support' posts, but:

- A vote can't be changed later, which is annoying if the idea suddenly shifts in a way that contradicts how you felt about it when you voted

- A lot of votes seem pretty reactionary, from what I've seen. I'll make a poll, and then have someone posted "I voted no because x" when I already explained explicitly in the thread why x isn't an issue. Whereas people who go to the trouble of posting, even just an "I support" post, usually seem to have considered the idea more deeply. Thus, I value their support more than a vote support.

- Votes don't bump a thread, which means a thread that has a ton of vote support could still get buried behind other threads where there's active debate going on.

 

[HeatherMarie]

Agree, agree agree. Especially with stuff like suggestions, it's sort of an automatic given that if a specific suggestion thread only has 4 replies, people in general are going to take the suggestion less seriously, maybe not open the thread at all, etc.... But what if those 4 replies became 15-20 if people were allowed to simply *show support* for the idea without having to *explain* themselves?

 

We aren't required to explain *why* we like certain breeds of dragons, or *why* we are breeders instead of CB-pickers (or vice versa), or *why* we prefer a sitting black alt.... Why are we required to explain *why* we support a suggestion? Isn't it enough for people to simply know that hey, yeah, I read this thread and I support it!

[TJ09]

Or, you could do exactly what you're doing right now: Provide a reason. Even if you agree, you can still add by explaining why you like it. That way, if the suggestion must be changed, everyone will know what parts are popular, and what aren't.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

And sometimes the reason has already been stated a dozen times or more, and simply repeating what has already been said a dozen times, doesn't really contribute to the conversation. THAT is why 'I support' should be allowed.

 

'I do not support' SHOULD have a reason tho, otherwise one won't know why the suggestion is so disliked. Unless of course the same reason is constantly repeated, in which case the suggestion might need to be reworded.

[KageSora]

I don't see how restating the same reason for your support that's been stated a dozen times already is any less spammy than just saying that you support it...

[Lythiaren]

I don't see how restating the same reason for your support that's been stated a dozen times already is any less spammy than just saying that you support it...

^ That.

 

"I like it because xyz" five times in a row isn't any more informative than one person saying it and having four people just quote it with this/iawtp/qfe/+1, and both stimulate about the same amount of discussion. The former just makes a feedback echo chamber into a somewhat more literal echo chamber.

 

Besides, if you want to know what parts of a suggestion are popular to avoid accidentally cutting them out... well, now would be a good time to point out that people tend to kick up a fuss when something they like is under fire. Generally, people start protesting within minutes of proposing a tweak that would remove a popular aspect of a suggestion.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Lythiaren

[TJ09]

But it is more informative.

 

Suggestions aren't all-or-nothing. Having a gauge of what aspects people like and how many people like each bit is significantly more helpful than just knowing how many people like the whole thing.

 

Say 90% of people who like ascended dragons approve because they want an additional challenge once they collect a lot of dragons, and like the fact that the difficulty makes them exclusive, but all I see is that people want ascending. I then decide that the suggested method of obtaining them is too hard, and implement an easier way of obtaining them. And suddenly, no one likes ascending, even though the thread was overwhelmingly positive.

 

In addition, expanding on your post forces the author to put more thought into their post. That's essentially the entire goal of an anti-spam rule; posts should have content and meaning. You should at least use more brain cells than it takes to mechanically push "+1<submit>"

[Lythiaren]

In addition, expanding on your post forces the author to put more thought into their post.

So... what about people who have poured a whole lot of thought into their posts only to find that people aren't responding to it, or worse, getting reported for not having anything to add on to it when they do respond? What about those threads that are so well thought out from the get-go that they get buried for the simple fact that we've put too much thought into the very first post?

 

Not gonna lie here it feels kind of like you're telling people to put less thought into their thread openers and initial idea pitch to avoid accidentally railroading other people into getting spamwarns.

[TJ09]

I'm not seeing how it tells people to put less thought into their thread openers. I know you said you usually put so much into suggestions that it doesn't leave much to respond to, but that's from an idea development perspective. Past a certain point (that point being the absolute minimum needed to convey an idea), there is always a way to respond with what aspects you (dis-)like about something.

[RainDear]

This seems to me to be like those commentless rejects/accepts we get on our descriptions. When we get a reject without comments on what we think is a good description, we tend to believe that the rejector is just going through and rejecting everything, without bothering to read the descriptions, equally some descriptions seem to be accepted by people who are doing so randomly without actually reading the descriptions or considering the guidelines.

 

When you get just "I like" or "I don't like", you don't know whether the poster has read anything beyond the title of your thread, whether they understand your suggestion, or whether they are just posting for the sake of posting.

 

If you actually find something in a suggestion that speaks to you- whether positively or negatively- it shouldn't be a hardship to find a way to express why:

"I like this idea. It is something I think would be helpful/would add an extra dimension to gameplay/etc."

"I don't like this idea. It would make things too easy/hard. It would take away from my enjoyment of the game." or whatever.

 

At least when people enlarge upon their thoughts, you have an idea of whether they understand your concept, and if they misunderstood, you have the opportunity to clarify and make changes to your OP if necessary.

 

It seems like a reasonable expectation to me.

 

[Lythiaren]

Well, if people aren't supposed to post +1s, that means people who just like the whole idea and can't think of anything to add, will not post. Threads with very few posts don't get a lot of attention. A lot of the really well-thought-out ideas out here are also really good ideas for a myriad of reasons, but those reasons don't really get expounded on and from what I've seen, people who have posted really in-depth ideas also took the time to deal with most of the negative aspects of their suggestions so as to please as many people as they could, so they don't get a lot of people challenging their suggestions.

 

So you have a bunch of really good ideas that are getting buried by the curse of inactivity, because

1) supporters can't think of any way to improve the idea,

2) opposition is barely existent if it exists at all, and

3) very little discussion happens because there's so few points to discuss due to OP having detangled most of them before posting in the first place.

 

As it is we already have a lot of people going "I like this for reasons previously stated", which is just a more verbose +1.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Lythiaren

[KageSora]

I can't speak for others, but there have been times where I've read the OP, and there's nothing specific that I like but I just like the whole. I don't have a lot to say, because I'm not madly in love with the idea, but I have a little fondness for whatever is bein suggested.

 

I'm getting the vibe that people like me should just shut up and stay away rather than voicing general support that we can't really do much elaboration on beyond "I like for reasons already stated", which I honestly still think isn't much better than just "I like this idea" when you like the whole idea.

 

I personally mention specific parts I like and don't like when I have aspects of an idea that I don't love in its entirity, but not all suggestions have components to them that I don't like.

 

If you want to know how much support an idea has, the people who like the whole thing shouldn't be silenced or slapped with a warm for not restating the entire idea but by bit with their approval for each aspect.

 

Which is kinda what it feels like. I'm sure that's not how it's meant. But that's how in feeling.

 

I DON'T always have some kind of strong opinion besides general approval for the whole thing. So I really don't want to have to restate the entire OP and approve of eaj bit just to tell them I like their idea without sounding spammy.

[skauble]

If you actually find something in a suggestion that speaks to you- whether positively or negatively- it shouldn't be a hardship to find a way to express why:

"I like this idea. It is something I think would be helpful/would add an extra dimension to gameplay/etc."

"I don't like this idea. It would make things too easy/hard. It would take away from my enjoyment of the game." or whatever.

 

At least when people enlarge upon their thoughts, you have an idea of whether they understand your concept, and if they misunderstood, you have the opportunity to clarify and make changes to your OP if necessary.

 

It seems like a reasonable expectation to me.

I agree with this.

 

A lot of times I like specific suggestions because I feel that they extend game play. Just that little bit of information shows that, aside from supporting the idea, I have concerns about the game becoming stale if we don't have fresh goals to pursue within reasonable time frames.

 

And, more than that, as a person who's played a long time, my reasoning could be because I've reached X amount of goals or collected X amount of dragons. If a new players said it, it could be because they find the early limits too restrictive. Small comments can often say a lot and they can also lead to important questions to ask.

 

If someone likes an idea enough to want it implemented (which usually takes time and effort to do), a bit of a reason as to why they'd want the site's resources going in that direction doesn't seem too much to ask.

 

Well, if people aren't supposed to post +1s, that means people who just like the whole idea and can't think of anything to add, will not post. Threads with very few posts don't get a lot of attention. A lot of the really well-thought-out ideas out here are also really good ideas for a myriad of reasons, but those reasons don't really get expounded on and from what I've seen, people who have posted really in-depth ideas also took the time to deal with most of the negative aspects of their suggestions so as to please as many people as they could, so they don't get a lot of people challenging their suggestions.

 

So you have a bunch of really good ideas that are getting buried by the curse of inactivity, because

1) supporters can't think of any way to improve the idea,

2) opposition is barely existent if it exists at all, and

3) very little discussion happens because there's so few points to discuss due to OP having detangled most of them before posting in the first place.

 

As it is we already have a lot of people going "I like this for reasons previously stated", which is just a more verbose +1.

 

Maybe part of the problem is the idea that they need to add something innovative to the idea. A lot of times we have suggestions that get to 10 or 15 pages and most people don't want to read all that and so they just give their opinion and reasons without worrying that it's been said before and so they can't say it.

 

Besides, agreeing with what one person posts (+1) doesn't necessary cover why you like the suggestion, it just indicated that you agree with that one thing that person said. In threads like that, a lot of people make individual points that address an aspect of a situation as opposed to the entire concept. Giving that a +1 then ends up also speaking to one aspect.

[KageSora]

And what about times when you can't quite put your finger on WHY you like an idea, or it's honestly just as basic as "I like this because it sounds fun"?

 

That's not exactly a really helpful thing. Especially if you like the ENTIRE idea.

 

So, I guess then that people in that category just shouldn't bother making known that they like it.

[ulki]

And what about times when you can't quite put your finger on WHY you like an idea, or it's honestly just as basic as "I like this because it sounds fun"?

 

That's not exactly a really helpful thing. Especially if you like the ENTIRE idea.

 

So, I guess then that people in that category just shouldn't bother making known that they like it.

Why not just write:

 

"I really like your idea, it sounds like fun. But I'm not sure what part exactly is the best." ?

 

Just write what you think and it should say what you want to express.

Maybe later you see what is actually best or you like most and you can add it later.

[RainDear]

And what about times when you can't quite put your finger on WHY you like an idea, or it's honestly just as basic as "I like this because it sounds fun"?

 

That's not exactly a really helpful thing. Especially if you like the ENTIRE idea.

 

So, I guess then that people in that category just shouldn't bother making known that they like it.

"Because it sounds like fun" is a reason. It at least gives the impression that you read more than the title, and aren't just posting to up your post count.

 

If you have 100 people post "I like it because it sounds like fun." rather than 100 posts of "+1", "Me too", "I like it" at least there is a possibility that those posters read more than the title of the thread or just the post above theirs.

 

I just don't understand why posting a few words about why is stifling. It doesn't deter me from expressing my opinion.

[purpledragonclaw]

I can't speak for others, but there have been times where I've read the OP, and there's nothing specific that I like but I just like the whole. I don't have a lot to say, because I'm not madly in love with the idea, but I have a little fondness for whatever is bein suggested.

 

I'm getting the vibe that people like me should just shut up and stay away rather than voicing general support that we can't really do much elaboration on beyond "I like for reasons already stated", which I honestly still think isn't much better than just "I like this idea" when you like the whole idea.

 

I do this too: I try to find things specifically about a suggestion that I like and mention that in my post, but if it's already been mentioned a lot by other users already, I just say "I like this idea." I know it doesn't look very well-thought-out behind lots of earlier posts that go into detail for why users like ideas, but I don't want to copy-paste a lot of points I agree with just to essentially say the same thing. Typically, even if I support an idea, unless I can think of a reason besides the concept, I don't post.

 

I'm trying to get out of this mentality because I want to add my input to an idea, but sometimes I spend hours trying to think of an appropriate response that hasn't been thought of before, and come up with nothing.

 

Perhaps a solution would be to say "I like this (entire) idea because of previously stated reasons a, b, and c because I think <list your reasons>." That's not a full copy-paste and you could still give your perspective on an idea.

[Zovesta]

I dunno. I wasn't aware people not reading and commenting their support was such a large crisis on this site.

 

I can see both sides of the fence here, but I'm going to have to go and say that "I like this suggestion because of x, y, and z" is just a more detailed way of saying "I like this suggestion because of reasons". You're offering your support for it either way. There will be people who explain why they like it, and there will be people who don't. There will be people who offer suggestions, there will be people who don't. Maybe the suggestion is just that great, they can't think of anything to add, and they just think it's a fun addition.

 

And if "i like this because it's fun" is less spammy than "i like this", which already implies that it would improve the game aka make it funner then i don't even know anymore

 

But yeah. It's not exactly killing creativity, and it's not exactly torture to write up a few sentences as to why you like it, but in the end, I think it's just kind of dumb to actually force people to write up exactly why you like it (which could just as easily be copy and pasted as +1 support). =P

Edited March 26, 2013 by Zovesta