We want Forum Feedback!

[Walker]

Oh, okay. That's good to know. I really have no other ideas, then. Cause the only other option is a public court and that's already been shot down, cause even if you don't accept the idea we have a right to a private warn log like a member, having places where our mistakes are posted undermines what authority we do need to do our job.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Walker

[LadyLyzar]

I am going to keep this brief because I need to leave in a few minutes.

 

Guys, mods ARE held accountable. We are held to a higher standard. If someone is seriously abusing power it will be dealt with.

 

However, we are not going to drag it out into the open and announce it. Period.

 

We do not drag your warns and/or punishments out into the open. No one outside of staff knows you were warned unless you announce it, which I see a lot of happening.

 

As such, we are not going to do the same to each other.

[Nectaris]

I think the issue here is that the mistakes happened with people who aren't here anymore. What are the people still here supposed to do, prostrate themselves in front of you and apologize for someone else' mistake?

 

I haven't seen any of the current mods saying that they don't make mistakes, and have offered options on how to deal with someone who has made one. What more do you want? That is what I am confused about here, you are listing a problem, but I really am not seeing any solutions in your posts.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Nectaris

[Fuzzbucket]

! means "not".

 

!= means "is not equal to" and is the proper way to express "=/=".

== means "is equal to".

 

It's a programmer thing. = is used to assign things to variables, so using it in comparisons makes strange things happen in some languages, and makes the world implode in others.

 

So basically I was trying to succinctly express that you can't just say "they're people" and expect everyone to go "oh okay then" and forget everything they've ever done wrong; when you think "they're people" you should remember to offer understanding, especially when they've had a bad day, but still ask those people to make amends when they mess up. Because assuming mods are mature reasonable people, they don't need white knights to come to their rescue when they're under fire. Which is constantly. Because they're mods and have to tell people they're in trouble and people get mad when they get in trouble.

 

inb4 I get warned for being offtopic :V

no I'm kidding

Thanks !

 

Though why one needs == for is equal, rather than just = ...

 

I gather you have issues with CURRENT mods ? So - report them ?

[Lythiaren]

Firstly? Users need to stop with the "they're people too" apologist crap. But that's not a thing that can be enforced so it's just wishful thinking on my part.

 

Secondly, one of the issues I have had was fairly recent and with an active moderator.

 

Third, if you were interested in solutions, I gave two very simple ones earlier: apologize to whoever they did wrong via PM and reverse any erroneous warns, even if they're expired the gesture would help greatly.

 

There's no way to make mods or ordinary users stop making errors, as we've established, human error is a thing that happens sometimes.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Walker]

Firstly? Users need to stop with the "they're people too" apologist crap.

 

Secondly, one of the issues I have had was fairly recent and with an active moderator.

 

Third, if you were interested in solutions, I gave two very simple ones earlier: apologize to whoever they did wrong via PM and reverse any erroneous warns.

 

There's no way to make mods stop making errors, as we've established, human error is a thing that happens sometimes.

Users are users. We do not ask them to support us; it is their choice. They have as much right to say they agree with us as others who do not.

 

The thing to do is to report it, then. If you don't trust a mod to handle it, then PM the report to TJ and he'll do what he thinks is necessary.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Walker

[Thuban]

I've been reported. I've also had users come to me and tell me I'm out of line. I have been warned, I've had warns lifted. I know when I'm not able to mod fairly, users that I have personal beefs with, I ask other mods to handle, to keep things fair. We discuss things as a group, and when problems are brought to our attention (we/our = chat mods.. forum mods too but im stronger in chat stuff) we immediately discuss them, and make sure all the other chat people are informed.

 

I was told recently I overmod. I fail to see how, because I dont mod things as close to the rules as I could be. However, despite disagreeing, I am slowly changing up my tactics to find a comfortable middle zone where I do my job, but not as strict. I'm trying though, and I'm sure the other mods are reading things and finding their own paths too.

[cfmtfm]

Third, if you were interested in solutions, I gave two very simple ones earlier: apologize to whoever they did wrong via PM and reverse any erroneous warns, even if they're expired the gesture would help greatly.

 

There's no way to make mods or ordinary users stop making errors, as we've established, human error is a thing that happens sometimes.

But this is what already (or should, but I think it does) happens. Users also have the option to PM another mod or even TJ.

 

Mods are now admitting their mistakes. I also second what Nectaris is saying, but I hardly agree with your original 'problem'.

[Nectaris]

Third, if you were interested in solutions, I gave two very simple ones earlier: apologize to whoever they did wrong via PM and reverse any erroneous warns, even if they're expired the gesture would help greatly.

 

The thing is, I haven't seen any mods say that they would not apologize for a mistake. And I hardly consider myself a white knight for the mods, if you looked at my earlier posts you would know that I DO have some issues with the way certain mods are modding. I just think that you are getting carried away repeating stuff that has already pretty much been agreed on by the mods.

[skauble]

I gather you have issues with CURRENT mods ? So - report them ?

Yes, this.

 

If someone is doing a poor job or abusing their authority, all of the communication should be saved and then sent on to a global mod or TJ. Is it sad that a mod might be that much of a problem for a user that the user would have to go to those lengths? Yes. But if it's happening, then that's the best course of action.

 

But I will say that it seems like the majority of this forum manages to go about foruming just fine, without getting warns rained down upon them. So I don't think that avoiding warns is some impossible goal that the mods keep people from accomplishing by being horribly unfair.

 

Idk, maybe some folks are having problems with a single mod and they feel it's personal, in which case, again, that should definitely be reported. But if folks are having problems with lots of mods, while a large part of the members aren't...maybe that's not exactly a problem with the mods.

[Starscream]

I've been reported. I've also had users come to me and tell me I'm out of line. I have been warned, I've had warns lifted. I know when I'm not able to mod fairly, users that I have personal beefs with, I ask other mods to handle, to keep things fair. We discuss things as a group, and when problems are brought to our attention (we/our = chat mods.. forum mods too but im stronger in chat stuff) we immediately discuss them, and make sure all the other chat people are informed.

 

I was told recently I overmod. I fail to see how, because I dont mod things as close to the rules as I could be. However, despite disagreeing, I am slowly changing up my tactics to find a comfortable middle zone where I do my job, but not as strict. I'm trying though, and I'm sure the other mods are reading things and finding their own paths too.

I think all of IRC staff have been reported, (at some point or another) users come to and said we're out of line. addressing bans, reversing them if necessary. Trying to nip problems before they become big problems where feeling be hurt. Discussing with users in pm's about why or what.

 

We (IRC mods/hops)communicate well with each other so we know and are all on the same page about recurrent issues. we do this to try to have at least a common standard.

 

I will, if I have to, Moderate TJ09 if I feel he...how do I say it. If he all caps messages and we tell users not to, I'll usually say "TJ caps."

 

I do not think anywhere there is a perfect world of user/moderator relations where users do not feel "threatened or intimidated" by mods. Same as some people are petrified of police or hate their teachers or principals for stepping in when they step out of line. Natural human feeling to get more aggressive when found in the wrong. Natural feeling to get defensive or protective of themselves.

 

I think I have gone to Thuban with I cannot moderate XXXX user. pleas can you talk to them about (insert situation) I can't mod them fairly.

 

And most importantly. and how to I phrase this clearly.

If there is something spoken between or to moderators, we are not permitted to repeat it to non staff. We violate this rule, we will be in the pit so fast our heads would spin.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Starscream

[Lythiaren]

But this is what already (or should, but I think it does) happens. Users also have the option to PM another mod or even TJ.

Oh I can tell you right now that it doesn't always. That other people (who didn't stay up all night like me) mentioned that their experience was much like I had described, complete with frustrating experiences with disputes, is kind of a sign that it's not happening like it should.

 

The thing is, I haven't seen any mods say that they would not apologize for a mistake.  And I hardly consider myself a white knight for the mods, if you looked at my earlier posts you would know that I DO have some issues with the way certain mods are modding.  I just think that you are getting carried away repeating stuff that has already pretty much been agreed on by the mods.

Interestingly, those who said that they'd apologize readily are the mods that people don't seem to have had huge issues with.

 

The ones people tend to have problems with the most are a subset of those who haven't engaged in the conversation in here in the past month or longer.

 

----

Alas, TJ no longer answers my calls. :V

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[cfmtfm]

Oh I can tell you right now that it doesn't always. That other people (who didn't stay up all night like me) mentioned that their experience was much like I had described, complete with frustrating experiences with disputes, is kind of a sign that it's not happening like it should.

 

 

Interestingly, those who said that they'd apologize readily are the mods that people don't seem to have had huge issues with.

 

The ones people tend to have problems with the most are a subset of those who haven't engaged in the conversation in here in the past month or longer.

Again, I repeat the option of being able to talk to another mod or report to TJ.

 

How do you know that people haven't had issues with the mods who have spoken already? And vice versa. We rarely see things that go on 'behind the scenes'. I don't think it's safe to assume what you have just assumed here.

[Lythiaren]

Again, I repeat the option of being able to talk to another mod or report to TJ.

 

How do you know that people haven't had issues with the mods who have spoken already? And vice versa. We rarely see things that go on 'behind the scenes'. I don't think it's safe to assume what you have just assumed here.

TJ always forgets to answer me. *shrug*

 

But my observation (note the "people tend to") is that if you apologize in public so readily you're already a nice enough person to not be condescending and belittling in your interactions with ordinary users. I don't know if you were there, but when Socky came up and apologized for overdoing it, people started thanking her and also reassuring her that she was not the one who had caused them grief.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Fuzzbucket]

Idk, maybe some folks are having problems with a single mod and they feel it's personal...

Mwahahaha Socky is out to get me:

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6971491

 

Oops I may be OT

[PointOfOrigin]

Warns: Thuban said that she was warned the first time this came up and she repeated it now. So, they do get warned. The problem here, is that most people aren't report happy - I maybe reported other users twice, and both of them were topics that show up every now and then in SD "I has a dragon, will you please trade me" type. And I have a feeling that the rest of the forums aren't that much different from me.

Second, our views on warns seem to differ. The most obvious example would be the Shimmer breeding topic. In my eyes there wasn't any spam there, but mods thought that it was there. As a result, most of the posters there got warns which we consider unfair. So, if a mod posts something that the other mod would warn them for it doesn't mean that it will be reported. Users are much more relaxed about the rules.

 

And finally, I haven't seen any offensive posts from them. We find their modding ways to and warn happy attitude to be the problem. We don't have any tools to report that. Oh yes, we could PM another mod and say it. But the thing is - warns aren't public. As such we can only know about our own warns, and that's not enough ground to accuse somebody (unless you are accusing them of hounding you). As such, the things we find bad can only be discussed openly.

 

But the occasional bad day - as I said once before way up here - I know a GLOBAL elsewhere who banned someone in a fit of rage when they'd had a bad day - yes there was an offence committed but not a bannable one. They came back the next day, reinstated the member and apologised. I am not aware of a mod here who wouldn't do the same.

 

Just because they've apologized it doesn't mean that they've fixed it. A similar situation happened here this Christmas. A person posted in the news thread that they've caught a Holly by shutting off all of the other images. Their scroll got burned and the reinstated once they discovered that they didn't know that it was a bannable offense. And you know what? That person gifted away their Holly and then left the game because they didn't feel secure anymore. Just because somebody apologizes and somewhat fixes their mistake doesn't mean that there aren't any consequences left. That's why we should make sure that situations like that are as rare as they can be.

Edited March 24, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[Princess_Pinkie]

i'm just gonna jump away from the current discussion because i have something kinda unrelated, sorry

 

but i've been seeing a TON of rudeness lately?? especially when people suggest something.. i go through and read the replies and most of what i see is "oh you only suggested this because you want another badge." "you'd probably be a bad person in real life if you did this"

 

like.. wow.

 

i see a ton of rude people on here and i guess it ties into the whole warning thing but i think this community really needs to chill out? i haven't been back to this forum very long as i took a leave of adsence from '09 to about two weeks ago and now everyone is getting their panties in a twist over such small things.

 

i think more than anything this community just needs to realize that we're all just talking about a game here and we need to kinda chill. sure, a lot of you are adults (i'm not as i'm only a teenager) but we're still just playing a game, you guys :c

[Zovesta]

but i've been seeing a TON of rudeness lately?? especially when people suggest something.. i go through and read the replies and most of what i see is "oh you only suggested this because you want another badge." "you'd probably be a bad person in real life if you did this"

That sounds way out of line. Try reporting them? :c I haven't seen anything that bad but I haven't been around much lately.

[PointOfOrigin]

And I find that also weird. People are allowed to accuse others of greed, while even the smallest straying off topic is a varnable offense. It looks like rules are prioritized over the spirit of them.

[skauble]

but i've been seeing a TON of rudeness lately?? especially when people suggest something.. i go through and read the replies and most of what i see is "oh you only suggested this because you want another badge." "you'd probably be a bad person in real life if you did this"

I've noticed this, too, and find it really disturbing - people getting called "greedy" and "selfish" and the like as commentary as who they are as people, not just game play style.

 

I think there are ways for people to say that they believe a suggestion isn't a good one because the goal behind it is to get X and that's not necessarily a positive for the game, without making it about the other person's character.

[Princess_Pinkie]

I've noticed this, too, and find it really disturbing - people getting called "greedy" and "selfish" and the like as commentary as who they are as people, not just game play style.

 

I think there are ways for people to say that they believe a suggestion isn't a good one because the goal behind it is to get X and that's not necessarily a positive for the game, without making it about the other person's character.

seriously :c it's not hard to say "i feel like this suggestion wouldn't have too much use at the moment other than for a badge so maybe you could think of more things to do with it?" rather than "you just want another badge."

 

gosh it's like people forget how to be nice or something.

 

i got a rude PM from someone who doesn't even mod a thread i commented in and i was appalled. i did notify a mod of the thread and they took care of it, though <3

 

i see the words "greedy/selfish" waaaay too often on here..

 

Zovesta-

the replies are a week or so old so i wouldn't report them but i still see it from time to time. i honestly don't want to report anyone because i'm afraid of doing it wrong or getting a warn myself because i messed up or something :c

Edited March 24, 2013 by Princess_Pinkie

[Thuban]

Honestly, in regards to me personally, I would much rather a user let me know directly if I have been out of line. When i know I did something wrong, I gladly work to find a solution to it, and apologize if apologies are needed.

 

A common theme i see between forums and irc is "clearer verbal warns": Im starting to take on a more clear method of differentiating between "warn" and "hey, lets stop before this becomes a problem".

 

I know i tend to be more heavy handed than others, but i mod so infrequently that users only see me when i say something. I openly admit that right now, im not in the best mindset to be modding, so i depend heavily on the other chat mods to let me know if i overreact or undermod. I rely on them to keep me up to date on what our users are doing, and to provide logs for me if something has happened when im not actively watching. I do the same for them (since I tend to lurkbot more than mod these days).

 

I will be back full time in the next week or so, and plan to mod a bit differently "for science". After new mods are in, then we may consider taking a fresh look at the rules to see what needs changed, clarified and updated.

 

Pinkie: dont worry about it. If something bothers you, just make the report, wwrite a quick explination of why it bothers you and forget it. The mods will look into it, and if its not a rule breaker, they will let you know most of the time.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Thuban

[cfmtfm]

TJ always forgets to answer me. *shrug*

Just because you don't have an answer doesn't mean that it's not being discussed or dealt with.

 

Zovesta-

the replies are a week or so old so i wouldn't report them but i still see it from time to time. i honestly don't want to report anyone because i'm afraid of doing it wrong or getting a warn myself because i messed up or something :c

I direct you to this stickied thread - you will never be punished for reporting something that isn't reportable.

 

If you're not sure if something really needs to be addressed or not, go ahead and report it anyway. It's our job to then decide what to do next. Even if we don't end up taking any actions, the report may helps us realize we need to keep an eye on a certain topic or whatnot, and there are absolutely no consequences for you if you report something and we don't do anything about it.

Edited March 24, 2013 by cfmtfm

[Princess_Pinkie]

thank you guys :3

 

i just hope the forum calms down lol

[Vhale]

I've noticed this, too, and find it really disturbing - people getting called "greedy" and "selfish" and the like as commentary as who they are as people, not just game play style.

 

I think there are ways for people to say that they believe a suggestion isn't a good one because the goal behind it is to get X and that's not necessarily a positive for the game, without making it about the other person's character.

Part of the problem with the suggestions forum right now, is people seem to have the idea if they can make one argument against the suggestion, the thread should be closed. Usually that argument is Newbies! And when they don't get it closed via that, it becomes Playstyles! then Prizes! and it doesn't matter if the comparison is logical or not. The end goal of the remarks is not to comment on or improve the suggestion, it's to shut down the thread. And when you get 3-4 people doing it, it's really hard to have a flowing discussion on improving something. Which is why it's being done. The goal is to hamper the suggestion, not improve it.