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[Imbecamiel]

If the user is replying to a specific sprite, then that's not an issue. Therefore, the change is not forcing people to either have concrete critique or not post at all.

 

But just wandering into a thread and saying "do want," you don't even know if they looked at the most recent sprite, or saw the name and first post and decided to comment.

I can understand that, to an extent... but I guess I'm not sure how, if someone comes in and says, "That's looking beautiful" one would necessarily know if they'd looked at the most recent sprite either?

 

ETA: I guess part of my difficulty here is that it's one thing to say, "People should really put some thought into their comments, and it would be nice if they put more effort into making them constructive and helpful." and another thing entirely to then decide "...and there should be a rule to that effect, and if they don't follow it they should be punished." The benefit really doesn't seem to outweigh the cost, both in negative atmosphere and extra work for mods for things that really aren't bothering 99% of people or inhibiting work. Kind of the distinction between guidelines that'd make things a bit nicer for everyone vs. laws-with-consequences that'd make things more intimidating and frustrating for everyone.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Imbecamiel

[Nectaris]

The part of the rule that "+1" posts fall under is:

 

If the user is replying to a specific sprite, then it's not an issue. Therefore, the change is not forcing people to either have concrete critique or not post at all.

 

But just wandering into a thread and saying "do want," you don't even know if they looked at the most recent sprite, or saw the name and first post and decided to comment.

But how many people are going to figure that out? When one form of short posts is discouraged, many would assume that it meant that they all are. Also, I don't see how saying "I support this" is any less replying to a topic than saying "looking good".

[Lythiaren]

Under the new rule, this wouldn't be allowed anywhere. Thus, consistency.

 

Regardless, I think this one instance of how the new spam rule would apply to a specific situation has been debated to death. If anyone has any other critiques of the new rule, I'd like to hear them.

Sure.

 

It soaks up mods' time unnecessarily. Overarching "I like the idea presented in this thread and have nothing new to add at this time"-type posts are not detrimental to and certainly do not discourage discussion. They take nothing away from the discussion and it allows you, the guy taking all these suggestions, to get a more representative sample of how the userbase feels about each suggestion since everyone would be able to voice their thoughts without having to sit there and stare at their keyboards while they think of what to say. It's frustrating to feel forced to repeat each other just to avoid getting warned for something that doesn't disrupt the conversation, and this particular clause would have a negative effect on the forum atmosphere, which is already extremely negative. It stifles feedback because the general feeling would be "if you have nothing to add you're not allowed to talk". And since the general feeling in here lately has been "dude your spam rules are being enforced way too narrowly", I'm kind of perplexed as to why you're making it even narrower.

 

You keep repeating that such posts don't reply to people or give others something to respond to, but... doesn't it? Is it not a response to the idea being presented in the thread? Since the expanded definition says "one or more" of those criteria and "does not respond to anyone and does not give anyone anything to respond to" is one item, does this not make these posts exempt as it does only one but not the other? You probably can't split that one down either, because a lot of the time once a consensus is reached on any given point, the very last post on that point no longer has anything to respond to, and sometimes people have very good points that aren't in response to any particular person. Do we have to point to someone and say "I (dis)agree with Lyth's statement because blah blah"? It seems an oddly tall order for forum interaction, it feels rather like we're expected to act like seasoned debate team veterans. I mean, we're discussing a video game here, I guess I don't understand why our official forum has to be all super srs all the time.

 

You've replaced mods wasting time warning for these things in only one forum with mods wasting time warning for them in every forum. I don't think this allocation of resources is efficient, as it takes mods away from issues that do harm to users and their ability to communicate. That is, I feel that this particular line of text is going to get in the way of mods' ability to moderate.

 

[edited; I had to go digging to find the extended definition that already contained what I was saying WHOOPS]

 

All that aside and moving on to other aspects of the proposed definition, I'm curious as to why those posts consisting entirely of an image will all be categorized as spam. DR has many of those posts going on as people work on their sprites. I can understand that it's probably to prevent people from just posting lemongrabs or superwholock gifs as reaction images (which is perfectly reasonable because this isn't tumblr), but... well, DR has a lot of posts that are just an image with an optional question mark as they do micro-adjustments to sprites. Redlines can happen that way as well. Sometimes people write their post on the image to save space, too. Since your expanded definition states "one or more" of your criteria, such posts would then be technically considered spam when they most definitely are not. If DR is given that explicit exception, then strangely, those types of reaction posts would be technically allowed in there. In addition, some people do sprite stuff in Suggestions as well (eg. the hoarding thread). So either the Suggestions forum becomes cut off from all spritework or people are mysteriously allowed to post image macros in here, too. Which would be kind of really disruptive in both sections if abused. It's a very odd loophole. Most of us in this thread understand the spirit of the rule but those who would break the spirit of the rule have a technicality they can fall back on.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Pokemonfan13]

Lyth, have a specific exception for artists posting their work. Or the person can add a line like "Here's the new drawing, what do you think?"

[Lythiaren]

Why is that extra line even necessary? It's just extraneous padding. It's like why we've been discussing +1 posts for the past several pages; it's not hard, but holy crap it'll get really annoying really fast. Adding content to posts shouldn't feel like a chore, imo. I'm probably the DC forum's epitome of "give people commentary for the love of whatever deity you happen to worship if applicable" but you can't force people to give it freely.

 

I mean DR is probably the entire reason there's an exception for sections where it is explicitly allowed, but allowing people to make posts of only an image in a section without additional provisions just opens a loophole. And then some overzealous reporter or some clever troll (and yeah, really bored/determined trolls would probably draw their own obnoxious reaction images) will probably find a way to annoy people with it while hiding behind a vague provision that wasn't meant to be used for that.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I finally realized what this recent discussion has me feeling. I feel like I've been sent to detention and the rule is 'silence'.

 

TJ you are forcing folk to post repetitive data.. making us feel like we're not allowed to post at all.. and it seems like you would rather have NO suggestions, rather than deal with things we have asked for.

 

The last time I was part of a forum that was this unfriendly, was right before that forum split into several different forums.. because the admin/mod team became a bunch of dictators and were fighting with each other to decide who was in charge. Well, we all know that TJ is in charge here and it seems like he doesn't want us to have suggestions.

 

I think this pretty much sums up the current atmosphere.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Cinnamin Draconna

[whitebaron]

There are forums where you can actively +1 or" give thanks" to a post using the forums sofware.

unless this is implemented in this forum, I can't see how this is gonna work.

 

Especially in SD, many of the current threads (congrats, anyone?) would have to be shutdown immediately. People already fear various parts of the forums for their rule strictness, or simply expect warns. When I go to Suggestions and actively partcipate in any othrr thread than this, I expect 1-2 warns.

 

Also, under this new rule, trading would not be allowed. Trade posts do nit reply to anyone nor do they need a reply by anyone. Even worse with bumps.

 

+1 to Cinnamins Video, btw.

[~!~]

Why not have "+1" type posts just get deleted when the thread's moved along far enough? That doesn't penalize the users for posting them, and it prevents them from going toward their post count.

 

Call me dumb, but I'm in favor of anything that allows people to artificially boost their post count.

 

I don't think this would make too much work for the mods if they kept on active threads. Plus, I don't see why "too much work for the mods" is really an argument. Can't we just increase the number of mods until there are enough to comfortably handle the load?

[Lythiaren]

It's not that it's too much work, it's that it's kind of a waste of mods' time to go warn for (and, in doing so, silence) a bunch of stuff that would otherwise help us gauge the community's opinion on a given suggestion. A mod who spends five minutes wading through a thread warning for all the "I like it!" posts is a mod spending five fewer minutes watching out for encroaching firestorms or doing other modly things that keep users safe. It's just throwing resources at a thing that doesn't need those resources.

 

People who want to post reasons already post their reasons. People who don't have reasons to post in that fashion are cut out. For this reason, the reception of some suggestions may be unfairly skewed because some supporters (and some dissentors!) feel they're not allowed to voice their opinion without having to jump through hoops to earn the right to speak.

 

It just seems backward that in order to get a better idea of what people want, we tell them to shut up unless they have something new to add, in order to force them to find something new to add. That's not really a thing you can force. Cinnamin's right, it sounds like a paradoxical attempt to silence people who just want the game to be more fun.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lythiaren

[LibbyLishly]

*Coughs gently* I don't want to get into the very intense debate that's been going on for the last few pages, because my feedback isn't even remotely related, and I hope that's all right:

 

In the trading forum, the IOU rule is pinned, but under a non-descript topic title of "Notice". I see a lot of folks getting the red mod edits telling them to read the pinned topics. My suggestion is that the title of the pinned topic concerning IOUs be changed to something like, I don't know, "Notice Regarding IOUs". That way, people who are going into the trading forum to post IOUs might notice is more quickly, read it, and eliminate the need for edits. Note: I know that the line underneath the main topic does say "IOU's" [sic], but it's just not as eye-catching that way.

Edited March 29, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[Slaskia]

This is definitely not in line with current discussion, but it is feedback/suggestion.

 

Is there some way to put some kind of indicator to show what you voted for on older polls you voted on? Like an * by it or maybe a different color?

 

I noticed the main 'egg freezing' topic is back up, for instance, but I can't for the life of me remember what I voted for in the poll, let alone if what I 'did' vote for still meshes with my opinion on the subject.

 

Guess this goes back to the inability to change your vote afterword problem as well....

[Fuzzbucket]

This is definitely not in line with current discussion, but it is feedback/suggestion.

 

Is there some way to put some kind of indicator to show what you voted for on older polls you voted on? Like an * by it or maybe a different color?

 

I noticed the main 'egg freezing' topic is back up, for instance, but I can't for the life of me remember what I voted for in the poll, let alone if what I 'did' vote for still meshes with my opinion on the subject.

 

Guess this goes back to the inability to change your vote afterword problem as well....

YES PLEASE ! I was just in a recently revived thread too, and I had voted, and I have no idea which way... I know which way I would vote if I were doing so NOW, and if that were different and we cannot change our minds, I would anyway post that I had changed my mind ...

[Rally Vincent]

Will the Silver Replacement Thread be reopened? It's been closed quite a while now.

[Obscure_Trash]

Yes, and we're frustrated with the slow progress, too. We want to have a mod run thread but at least two of us will be gone for an extended period of time and seemingly all of us are busy right now, so we're trying to work out whatever is best. I am pushing to have the thread open within the next two days, though, because it has been a ridiculously long wait. I do apologize for that, and I really, really appreciate everyone's patience. Sooo sorry it is taking this long. D|

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes, and we're frustrated with the slow progress, too. We want to have a mod run thread but at least two of us will be gone for an extended period of time and seemingly all of us are busy right now, so we're trying to work out whatever is best. I am pushing to have the thread open within the next two days, though, because it has been a ridiculously long wait. I do apologize for that, and I really, really appreciate everyone's patience. Sooo sorry it is taking this long. D|

Darn. I am on the other side, hoping it disappears for EVAH !

[Rally Vincent]

Darn. I am on the other side, hoping it disappears for EVAH !

Fuzz, I am against a replacement, too, but that's hardly a reason to keep the thread shut, is it?

[Fuzzbucket]

Fuzz, I am against a replacement, too, but that's hardly a reason to keep the thread shut, is it?

It's not the thread itself; it is the way it is trying to do too many things at once, which is making it keep going nasty. We get people saying "I don't want this to happen and your sprites are vile anyway." which I feel strongly is a spin off from not wanting it to happen, if you see what I mean. (I had TRIED to say "your sprites are lovely - but just not silvers..." but others are more knee-jerking !)

 

We need one for should this happen and a completely separate one for discussing IF it does, do you like my sprites ?

[DarkEternity]

It's not the thread itself; it is the way it is trying to do too many things at once, which is making it keep going nasty. We get people saying "I don't want this to happen and your sprites are vile anyway." which I feel strongly is a spin off from not wanting it to happen, if you see what I mean. (I had TRIED to say "your sprites are lovely - but just not silvers..." but others are more knee-jerking !)

 

We need one for should this happen and a completely separate one for discussing IF it does, do you like my sprites ?

Yes, can we please, please have a thread specifically for the discussion of potential silver sprites in Dragon Requests?

[Rosedamai]

We need one for should this happen and a completely separate one for discussing IF it does, do you like my sprites ?

One of the things I was thinking about in regards to that thread is that it WOULD be very much more productive to talk about two different things, i.e 1) whether there should be a replacement and 2) if so how many changes should be made and thus which sprite is best

However what I had seen on that thread people who were really against that get convinced by the spriter's sprites. So there seems to be SOME need that these be at least together, like sister threads, because they influence each other.

One of the ways I thought of (please bear with me) to somehow integrate AND separate the thread at the same time was, uh, how about we color-code different topics?

For example, those talking about whether the sprite should be replaced at all automatically writes in blue, those giving sprite crits and such write in red, or maybe we can use different fonts?

Idk.

[Fiona]

How about just link the two topics in the first posts? Direct discussion of the sprites into one, and discussion of whether and how in the second but link them so people can easily jump from one to the other.

[Rosedamai]

How about just link the two topics in the first posts? Direct discussion of the sprites into one, and discussion of whether and how in the second but link them so people can easily jump from one to the other.

That would also work. I'm trying to think of ways to integrate them somehow-the two topics seem to feed off of each other.

[Fuzzbucket]

One of the things I was thinking about in regards to that thread is that it WOULD be very much more productive to talk about two different things, i.e 1) whether there should be a replacement and 2) if so how many changes should be made and thus which sprite is best

However what I had seen on that thread people who were really against that get convinced by the spriter's sprites. So there seems to be SOME need that these be at least together, like sister threads, because they influence each other.

One of the ways I thought of (please bear with me) to somehow integrate AND separate the thread at the same time was, uh, how about we color-code different topics?

For example, those talking about whether the sprite should be replaced at all automatically writes in blue, those giving sprite crits and such write in red, or maybe we can use different fonts?

Idk.

I doubt VERY much that that would stop people spitting at sprites on principle. And yes - I LIKE one set of sprites as such, and have said "if we MUST, those are OK-ISH - but please let's not..." A lot of the commentary is in that vein rather than "ooh, OK I'm convinced..."

 

The other thing is that we need a poll on IF it happens, how different is OK ? and if (as I strongly suspect) they come up in favour of a MINIMAL cleanup/correction of anatomy, the really different ones would be ruled out - that would cut down on a LOT of the sniping.

[Fiona]

It might be more productive to come up with proposed sprites first. Then people can see what the choices are to actually replace the current sprites with, and can vote on which and whether based on seeing what would actually be the replacements.

[Fuzzbucket]

It might be more productive to come up with proposed sprites first. Then people can see what the choices are to actually replace the current sprites with, and can vote on which and whether based on seeing what would actually be the replacements.

But then we get all those REALLY strange ones that aren't a BIT like silvers that (to be blunt) everyone said Bad Idea to....

 

I think I had better stay out of threads about this.

[Fiona]

The ones that are far different from the current are not bad sprites, or bad ideas. They're just different ideas, and as far as I'm concerned have as much right to post their suggestion as any other spriter. As I said, if we concentrate on finishing sprites first, while making sure it's clear that no decision has been made yet whether a replacement will even happen, then once all the sprites are done they can be posted side by side, and people can vote on their preference for which set, still knowing that it isn't even decided yet if a replacement will happen. Once it's narrowed down to one or two preferred sprite sets, then a decision can be made about whether, based on the actual sprites proposed.

 

Whether or not the replacement is a complete replacement, as with the golds, or a partial replacement like the pinks is probably up to TJ. My own thinking is that leaving the old sprites on existing dragons would cause more confusion and drama than a complete replacement. Alts or other dual sprite sets for rares just seems like a bad idea to me. But that's my own opinion. He might have other thinking, based on past experience with replacing the pinks and the golds.