We want Forum Feedback!

[Jennabob]

I've been kind of lurking in this thread, and I agree with the thought that the forum feels hostile to newcomers. Thinking back, one of the most off-putting things is the "no chatting" rule. No chat topics, no off-topic banter.

 

I still find it annoying. Conversations between people naturally meander and change topic. It's hard to keep a discussion going if you have to keep rigidly to a single topic, and even harder to get to know someone here and become comfortable if you feel you can't have a conversation without a warn.

 

While I understand it's needed in news topics and so on, but if the OP is okay with their thread wandering, and there's no flame war going on, what's the harm in allowing chatter?

[~!~]

And yes I know there have been drama llama's in the past about silly things that the artists as a whole should have handled a lot better. And there have been times where forum feedback should have been sought out. The artists and mods all know that, and have therefore started doing that.

I think perhaps it should have been the mods handling that. I don't see why the artists should have any authority over how matters in the forum are run. That doesn't really concern their sector, which has to do with creating new dragon breeds and creating illustrations for other things like the beeg trees, am I right?

 

That's why I said that I was aware of how past projects were handled, including La Femme. I am aware of the problems with that release, but if you also remember, user feedback WAS sought out, and it turned into a flame war.

 

And if you also remember, projects like the Ascended Project, for example, were also out in public for all to see. THAT was moved because it turned into a festival of drama.

 

I was once a regular user too, you know. I still AM a regular user. The only difference between me now and me before is I have SOME input into how SOME events are run.

 

And I'm telling you now; closing down the artist section (which has about as much chance of happening as hell freezing over, by the way) will NOT do any good. It'll just mean there are no surprises, no where for the artists to go when they want to organise things with others, and no more events.

I don't know about Scept, but I understand all this. I think there should be some differentiation between the non-artists whose feedback is appreciated and useful, and the non-artists who turn things into flame wars.

 

I guess what I really want is to be able to contribute something to the site without having to be an artist or a mod. If I'm the only one who feels that way, I'm perfectly fine with things staying the way they are now, but I doubt that I am the only one who feels that way, and if my assumption is correct, I think there should be some changes in how the non-mod, non-artist users are seen. I don't like how I'm lumped into the same category as users who can't take "no" for an answer, who don't read the rules or FAQ, who disrespect everybody, and who mix up "there," they're," and "their."

 

And now for something completely different:

How about a section that the artists aren't allowed to see? Where people can speak bluntly about their opinions of the sprites without hurting anybody's feelings, perhaps? Maybe if a Frill-esque incident were to happen, people could state their opinions without worrying about making things worse. Or perhaps work out how best to ask the artists (or a particular artist) for some favor.

 

And now for something entirely, entirely unrelated:

Shiro Shitoro. Has anybody seen or heard from him any kind of recently? Are there any plans concerning the dragons he's worked on?

 

EDIT:

I've been kind of lurking in this thread, and I agree with the thought that the forum feels hostile to newcomers. Thinking back, one of the most off-putting things is the "no chatting" rule. No chat topics, no off-topic banter.

 

I still find it annoying. Conversations between people naturally meander and change topic. It's hard to keep a discussion going if you have to keep rigidly to a single topic, and even harder to get to know someone here and become comfortable if you feel you can't have a conversation without a warn.

 

While I understand it's needed in news topics and so on, but if the OP is okay with their thread wandering, and there's no flame war going on, what's the harm in allowing chatter?

This times one thousand. I still don't see what the problem with polite off-topic chatter is. I've never been on another forum that cracks down so hard on off-topicness, and frankly it seems kind of dumb to me.

 

EDIT: Long post is looooooooooong.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ~!~

[skinst]

You are wrong. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that things need to be changed. I simply pointed out that closing down the Artist section will do far more harm than good, and will not fix the problems relating to it.

 

And as I have also said, things HAVE improved. And also, there is ALWAYS drama involved around holiday releases, whether you see it or not, because of the way it is done. There were 15 Valentine entries made this year, and only ONE was picked. The amount of resentment, jealousy, disappointment and anger is always there, whether it's subtle or outright.

 

You also seem to think that the Artists are the ones who pick the dragons. That is untrue. TJ is the ONLY ONE who picks the dragons, and the only time I can think of where that hasn't happened was during Mod Madness, where the dragons were chosen via vote.

 

You guys seem to underestimate the amount of influence you have on this site. You have about as much, and more at times, than the artists or even the mods. Popular dragon breeds that are created in public DO get picked for release.

 

How do I know? The Nebula's were one of them.

 

I would not be in cave without the support of everyone on the site that liked my concept. Isn't that substantial enough for you?

 

Yet you seem to have it in your head that the Artist Section is just a place for dramaz and secrets. As I have already pointed out, most of what goes on in there eventually gets released to the public. The big things, such as Locations, was made open to the public for opinions by TJ.

 

The prototype, if you will, was created in the artist section. But the final version will be influenced by you, the users.

 

And what about site poles? This thread? If you guys had so little an influence, then none of the results of those threads would come to pass.

 

The BSA forum is open to the public, now. You guys have the option to choose what breeds of dragons do, create ideas for them, such and so forth.

 

I am telling you, and making it very clear to you right now: Closing down the Artist section WILL NOT solve any remaining problems on this site.

 

And now for something completely different:

How about a section that the artists aren't allowed to see? Where people can speak bluntly about their opinions of the sprites without hurting anybody's feelings, perhaps? Maybe if a Frill-esque incident were to happen, people could state their opinions without worrying about making things worse. Or perhaps work out how best to ask the artists (or a particular artist) for some favor.

 

What would be the point of that? The artists will still need to fix flaws regardless.

Edited December 28, 2010 by skinst

[~!~]

You are wrong. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that things need to be changed. I simply pointed out that closing down the Artist section will do far more harm than good, and will not fix the problems relating to it.

 

And as I have also said, things HAVE improved. And also, there is ALWAYS drama involved around holiday releases, whether you see it or not, because of the way it is done. There were 15 Valentine entries made this year, and only ONE was picked. The amount of resentment, jealousy, disappointment and anger is always there, whether it's subtle or outright.

 

You also seem to think that the Artists are the ones who pick the dragons. That is untrue. TJ is the ONLY ONE who picks the dragons, and the only time I can think of where that hasn't happened was during Mod Madness, where the dragons were chosen via vote.

 

You guys seem to underestimate the amount of influence you have on this site. You have about as much, and more at times, than the artists or even the mods. Popular dragon breeds that are created in public DO get picked for release.

 

How do I know? The Nebula's were one of them.

 

I would not be in cave without the support of everyone on the site that liked my concept. Isn't that substantial enough for you?

 

Yet you seem to have it in your head that the Artist Section is just a place for dramaz and secrets. As I have already pointed out, most of what goes on in there eventually gets released to the public. The big things, such as Locations, was made open to the public for opinions by TJ.

 

The prototype, if you will, was created in the artist section. But the final version will be influenced by you, the users.

 

And what about site poles? This thread? If you guys had so little an influence, then none of the results of those threads would come to pass.

 

The BSA forum is open to the public, now. You guys have the option to choose what breeds of dragons do, create ideas for them, such and so forth.

Wait, wasn't the Pokemon Night thing thought up by the artists? And the leetle trees? Or was that just Kila?

 

I think what Scept is saying is that a private section, although it is not designed to make you guys have more influence, allows things that are suggested there to be seen by a smaller group of people who may dislike it, thus making the idea look more popular.

 

Also, the Dragon Requests section is incredibly closed and unwelcoming. The one time I tried posting on there, everything I tried to suggest got shouted down. Of course, I was probably dead wrong on all counts, but I still felt snubbed and generally avoid that forum because of that attitude.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember Locations being suggested several times in this very forum. Who were the ones who worked out exactly how the Locations would work? Did any artist have any authority over things other than which location a breed they had concieved would be found? And how is anybody supposed to know the answer to this question?

 

Concerning BSAs, none of us have the option to choose what the dragons do. Any BSA for a new breed is subject to vetoing by the artist who concieved the breed. And author artists are also allowed to say that their breed cannot have a BSA. (In fact, I'm not sure if it's only author artists who can do that. For instance, can Lyth veto a BSA for the Vine dragon?)

[Aviatus]

I'll go paragraph by paragraph on this one

 

1. Ok then, I apoligize, then what do you propose we do to fix it?

 

2. Do you have any proof that things have improved, cause it doesn't seem like it, and of course there will be drama behind the scenes I have never denied that, only pointed out that it causes even more drama directly on stage.

 

3. I never said nor do I believe that, quote me saying something to that effect

 

4. Of course they do, but are our voices ever heard on the one made behind the scenes?

 

5. So were the flamingo's ridgewing's skywing's guardian's waterwalker's and so on, I get that we have influence, but we (as a community) don't have a say in anything that goes on behind the scenes

 

6. No

 

7. Again, never said that, quote me please, and again there's that word eventually, no one outside mods or artists had influence primarily.

 

8. "final"

 

9. I never said we have so little influence, I get it, we do help the site keep moving, but with the behind the scenes operations, we have nothing, you on the other hand get both.

 

10. Yeah so do you, and?

 

11. Then what will? You tell me that

 

General: You being very focused on what the community can do, I get that, we have power woo hoo! Yet some have more, and why? Because their art was liked by TJ, and the only way to have that kinda weight, is by being an artist. Skinst, you can point out how much power we have all you like, it doesn't blot out the fact that the role of the artist in DC is stronger than that of the ordinary member.

 

@ ~!~ I agree, perhaps that info isn't it or everyone, but it can't stay the way it is now.

[skinst]

Wait, wasn't the Pokemon Night thing thought up by the artists?  And the leetle trees?  Or was that just Kila?

Pokemon night was IRC members inflicted with boredom.

 

Leetle trees was Kila, idea conceived in IRC.

 

I think what Scept is saying is that a private section, although it is not designed to make you guys have more influence, allows things that are suggested there to be seen by a smaller group of people who may dislike it, thus making the idea look more popular.

 

Uh, no. In the end, if the idea is liked, the public will get their opinions counted too.

 

Also, the Dragon Requests section is incredibly closed and unwelcoming.  The one time I tried posting on there, everything I tried to suggest got shouted down.  Of course, I was probably dead wrong on all counts, but I still felt snubbed and generally avoid that forum because of that attitude.

 

Yup, so did I. And yes, that needs to be dealt with.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember Locations being suggested several times in this very forum.  Who were the ones who worked out exactly how the Locations would work?  Did any artist have any authority over things other than which location a breed they had concieved would be found?  And how is anybody supposed to know the answer to this question?

 

No, the artists did not have influence on how it would work. We merely decided where our dragons would belong.

 

Concerning BSAs, none of us have the option to choose what the dragons do.  Any BSA for a new breed is subject to vetoing by the artist who concieved the breed.  And author artists are also allowed to say that their breed cannot have a BSA.  (In fact, I'm not sure if it's only author artists who can do that.  For instance, can Lyth veto a BSA for the Vine dragon?)

 

But there is nothing stopping you from making suggestions, is there?

 

@Septile - Please actually quote me instead of numbering things, because I have absolutely no idea what half of your post is referring to. I will answer what I can, however.

 

1. Ok then, I apoligize, then what do you propose we do to fix it?

 

First point out what exactly needs to be fixed, other than transparency, which is being worked on already.

 

2. Do you have any proof that things have improved, cause it doesn't seem like it, and of course there will be drama behind the scenes I have never denied that, only pointed out that it causes even more drama directly on stage.

 

La Femme vs Easter.

 

Nuff said.

 

4. Of course they do, but are our voices ever heard on the one made behind the scenes?

 

Please clarify.

 

5. So were the flamingo's ridgewing's skywing's guardian's waterwalker's and so on, I get that we have influence, but we (as a community) don't have a say in anything that goes on behind the scenes

 

And why, exactly, do you feel the need to HAVE a say before the idea is actually created? As I have pointed out, we merely make ideas. You guys are the ones who say yay or nay in the end.

 

9. I never said we have so little influence, I get it, we do help the site keep moving, but with the behind the scenes operations, we have nothing, you on the other hand get both.

 

Yes, you do.

 

General: You being very focused on what the community can do, I get that, we have power woo hoo! Yet some have more, and why? Because their art was liked by TJ, and the only way to have that kinda weight, is by being an artist. Skinst, you can point out how much power we have all you like, it doesn't blot out the fact that the role of the artist in DC is stronger than that of the ordinary member.

 

Artists have power only over their own breed of dragon and that is it. Ask TJ if you don't believe me.

Edited December 29, 2010 by skinst

[Aviatus]

Things are posted in the news section after everything's been finalized, not as a feeler-call, and hardly ever is a site poll created. So once the idea goes to TJ and he gives his blessing it's pretty much done.

[skinst]

Things are posted in the news section after everything's been finalized, not as a feeler-call, and hardly ever is a site poll created. So once the idea goes to TJ and he gives his blessing it's pretty much done.

Wrong.

[dragon_mando]

I think artist forums should stay. If artists have a little extra power beyond the average user, big deal. They earned it, I think, for having produced something awesome enough to get on the site.

 

Just because they're working on something behind-the-scenes doesn't mean it'll get on the site. It's the artists doing something where they want opinions solely from other artists--which has merit. If you wax a car, you don't ask any ol' person's opinion on how you did, you ask for help/crit from someone that's waxed a car before.

 

Not that public projects aren't great, though. I love getting feedback from everyone that'll give it on my projects, as well as giving it myself to others.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I like surprises. Many of us do. Why get rid of our only way of having them? An artists-only section is our way for that and getting rid of it will, to me, just give everything a dose of dull.

 

I like not having any idea what the holiday release will look like. I like having surprises like Easter Baskets. I don't like the idea of all that going away.

[Aviatus]

1. What's wrong is that there is a whole side of site affairs, (dragons, events, BSA's ideas) that a good portion of users here will never be able to influence

 

2. I've already explained why, in glaring detail, holiday releases are much more successful on the main stage than something like the la femme's. You're also trying to compare the release of several scroll altering sprites to eggs, which doesn't compare in the least

 

3. In the artist sections where ideas are tossed around as well as dragon concepts, to be sent to TJ we have no voice, we can't contribute at all

 

4. Why shouldn't we have a say on site altering ideas?

 

5. no we don't we work on nothing behind the scenes.

 

6. I know, but with your section, though the effect wasn't intended, you can get much more done on site, this is probably do to the limited membership and the amount of talent, it acts as a magnifying glass to your ideas and concepts that the rest of us can't contribute to until it's too late

 

7. Really? how?

 

@Mando

 

I don't know, having 50,000 people looking over your work is better than 40, especially when some of those 50,000 are experts in their own right.

 

I agree with you, the holiday releases go fine the way they are handled, no problems there, no need to change anything amirite?

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sceptile100

[skinst]

1. What's wrong is that there is a whole side of site affairs, (dragons, events, BSA's ideas) that a good portion of users here will never be able to influence

Okay, then say every single user had access to what every single event was going to be and take place. Do you honestly think that that would help the functionality of the site?

 

Surprises are surprises for a reason.

 

2. I've already explained why, in glaring detail, holiday releases are much more successful on the main stage than something like the la femme's. You're also trying to compare the release of several scroll altering sprites to eggs, which doesn't compare in the least

 

The only thing I have gotten out of you is that you want information to be more transparent. And that is being worked on. I've read back on your posts and I'm sorry, but I can't find anything else OTHER than that.

 

3. In the artist sections where ideas are tossed around as well as dragon concepts, to be sent to TJ we have no voice, we can't contribute at all

 

And what is stopping you from PM-ing a dragon concept or idea to TJ in private?

 

4. Why shouldn't we have a say on site altering ideas?

5. no we don't we work on nothing behind the scenes.

 

So what? Why do you feel the utter need to have a say in an idea before that idea has even been properly thought about?

 

You guys have a say on completed, well thought out ideas, just like any other game. If you want to go to a site where you're completely shut out, go and look at how GPX is ran! NO ONE gets a say in ANYTHING. Everything just happens whether users want it or not. That is not how it's done here and if you can't see that, then go back and look at how Teleport was modified due to user opinion!

 

6. I know, but with your section, though the effect wasn't intended, you can get much more done on site, this is probably do to the limited membership and the amount of talent, it acts as a magnifying glass to your ideas and concepts that the rest of us can't contribute to until it's too late

 

And that is a bad thing WHY? You guys still get a say in what goes on. See above about Teleport.

[Aviatus]

1. So instead of making universal access give it a limited access, but at least open it up to users beyond the mod/artist description I think it would be better for the site if a majority of things were conceived, debated, and executed in public. But yes secrets are secrets for a reason and some secrets should be kept, others, not so much.

 

2. I want to be able to contribute more towards the site without being an artists or waiting years for a mod opening, the same as ~!~, but please respond to the original point and make a more valid comparison or state that you don't have one.

 

3. So he can what? Bring it to the artist board to be worked on out of my sight? No.

 

4. So we can help formulate them out. Why can't we help formulate these ideas out, why should we wait to try and edit nearly complete or complete ones?

 

5. Teleport was debated long and hard before it ever went into secret, better example please.

[Starbit]

Why would TJ do that? If anything, he would tell you to take it to Dragon Requests.

[skinst]

@Sceptile100 I told you to quote things I say, please. Because otherwise I am just going to not answer things or miss things, mkay?

 

1. So instead of making universal access give it a limited access, but at least open it up to users beyond the mod/artist description I think it would be better for the site if a majority of things were conceived, debated, and executed in public. But yes secrets are secrets for a reason and some secrets should be kept, others, not so much.

 

I am not even going to comment on this, because I have tried to tell you that you do get a say, but clearly you are convinced that you don't. So I am not even going to bother.

 

I want to be able to contribute more towards the site without being an artists or waiting years for a mod opening, the same as ~!~, but please respond to the original point and make a more valid comparison or state that you don't have one.

 

Here's how you do that: You make a thread here in suggestions with your grand idea and get opinions. THAT is how you can contribute.

 

You're also trying to compare the release of several scroll altering sprites to eggs, which doesn't compare in the least

 

I missed this. It actually does compare, because it is a hell of a lot harder trying to organise say 20 something people and their art rather than one person creating a dragon (possibly with one or two others).

 

So he can what? Bring it to the artist board to be worked on out of my sight? No.

Why would TJ do that? If anything, he would tell you to take it to Dragon Requests.

 

You asked, I gave you an option, Star answered.

 

4. So we can help formulate them out. Why can't we help formulate these ideas out, why should we wait to try and edit nearly complete or complete ones?

 

Too many cooks spoil the soup, for a short answer.

 

Long answer? If you have such a massive problem with an idea, then bring it up in the News thread. Or PM a mod about it. Ever considered that?

 

5. Teleport was debated long and hard before it ever went into secret, better example please.

 

Teleport was concieved in the Artist section, as were a number of other BSA's.

 

[TJ09]

Wait, wasn't the Pokemon Night thing thought up by the artists?  And the leetle trees?  Or was that just Kila?

Both Pokemon Night and Leetle Trees had nothing to do specifically with artists or mods. Both were lulz-events thought up in, planned in, and executed from the IRC chat, which consists of a mix of members, mods, and artists and is open to the public.

I'm also much more likely to hop on IRC and ask a random question about a potential feature than I am to post about it in the artist's section.

 

Teleport was concieved in the Artist section, as were a number of other BSA's.

Eh? Teleport was conceived in the BSA thread. And in fact, nothing about it was planned in the artist section. It may have been developed "in secret," but it was developed "in secret" by myself.

[olympe]

Popping my head in here:

 

Generally, I don't think the artists' section needs to be removed. Many great dragons have come from there - like our special releases or the trios, blunas and shallow waters. (At least I don't remember trios ever being on the completed list.) Plus, the fun events sure are a nice surprise time and again, and it might have spoilt some of the fun if they had been discussed in advance.

 

Still, there are some things that are upsetting. More than once has it happened that a new breed was suggested in the DR section, and some site artist was trying to get it to stop because (s)he was working on something very similar. The situation turned very hostile, with the site artist demanding that the dragon concept had to be changed to be more different from his/her own project, but at the same time refusing to tell the OP of said concept what exactly to avoid. (My project is secret and remains secret, and you have to change yours NAO so it doesn't resemble mine.) That's what makes me dislike the secret projects.

 

Or, this very week, someone suggested to make more vampire sprites for the various kinds of dragons - which is already being worked on. True enough, people were getting ahead of themselves in their enthusiasm and started sketching without asking first, but even this situation could have been avoided if the project itself wasn't kept secret. (After all, many people already knew about it due to the original suggestion, and, yes, I know the project is not in the artists' section. Still, making it public would have been able to defuse the situation before it even arose. And the situation turned pretty nasty within a few pages.)

 

And, although nobody ever stops us from making suggestions, it's pretty disheartening to see suggestions shot down repeatedly, especially if drama ensues.

 

Also, it feels like most suggestions get shot down anyway. Just look at the BSA subforum. Even BSA suggestions that are widely accepted and get lots of positive feedback don't ever get a mention by the powers that be that they will be implemented. (I mean, how long did it take for the announcement that two of the most popular suggestions, fertility and teleport, would be implemented eventually?)

 

Another issue is that not everything seems to be friendly behind the scenes - or why did several mods step back in the last few months? (Yes, I read Kila's resignation notice.) Not that the general user notices any of it, but it's still not a good way to go about running a forum, and loosing popular and capable mods and artists doesn't help the forum any.

 

On another note, I'm completely for quickly closing topics like the current topic on snow angels vs. ribbon dancer because they can so easily disintegrate into drama wars on how one sprite is not liked enough. The possible consequences - loosing certain sprites or even an artist with all his art - are just too dire to let things like that run wild.

[Marrionetta]

I'm sorry you seem to feel like you're not getting the say in things that you feel you should be. Be that as it may, the process with which I create my art isn't your domain, nor do you have the inherent right to direct those processes, nor do I owe it to you to allow you the right to see it.

 

As attached to DC as you are, you aren't owed a place of authority over the sprites or events. This is TJ's site, and the art belongs to its respective creators. As a player you are valuable. Without players the game ceases to have purpose or meaning. We need players very much, and it's wonderful being able to share our art with other people. That being said, just because you're a very special and very important group of people doesn't mean you are owed control over all or any aspect of the site. The site artists get opportunities to voice input in arenas that are relevant to our rights over our art, that is, events that are dependent on the images we create. It stops there.

 

Player input is welcomed in arenas that directly concern and effect players. The artists have no more say in breeding, features, actions and other game content than any other player. It doesn't concern our contributions very directly, therefore it falls outside our purview of conduct.

 

I'm not sure why you're so venomous toward artists. :/ We need a space to work on surprises that is not inundated with criticism. We get a fairly representative mix of views, and enough criticism in the artist's section to work out most errors on sprites that are going to be used on site. The quality of art on site continues to meet a pretty high standard.

 

Also, I dislike the requests board for the exact same reasons a lot of users have posted. It is closed, cutthroat, and cliquish. You can see why the artists appreciate having a haven to work within, correct?

[Angziety]

Hum well.

 

For contruibuting it hasb been said secrets are secret for a reason and to many cooks spoil the soup + there has been several instances in the past ofstuff that never gets done because the pubilc depates all the little details never agreeing.

 

For the accual dragons well.

 

Dragon requests is not to active. Not an over abundance of usefull godd crit that I see there.

Don't get my wrong there is some good stuff. If you shift threw 5 pages of bumps and "I like this"

 

Also whe working on a dragon there are things that will not change.

Say I have a wing pattern on a dragon I love and a few people do too. Yet these two people over here hate it.

I would not change it. For thats the way I designed the dragon and they're will always be a few haters.

 

So I honestly dont think that there would be much contributing going on for artist section dragons.

 

 

@olyme: One artist does not represent the whole.

We are all individuals who think and react diffrently.

If an artists flips out and breaks the rules they will be wrned like anyone else.

Cause thats what we are. Users.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Angziety

[skinst]

Eh? Teleport was conceived in the BSA thread. And in fact, nothing about it was planned in the artist section. It may have been developed "in secret," but it was developed "in secret" by myself.

 

Ah, sorry, mixed that up. >_<

 

Still, there are some things that are upsetting. More than once has it happened that a new breed was suggested in the DR section, and some site artist was trying to get it to stop because (s)he was working on something very similar. The situation turned very hostile, with the site artist demanding that the dragon concept had to be changed to be more different from his/her own project, but at the same time refusing to tell the OP of said concept what exactly to avoid. (My project is secret and remains secret, and you have to change yours NAO so it doesn't resemble mine.) That's what makes me dislike the secret projects.

And that rule has since been removed due to the very reasons you state.

 

Or, this very week, someone suggested to make more vampire sprites for the various kinds of dragons - which is already being worked on. True enough, people were getting ahead of themselves in their enthusiasm and started sketching without asking first, but even this situation could have been avoided if the project itself wasn't kept secret. (After all, many people already knew about it due to the original suggestion, and, yes, I know the project is not in the artists' section. Still, making it public would have been able to defuse the situation before it even arose. And the situation turned pretty nasty within a few pages.)

 

I didn't see that, but considering there is no duplicate rule anymore, I'm not sure how those complaining about the concept being there would have been valid. :S *confused*

Edited December 29, 2010 by skinst

[dragon_mando]

I didn't see that, but considering there is no duplicate rule anymore, I'm not sure how those complaining about the concept being there would have been valid. :S *confused*

In this case I don't think the drama was due to the concept being a dupe, but because it would affect a current in-cave breed and the artists had not been asked for permission before people started spriting off their work. Which, honestly, the topic itself isn't an issue, it's the way it was handled. Momo and Kurai should have been asked before artwork was done, but I don't see how this is a valid anti-artists-section argument.

[skinst]

In this case I don't think the drama was due to the concept being a dupe, but because it would affect a current in-cave breed and the artists had not been asked for permission before people started spriting off their work. Which, honestly, the topic itself isn't an issue, it's the way it was handled. Momo and Kurai should have been asked before artwork was done, but I don't see how this is a valid anti-artists-section argument.

Ooooh, that makes sense. I remember a thread similar forever and a day ago... where someone wanted to make pygmy vampires or something.

[Aviatus]

@Sceptile100 I told you to quote things I say, please. Because otherwise I am just going to not answer things or miss things, mkay?

Sorry will do that

 

I am not even going to comment on this, because I have tried to tell you that you do get a say, but clearly you are convinced that you don't. So I am not even going to bother.

 

*headdesk* You're still missing my point, yes, we have a say, but we don't have a say on the other half, the second side of site affairs I keep mentioning, I've never said we don't have a say, just that we only have a partial say

 

Here's how you do that: You make a thread here in suggestions with your grand idea and get opinions. THAT is how you can contribute.

 

So you guy's can't just stick to that why? I would be fine with this if that's what all the artists did

 

I missed this. It actually does compare, because it is a hell of a lot harder trying to organise say 20 something people and their art rather than one person creating a dragon (possibly with one or two others).

 

With behind the scenes drama yes, changes for the rest of us? Not a comparison in the least

 

Too many cooks spoil the soup, for a short answer.

 

Long answer? If you have such a massive problem with an idea, then bring it up in the News thread. Or PM a mod about it. Ever considered that?

 

Please, I would be one voice, against an almost finished project, if someone comes into a completed dragon request and says "I don't like this" He'll be quickly ignored despite his reasons.

 

Teleport was concieved in the Artist section, as were a number of other BSA's.

 

Addressed by TJ

 

So I honestly dont think that there would be much contributing going on for artist section dragons.

 

What if, using your example, you had a shaky idea or wing patterns, and someone else came up with a great one? Non-artists can do that too.

 

I'm sorry you seem to feel like you're not getting the say in things that you feel you should be. Be that as it may, the process with which I create my art isn't your domain, nor do you have the inherent right to direct those processes, nor do I owe it to you to allow you the right to see it.

 

You're right, you owe me nothing, however I think it's fair to the community as a whole to be able to at least have a decent sized consensus of all types of users on what is affecting everyone

 

As attached to DC as you are, you aren't owed a place of authority over the sprites or events. This is TJ's site, and the art belongs to its respective creators. As a player you are valuable. Without players the game ceases to have purpose or meaning. We need players very much, and it's wonderful being able to share our art with other people. That being said, just because you're a very special and very important group of people doesn't mean you are owed control over all or any aspect of the site. The site artists get opportunities to voice input in arenas that are relevant to our rights over our art, that is, events that are dependent on the images we create. It stops there.

 

We are all entitled a relative place of authority, as soon as we sign up we have the right to crit, vote, and speak our minds within the rules. You are also right in the fact that TJ owes us nothing, however he gives us a lot, and he allows all of us to influence the site's affairs. However because that section act as a magnifying glass (explained earlier) it gives that section, and thus artists, more weight.

 

Player input is welcomed in arenas that directly concern and effect players. The artists have no more say in breeding, features, actions and other game content than any other player. It doesn't concern our contributions very directly, therefore it falls outside our purview of conduct.

 

All aspects of the game directly concern and effect players,

 

I'm not sure why you're so venomous toward artists. :/ We need a space to work on surprises that is not inundated with criticism. We get a fairly representative mix of views, and enough criticism in the artist's section to work out most errors on sprites that are going to be used on site. The quality of art on site continues to meet a pretty high standard.

 

I'm not that venomous ^^; sorry if I appear that way this is an issue I've been waiting to bring up for quite some time, just a bit empassioned is all. I love you guys and appreciate everything you do for DC, but I just don't think this is right.

 

Also, I dislike the requests board for the exact same reasons a lot of users have posted. It is closed, cutthroat, and cliquish. You can see why the artists appreciate having a haven to work within, correct?

 

I totally understand, but can you see how the board closes off everyone else, and in its own way is kinda cliquish? I wouldn't mind it keep open, as long as a bigger pool was allowed in to help crit and circulate thoughts.

 

I'm also much more likely to hop on IRC and ask a random question about a potential feature than I am to post about it behind closed doors.

 

I love that and would love that that kind of freeflowing thoughts be present here on the forum.

 

EDIT: long post is looooooooong

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sceptile100

[crazywargod]

I think in GD we need to be a little more cautious before we label someone a troll. When an incident happens like the one yesterday it'd be safe to say "Yeah, don't bother the guy is a troll."

But when someone comes in with a different view, no matter how irritating it may be, we need to be careful that maybe they are serious at the comment, and they can be quite offended at it, which presents a problem.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else at getting frustrated with people in debates, but if it's seriously gotten to the point where I'm about to throw a brick through my screen, I tend to just step away from the computer.

 

There's nothing wrong with intense debate, it's what makes this place fun, but we just need to be cautious before we label someone as a troll.

 

/2 cents

This also happens in every area of the forum. Be it multimedia and its subforums or video games and its subforums, if your opinion doesn't match the majority your labeled a troll. If they can't change your mind your a troll. The possibility that your opinions, truthfully, typically don't match the majority is impossible; You must just be trying to argue so your're a troll. There's a belief that if you can't talk knowledgeable in a debate you shouldn't debate, and if you do your just being a troll.

 

 

This is an occurrence throughout the forums.

 

 

Do I believe troll is used to often in these forums? Absolutely.

[~!~]

I'd like to put in a question here. If, for instance, I wanted to make a Pygmy Vampire, could I make my own sprite from scratch without permission of the artists of the Pygmy or the Vampire?

 

Also, I think contributing artwork to the site shouldn't be what separates the users whose opinions are taken into account when making big decisions regarding the site from the users who are just along for the ride. I have been pretty much turned around concerning the artists forum, but I still think there should be a place where users deemed "mature enough" can talk about things without fear of causing drama or flamewars breaking out.

[skinst]

Sorry will do that

Thank you.

 

*headdesk* You're still missing my point, yes, we have a say, but we don't have a say on the other half, the second side of site affairs I keep mentioning, I've never said we don't have a say, just that we only have a partial say

 

And you are completely missing mine.

 

So you guy's can't just stick to that why? I would be fine with this if that's what all the artists did

 

Surprises are surprises, and too many cooks spoil the soup. Already addressed.

 

With behind the scenes drama yes, changes for the rest of us? Not a comparison in the least

 

Would you rather the drama be out in public like it was when Dove tried to have all her sprites removed? :|

 

Please, I would be one voice, against an almost finished project, if someone comes into a completed dragon request and says "I don't like this" He'll be quickly ignored despite his reasons.

 

On the contrary, I have seen completed dragons be completely revamped because of that 'one voice.'