We want Forum Feedback!

[Komodo Gallant]

In my experience, the artist's section was a useful resource for TJ that allowed projects like the neglected replacement and guardians of nature to be handled quickly, and confidentially. Art needed for special events could be made in a comfortable setting, that didn't require every member to be online and available to chat in order to keep up working on it. Before there was an artist's section, there was an off-site forum I went on where the vampires and yulebucks were made as well, mostly because forums are good for making art collaboratively :3

 

For somebody who doesn't have access to the artist's section, it's strange that you can form such an extensive opinion about what goes on there D: It's mostly talking about cats and drawing.

 

In the end it's TJ who gets the final say on art in any respects.

[~!~]

Would you rather the drama be out in public like it was when Dove tried to have all her sprites removed? :|

I just want to say that I think my idea might alleviate some of this. Whether or not a user is part of the group that can access the "mature people only" forum could be completely dynamic, and anybody causing drama over something posted there could be immediately demoted.

 

Scept, I think what skinst is trying to say is the artist section isn't as big a deal as you think it is. Since neither you nor I can actually see it, I say we should take her word for it.

 

I've got another idea for some more transparency. Perhaps once a thing like the La Femme thing is put into place, the thread concerning it is locked but moved to the public sector, so everybody can see the process by which it came about. That way, the artist forum would still be hidden, but the rest of us would have a much better idea of what sort of stuff goes on in there.

 

EDIT: @Komodo: Sounds like you guys need Z to come and whip that section into shape. Talking about cats? Blasphemy.

Edited December 29, 2010 by ~!~

[Outer Space]

So, what is the point of the discussion? Like should artists section be removed, or should other members have any form of access into? Can anyone, please, explain, I'm kinda lost with tons of arguments from both sides.

 

Actually, as an ordinary member, I want to admit, that I don't want access to the artists section. Spriters do awesome work for the site and the whole community, and I don't want to disturb and interrupt them with my noobish comments. I can completely understand their point: I'm a writer and a journalist myself, and most of all I hate when random people disturb me when I'm working on the text, and give me useless comments I don't need, however I'm glad to discuss the text with other journalists and share some ideas. I guess, that most of members would rather post rubbish in an artist section, than really be helpful for artists. Also, if we have a good idea, suggestion on event, or designed our own concept or sprite, we have Suggestions/Requests, we have Dragon Requests, and we can always pm either mod, or an artist, or T.J. himself.

 

What about removing artist section at all, I guess it's just mean and rude to suggest. Those guys have their own well organised community, and they provide us with the awesome stuff we all love and admire. They have their own section, where they can discuss concepts and sprites, ideas and suggestions; they got used to it, and have all the rights to have their very own little board. And what? - now members come and say: "it's unfair, let's close them, they're not special"? Sounds absolutely crazy to me...

 

EDIT: And yes, I don't think everything in this life should be transparent. Why in the first place? It's not like to know how our taxes are used, we pay zero for this game, so why do we have any rights to know how artists/mods/TJ work? Can't get it.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Outer Space

[skinst]

I just want to say that I think my idea might alleviate some of this. Whether or not a user is part of the group that can access the "mature people only" forum could be completely dynamic, and anybody causing drama over something posted there could be immediately demoted.

Sounds fine by me. ^^;

 

Scept, I think what skinst is trying to say is the artist section isn't as big a deal as you think it is.  Since neither you nor I can actually see it, I say we should take her word for it.

 

Word.

 

I've got another idea for some more transparency.  Perhaps once a thing like the La Femme thing is put into place, the thread concerning it is locked but moved to the public sector, so everybody can see the process by which it came about.  That way, the artist forum would still be hidden, but the rest of us would have a much better idea of what sort of stuff goes on in there.

 

I personally don't mind this.

[dragon_mando]

I've got another idea for some more transparency. Perhaps once a thing like the La Femme thing is put into place, the thread concerning it is locked but moved to the public sector, so everybody can see the process by which it came about. That way, the artist forum would still be hidden, but the rest of us would have a much better idea of what sort of stuff goes on in there.

That, actually would be very cool. I'd love to be able to see the process of how things are designed even if it's already done and gone. It would also provide a reliable resource for things like the DC History thread to base info off of to make entries more dynamic.

[Aviatus]

Alright then, I think we can come to an agreement, I do like ~!~'s idea, and it does allow for a broader group to be heard

[crazywargod]

Seeing as the current discussion at hand is artists private headquarters.

 

My idea is keep it private but maybe let some non-artists, those with a fairly good record in the overall forums, in. By fairly good I don't mean go by warns because, as my dad used to say; happens. Go by how they normally are by reading a few posts in threads they've posted in.

I suggest this because artists are NOT the only ones qualified to critique art.

 

 

As for getting rid of it, no. I don't see what the fuss is. I never even knew about it until this thread so...

 

 

EDIT:Fast convorsation is too fast for me O.o Ignore stupid idea.

Edited December 29, 2010 by crazywargod

[~!~]

Just call me Henry Clay.

[Aviatus]

I do have a question, how would members be decided?

[crazywargod]

I do have a question, how would members be decided?

I don't know. It was a idea that came randomly. Possibly recommendations or something of the sort?

 

It's a bad idea.

[Amur_Rama]

Couldn't every just see the artist's forum, but no one but artists would be able to post in it? That's total transparency there, without any drama coming from people not in that group to bombard threads with useless "Likes"/"This dragon is awesome"/"Those wings suck." posts? The artists would be the only ones who could post and discuss stuff there. We could just watch. Like the way you can read a locked topic now.

[Outer Space]

...still can't believe what transparency members are talking about (see my post on the previous page). Looks like not all the members share this idea, or am I the only one here with such opinion?

[skinst]

Couldn't every just see the artist's forum, but no one but artists would be able to post in it? That's total transparency there, without any drama coming from people not in that group to bombard threads with useless "Likes"/"This dragon is awesome"/"Those wings suck." posts? The artists would be the only ones who could post and discuss stuff there. We could just watch. Like the way you can read a locked topic now.

Surprises = ruined.

 

So no.

[Aviatus]

Also any drama would then be moved to PM, which would just make it tougher on the mods

[~!~]

...still can't believe what transparency members are talking about (see my post on the previous page). Looks like not all the members share this idea, or am I the only one here with such opinion?

What, you can't believe that people have decided not to hear what you say and automatically agree to it, drop the subject, and never speak of it again?

 

I'm pretty sure you and I, at least, have the same attitude about things. Nobody wants to bother people and slow things down, and nobody wants to let other people do that. The question is not of a user's right to "disturb and interrupt" the artists with our "noobish comments," or "give them useless comments they don't need." Nobody wants to "post rubbish in an artist section." In order to do that, or to "really be helpful," we'd need access to the artist forum either way, so it's not a question of helpfulness or unhelpfulness.

 

Also, I think very few of us still want to nix the artist forum completely. I, for one, have offered a bunch of ideas on alternative ways to increase transparency without messing up the artists' collective mojo. The reason I initially was for getting rid of it was because I thought it perpetrated a divide between the artists and everybody else that polarized the community, but I see now that that isn't the case.

 

We want transparency because this isn't GPXplus, and this isn't UniCreatures. GPXplus uses copyrighted artwork. On UniCreatures, every time you submit work to the site you lose the rights to it. Dragon Cave has a unique environment where you get to keep any work you contribute to the site, and it needs to be handled delicately.

 

Yes, we don't pay for Dragon Cave. I don't understand why this makes any difference. If DC were a pay site, what right would we have to complain about it any more than we already do? Couldn't we just take our business elsewhere in both cases? I don't think we have a "right" to know anything about the site, but I think it would be better that way. You'll notice that everybody who has posted on this forum so far uses and enjoys the site just the way it is, and I'm pretty sure I, at least, am satisfied with how the site is run at the moment, and will continue to use the site as long as it doesn't change for the worse. I, and everybody else here, is just suggesting ways it could change for the better.

 

EDIT:

I also think there should be writers, who make breed descriptions and things like that.

 

For instance:

Water walkers are small dragons that are frequently found around bogs and ponds. While they are flightless, they retain the flight sacs and hollow bones of their airborne cousins. These traits, coupled with their extraordinarily long, webbed toes, allow them to stand on top of calm waters, using their small sails to propel them wherever they please. They spend the majority of their lives on the water, retreating to the tops of lily pads when the waters become too rough to float atop.

This is pretty well written. It's clear, it's comprehensive, and it hasn't got any grammar or spelling errors (unless you count ending a sentence with a preopsition). However, I wouldn't say that the quality of the writing is comparable in the slightest to the quality of the artwork. And who's to say we should just describe the breed? This is an RPG, not a textbook. How about something more like this:

 

On the scroll is a small sketch of a dragon with long, skinny legs and large webbed feet.  You carry the scroll to a bog, and stop just short of being seen by a dragon the size of a tall horse (how small is small?), an exact replica of the sketch on the scroll.  It stands at the muddy edge of the water, [doing something Waterwalkers do].  As you sit as quietly as you can among some cattails, you watch the dragon walk out toward the pond, and are shocked as instead of wading into the water, it stands on top of it.  Astonished, you look back down at the scroll and see a few details written there.  "Flight sacs" and "hollow bones" are written there.  The dragon you are watching has very small wings, and you doubt it can fly, but if it shares the internal characteristics of its airborne cousins, it's no surprise that it can stand on the surface of the water.  As you watch the dragon, it moves the tiny wings on its back to catch a passing breeze, and it is blown surprisingly quickly towards the middle of the pond, where it [does something else Waterwalkers do].  You sit in the reeds and watch the dragon until the wind picks up, and the dragon stumbles, unable to stay afloat on the rougher waters.  It retreats to the edge of the pond, where it stands instead on floating lily pads, and continues to [do whatever it was doing].

Thoughts? I'm not nominating myself to do the writing for the site, or anything, I'm just giving an example. This is a first draft, a bit on the long side and not particularly organized, but I think I would prefer descriptions such as this for breeds and for dragons in general. (I also think this should be an acceptable format for user descriptions.)

Edited December 29, 2010 by ~!~

[Marrionetta]

I do have a question, how would members be decided?

Back this train wreck right up, hun.

 

I'm not okay with being a fish in a bowl. The sheltered artist section was created as a good place to work and escape a lot of harassment and the relentless kind of criticism that comes from working in a space open to everyone. I would feel really weird posting in a subforum that was visible to lots of people but that had restricted posting access. It feels weird and voyeuristic. I would probably just stop working on sprites at all if it came to that. (Not that I've done a whole lot of spriting as of late, but my point still stands.)

 

Keep in mind that the majority of activity in the artist's subforum is social. Not DC-related in the slightest. Lately it's been a heck of a lot of posts in the social thread concerning pet deaths. (Send your best wishes to Dis, Earthgirl, JaziandCo, Kuraianubis, and Starscream, who all lost beloved pets recently.) Also, a lot of what's posted there should remain private and among friends. We're a pretty close group, and because of that we have an expectation of confidentiality and a culture of openness you don't have on the larger forum. It would be far to intrusive to invite you all in.

 

If those of you who aren't site artists would like a space work in that offers a more controlled flow of criticism, or participate in creation of your own events or special sprites, I would suggest setting up a forum off site, or starting an MSN chat or an IRC channel. You will see how quickly those task-oriented groups mutate into social groups that have their own cultures and quirks. That's kind of what we have going on in the artists' subforum.

 

As for the magnifying glass effect you've mentioned, uhhh. Well, we don't make a whole lot of suggestions that fall outside our function. Easter egg hunt, creating female sprites for the dragon breeds, christmas tree decorating? Pretty pictures. That's what we're here for. So our suggestions may be more readily heard, but we try to keep our suggestions linked to art.

 

Yes, there is a definite line between me as a DC contributor and you as a DC user. We are both community members, we both have value, and neither of us is better than the other. As an artist, though remember artists are not staff officially, I'm privvy to things you are not. I know you might not like it, but a popular vote in this thread doesn't change the responsibilities I have. These responsibilities also afford me certain privileges, like access to a sheltered spriting environment. I have a job to do. Let me do it in peace.

[skinst]

@~!~ - Actually, there was an idea discussed with USERS (not just artists, and capitalising such to make sure others know this, not specifically you, Nin ^^ about that, but it was eventually decided upon that having a sub section or secret section devoted to the writers of DC was a bad idea. The conversation was a circular movement of:

 

Person 1: Yays description/writing/concept secret area!

Person 2: But you will need an artist eventually.

Person 1: So let us into the artist section.

Person 2: But you're not an artist.

Person 1: So what should we do?

 

*Insert trying to make idea work and failing miserably*

 

Person 2: Don't fix what ain't broken?

Person 1: I think so.

 

And agreed with Marri. I would feel extremely uncomfortable having that particular part of the section open for brown nosing.

[~!~]

I wasn't thinking they'd have their own subforum, just that they'd exist and be called upon to contribute their own talents, like the artists are called upon to do art.

 

Although, now that I think about it, people appreciate pretty pictures a lot more than walls of text.

[skinst]

Well, a lot of the artists DO have lots of ideas about their dragons that aren't covered in the description. Just yesterday I had someone ask me for more detailed information about the Nebula's, which I was happy to provide.

 

I'm sure if you wanted material for RPG related things, most artists would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

 

(and sorry for the misunderstanding. Still a bit frazzled. >< )

[darkshadow5392]

I wasn't thinking they'd have their own subforum, just that they'd exist and be called upon to contribute their own talents, like the artists are called upon to do art.

 

Although, now that I think about it, people appreciate pretty pictures a lot more than walls of text.

actually, i remember awhile ago a lot of members requesting more information on the breeds....so maybe some more detailed descriptions would be highly appreciated

it would also limit the arguements against why a specific breed can/can't do a BSA

during the BSA thread i remember the common questions were "why can't skywings fly eggs around?" "why can't daydreams do put people to sleep/make them forget something"

and then users and artists would reply "hollow bones" "don't have that ability" ect

 

while some people prefer the pictures over a wall of text, i think a larger number of people would love being able to learn about all the details the artist thought about while making them

 

as for the artist subforum, i have many friends who are artists and i know a bunch of them prefer to work on their own projects or with a close group of trusted friends

so while i would love to be able to help in anyway possible in there (i'm such a requests stalker ), i can understand why it should remain how it is or change only in ways that the artists believe is productive for them

Edited December 29, 2010 by darkshadow5392

[skauble]

We are all entitled a relative place of authority, as soon as we sign up we have the right to crit, vote, and speak our minds within the rules. You are also right in the fact that TJ owes us nothing, however he gives us a lot, and he allows all of us to influence the site's affairs. However because that section act as a magnifying glass (explained earlier) it gives that section, and thus artists, more weight.

I have to admit that I don't get the whole "users have a right to do X" when it involves the development of the game.

 

If you play a video game, the developers don't publish everything as they go for public critique. If you watch a TV show, the writers aren't putting scripts up on the web so that everyone can add their opinion. Authors don't generally hand out half completed manuscripts so that people can tell them where the storyline should go. Most of the hobbies that people have they have little of no say over the creation involved.

 

I guess I just don't get the idea that because we're allowed a certain say in things that we're somehow entitled to know even more. Frankly, if the whole game was created in secret I think most people would keep playing. But once we're allowed some say and a partial look into the process it seems like the idea is that we must be entitled to view all of it in one form or other.

 

Personally, that seems like an argument for less input, not more.

[Aviatus]

@ Marri: I thought we were talking about a new more task oriented subforum for all, not access into the artist forum?

 

@skauble: All the authority we have is because TJ gives it to us, that is true. However while we are granted the power, all users have it from the moment they sign on.

[skinst]

And what skauble is pointing out is that NO other game, commercial and most online ones, will give you the kind of access to input you have here.

Edited December 29, 2010 by skinst

[Aviatus]

True enough, which is why DC is so unique

[skauble]

@skauble: All the authority we have is because TJ gives it to us, that is true. However while we are granted the power, all users have it from the moment they sign on.

But if that forum is separate then apparently that's not power we've been given. The idea here seems to be that the power and input of users can't be limited in a variety of ways, and I'm not understanding that. Granting people a certain amount of authority doesn't entitle them to more, or for all to have the same amount.

 

We're not entitled to have any direct input in the process, so I don't see where we're entitled to have a set amount of it or an amount that is equal to others. Being a member of this forum doesn't create some kind of guarantee of access; it simply allows us access to the avenues of input provided for us. If one of those avenues includes the artists' forum then we're being given input there. But if it doesn't include that forum, then where does our claim to authority come from?