Usefulness of "Kill"

[Sir Barton]

Rudeness and name calling does not make your argument convincing. Why shouldn't there be a stigma? Dragons with evengen lineages, or stairstep, or some color or naming theme look like they took time and care and effort to create. Dragons with inbred lineages look like little thought and planning went into their creation, like the breeder was careless and didn't even bother to check, and they aren't at all useful to those of us who breed with a certain goal in mind. Sure, people can play any way they want, and can breed without grand plans and inbreed. However, folks who like inbreds or don't care are in the minority, while a disproportionate number of eggs in the AP are inbred because the non-inbred stuff gets picked up. Is it right for a minority to contribute more than their share to the cave block?

I see no problem with inbreds at all. Yes they contribute to the AP block but so do CB commons and all the 2nd gen eggs I picked up and tossed back today. Every egg released contributes to the block. You can't single out one type as the main culprit.

 

You say that inbreds are worth less because it takes time and thought to create a lineage dragon so they should carry a stigma. Does this look like careless breeding? There should be no stigma attached to inbred dragons because when you do that you inadvertently also attach that stigma to the players who like them. That is akin to telling someone else how to play the game and that's simply wrong. You have every right to collect and freeze whatever eggs you catch but I have the same right to release whatever eggs I wish. If they get killed, so be it. Once an egg leaves my scroll it's on it's own, however, I have found that the majority of my inbreds, and not just even gen ones, have survived while I've had a short gen clean Dorkface frozen and released. Apparently, you never know what other people are going to like since not everyone values the same things.

[Draketeeth]

I use the kill function. It's not something that I really like to do (I did have to raise them to adults after all. Knifing them undoes all that hard work), but as I saw stated earlier in the thread, it sure is a good way of cleaning up lineages. I'm nixing off several of my inbreds to make their lineages more desirable. Honestly I really don't like stuff like the pruning project which recommends freeze and release. I would prefer if the offspring were just knifed so as not to leave all those unnamed dragons in my offspring list. Or, let it back into the AP. Someone else wants it.

 

But I can't control how people play. So I breed my inbreds rarely, and if they produce an egg, I use my vampires to bite it. I also do that to other people's inbreds too.

 

Someday though, if my metallics ever start dropping eggs their own color, some of them are gonna die. It'll clean up their lines too. Then I can start off on a better foot with clean lined dragons. *pokes inbreds*

 

lol, Sir Barton, that is an epic awesome inbred. I believe when the term inbred is thrown around (and in the context I use it also) it generally means the more messy looking lineages like this or line breeding like this. Both of these will someday get the knife.

 

What you posted is indeed an example of careful and thoughtful planning. From what I've seen of users who talk about that kind of inbreeding, it is better accepted as a whole. Just cause it's so awesome to look at

[Obscure_Trash]

I try not to use kill, myself, simply because I wanna gold trophy and to work up to tons of dragons. :B

 

I did use kill the few days working up to Halloween so I could try for some zombies, though. And I don't care about other users who use kill. The function is there, so if they wanna make use of it, why not? :3

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Honestly I really don't like stuff like the pruning project which recommends freeze and release. I would prefer if the offspring were just knifed so as not to leave all those unnamed dragons in my offspring list.

Many of us name them and keep them after freezing. I want my 500 gold trophy.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

lol, Sir Barton, that is an epic awesome inbred. I believe when the term inbred is thrown around (and in the context I use it also) it generally means the more messy looking lineages like this or line breeding like this.

Yes, exactly. I was not referring to such lineages as Sir Barton's example. There are forum threads for perfect evengen inbreds all descendend from one pair, for inbred checkerboards, for inbred splits. Clearly, those took time and effort. I do wonder what folks with those lines do with eggs that gender wrong or are the wrong species. I would hope they keep them, or gift them to someone for whose project they are suitable. It's what I try to do with my "unwanted" common eggs because I don't want to clog the cave.

 

There should be no stigma attached to inbred dragons because when you do that you inadvertently also attach that stigma to the players who like them. That is akin to telling someone else how to play the game and that's simply wrong.

 

I have said people can play the game as they wish, have I not? I don't like inbreds. Never told other people they can't like inbreds, or that they must kill inbreds, or freeze them. Simply said 1) I believe inbreds are a disproportionately large part of the AP, 2) freezing is an alternative to killing them, and 3) please do your part to not block the AP with anything, but especially inbreds.

 

Every egg released contributes to the block. You can't single out one type as the main culprit.

 

Others have made this argument too. My belief is inbreds are in the AP more often than non-inbred stuff, based on my own observation (which is not hard scientific proof, I admit). If I see reliable figures from an unbiased source that prove me wrong, I'll certainly recant.

 

Nice to see someone discuss this in a civil manner, thank you.

 

I'll drop out of this discussion now because I am veering away from the "killing as means of inbred control" thing and too far towards the off-topic "inbreds: good or bad?" thing.

edit: bolded the text above

Edited January 5, 2011 by CatOfEvilGenius

[_Z_]

As I just posted, this is the topic: Usefulness of "Kill"

 

When was the last time anybody used the "Kill" action on anything?  Incubate and Release pretty much cover any usefulness Kill had, except to get zombies.  Why not ditch "Kill" altogether and just list "Reincarnate" as an action for hatchlings and adults, and have it do "Kill" and "Revive" all in one fell swoop?  (Unless, of course, the dragon has died for some other reason, like a hatchling dying from overviewing.)

 

If members would enjoy another Inbred discussion, please take it to an existing topic.

We already have this poll/discussion:

 

Inbred Dragons, What do you think of inbred dragons?

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...reeding+inbreed

Edited January 5, 2011 by _Z_

[Ktribb]

Just gettin started on here, still trying to get some dragons let alone kill some off for some special reasons, maybe one day I'll get the hang of things and be able to make decisions like the Kill option. Eh? who knows. I do enjoy everybody else's opinions though

[Nalyua]

I know many people who decide against kill.

 

And I think that´s fine!

 

As long as those who chose not to kill don´t try to impose this onto other users, I respect their opinion on kill-option

[Gwenhyffar]

Yes, I am. I don't inbreed (*), but when have a common egg that gendered wrong or is the wrong species, I often try to keep it or gift it rather than dumping it in the AP where it probably won't get picked up and will just block the cave. That's just common courtesy to my fellow players. Why shouldn't I expect the same courtesy from others, especially those who deliberately breed stuff that most people don't want? Do you like having a blocked cave? No? Then do your part not to block it.

 

Actually, I like a full AP. Gives me plenty of choice in eggs.

 

You can't say it's courteous to ask people who do not play the way that you like to play to not use part of the game that is available.

 

The courteous thing is to let everyone play the way they want and to take the AP and the cave as it comes.

 

It's supposed to be a challenge. One of the challenges is getting to the cave when it's not blocked.

 

Seriously, asking people to stop playing the way they like _and are allowed to according to the rules of the game_ just so you can play the way you like is _not_ in any way asking them to be courteous. It's asking them to defer to _your_ likes and dislikes, disregarding their own.

[Ktribb]

I totally agree with you Gwen. Very well put, its actually not right that people can ask people to not play the way they want to, and if people wanted somethin easy to play the way they want to play, cant they go play pokemon and breed on there they way they want? lol

[Fuzzbucket]

I totally agree with you Gwen. Very well put, its actually not right that people can ask people to not play the way they want to, and if people wanted somethin easy to play the way they want to play, cant they go play pokemon and breed on there they way they want? lol

Right on. Kill is for vamps and zombies anyway

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Actually, I like a full AP. Gives me plenty of choice in eggs.

 

[snip]

 

It's supposed to be a challenge. One of the challenges is getting to the cave when it's not blocked.

Surprising as your statement is to me, I concede your point. It did not occur to me that there are players who want the cave to be blocked, but if that's how you like to play, I cannot make the "let's all do our part to not block the cave" argument.

 

I hope you can see that when I try to not block the cave, that isn't just for my own benefit. Were I playing selfishly, I would dump anything I didn't want in order to free up my own scroll, rather than trying to keep the cave available for everyone. I understand that those who actually like a blocked cave aren't being selfish when they dump, so let's not argue about that.

 

However, I must disagree with the "too easy" claim. The game is quite challenging enough even when one can get to the cave. Getting what you want from the cave takes much time and patience even when it's open, and there is much more to this game than grabbing the egg you want. That's only part of the challenge.

 

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I use the kill function. It's not something that I really like to do (I did have to raise them to adults after all. Knifing them undoes all that hard work), but as I saw stated earlier in the thread, it sure is a good way of cleaning up lineages. I'm nixing off several of my inbreds to make their lineages more desirable.

 

Several folks have pointed out kill can be used to hide a lineage one doesn't like. This REALLY tempts me to kill one of my breeding pairs. It's not as satisfying as having something clean-lined, but at least I don't have to see what I don't like. What stops me is I think the owners of the killed dragon's parents would be upset that something they bred was killed. I believe many folks feel that way, but what if I'm mistaken? So let me throw this question out to you all.

 

How do folks here feel about about something they bred being killed?

 

I'm not asking if players have the right to kill stuff, obviously they do. I'm asking if this would upset someone, even if they believe everyone can play as they like. Usefulness of kill is all well and good, but I would like something useful and not annoying to most of the community.

Edited January 5, 2011 by CatOfEvilGenius

[Fuzzbucket]

How do folks here feel about about something they bred being killed?

I don't give a flying banana. But in the unlikely event that there was one I did care about, I would try and unload it on someone else who cared for it. But thing is - if I bred something lovely (by my standards) - why not KEEP it ? And if not - why would I care what happens to it ?

 

I mind a LOT more about really ghastly names showing up on the children of my adults. Fluffy bunny stuff showing up in their children does bug me some Then again some of my names seem deranged to others - I get PMs....

[_Z_]

When was the last time anybody used the "Kill" action on anything?  Incubate and Release pretty much cover any usefulness Kill had, except to get zombies.  Why not ditch "Kill" altogether and just list "Reincarnate" as an action for hatchlings and adults, and have it do "Kill" and "Revive" all in one fell swoop?  (Unless, of course, the dragon has died for some other reason, like a hatchling dying from overviewing.)

I have reminded members many times, this is the topic.

[Gwenhyffar]

 

How do folks here feel about about something they bred being killed?

 

I don't mind. I rarely breed now, only when I want something to continue my plans or when someone wants one of my cb x cb offspring.

 

I don't actually check all that much on offspring, only on the odd one that I noticed got paired with another nice dragon or lineage to see what people make of it.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

[snip] in the unlikely event that there was one I did care about, I would try and unload it on someone else who cared for it. But thing is - if I bred something lovely (by my standards) - why not KEEP it ? And if not - why would I care what happens to it ?

[snip]

I was thinking of these cases:

 

1) multi egg clutch

2) lost in trade

3) deliberate abandon release as a gift to some stranger

 

I have done the last with oranges, since the orange BSA is coming soon(ish), and with blacks, since they are so rare now.

 

Thanks for the opinions. This thread has really made me reevaluate the kill option. Shown me uses for it I hadn't thought of, such as storytelling and lineage hiding. I'll keep an eye out in the forums. If it seems kill doesn't bother most folks that much, I might end up using it more than twice in two years. In the past, I've mostly seen vehement and vocal opposition to it, but is that because those who don't mind just don't speak up?

 

Is kill at all useful for its original (?) purpose, forcing eggs? My impression is its way too risky, so I've never tried to force. Are we allowed to ask on dc what the odds are of a successful forcing? My guess is no?

Edited January 5, 2011 by CatOfEvilGenius

[Fuzzbucket]

I am scared to use it for that, myself. EQ has worked for exactly no-one I know.

 

But I might test it in a little while. NOT now as I have a project in hand

[Neuko]

Kill is useful for zombies, lineages and forcing, yeah.

I killed my only one inbred. I also killed a lot of on Halloween, but only the one who died himself and without my help turned into zombie. Moral, isn't it... Yesterday I tried to kill my vampire to make his victims disconnected from anything else. But he avoided. Today I killed and tried to revive a Dorsal. Tried to gain a zombie.

Am I so evil? o_O OMG

I love dragons, but I can't help it. If Dragcave was real, it would surely be overpopulated with dragons

[Ninetails]

....I don't mind kill anymore. I know I'm heartless, but I'm getting all the stages of the zombies so after that I wont be able to use kill anyways..

[Mysticwave]

What stops me is I think the owners of the killed dragon's parents would be upset that something they bred was killed. I believe many folks feel that way, but what if I'm mistaken? So let me throw this question out to you all.

 

How do folks here feel about about something they bred being killed?

I personally don't like to see dragons I bred ending up dead, unless I killed it myself (I've never done that). I haven't had anyone kill anything I've bred, and I hope the inbred dorkfaces I've been breeding in attempt for a gold (I have an inbred gold and an inbred dorkface, so they end up double inbred) don't get killed, even with their horribly inbred linage. And I never purposely kill an egg someone else bred just because it's inbred, in the case that they, too, may care whether the offsprings survive or not.

I've only used the kill option once, and that was on a CB water. I was relatively new back then, and I didn't think the water hatchie was going to survive. It was halloween, so I killed it and revived it, then it became a zombie, and gained its gender like, right after I killed it.

If I did want to kill for pruning linages, I'd only kill the offsprings of my inbred dragons after I've gotten an offspring of the species I want. If I wanted the inbred dragons that someone else bred off, I release.

But I would mind seeing it go, simply because I do not like options being taken away from me.

 

 

 

 

[Pink]

I don't mind if someone kills something I bred. I probably wouldn't notice.

I think I've only actually seen something from my cave dead twice.

Once was a inbred gold egg (which I completely agree with the killing of, in retrospect), and the other I think was a 3rd gen bluna.

Neither really affected me all that deeply.

 

I just have to throw in my 2 cents about EQ. I've actually had it work for me... I think three times now? All of them, of course, were accidental "successes". The first two times were with 4.5-5 day eggs which I knew weren't likely to die, but that usually just get a "This egg is unaffected". The third, I believe, was a 6 or 6.5 day egg that popped out out of nowhere.

That's coming from someone who has done hundreds of EQs, though.

 

 

[EeveeSkitty]

I don't kill, but I may use it someday. I'm not against those who do use it, because it's their choice. I don't believe there is any right away to play DC, the wonderfulness for it is you can choose yourself. I dislike those who try and change other people's ways of playing a game, like those non-competitive Pokemon players who claim competitive battling is ruining Pokemon and shouldn't be allowed.

[ACDragonMaster]

I don't see any problem with keeping the kill function. I mean, I personally have only used it a tiny handful of times, and don't plan to use it again outside of possibly forcing eggs, but the whole point of the cave is that you can play however you like. So one player can play pretending to be the caring nurturer who takes in all the poor lost and homeless dragons, while another player can play the ruthless dragon tamer who callously prunes any dragon who doesn't live up to expectations- permanently. Anything above and beyond clicking on links and looking at pixels is just a big game of pretend, and everyone pretends differently! Most importantly, it's for fun, there's no need to take it too seriously.

[ArynChris]

I have used kill for lineage clearing, things like artificial CBs and for unique cases, like I bred my second valentine 09 this year and want to kill the father so only the mother valentine shows up. Other than that... I have, in the middle of lineage projects, sometimes gotten mixed up and accidentally made an inbred egg. I hate that. It's tough to keep track properly when you don't own all the ancestors in the lineage, but it happens, and I would rather kill the egg than contribute to the population of inbreds on dc... they only ever come back to haunt me when I'm AP hunting.

[mpolo]

Kill could still be useful to force a neglected dragon out of its shell at the last second before dying. (Counter-intuitive, yes, but a true fact, nonetheless.)

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't see any problem with keeping the kill function. I mean, I personally have only used it a tiny handful of times, and don't plan to use it again outside of possibly forcing eggs, but the whole point of the cave is that you can play however you like. So one player can play pretending to be the caring nurturer who takes in all the poor lost and homeless dragons, while another player can play the ruthless dragon tamer who callously prunes any dragon who doesn't live up to expectations- permanently. Anything above and beyond clicking on links and looking at pixels is just a big game of pretend, and everyone pretends differently! Most importantly, it's for fun, there's no need to take it too seriously.

Someone was suggesting it should go away ??? That I would not be happy with. I use it rarely (in fact, about twice ever) but others have the absolute right. I am actually more upset at dragons I bred dying of sickness; that suggests the new owner had no purpose in catching them at all...

 

We need kill for zombies anyway. *lives in hope*

 

But - doing it for lineage is all very well, but you can still tell it's not a REAL CB