Abortion

[potterwolf]

Even in an informal debate there needs to be a clear definition between an opinion and a fact, especially in a debate of this nature which is based as much around a person's personal feelings on the matter than scientific theory. In anything you say you should define there being a difference between the two, else confusion will spring up. If someone cannot be bothered to do so, expect their arguments to be ignored or deconstructed - if you try to pass something of as a fact (intentionally or accidentally) and their point is based on that statement, pointing out that their initial statement is incorrect or cannot be supported empirically debases their entire point rather quickly and any further potentially-valid points may be ignored because of that initial mistake. Think of it as a 'proof by contradiction.'

 

So if you [general] want to be taken even semi-seriously then it is best to avoid this particular pitfall. Because once you try to pass something off in that manner and get called on it, your credibility takes a heck of a hit from your opponents and potentially spectators.

Fine. I'll concede your point that in a debate setting, clarity is essential. However, it was still a rather cheap shot, whether or not you were technically correct. As was mentioned earlier, communication is the purpose of conversation, and I don't think this conversation is adding much to overall communication. I understand your position, I've told you mine. It's ultimately irrelevant. We should actually talk about abortion.

[Kestra15]

Fine. I'll concede your point that in a debate setting, clarity is essential. However, it was still a rather cheap shot, whether or not you were technically correct. As was mentioned earlier, communication is the purpose of conversation, and I don't think this conversation is adding much to overall communication. I understand your position, I've told you mine. It's ultimately irrelevant. We should actually talk about abortion.

Actually, it was the most relevant point in the debate of abortion; is the fetus a person?

[potterwolf]

Actually, it was the most relevant point in the debate of abortion; is the fetus a person?

Right. I was trying to respond to that point, but then we got caught up in a side debate that I don't feel was productive. I've stated my position on the personhood of a fetus. It all depends on the definition of "person". Nobody else seems particularly interested in discussing it.

[Kestra15]

Right. I was trying to respond to that point, but then we got caught up in a side debate that I don't feel was productive. I've stated my position on the personhood of a fetus. It all depends on the definition of "person". Nobody else seems particularly interested in discussing it.

Oddly enough, pretty much the entire debate on abortion does actually boil down to that question. So I think quite a lot of people do care.

[Dr. Paine]

Actually, it was the most relevant point in the debate of abortion; is the fetus a person?

Agreeing with Kestra here- it's an enormous point of the debate.

 

Is the fetus a person? As soon as an egg is fertilized, should it be granted all the rights of an adult, or even an already-born baby?

 

Personally, I think not. Until it is capable of surviving outside of the womb- even if it requires some medical intervention (NICU and such)- it shouldn't be considered a person, at least in the eyes of the law. At the very least, the rights of a fetus should never outweigh those of the mother until it's actually born. You don't treat a seed the same as the full tree, and a potential person shouldn't be treated as, or forcibly compromise the well-being of, an already living person.

 

Obviously, if you intend to go through with the pregnancy, you should take some care of the fetus, but... ... well, I think people get the point I'm trying to make here.

[Brite]

No, but as there is no concrete definition as to what defines a 'person,' nor consensus as to whether a fetus is 'alive' or possess a soul (by 'soul' here I use it as a catch-all word to indicate whatever those indefinable qualities are that make someone/thing 'alive' or 'a person), then it cannot be said for certain if a fetus is/isn't alive/a person.

 

One cannot prove if a soul enters a fetus. Other religions think diffrently. We can't all decide and raise hands to assume if it is possesed by a soul because of the mixture of beliefs in people. The best we can do is provide scientific evidence which so far hasn't proved that there is a soul

 

Is the fetus a person? As soon as an egg is fertilized, should it be granted all the rights of an adult, or even an already-born baby?

 

I strongly say no. A lot of people make it seem like our bodies are hijacked when pregnant and refuse our rights to our own body. I'd rather not be forced to be an incubator to something that may not become human, especially if I'd die in the process, thank you.

Edited January 31, 2012 by GhostChilli

[Princess Artemis]

Actually, it was the most relevant point in the debate of abortion; is the fetus a person?

It is a very relevant point, but it looked lot like potterwolf was saying the semantics of how someone says it is not quite as relevant. "Is a fetus a person" wasn't the point you, potterwolf, and I were poking about for a bit there; we were poking about how important it is to preface a statement with a qualifier while engaged in debate.

 

Please don't pretend that side-trek was about something else. To do so would undermine your credibility in the eyes of those engaged with you and those reading along, something you've just now taken great pains to point out in someone else as an undesirable thing to do.

 

Now, back to your regular scheduled discussion.

[Kestra15]

It is a very relevant point, but it looked lot like potterwolf was saying the semantics of how someone says it is not quite as relevant. "Is a fetus a person" wasn't the point you, potterwolf, and I were poking about for a bit there; we were poking about how important it is to preface a statement with a qualifier while engaged in debate.

 

Please don't pretend that side-trek was about something else. To do so would undermine your credibility in the eyes of those engaged with you and those reading along, something you've just now taken great pains to point out in someone else as an undesirable thing to do.

 

Now, back to your regular scheduled discussion.

It's fine, I got more views for my Poke's and I feel better after last night's shift, so at least one of us got something out of this.

 

And to keep this on topic; my sister's going through counselling for her abortion. She had some people campaigning outside against abortion and hassling those going in. I have lost some respect for the pro-life camp.

[Dr. Paine]

It's fine, I got more views for my Poke's and I feel better after last night's shift, so at least one of us got something out of this.

 

And to keep this on topic; my sister's going through counselling for her abortion. She had some people campaigning outside against abortion and hassling those going in. I have lost some respect for the pro-life camp.

I'm sorry to hear she had to deal with that >: It's one thing to protest, it's another to cause even more stress to people who are already going through an enormously troubled time, or (at least in some places in the US) going in for something else entirely- a lot of clinics also offer plain old birth control/general health screenings.

 

I hope she does okay, give her my best <3

Edited January 31, 2012 by Dr. Paine

[Kestra15]

I'm sorry to hear she had to deal with that >: It's one thing to protest, it's another to cause even more stress to people who are already going through an enormously troubled time, or (at least in some places in the US) going in for something else entirely- a lot of clinics also offer plain old birth control/general health screenings.

 

I hope she does okay, give her my best <3

Thank you. She's tough though, and Dad actually likes her, so she's doing fine.

[TikindiDragon]

And to keep this on topic; my sister's going through counselling for her abortion. She had some people campaigning outside against abortion and hassling those going in. I have lost some respect for the pro-life camp.

Wow, really? I didn't think that happened over here. Huh. Give her a hug from me.

[Shredderbeam]

One cannot prove if a soul enters a fetus. Other religions think diffrently. We can't all decide and raise hands to assume if it is possesed by a soul because of the mixture of beliefs in people. The best we can do is provide scientific evidence which so far hasn't proved that there is a soul

 

 

 

I strongly say no. A lot of people make it seem like our bodies are hijacked when pregnant and refuse our rights to our own body. I'd rather not be forced to be an incubator to something that may not become human, especially if I'd die in the process, thank you.

 

I completely agree with your view on whether a soul enters the fetus.

 

I also agree with your view on fetus personhood, but I'd actually make the argument that whether or not a fetus is a person is irrelevant - it's a question of personal autonomy.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Shredderbeam

[TikindiDragon]

I also agree with your view on fetus personhood, but I'd actually make the argument that whether or not a fetus is a person is irrelevant - it's a question of personal autonomy.

Hmmmm. Not sure abou that. From my point of view it is extremely relevant, because in my view killing a person is murder. And I don't think any amount of personal autonomy can justify murder.

 

That said I don't believe a fetus is a person, so I'm pro-choice, but if a fetus met my personal definition of a person then I'd have a huge ethical problem with the idea of abortion.

[philpot123]

I'd rather not be forced to be an incubator to something that may not become human, especially if I'd die in the process, thank you.

 

It's really not being forced, unless you mean through rape, because pregnancy is a direct consequence of another action. It's not as if it's a huge surprise that sleeping with someone can get you pregnant.

 

How many women in modernized countries die in childbirth? Really? O.o

[diannethegeek]

There's a new report out comparing the safety of abortions to birth in the US.

 

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.

 

Experts say the findings, though not unexpected, contradict some state laws that suggest abortions are high-risk procedures.

 

The message is that getting an abortion and giving birth are both safe, said Dr. Anne Davis, who studies obstetrics and gynecology at the Columbia University Medical Center in New York, and wasn't involved in the new study.

 

"We wouldn't tell people, 'Don't have a baby because it's safer to have an abortion' -- that's ridiculous," she told Reuters Health. "We're trying to help women who are having all reproductive experiences know what to expect."

 

The res is here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/23/...E80M2BS20120123

[St. Jimmy]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/23/...E80M2BS20120123

I need to stop reading the comments on these articles... the ignorance disgusts me.

[Kila]

It's really not being forced, unless you mean through rape, because pregnancy is a direct consequence of another action. It's not as if it's a huge surprise that sleeping with someone can get you pregnant.

 

How many women in modernized countries die in childbirth? Really? O.o

I'd say that using contraceptives to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, having those contraceptives fail, and then conceiving a child and not having the choice to abort is forcing a woman to be pregnant.

 

Abortion is not birth control, and nor should it ever be. But should methods of contraception fail I firmly believe a woman should have the right to decide whether or not she wants to abort, simply because of the physical, emotional, and mental tolls to the body.

 

Granted I believe her partner should also have a say, but in the end the decision is the woman's, as unfair as that sounds.

[CatCreature]

I need to stop reading the comments on these articles... the ignorance disgusts me.

Oh geez, why did you say that?? You made me curious.

 

Now I have to stab my brain out.

[HollyTheColliegirl]

I remember reading somewhere that a fetus is not a living breathing person until the cord is broken, it leaves the womb, and takes its first breath. In that moment, it becomes a he or she. Before that, it is a bunch of cells, and IMHO, should be treated as such by the law.

 

Pro-choice.

[-platinum-draco-]

Oh geez, why did you say that?? You made me curious.

 

Now I have to stab my brain out.

I (dis)like how they say that the emotional trauma involved is worse than non-aborting.

[Brite]

It's really not being forced, unless you mean through rape, because pregnancy is a direct consequence of another action. It's not as if it's a huge surprise that sleeping with someone can get you pregnant.

 

So how is it different from rape? And almost any choice has some form of consequence. Sex is a bond. Not just a reproductive reason. If she doesn't want kids, fine, her choice. No one else should make it for her or "suggest" ideas or judge her. Period.

[xhunter]

funny really if you think about it. the america constitution would suggest that a ban on a abortion is against it, right to freedom. if the ban happened you could compare that situation with both old slavery of natives and the likes or males are dominate over females thought.

 

that is the grate flaw of the american constitution it seems to only be meant for white males. 'our' constitution on freedom in america would render peoples against over half of the things like gay rights, female rights, abortion rights, and the likes irrelevant. we should not even have to worry about fearing to be gay, getting and abortion, getting treated fairly. america is against its own constitution unless it serves their wants.

Edited February 2, 2012 by xhunter

[Lexi_R]

You are right! The Government will say how everyone has thier own freedom and rights but then if you chose a choice then you get judged. I belive that Abortion is a great Idea. Their is Teenage girls out their that SHOULD NOT have any childern yet. Their are people that will get pregnant and wouldn't even make a good mother! And what if you get RAPED! Do you want to live your life with a child that will remind you every day of your rapist? I would not even have to think twice about abortion in that situwation. Their are people out there that do not and should not have kids. Would you rather there be a child with a disorder or a horrible life instead of not even creating a child in that sitchuation? You might be against Abortion and think "Well if you have unprotected sex that's what you get!" But would you want a child to grow up knowing that they were a mistake and unwanted? Why not dispose of the horrible life befor a child has to suffer from it? I would like to hear other's response to my opinion.

[Obscure_Trash]

The nation’s leading breast-cancer charity, Susan G. Komen for the Cure, is halting its partnerships with Planned Parenthood affiliates — creating a bitter rift, linked to the abortion debate, between two iconic organizations that have assisted millions of women.

 

The change will mean a cutoff of hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants, mainly for breast exams.

 

Planned Parenthood says the move results from Komen bowing to pressure from anti-abortion activists. Komen says the key reason is that Planned Parenthood is under investigation in Congress — a probe launched by a conservative Republican who was urged to act by anti-abortion groups.

 

Rest of the article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ap-...bffQ_print.html

 

Ugh double ugh.

[NobleOwl]

How many women in modernized countries die in childbirth? Really? O.o

 

Even so, there are worse things than death, and you have to factor in "die from a consequence of giving birth" which I don't think you're doing. The risks in giving birth are gigantic, for anyone. Complications of one sort of another happen in the majority of pregnancies.

 

And since it's been awhile, in case anyone is new or forgotten:

 

Hi, I'm Noble, formerly pro-life, now pro-choice because according to my religion, the fetus is not ensouled, or considered a living person by G-d.

 

It's really not being forced, unless you mean through rape, because pregnancy is a direct consequence of another action. It's not as if it's a huge surprise that sleeping with someone can get you pregnant.

 

You'd be surprised. Do you know how many women who have abortions every year because they were told they or their partner was sterile?

 

Further, what is someone supposed to do of they are religious and not having sex is a sin, but the birth control fails?