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So what about the ones who can't survive out of the womb when too early? Remember, premature survive with critical care and help from machines used today. If there was none of that, a lot wouldn't survive.

 

Reword that, I'm pretty sure NONE would survive at that early stage.

So you're not going to answer my question? If it is not a "baby" until the moment it is born, it must be okay to kill a child at any state of pregnancy. Yes or no?

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Could you clarify? I don't believe humanity is an any way contingent on the ability to survive independently, that's the view that you are presenting.

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Frankly, without medical intervention a lot of us wouldn't survive very long. Again though, what about when we get to the late stages where the child *can* survive. Would it be right to abort then? If it is right, why is it right? What makes it different to a child who is also forty weeks after conception, but now out of the room and alive?

 

And I'm not replying to the point about a mother's right over a baby's, since I'm satisfied with the responses to that one :~)

There is a reason the cut-off time exists in most abortions, to solve this issue.

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There is a reason the cut-off time exists in most abortions, to solve this issue.

What I'm asking is for your personal belief though. A lot of people are saying that a fetus is not a human life until after birth, which is why I'm asking if you believe if a fetus is still not a human life, even if it is viable. And if you don't believe it is alive in the same sense as another person, then why not?

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So you're not going to answer my question? If it is not a "baby" until the moment it is born, it must be okay to kill a child at any state of pregnancy. Yes or no?

 

That has to do with my religious belief, which isn't the best idea to start bringing in this thread again. Adam was formed then life was breathed in. When a newborn takes it's first breath, I see it as the breath of life. Prematures are forced to have a premature body. Another thing me and another person were agreeing on with I don't think G-d would waste souls with so much downs that can happen in a womb.

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That has to do with my religious belief, which isn't the best idea to start bringing in this thread again. Adam was formed then life was breathed in. When a newborn takes it's first breath, I see it as the breath of life. Prematures are forced to have a premature body. Another thing me and another person were agreeing on with I don't think G-d would waste souls with so much downs that can happen in a womb.

Sadly, religion and abortion go hand in hand.

 

And why Downs specifically? Does a child with Downs not have a soul?

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What I'm asking is for your personal belief though. A lot of people are saying that a fetus is not a human life until after birth, which is why I'm asking if you believe if a fetus is still not a human life, even if it is viable. And if you don't believe it is alive in the same sense as another person, then why not?

This, and another thing... Is it right to kill an infant? If not, why? If it is not right to kill an infant, recently born, why is it right to kill a child in the womb who could survive on its own?

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What I'm asking is for your personal belief though. A lot of people are saying that a fetus is not a human life until after birth, which is why I'm asking if you believe if a fetus is still not a human life, even if it is viable. And if you don't believe it is alive in the same sense as another person, then why not?

I believe personally that a fetus is a human life when it is viable to be able to breathe, eat, and develop largely on its own without needing a mother's placenta. Once the baby is viable, then if you want to remove it, them remove it, and chuck it somewhere in the adoption system if you have to. My main beef with abortion is allowing the mother's right to her body go unviolated. If it's possible to have the fetus to be removed from her body without the fetus dying, then I'd say go for it. When it's viable, then that would be possible, wouldn't it?

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I don't remember anything prior to being about five/six years old, so that doesn't prove a thing.

 

Make that two. xd.png I'm sure there's probably some that remember a little earlier, though.

 

Whatever level of awareness they have, there's no reason for concern. Human children can't even pass the mirror test until they're about two years old.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/m/mirror_test.htm

 

In your opinion that may be. Remember though, some do not believe that the fetus is a woman's 'property' but in fact a life of it's own. Regardless, that does not stop us assigning value to it.

 

You haven't provided a good reason for why a woman should be forced to keep it.

 

But different societies do have different values though - we wouldn't dream of eating dogs in the UK, and some cultures would never dare to cultivate cows for food. Your Mileage May Vary.

 

So? Should we stop butchering cows? If not, then how is this analogous to abortion?

 

Okay. But wouldn't it be fair on that child, literally a day before birth? Why would it be 'only' abortion, whereas if I killed that child a day later moments after it was born that would be 'murder?'

 

Any line you draw is arbitrary, so your point is moot.

 

Some recoil back into protecting fertilized eggs because of poor arguments about killing people in their sleep if a fetus can be aborted. It's ludicrous.

 

If it is not right to kill an infant, recently born, why is it right to kill a child in the womb who could survive on its own?

 

It's just an arbitrary line. You could draw it anywhere, and it could be argued, "Why not a day later"?

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I believe personally that a fetus is a human life when it is viable to be able to breathe, eat, and develop largely on its own without needing a mother's placenta. Once the baby is viable, then if you want to remove it, them remove it, and chuck it somewhere in the adoption system if you have to. My main beef with abortion is allowing the mother's right to her body go unviolated. If it's possible to have the fetus to be removed from her body without the fetus dying, then I'd say go for it. When it's viable, then that would be possible, wouldn't it?

Cool - although I would say that being unable to eat doesn't mean you're not viable ;~)

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Cool - although I would say that being unable to eat doesn't mean you're not viable ;~)

True, that was bad wording on my part.

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Does a child with Downs not have a soul?

 

You misunderstood me. I meant so many things that could go wrong in the womb. Miscarriage, tumor, parasite, ect. So many repeating.

 

This, and another thing... Is it right to kill an infant? If not, why? If it is not right to kill an infant, recently born, why is it right to kill a child in the womb who could survive on its own?

 

Is it right to make a child live through hell just to satisfy one's personal beliefs?

 

remove it, and chuck it somewhere in the adoption system if you have to

I hope you're joking with that

Edited by GhostChilli

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You misunderstood me. I meant so many things that could go wrong in the womb. Miscarriage, tumor, parasite, ect. So many repeating.

 

 

 

Is it right to make a child live through hell just to satisfy one's personal beliefs?

Again, you don't answer my question and dodge with a question of your own.

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Again, you don't answer my question and dodge with a question of your own.

No actually, I answered it. Go look. It's my belief

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If it is not a "baby" until the moment it is born, it must be okay to kill a child at any state of pregnancy. Yes or no?

 

How does a first trimester equal a breathing, giggling baby? A fetus is not a child, which is independent biologically from it's mother. A first week zygote is FAAAR different then a third, ready to be born. An early abortion is a heck of a lot different than killing an actually born baby that's a few weeks old. Seed=/=tree

Edited by CrippledCrow

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An early abortion is a heck of a lot different than killing an actually born baby that's a few weeks old. Seed=/=tree

 

You may mean sprout. Tree will probably resemble an adult

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How does a first trimester equal a breathing, giggling baby? A fetus is not a child, which is independent biologically from it's mother. A first week zygote is FAAAR different then a third, ready to be born. An early abortion is a heck of a lot different than killing an actually born baby that's a few weeks old. Seed=/=tree

That doesn't answer my question. If a fetus is not equatable to a baby, it SHOULD be okay to kill a fetus at ANY stage of the pregnancy. 1st trimester, 2nd, doesn't matter, right? It's not a baby. Yes or no? I'm talking EVERYTHING from early to late, so try to stop fixating on early.

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No. Fetus does not equal baby. With multiple proof. My cut off is 2nd trimester. you're asking for all stages. There's a cutoff for a REASON. You won't get you're full answer there.

Edited by GhostChilli

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No. Fetus does not equal baby. With multiple proof. My cut off is 2nd trimester. you're asking for all stages. There's a cutoff for a REASON. You won't get you're full answer there.

You're making jumps. That's not what I asked. My question to CrippledCrow was whether or not it is okay to kill fetuses at any stage of the pregnancy, as this WOULD be consistent with the belief that a fetus =/= a baby.

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That doesn't answer my question. If a fetus is not equatable to a baby, it SHOULD be okay to kill a fetus at ANY stage of the pregnancy. 1st trimester, 2nd, doesn't matter, right? It's not a baby. Yes or no? I'm talking EVERYTHING from early to late, so try to stop fixating on early.

You're confusing me now. Since there's so many loops around that question since there's development going on. So I'm not going to answer that since it that question looks like a guilt trip. Not saying it is, but with my belief, it's okay up to 2nd trimester. Why? Because a fetus actually DOES feel pain during late trimester, but when I know for sure it doesn't in first and second, I'd feel much better about getting one if I did.

Edited by CrippledCrow

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You're confusing me now. Since there's so many loops around that question since there's development going on. So I'm not going to answer that since it that question looks like a guilt trip. Not saying it is, but with my belief, it's okay up to 2nd trimester. Why? Because a fetus actually DOES feel pain during late trimester, but when I know for sure it doesn't in first and second, I'd feel much better about getting one if I did.

Oh it's not a guilt trip, I'm just trying to figure out what you actually think before running down a path of argumentation that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs smile.gif I'm not trying to make you feel bad about anything, just presenting the alternative viewpoint.

 

 

So in your opinion the personhood of the fetus is determined by ability to feel pain?

Edited by philpot123

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Oh it's not a guilt trip, I'm just trying to figure out what you actually think before running down a path of argumentation that has NOTHING to do with your beliefs smile.gif I'm not trying to make you feel bad about anything, just presenting the alternative viewpoint.

 

 

So in your opinion the personhood of the fetus is determined by ability to feel pain?

No, the pain thing is just me feeling bad on making something go through pain. Person hood to me is when it actually can be dependent from the womb fully without needing extra care(because I agree a bit on the premature thing when I was lurking. Those special machines premature babies are in seem more like a womb replacement since they were forced out of the mother's) and eats, laughs, can pretty much do anything a regular person can do naturally.

Edited by CrippledCrow

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I hope you're joking with that

I am. I don't approve of chucking babbies in the adoption system as an extension of abortion. I also don't approve of waiting until the later trimesters to abort.

 

/shrugs

 

Self-catch 22.

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No, the pain thing is just me feeling bad on making something go through pain. Person hood to me is when it actually can be dependent from the womb fully without needing extra care(because I agree a bit on the premature thing when I was lurking. Those special machines premature babies are in seem more like a womb replacement since they were forced out of the mother's) and eats, laughs, can pretty much do anything a regular person can do naturally.

But what about children with mental deficiencies who ALWAYS need extra care for their entire life? Are they never fully human? Is it okay to kill them?

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But what about children with mental deficiencies who ALWAYS need extra care for their entire life? Are they never fully human? Is it okay to kill them?

 

 

They can certainly feel pain and are biologically independent from a womb. They're out of the question. Some places don't care about special need kids/adults. They either torture them or leave them. Not all countries and places have the same healthcare as the U.S or good places. Just saying.

 

So how about the children who are always in pain physically and mentally in adoption systems and foster homes. Is it okay to force life into them? (Also read while lurking)

Edited by CrippledCrow

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That doesn't answer my question. If a fetus is not equatable to a baby, it SHOULD be okay to kill a fetus at ANY stage of the pregnancy. 1st trimester, 2nd, doesn't matter, right? It's not a baby. Yes or no? I'm talking EVERYTHING from early to late, so try to stop fixating on early.

they do answer it from what i see though there not giving you a answer you want. i could give my personal thought on it that might answer it more closely though i will hold it unless you want to know it, i mean not to insult and don't want to admit my thought if it will upset anyone.

 

 

as for the question asked earlyer about animals i have to say that a soul is based on the races view point. to some of us value of animals is not only for the soul or how smart it is its knowing that just like us we need surtain things. though i would not consider a humans life higher than any other creature because any way you spin it we as animals are all the same but abortions are natural. all creatures should understand that even if we don't agree or like it.

 

and my answer to which was worse murder or slavery. slavery is because the slave is forced to continually do something with no release and murder is a release. the dead person has nothing to fear of this world but the slave can and will still feel pain even if it is after so many months. plus most of these little 'saved' offspring that is tossed in a system try and kill themselves anyway so what is the point of making them have to decide that. i would not want any life to have to make that choice without being at peace with death.

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