Abortion

[philpot123]

I think someone said before that it's not that they can't feel pain necessarily, but that they can't process the feeling of pain themselves like a developed human would (like an adult or child). Not sure if it's the person you are quoting.

 

Like, a fetus wouldn't be able to feel pain, and ALSO wouldn't be able to think "Hey, this is hurting/destroying me" and then react. Because they can't, it is impossible for them to. A baby or an adult, on the other hand, can. They will try and get away from what is hurting them, they will scream, cry, and thrash around. And even if they have damaged nerve endings and cannot feel pain physically, if they see a person or object is damaging their body, they will know it is bad and try and stop it.

 

If their body is being damaged from the inside, the body is usually quick to react, so if the person can't feel pain on the inside either then they will still find out something is wrong eventually and try to get help. Even babies try and get help by trying to get someone's attention in any way possible. Normally by screaming or throwing objects, heheh.

 

Man, I am terrible at typing up what I think. I'm sorry. :c

Even if it doesn't respond to pain, why does that mean it's not a person? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but through conversations with doctors and pregnant women, I was under the impression that fetuses do in fact respond to outside stimuli, not necessarily pain but others (noise being an example).

 

 

 

Actually, yes. So it is scientifically a human. So it may be classified as a developing person. But what truly separates us from animals? You are Christian, I believe? Certainly our intelligence, our experiences, emotions and questioning of more than what we can see is something animals fail to equate to. Essentially, a fetus is an animal until such things begin to appear. Yes there is potential for good in a baby, but there is also potential for bad.

 

Yes I am a Christian. I believe what separates us from animals is being made in God's image and possessing a soul.

 

I fail to see how the potential for badness gives us the right to take a life.

[Brite]

A fetus is alive.

 

Here we go again. A fetus is alive by cells. Cancer is alive by same cells. Tumors are alive by same cells, which is what a fetus can become. My arm is alive by the same cells in a way. Aborting it would be no different than cutting my arm off.

[BirdSpirit]

Shoot me or whatever, but I'm pro-abortion However, I think that abortion should only happen in the first trimester. Anything after that is too high risk for the mother unless absolutely necessary.

 

A fetus may be alive, but I don't see it as a human with basic rights until after it is born. That's why I'm for stem cell research too. Fetuses have the ability to feel pain, but so do that of animals, and we don't seem to have a problem with killing those. In my opinion, humans are no different than animals. We just think we are.

[philpot123]

Here we go again. A fetus is alive by cells. Cancer is alive by same cells. Tumors are alive by same cells, which is what a fetus can become. My arm is alive by the same cells in a way. Aborting it would be no different than cutting my arm off.

I was responding to someone who said specifically "they're already alive", like abortion ISN'T stopping a beating heart. And no, cutting off your arm is a little different than ending the life of something developing into what you are, whole, with distinct physical features and functioning body parts, or the potential to develop them. Your arm is and will always be an arm.

 

 

In my opinion, humans are no different than animals. We just think we are.

 

The fact that we can comprehend our own existence to be able to think that we are different speaks for something. Cogito ergo sum.

Edited January 20, 2012 by philpot123

[MellaBella]

Even if it doesn't respond to pain, why does that mean it's not a person? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but through conversations with doctors and pregnant women, I was under the impression that fetuses do in fact respond to outside stimuli, not necessarily pain but others (noise being an example).

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I am a Christian. I believe what separates us from animals is being made in God's image and possessing a soul.

 

I fail to see how the potential for badness gives us the right to take a life.

I do agree that a fetus is human. As for a person, well, in my opinion a person can feel emotions, can feel pain, can react to certain situations not just through instinct but through rational thought.. you know, things like that. If someone is completely braindead, it is pretty much equal to death. At least to me, mind you. To me, the body is still human and alive (if it has help), and they used to be a person, but now they are not. They are dead and have passed on. A coma is different, as the brain is still alive (just unconscious), so it is possible that they could still be thinking and feeling.

 

And a fetus cannot really respond to external stimuli until much later into the pregnancy. Kind of hard to respond to things without a brain or nervous system. I guess cells and bacteria react without those, but does that stop you from destroying them without a thought? :/ (Not you specifically, of course, just saying.)

Edited January 20, 2012 by MellaBella

[philpot123]

I do agree that a fetus is human. As for a person, well, in my opinion a person can feel emotions, can feel pain, can react to certain situations not just through instinct but through rational thought.. you know, things like that. If someone is completely braindead, it is pretty much equal to death. At least to me, mind you. To me, the body is still human and alive (if it has help), and they used to be a person, but now they are not. They are dead and have passed on. A coma is different, as the brain is still alive (just unconscious), so it is possible that they could still be thinking and feeling.

 

And a fetus cannot really respond to external stimuli until much later into the pregnancy. Kind of hard to respond to things without a brain or nervous system. I guess cells and bacteria react without those, but does that stop you from destroying them without a thought? :/ (Not you specifically, of course, just saying.)

That whole "rational thought" thing is what leads Peter Singer to claim it's okay to kill children until they can display their will to live.

[Brite]

cutting off your arm is a little different than ending the life of something developing into what you are, whole, with distinct physical features and functioning body parts, or the potential to develop them. Your arm is and will always be an arm.

 

Alive, not a life. Potential? May not have the potential to even become a human.

[7Deadly$ins]

Shoot me or whatever, but I'm pro-abortion However, I think that abortion should only happen in the first trimester. Anything after that is too high risk for the mother unless absolutely necessary.

 

A fetus may be alive, but I don't see it as a human with basic rights until after it is born. That's why I'm for stem cell research too. Fetuses have the ability to feel pain, but so do that of animals, and we don't seem to have a problem with killing those. In my opinion, humans are no different than animals. We just think we are.

The term you're looking for is pro-choice, unless you think that we should have more abortions than births.

[philpot123]

Alive, not a life. Potential? May not have the potential to even become a human.

What's the difference?

 

So we get to be the judge, that the (statistically smaller) potential to become "non-life" is more important than the potential to become a fully formed, productive human? Yup, makes sense. Make judgments based on the minority.

[MellaBella]

That whole "rational thought" thing is what leads Peter Singer to claim it's okay to kill children until they can display their will to live.

Um, I am definitely not condoning killing children. Children can and will respond to pain of all forms (emotional, physical, mental, etc). Someone who is braindead cannot, as the brain is dying from necrosis, which is irreversible. There is nothing you can do to help someone who is braindead.. absolutely nothing. The brain is permanently nonfunctional. The rest of the body can be kept alive, but that is it.

 

It bothers me that you brought that up. It's almost insulting, really. I wasn't trying to force anything onto you, just showing my own opinion.

[philpot123]

Um, I am definitely not condoning killing children. Children can and will respond to pain of all forms (emotional, physical, mental, etc). Someone who is braindead cannot, as the brain is dying from necrosis, which is irreversible. There is nothing you can do to help someone who is braindead.. absolutely nothing. The brain is permanently nonfunctional. The rest of the body can be kept alive, but that is it.

 

It bothers me that you brought that up. It's almost insulting, really. I wasn't trying to force anything onto you, just showing my own opinion.

Well, likewise, I'm not forcing anything on you, just giving an example of the "rational thought" and "will to live" concepts carried through in a consistent manner after birth. Not saying that YOU believed that.

[Brite]

What's the difference?

 

So we get to be the judge, that the (statistically smaller) potential to become "non-life" is more important than the potential to become a fully formed, productive human? Yup, makes sense. Make judgments based on the minority.

Like I've said several times, fetuses can become a tumor, calcium mass, absorbed by the body, washed out(fetilized eggs) and become a parasitic mass. If you think potential is good enough to say it's a child, you're accusing every woman (and men, I'll get to that point) on earth of killing since an egg is potential, and 80% of ferilized eggs are washed out, sperm is potential, and millions die when a man..well you get the point. And with that idea, that apparently means cannibalism is involved in certain sexual situations.

Edited January 20, 2012 by GhostChilli

[MellaBella]

Well, likewise, I'm not forcing anything on you, just giving an example of the "rational thought" and "will to live" concepts carried through in a consistent manner after birth. Not saying that YOU believed that.

Mmkay, it just really seemed that that's what you were implying. :/

 

It's not like I don't feel remorse over these things. If you knew me, you would know that I'm one of the most emotional people that you could meet. But I am looking at this from a scientific standpoint; it doesn't mean I am indifferent to abortions and so on, because I really feel bad about them, but sometimes I just believe these things are needed.

 

I am Christian as well. I do believe that people have souls. I just believe that having the soul be put into the body comes later on. And to me, that's when the body has the potential to think and feel.

[philpot123]

Like I've said several times, fetuses can become a tumor, calcium mass, absorbed by the body, washed out(fetilized eggs) and become a parasitic mass. If you think potential is good enough to say it's a child, you're accusing every woman (and men, I'll get to that point) on earth of killing since an egg is potential, and 80% of ferilized eggs are washed out, sperm is potential, and millions die when a man..well you get the point. And with that idea, that apparently means cannibalism is involved in certain sexual situations.

A sperm will not develop into a human if left alone. Neither will an egg. However, after conception, a fetus will USUALLY. Again, a sperm will not develop into a human. Neither will an egg. Just like the arm, it will always be what it is.

 

Those instances you referenced are the minority. Why do those get to decide our course of action?

 

 

Mmkay, it just really seemed that that's what you were implying. :/ It's not like I don't feel remorse over these things. If you knew me, you would know that I'm one of the most emotional people that you could meet. But I am looking at this from a scientific standpoint; it doesn't mean I am indifferent to abortions and so on, because I really feel bad about them, but sometimes I just believe these things are needed. I am Christian as well. I do believe that people have souls. I just believe that having the soul be put into the body comes later on. And to me, that's when the body has the potential to think and feel.

 

I apologize, that's not what I meant

 

Alright, that's cool ^.^ We disagree. It's fine

 

 

As fun as this conversation has been, it's bedtime. I might pick back up in the morning.

Edited January 20, 2012 by philpot123

[Brite]

Mmkay, it just really seemed that that's what you were implying. :/

 

It's not like I don't feel remorse over these things. If you knew me, you would know that I'm one of the most emotional people that you could meet. But I am looking at this from a scientific standpoint; it doesn't mean I am indifferent to abortions and so on, because I really feel bad about them, but sometimes I just believe these things are needed.

 

I am Christian as well. I do believe that people have souls. I just believe that having the soul be put into the body comes later on. And to me, that's when the body has the potential to think and feel.

Same, to me, it's "The body is formed. When done forming, THEN life is breathed in" It wouldn't make sense to me if he would just waste souls by entering in conception since so many things can happen.

[BirdSpirit]

The fact that we can comprehend our own existence to be able to think that we are different speaks for something. Cogito ergo sum.

We can't be sure that animals couldn't do the same though. They are just incapable of communicating that to us through tests, etc.

 

The term you're looking for is pro-choice, unless you think that we should have more abortions than births

.

 

I thought those were interchangable. o.O Prochoice is simply a better way of phrasing it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by BirdSpirit

[Brite]

A sperm will not develop into a human if left alone. Neither will an egg. However, after conception, a fetus will USUALLY. Again, a sperm will not develop into a human. Neither will an egg. Just like the arm, it will always be what it is.

 

Those instances you referenced are the minority. Why do those get to decide our course of action?

 

Nada, a sperm WILL get to develope into a human. Like an egg. If they are given the POTENTIAL. Still accusing women of killing since you see it the conception way. Without potential, it would be a child. Since it can become other things than a child, it is not a life. But it's very much alive.

Edited January 20, 2012 by GhostChilli

[MellaBella]

I apologize, that's not what I meant

 

Alright, that's cool ^.^ We disagree. It's fine

 

 

As fun as this conversation has been, it's bedtime. I might pick back up in the morning.

Glad we were able to explain ourselves them. :3

 

And yes, Ghost, that's exactly how I feel. I'm glad I'm not alone, heheh.

[Shienvien]

Shienvien: i agree with your statement on pain for person hood though that is only one factor i look at.

There are people in the world who lack the ability to feel pain. So... = not a person? I don't think so.

 

I think you might have slightly misunderstood my point. Whether or not it is capable of feeling pain doesn't make a difference. It was merely the example someone else brought up that I used for further describing the concept of judging personhood based on general brain-development. (I spoke of having the nerve-endings that sense pain being inferior to the ability to acknowledge it, more specifically.)

 

And on the matter of animals - quite a few of them do have proper self-awareness.

[Keriel]

A female Kangaroo has the ability to abort a fetous that is ready to be born to the pouch, she will also abandon her developed young if circumstances aren't favorable.

we aren't kangaroos and don't have to live in the outback conditions which are quite frankly nothing short or cruel. and well a kangaroo can look after three different stages of young in one shot unborn, jelly bean baby and developed out of pouch young.

 

i have noidea what point that was going to make Owo I'm pro choice although i would like it if education on contraceptives was better :/ I use multiple methods to avoid falling pregnant because i trust none of them to stand alone.

if i was to fall pregnant i don't know what i would do because i myself don't want to have an abortion. i'd have to talk it through with my partner see if we could organize an adoptive home because i really don't like the adoption or foster home system (had a friend who went through it)

I can see both sides of the argument really i guess thats why i won't abort my self but have in the past encouraged others to do so. it is very complex debate and in my honest opinion neither side is wrong. but neither side is right either. theres just too much unknown at this stage.

[xhunter]

The proper response to that would be... so? A fetus is alive. Does having memories, ambitions, and relationships define what a person is? Because there are people in the world without some of those. Have they ceased to be persons?

 

 

But what makes a fetus different from a person? The ability to feel pain is the only thing you listed, and some "people" can't feel pain. What else is so inherently different? I'm not generalizing, I'm using exactly what you said.

those are only a few factors though those mainly shape how the person behaves and not much else. Memories helps humans and animals learn from their past as well as think of their futures and that of other important. ambitions help both have goals and dreams. relationships however they stem is for those that are born but they help with moral. though there are more things to the words i take in consideration more than one fact, i don't like one known fact for any subject. i guess to say that is what makes it so complex for me to think about i judge things like knowledge, development, dependence, Pain and how long it lasts, ect.

 

for the ones that lack these development i feel sorrow because they are stuck between dead and alive though ones that suffer only complete memory loss i don't distane too much because at least they have the ability to work their way up to living a second best thing from there first life though that really depends in the end.

 

and your point on some people lacking the ability to feel pain, that to me, is much different because they have relationships, ambitions, as well as memory, Independence, ect. one of the factors they lack is just pain so i would not way the odds that they are not a human and a animal.

 

i personaly lack emotions though that does not make me less than a human because i have knowledge and memories. i know that ex. is the reason that i lack even less than others because i ignore the short bursts of sexual interests that last only a few second. i admit that i have wished for a offspring threw conception though i ignore it because i know there are children that i can chose from in a adoption agency. and if i ever did get preg. and want the child i would have on interest in the male that gave the sperm because i would be just satisfying my wants, though that is where people mess up sometimes.

 

in america people only focus on their wants and not needs. there wants makes them venture into things that is not going to affect them, its just a statement so don't take any offence. lest use both abortion and maybe relationships as a example for this. but lest start with a relationship ex. friend and friends spouse are fighting and they break up, much cry from them both though Bob, random name, tries and get the two back together. it is none of the Bobs basic consern because it does not effect him. i know that people might think both that and abortion are diff when it comes to it, and i respect the diff., but i think that abortion should only concern those that need one and ones that want it encase anything bad happens to them and they have no other turning point.

 

the differences between a fetus and a person is not much of a argument, for me that is. i don't believe that they are any different though a person in my judgement would be someone that doesn't have to live off someone's body. i don't think that a puppy is not a dog because it holds the same gens and indicates dog, thus the same with humans.

 

abortion is not evil though it can hardly be considered a saint. our view comes from our religions and our knowledge or lack of knowledge. i'm the type of person that lives for facts and not myths though it is none of my concern what anyone else believes because there is always a logical ex. for what they believe even if its from a dusty old codex or and 'fixed and approved' new version of the same book that could be changed. though i guess that goes to show you that religion is that harbor of hopes and salvation.

 

but ya, back on subject abortions are sometimes needs and not wants. it would reduce the need for them if there was proper education on conception and it sometimes depresses me when people don't want to tell their children because 'its to embarrassing' or 'its none sense' or the one that annoys me most 'what's the use on telling them', i personalty don't like offspring giving birth to offspring when there is no independence plan and support for the child's offspring.

 

because most of the pres. canadates now days goes after wants and not needs i will not vote and if one wants to ban abortion i will never vote for because they will be stealing a females right to her body, plus i personalty think that it would be better if there was one female president and one male president because a male can't really tell what is best for a woman and vise versa.

 

with potential to be a child is not much leverage with me because it doesn't have anything on what will happen to the child and how much it will suffer in a system or feel when it knows its one of the causes that its parents are struggling to keep the bills payed. i could not look a orphan in the eye and tell them that they are lucky when they feel they want to end there own life. the only lucky ones in the systems that achieve there goal on suicide though that is sad that a child so young has to make that decision. it speaks more from the vast number of children that try and end there life because people only want to adopt the prefect little child. i would rather have abortions so that the ones that end up in the systems do not have to make the decision to kill themselves after all there years off suffering.

 

note that i don't mean to offend by any of this and sorry to those if it does offend you. i have a odd perspective on things.

 

 

[Kai]

A female Kangaroo has the ability to abort a fetous that is ready to be born to the pouch, she will also abandon her developed young if circumstances aren't favorable.

we aren't kangaroos and don't have to live in the outback conditions which are quite frankly nothing short or cruel. and well a kangaroo can look after three different stages of young in one shot unborn, jelly bean baby and developed out of pouch young.

 

i have noidea what point that was going to make

Well it means that abortion cannot be said to be 'unnatural' or 'interefering with nature' because in nature abortion (egg layers sometimes break em on purpose lol) and infanticide are both common.

[Lila]

 

 

 

Yes I am a Christian. I believe what separates us from animals is being made in God's image and possessing a soul.

 

I fail to see how the potential for badness gives us the right to take a life.

Because it isn't guaranteed that it will be a human, and even if ut was, it wouldn't be guaranteed to be a human beneficial to society. So if the mother cannot support the child, then why put that burden on both her and the child, as well as the adoption system?

[Brite]

Yes I am a Christian. I believe what separates us from animals is being made in God's image and possessing a soul.

 

I fail to see how the potential for badness gives us the right to take a life.

 

I fail to see how he'd waste a soul from potential. Soul passing to me takes place at first breath. Breath of life. Idk about you, but that makes so much more sense to me.

[hazeh]

I fail to see how he'd waste a soul from potential. Soul passing to me takes place at first breath. Breath of life. Idk about you, but that makes so much more sense to me.

Makes a lot more sense to me. There are so many "babies" that get reabsorbed into the mother's womb for no reason, just like my mom's fetus just this past year. Many of them have complications and degrade or become something non-human. That's why it doesn't make any sense at all for there to be a soul upon the fertilization of an egg- much less trying to treat a zygote as an equal to a fully developed or developed enough to survive outside the womb baby.