Abortion

[graves]

That chance of that baby not having been you is an extremely high number. If the probability was anything else, you shouldn't exist, really. I'm talking one in millions. In addition to that, if your biological mom had done it any other month, it wouldn't be you. If it had been some other match in those millions of factors, you still wouldn't exist, abortion or not.

 

A fetus is not a person. You cannot think of a lump of cells as a future best friend or something like that, because they are simply a lump of cells. Even for this lump of cells, there is still a good chance it won't continue growing. Things like miscarriages are more than uncommon.

That's something I don't get. A lot of people say 'a lump of cells'. Yeah but those cells eventually become us. If a miscarriage happens than we don't live, but if it doesn't it does become us. You, me we were all once 'a lump of cells'.

 

 

[k80]

If teens have sex then they should know the consequences and take responsibility. Having and abortion because 'oops we didn't use protection', or 'oops it just happened' is not alright.

 

Thoughts?

"If teens have sex then they should know the consequences and take responsibility."

 

Yet, at least in America where I am, the same people who don't want teens to have abortions and to take that responsibility are very often the same people who support abstinence-only sex education and don't want teens educated about that responsibility and those consequences. AND they often shame teens who are pregnant and DO decide to keep the baby rather than give them the support they need and deserve.

[St. Jimmy]

I've seen a lot of 11 year olds have a baby willingly and keep their child and be completely healthy.

Where do you live that 11 year olds are financially, emotionally, and physically able to have a child?

 

Also, just a note, octuple posting is heavily frowned upon here. That's what the edit button is for.

[graves]

"If teens have sex then they should know the consequences and take responsibility."

 

Yet, at least in America where I am, the same people who don't want teens to have abortions and to take that responsibility are very often the same people who support abstinence-only sex education and don't want teens educated about that responsibility and those consequences. AND they often shame teens who are pregnant and DO decide to keep the baby rather than give them the support they need and deserve.

I understand when you say there is a lack of sexual education in school, I've certainly been surprised many times when my own classmates didn't know about their menstrual cycle. But..

 

Where are the parents?

 

 

[St. Jimmy]

Where are the parents?

Many of them are extremely religious and feel that sex education is inappropriate. Mine were that way, and I was lucky my school had a good sex ed program and it was required.

[graves]

Where do you live that 11 year olds are financially, emotionally, and physically able to have a child?

 

Also, just a note, octuple posting is heavily frowned upon here. That's what the edit button is for.

I'm living in Peru. That's what I'm teling you though. They aren't financially able to have a child. Emotionally? Depends on the child. Some are way more mature then some adults I've ever met, and those are the ones that run away from home because they aren't allowed to have the baby. One girl came to us having been raped by her uncle. She was 15 at the time, and she wanted to have the baby at all costs.

 

And physically? The body of a woman is ready the moment of their first period, because it's when they start to ovulate... (note: english is not my first language so I don't know if you call it that) In past cultures, their first period would already make them a woman and ready to have children.

 

Octuple posting?

[k80]

I understand when you say there is a lack of sexual education in school, I've certainly been surprised many times when my own classmates didn't know about their menstrual cycle. But..

 

Where are the parents?

Not everyone lives in a home with two parents who give them comprehensive sex education and are super involved in their lives.

[Bleuberries]

I understand when you say there is a lack of sexual education in school, I've certainly been surprised many times when my own classmates didn't know about their menstrual cycle. But..

 

Where are the parents?

I've NEVER EVER heard someone say "I'm bleeding for 4-7 days out of every month...what's going on?!" How young are these kids? My youngest friend started her period at 12 (6th grade) and even if they don't teach the sex then children do know about their periods (that is basic biology). I had a video that literally went over puberty and wasn't part of sex ed.

 

If there aren't parents around, then there is their friends and the internet. I learned more about sex from my friends than anything.

 

Also, I've never had someone say "Let's NOT use a condom tonight At least in two months we can go to a clinic and get an abortion for $500." Logic?

[Brite]

But you don't know that. How many people have risen from the worst of the worst situations and come out happier than most who always had an apple-pie live? I've read an emotional biography about a child who was sold as a slave since he was born. He escaped and now runs a charity for other slaves and is very happy to be doing something to help others.

 

We don't get to decide who lives and dies. We just don't know what their future might hold.

Lessee, only 3-4 percent get adopted. More than half commit suicide. I'm pretty sure I do know. I don't know EVERYTHING ShinyTomato does but she has many different unique stories that shows that we can't force life into one. It's just as bad as taking one, if not worse by the way things are today.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GhostChilli

[k80]

I've NEVER EVER heard someone say "I'm bleeding for 4-7 days out of every month...what's going on?!" How young are these kids? My youngest friend started her period at 12 (6th grade) and even if they don't teach the sex then children do know about their periods (that is basic biology). I had a video that literally went over puberty and wasn't part of sex ed.

 

If there aren't parents around, then there is their friends and the internet. I learned more about sex from my friends than anything.

 

Also, I've never had someone say "Let's NOT use a condom tonight At least in two months we can go to a clinic and get an abortion for $500." Logic?

You may not have, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. I have a friend whose mom died when she was very young, her dad worked to support them and she had to take care of her younger brother. When she first got her period she thought she was dying. She cried in her room all day. That was in 5th grade, before we learned about periods in school, and she was the first of our friends to get hers.

 

I have another friend who taught in Africa with the Peace Corps, and while many of the women she worked with understood somewhat what a period was, they didn't know it was at all related to pregnancy.

 

What I'm trying to say is that your experience isn't universal. There ARE people who really don't know about some of these things, at no fault of their own.

[_Z_]

Please do not double, triple post use the edit tool.

Thank you.

[Bleuberries]

You may not have, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.  I have a friend whose mom died when she was very young, her dad worked to support them and she had to take care of her younger brother.  When she first got her period she thought she was dying. She cried in her room all day. That was in 5th grade, before we learned about periods in school, and she was the first of our friends to get hers.

 

I have another friend who taught in Africa with the Peace Corps, and while many of the women she worked with understood somewhat what a period was, they didn't know it was at all related to pregnancy.

 

What I'm trying to say is that your experience isn't universal. There ARE people who really don't know about some of these things, at no fault of their own.

But at least she was taught it. I thought the same thing about my period and I didn't have my mom around (I was home alone) when I got mine and freaked out. But that's the 5th grade. How many 5th graders do you know going around having tons of unprotected sex? But you have to admit that at some point in time they do learn that their periods exist HERE.

 

I can't speak for the People in Africa since there is all kinds of lack of every kind of education among women in those countries (2nd and 3rd world countries)

Edited January 30, 2012 by Bleuberries

[St. Jimmy]

And physically? The body of a woman is ready the moment of their first period, because it's when they start to ovulate... (note: english is not my first language so I don't know if you call it that) In past cultures, their first period would already make them a woman and ready to have children.

I've been told by several doctors that if I ever carried to term, I would probably die or have serious complications because of the way my pelvic bone developed, unhealthily low weight, and several other factors. Yet I have periods. Ovulation does not necessarily mean the rest of your body is ready to support a child for 9 months.

[7Deadly$ins]

That's something I don't get. A lot of people say 'a lump of cells'. Yeah but those cells eventually become us. If a miscarriage happens than we don't live, but if it doesn't it does become us. You, me we were all once 'a lump of cells'.

Sure, but we grew past that stage. While we're still in that stage, we are, indeed, a lump of cells that would never know the difference.

 

And just because someone is ovulating doesn't mean their body is actually ready. Puberty is occurring earlier and earlier for girls, to the point that very young pregnancies can be very dangerous for these girls.

[Brite]

And physically? The body of a woman is ready the moment of their first period, because it's when they start to ovulate... (note: english is not my first language so I don't know if you call it that) In past cultures, their first period would already make them a woman and ready to have children.

 

Periods certainly do NOT mean that your whole body is ready to support a pregnancy. It's just the shedding of the lining. My father's friend has normal cycles but with her condition, her she WOULD die from the stress on the body of being pregnant.

[Slaskia]

In regards to parents and sex education: there's a LOT of parents that simply don't want to give their kids 'the talk'. A big reason I think is embarassment (sex is a big 'taboo' subject, at least in the USA), but also fear. Fear that their little darling is growing up too fast and will soon leave the nest. And yet many of these same parents cry foul about schools teaching kids this stuff, saying its something the parents themselves should teach them (again, at least in the USA).

 

Then of course there's the 'abstinance only' crowd. Sure, telling them to wait is fine and dandy, but they need to know about the rest of the stuff when the time comes (and that time will come).

 

Anyway, since the thread was wiped since the last time I gave my stance on the main topic at hand:

 

Pro-choice...and will likely remain so until these things are fixed (again, USA, I know things are likly different in other countries...):

 

- Foster care gets an overhall that weeds out all the greedy people that are in it just for the money they get from the govenment (and don't give a damn about the kids themselves).

- Adoptions centers stop being so picky on who can adopt what (like homosexuals!)

- Women that know without a shadow of a doubt that they never, ever want to have kids (ME!) are allowed to have themseles sterlized without needing to be 35 and already have kids.

 

Granted, even if those kinds of changes did happen, I'd likely stay pro-choice.

[k80]

I feel like we're getting off topic here.

 

Not that the topic we're on now isn't relevant, but I also think we're not addressing it the right way. We're debating things that are a part of the conversation but I realized I don't fully know where anyone I've been talking to stands on the issue of abortion.

 

I am pro-choice. I believe there are many, many reasons women have abortions, and they are all valid reasons. I believe that in the US, where I live, there are many socio-economic problems that lead to abortions and that making abortion illegal will not be nearly as effective in cutting down the amount of abortions as, instead, addressing those issues.

 

Which is, of course, what I think everyone wants. Less abortions because babies come into this world wanted and mothers have their babies in a supportive and healthy environment.

 

Why are women being vilified instead of the real problems being addressed, the problems the lead people to seek abortions? Why is there a crusade to end outlaw abortion (in the US, again, since I only know what is going on here) and yet support programs for single mothers, funding for education, etc, is all being cut? When will people see women who get abortions as real people and not "****s who use abortion as birth control"?

 

I am pro-choice, but not because I support abortion. Because I support women.

[Rosedamai]

And physically? The body of a woman is ready the moment of their first period, because it's when they start to ovulate... (note: english is not my first language so I don't know if you call it that) In past cultures, their first period would already make them a woman and ready to have children.

Many of those women also died from giving birth. Is that what you want to happen? Some of my friends have had their first period when they were ten. That does not mean that they would havr been able to carry a child to term at that age. I can go on about horror stories and spcial factors relating to why women in the past had kids when they were young, but I think that's off topic. But I must mention that I think it is inappropriate to enforce the standards of another time and age on a more enlighted period of time.

[Kestra15]

Also, it's silly to go around telling people to qualify their statements with "I believe" or "I think". Obviously, if somebody makes a statement, it's their opinion (unless they qualify it otherwise). Imagine reading my post if every sentence began with "I think..." It'd be awful and superfluous.

No, it's not.

 

A fetus is not a person.

That is a statement. Nothing there to indicate if that is a statement of opinion, or statement of fact, but it is worded as if it is a fact. It is not a fact, it is an opinion, and it is important in any debate to differentiate between the two.

 

Until there is a scientific census, no-one can definitively define a fetus as a person or not. Therefore it is opinion and thus should be prefixed/suffixed as such.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Kestra15

[potterwolf]

No, it's not.

 

 

That is a statement. Nothing there to indicate if that is a statement of opinion, or statement of fact, but it is worded as if it is a fact. It is not a fact, it is an opinion, and it is important in any debate to differentiate between the two.

 

Until there is a scientific census, no-one can definitively define a fetus as a person or not. Therefore it is opinion and thus should be prefixed/suffixed as such.

I still think that it's silly to expect all opinions to be clearly marked. I don't think it's necessary. I think it makes more sense to mark facts as facts, and everything else is obviously just an opinion. But whatever. The more substantial part of my earlier post was the part where I objected to you questioning women caring for their unborn children, but it's funny that this side topic was the one that is getting discussed.

 

I think the bigger problem with the statement "A fetus is not a person" is not that it lacks a qualifying "I believe" but that it doesn't define what a "person" is. That's the big issue. Because depending on your definition a fetus could most certainly be a person or most certainly not be a person. With extreme definitions, the statement could be an accepted fact, although I'm not claiming the OP intended to use such a definition. They probably did not. I'm just saying.

[babybluefire]

And physically? The body of a woman is ready the moment of their first period, because it's when they start to ovulate... (note: english is not my first language so I don't know if you call it that) In past cultures, their first period would already make them a woman and ready to have children.

Women are hitting puberty earlier and earlier because of hormones and chemicals in our food and drink. Formula fed baby girls are far more likely to hit puberty early then their breastfed counterparts. The major problem with this is that their reproductive organs are maturing faster then the rest of their bodies. Bones, circulatory system, digestive system and kidneys are just a few things.

 

 

My identical twin sister and I are the perfect example of this. We were both bottle fed and started menstruating at ten years old. We were both under 5 foot and under 100 pounds at the start of menstruation. My twin sister got pregnant at 16 and had her daughter. She stopped growing at 5 foot. I went to school, got married and later had my first baby at the age of 23. I was 5 foot 2 then. A few year later I can my second baby at 27. By 27 I had grown to 5 foot 4 inches.

 

 

My twin sisters first labor took over 72 hours of torture, she had gestational diabetes and high blood pressure despite being in good weight and health. My first labor was just over 6 hours and extremely easy, in fact my whole pregnancy's are easy. I don't even have morning sickness. Having a baby even at 16 was developmentally bad for my twin. If she had gotten pregnant at 10 when we first started menstruating their is no way her body could have handled it.

 

 

And in the pro abstinence cultures in the US there is NO SEX EDUCATION. There is no body education, there is no pregnancy education. My own husband came from such a home. He had no clue how or what type of birth control to use. He had no clue about a menstrual cycle other then being told it was "icky". My husband knew so little about anatomy that he honestly thought women urinated out of their vagina's. We were 21 and 23 when we got married, we had both been living outside of our parents home for years before we even meet. I totally see and understand how there are so many surprise pregnancy's among teenagers. Their parents totally fail at teaching them necessary life information.

[Kestra15]

I still think that it's silly to expect all opinions to be clearly marked. I don't think it's necessary.

It is a basics of debating.

[potterwolf]

It is a basics of debating.

But this isn't a formal debate. It's a discussion. I think of it more like a conversation.

 

But the point is that we all know what the person meant when they said "a fetus is not a person" and I thought that what you replied was a cheap shot that didn't address the point they were making. But this is so far off, that it hardly matters.

 

I agree that a fetus is not a person if we are defining "person" as a conscious, individual human being. However, if "person" means a human organism, then a fetus is a person. I don't see why it matters particularly whether we call it a person or not if we don't define it accurately.

[Brite]

Until there is a scientific census, no-one can definitively define a fetus as a person or not.

 

A fetus is alive. Alive with cells that can turn into tumors, calcium masses, and parasitic twins, like Telilithia's(shiny) twin, and be reabsorbed. Even as a fetus. Someone here said this happened to their mother. Cells do not indicate personhood.

[Kestra15]

A fetus is alive. Alive with cells that can turn into tumors, calcium masses, and parasitic twins, like Telilithia's(shiny) twin, and be reabsorbed. Even as a fetus. Someone here said this happened to their mother. Cells do not indicate personhood.

No, but as there is no concrete definition as to what defines a 'person,' nor consensus as to whether a fetus is 'alive' or possess a soul (by 'soul' here I use it as a catch-all word to indicate whatever those indefinable qualities are that make someone/thing 'alive' or 'a person), then it cannot be said for certain if a fetus is/isn't alive/a person.

 

But this isn't a formal debate. It's a discussion. I think of it more like a conversation.

Even in an informal debate there needs to be a clear definition between an opinion and a fact, especially in a debate of this nature which is based as much around a person's personal feelings on the matter than scientific theory. In anything you say you should define there being a difference between the two, else confusion will spring up. If someone cannot be bothered to do so, expect their arguments to be ignored or deconstructed - if you try to pass something of as a fact (intentionally or accidentally) and their point is based on that statement, pointing out that their initial statement is incorrect or cannot be supported empirically debases their entire point rather quickly and any further potentially-valid points may be ignored because of that initial mistake. Think of it as a 'proof by contradiction.'

 

So if you [general] want to be taken even semi-seriously then it is best to avoid this particular pitfall. Because once you try to pass something off in that manner and get called on it, your credibility takes a heck of a hit from your opponents and potentially spectators.