Abortion

[Lila]

No, but if several people decided to set aside their self-centered motives to just help "some" kids, then pretty soon the amount would grow from "some" to "many".

Not necessarily true.

[babybluefire]

Speaking from the experence of a women who has had several chemical pregnancys ~ no baby developed past the first day or so of cell devision but the sack continued to grow. In the first few weeks there is NOTHING identfiable as a human, a baby or even an fetus. Even considering I was raised catholic I never considered myself pregnant until the 8 or 10 week ultra sound and a viable heart beat was heard.

 

 

edit to add.

 

my spouse and I seriously looked into adoption. We couldnt afford the 50grand plus mothers expenses up front fee at the time. There is no such thing as a loving caring adoption agency, they are still selling babies for a profit. Dh and I would have been willing and still would be to adopt a house full of children if the laws and fees were not so insane.

Edited December 29, 2011 by babybluefire

[xhunter]

If killing and stealing are instinctively wrong, then why is our crime rate growing? Also, when Christianity and family values were more prominant in this country, the crime was lower. People didn't worry so much about safety precautions like walking alone or being in dimly lit areas. If we are constantly advancing, then why is our crime rate increasing with us?

it is because we advance as a race that these problems happen. humans are probably the only race that kills its own kind for pleasure. humans think of more ways to kill each other when it can be placed else where. when there is more humans in one area people are less likely to know each other by name making crime easier. Christian values have not been around forever and your only thinking of the people affected by christian values.

 

if you ask other cultures Older people they would call Christians demons because Christians in the past have been responsible for killing those that did not share there beliefs. and like most people said here already the crime would go up if abortion is band, as well as more deaths of the females and their offspring.

[Zephyrgirl]

Not necessarily true.

Can you specify how this is not true?

[xhunter]

Not necessarily true.

i would agree. even if this happened, if abortion was outlawed then offspring, if the mother did not kill themselves, would soon outnumber any possible adult within a few years.

[Cleo]

Zephyrgirl, I understand you're planning on helping out some of the kids, but the thing is, you can't help out ALL of them. There's not enough room. And that's pretty much the answer to it all, there's just not enough and I don't know if there will ever be a time where there WILL be enough. Outlaw abortion and this problem's growth will nearly triple (probably more) in progress since there's about a million abortions performed a year. Now imagine abortion being outlawed and making sure that women are forced to the terms. That's over a million unborn babies thrown into the system a year. I say this because some women will go to desperate measures to get rid of a pregnancy.

 

Thinking that a child should be born, even if they will starve is much more "evil" in my books than getting rid of it before it even exists yet.

^ Totally truth.

Letting all the children born ---> More green parts of Earth gettin destroyed just for building homes for the growing population---> Population which will use even more cars and other things which destroys Earths ozon layer --> Earths Death: ozon layer fully destroyed so Sun easily burns our planet.

[skinst]

I, also, am a little upset over the fact that many of you believe that religion shouldn't be used in arguments. The Bible is the basis of my beliefs and it is the reason why I am anti-abortion. As to whether the Bible is a solid foundation to pull arguments from, that is an entirely different debate altogether.

I find that interesting, considering your Bible has abortion in it and is used.

 

Numbers 5:12-14

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: If any man's wife go aside, and act unfaithfully against him, and a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, she being defiled secretly, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken in the act; and the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled in conception; or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled in conception;... [skipping some of it which just explains about the offering)

 

Numbers 5: 16-24

And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before HaShem. And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water. And the priest shall set the woman before HaShem, and let the hair of the woman's head go loose, and put the meal-offering of memorial in her hands, which is the meal-offering of jealousy; and the priest shall have in his hand the water of bitterness that causeth the curse against fruit of the womb.

And the priest shall cause her to swear, and shall say unto the woman: 'If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness, being under thy husband, be thou free from this water of bitterness that causeth the curse;

but if thou hast gone aside, being under thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee besides thy husband--and be by him then the priest shall cause the woman to swear with the oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman--the HaShem make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when HaShem doth make thy thigh to fall away, and thy belly to swell; and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, and make thy belly to swell, and thy fruit to fall away'; and the woman shall say: 'Amen, Amen.'

And the priest shall write these curses in a scroll, and he shall blot them out into the water of bitterness.

And he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that causeth the curse; and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter.

 

[blah blah ritual]

 

Numbers 5:27

And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, if she be defiled, and have acted unfaithfully against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her fruit shall fall away in blood; and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

 

It's pretty cut and dry explanation about "Hey, the herbs used to consecrate the temple are abortifacents, and here's how you induce herbal abortion if someone cheats,"

FYI, that's a direct translation from the Hebrew Bible, so it's far more accurate than the other english translations.

 

So quite frankly, using your Christian beliefs as a means to say abortion is wrong is actually wrong in of itself.

 

Also I'd like to add that many Christians believe it is their right to have children, and are part of a large percentage who either forbid birth control or sabotage it? Also they are the ones who glorify the 'abstinence only' education, completely ignoring the fact that almost a 1/4 of woman who have abortions are MARRIED.

 

If killing and stealing are instinctively wrong, then why is our crime rate growing? Also, when Christianity and family values were more prominant in this country, the crime was lower. People didn't worry so much about safety precautions like walking alone or being in dimly lit areas. If we are constantly advancing, then why is our crime rate increasing with us?

The crime rate growing has NOTHING to do with Christian values and EVERYTHING to do with the stresses of modern life.

 

Your arguement is coming across as rather confusing. First you say abortion is wrong and then you turn around and say that we should solve all the issues that come before abortion before we outlaw it.

 

You do realise that, as long as people have twisted minds and believe the things they do that rape, molestation and such will continue to happen? Not without completely changing the education system in the countries and also making sure all immigrants are given a good run down of the laws of the country they're entering will even put a dent in lessening these things.

 

Abortion is nessacary in this world. Sad but the cold, hard, TRUTH.

Edited December 29, 2011 by skinst

[silver_rain]

If killing and stealing are instinctively wrong, then why is our crime rate growing? Also, when Christianity and family values were more prominant in this country, the crime was lower. People didn't worry so much about safety precautions like walking alone or being in dimly lit areas. If we are constantly advancing, then why is our crime rate increasing with us?

Actually, the crime rate isn't growing. At least not in the US. According to the FBI, crime rates have been decreasing over time.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime...les/10tbl01.xls

 

The thing that's growing is media exposure to crimes, which makes people think that there's a lot more violence than there actually is.

 

Now, granted, this probably isn't true universally, but I don't have any numbers for other countries, so I can't say for sure.

 

And, just so that this post is at least somewhat on-topic, I support abortion. In my eyes, it's much better to keep abortion legal, and to have the procedures done by actual doctors, than to make it illegal and force desperate women to have to undergo other, more dangerous, procedures.

[Brite]

FYI, that's a direct translation from the Hebrew Bible, so it's far more accurate than the other english translations.

 

So quite frankly, using your Christian beliefs as a means to say abortion is wrong is actually wrong in of itself.

 

Also I'd like to add that many Christians believe it is their right to have children, and are part of a large percentage who either forbid birth control or sabotage it? Also they are the ones who glorify the 'abstinence only' education, completely ignoring the fact that almost a 1/4 of woman who have abortions are MARRIED.

 

Most of the religious pro-birthers use the New Testimate that has things taken out and new stuff put in. Apparently, abortion being wrong was put in the New testimate. This is why I only read the Old Testimate because it's not tampered with.

 

 

[skinst]

To me that just fuels the fire. If people are going to use their religion in debates, they need to acknowledge ALL of it, not just the parts that fit their agenda.

[Zephyrgirl]

Actually the "bitter water" those passages are referring to contained nothing more than dust from the tabernacle floor and was thought to bring a curse. It was not abortion. This act was more symbolic than effective in ridding the mother of her offspring.

 

Most of the religious pro-birthers use the New Testimate that has things taken out and new stuff put in. Apparently, abortion being wrong was put in the New testimate. This is why I only read the Old Testimate because it's not tampered with.

How do you know that the parts about abortion were only added into the New Testament? Also the New Testament is the basis of Christianity, if you only believe the Old Testament, how are you a Christian?

Edited December 30, 2011 by NixAyum

[Brite]

How do you know that the parts about abortion were only added into the New Testament? Also the New Testament is the basis of Christianity, if you only believe the Old Testament, how are you a Christian?

Because some of the New Testimate passages can't even get it's own bs straight. My friend's all have new testimate passages from the same bibles that relate to abortion in order and each one of them is different and shows a different meaning. I'm certainly not Jewish. I just prefer untouched passages.

 

Edit: Don't double post, it isn't healthy.

Edited December 30, 2011 by GhostChilli

[Obscure_Trash]

As a mod note, while we prefer users didn't double post, we are trying to be more lenient, so as long as someone isn't quadruple posting all over the place or anything, it's fine. Please remember to use the report function in the future.

[Zephyrgirl]

As a mod note, while we prefer users didn't double post, we are trying to be more lenient, so as long as someone isn't quadruple posting all over the place or anything, it's fine. Please remember to use the report function in the future.

Okay, thanks for informing me. I didn't realize we weren't supposed to double post.

[TikindiDragon]

Actually the "bitter water" those passages are referring to contained nothing more than dust from the tabernacle floor and was thought to bring a curse. It was not abortion. This act was more symbolic than effective in ridding the mother of her offspring.

Noble went into this. The dust from the tabernacle floor contained burnt incense, which is an abortificant. They *knew* it was an abortificant as well.

 

Those quotes skinst posted are from a practising Jew. Who, I gotta say, knows her Old Testament far, far better than you or I ever could because she can read it in the original language.

[CatCreature]

Actually, I would be more than happy to answer that question . I don't have a family right now, but one of the main reasons I want one is so that I can adopt. I also am very interested in starting a therapeutic riding program with horses just for kids in our foster care system. To put it simply, I would jump at the chance to love and care for any child that has been put up for adoption.

Kudos to you for wanting to help those unwanted kids in the future, I mean it. But I can't help but wonder what you're doing for them right now.

[prairiecrow]

To put it simply, I would jump at the chance to love and care for any child that has been put up for adoption.

Including the crack babies, the mentally retarded, the profoundly physically disabled (ie, not able to feed themselves or go to the bathroom without your constant assistance), the ones with severe ADD and other behavioural issues?

 

If you took two or three of those under your roof I'd be impressed. If not, then I'd have to seriously question your "any child" claim.

[Zephyrgirl]

Including the crack babies, the mentally retarded, the profoundly physically disabled (ie, not able to feed themselves or go to the bathroom without your constant assistance), the ones with severe ADD and other behavioural issues?

 

If you took two or three of those under your roof I'd be impressed. If not, then I'd have to seriously question your "any child" claim.

Yes, I would and I'm not just saying that with no experience. I currently baby sit a mentally handicapped girl. Even though she can't speak and needs assistance in a lot things, I can truly say that the experience has been one of the most rewarding out of all the things I've done.

[Kestra15]

Yes, I would and I'm not just saying that with no experience. I currently baby sit a mentally handicapped girl. Even though she can't speak and needs assistance in a lot things, I can truly say that the experience has been one of the most rewarding out of all the things I've done.

Babysitting and raising are two very different ball-games. I do believe it's a good thing you babysit and would like to think you could raise a 'difficult child,' but just take a look at your sittee's parents for five minutes, outside from your own perspective, and have a little look at the strain and toll it takes.

[Zephyrgirl]

Babysitting and raising are two very different ball-games. I do believe it's a good thing you babysit and would like to think you could raise a 'difficult child,' but just take a look at your sittee's parents for five minutes, outside from your own perspective, and have a little look at the strain and toll it takes.

I see your point and I admit that it would be difficult, but life is full of challenges and I would sooner rise up and face them, giving a child the love they deserve, rather then sitting back and being whimp, doing nothing just because it's too hard.

[skinst]

I see your point and I admit that it would be difficult, but life is full of challenges and I would sooner rise up and face them, giving a child the love they deserve, rather then sitting back and being whimp, doing nothing just because it's too hard.

I admire your courage, but I think you're missing something important: Not everyone is like you.

 

And you and other pro-birther's still want to force that burden onto woman who aren't as equipped as you are for dealing with things like that.

[hazeh]

I admire your courage, but I think you're missing something important: Not everyone is like you.

 

And you and other pro-birther's still want to force that burden onto woman who aren't as equipped as you are for dealing with things like that.

Or, the people who are like Zephyr, are families that aren't recognized by the adoption agencies.

I.e., gay couples.

 

Thank god we live in California, or else my two moms wouldn't have been able to adopt my little sister, who has Cerebral Palsy, a heart defect, hearing loss, numerous food allergies, mental delays, and is quite small due to failure to thrive in the womb. Both of my moms are registered nurses and this beautiful girl has blossomed into a great kid because of the care we give to her. Unlike her straight parents, who wanted absolutely nothing to do with her because "she wasn't right".

 

But the fact of the matter is, the adoption agencies are far too picky for their own good and a good portion of the people who seek to adopt want the perfect little baby. Because of this, unfortunately, kids who don't meet the criteria don't get adopted because parent's who don't meet the standards can't adopt them.

[Brite]

I admire your courage, but I think you're missing something important: Not everyone is like you.

 

And you and other pro-birther's still want to force that burden onto woman who aren't as equipped as you are for dealing with things like that.

Might be because they think that there's no such thing as phobia's of pregnancy or children or no such things as accidents or rape. They only believe in women being irresponsible or evil, and should deal with it.

[Zephyrgirl]

Might be because they think that there's no such thing as phobia's of pregnancy or children or no such things as accidents or rape. They only believe in women being irresponsible or evil, and should deal with it.

First off, I will start by saying I'm not looking to force any one to do anything for my own binefit, merely trying to stand up for those who have no voice to defend themselves. I believe in giving everyone a chance at life and was just wanting to voice that.

Secondly, I acknowledge that not every one feels they can handle a mentally disabled child, I'm merely pointing out that there are those who will take them in and love them.

Ghostchilli, you overestimate my naivity. I am well aware of these problems and, no I don't blame the mothers for their situation. Most anti-abortionists that I know realize these issues and are sympathetic in dealing with it. However, there are other answers besides abortion, in my opinion. There are several organizations run by anti-abortionists dedicated to helping mothers in various situations, not just rape.

[Kestra15]

I see your point and I admit that it would be difficult, but life is full of challenges and I would sooner rise up and face them, giving a child the love they deserve, rather then sitting back and being whimp, doing nothing just because it's too hard.

And what I'm saying is that, with the best will in the world, most people who care long-term will at some point question their ability to love.

 

And thank you for being so insulting, by the way. You may not see it, but calling us 'wimps' and saying we 'do nothing' because we find life 'too hard' is quite the insult. Just because I have no interest in raising kids - and especially do not feel I could look after one with additional needs - does not make me a 'wimp;' if you would like to see what I'm capable of, feel free to come onto the Intensive Care Unit where I'm a nurse, or out into the nightclubs where I work as a medic.