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Zephyrgirl

I'm going to ask you the same questions I ask all pro-birthers that pops into this thread; How many kids have YOU yourself adopted? Or, if not adopted, helped financially, medically and given them necessities, food, clothes, time and love?

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Zephyrgirl

I'm going to ask you the same questions I ask all pro-birthers that pops into this thread; How many kids have YOU yourself adopted? Or, if not adopted, helped financially, medically and given them necessities, food, clothes, time and love?

Actually, I would be more than happy to answer that question biggrin.gif . I don't have a family right now, but one of the main reasons I want one is so that I can adopt. I also am very interested in starting a therapeutic riding program with horses just for kids in our foster care system. To put it simply, I would jump at the chance to love and care for any child that has been put up for adoption.

As for every one else, I see that we have extremely differing views. However, I believe every one has a right to state their opinion without it being torn down with words like "rediculous". I was merely stating where I stood, and apologize if I offended any one.

I, also, am a little upset over the fact that many of you believe that religion shouldn't be used in arguments. The Bible is the basis of my beliefs and it is the reason why I am anti-abprtion. As to whether the Bible is a solid foundation to pull arguments from, that is an entirely different debate altogether.

Edited by Zephyrgirl

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I, also, am a little upset over the fact that many of you believe that religion shouldn't be used in arguments. The Bible is the basis of my beliefs and it is the reason why I am pro-life. As to whether the Bible is a solid foundation to pull arguments from, that is an entirely different debate altogether.

that is the best reason not to have it. their are many religions and if one takes power it drowns the others out. many a war has been fought over beliefs, your beliefs or mine can't be used when it comes to making those laws because it will make thousands of others made. i'm atheist by the way. the best way to remove or just prevent most fighting is by keeping both religion and gov away from each other. science and religion don't mix for certain reasons. wink.gif

 

America most defiantly need to keep them away because of the vast majority of cultures that it has. its not that religion shouldn't be used in arguments as long as they have facts and science supporting it.

 

just remember, every holy book, bible, from the time of the first splinter giving codex is based on myths that have been whispered threw the years by people that probably did not see or witness any of the advents. laugh.gif

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Actually, I would be more than happy to answer that question biggrin.gif . I don't have a family right now, but one of the main reasons I want one is so that I can adopt. I also am very interested in starting a therapeutic riding program with horses just for kids in our foster care system. To put it simply, I would jump at the chance to love and care for any child that has been put up for adoption.

As for every one else, I see that we have extremely differing views. However, I believe every one has a right to state their opinion without it being torn down with words like "rediculous". I was merely stating where I stood, and apologize if I offended any one.

I, also, am a little upset over the fact that many of you believe that religion shouldn't be used in arguments. The Bible is the basis of my beliefs and it is the reason why I am pro-life. As to whether the Bible is a solid foundation to pull arguments from, that is an entirely different debate altogether.

Good to hear that you have some solid plans to actually help unwanted children! So many pro-birthers seem to completely lose interest in the welfare of the fetus once it's actually born.

 

As for not using religion in arguments... there's a very good reason for this: Christian arguments, unless you're speaking to another Christian, are often meaningless. For example, as a Wiccan I find arguments from the Bible no more persuasive than arguments from a Batman comic. (I'm not saying they're equivalent; what I'm pointing out is that to me the Bible is as irrelevant as any other fictional world. I respect your opinion that it's relevant to you, but any argument based upon it just has me going: "... and? Or is that all you've got?")

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that is the best reason not to have it. their are many religions and if one takes power it drowns the others out. many a war has been fought over beliefs, your beliefs or mine can't be used when it comes to making those laws because it will make thousands of others made. i'm atheist by the way. the best way to remove or just prevent most fighting is by keeping both religion and gov away from each other. science and religion don't mix for certain reasons. wink.gif

 

America most defiantly need to keep them away because of the vast majority of cultures that it has. its not that religion shouldn't be used in arguments as long as they have facts and science supporting it.

 

just remember, every holy book, bible, from the time of the first splinter giving codex is based on myths that have been whispered threw the years by people that probably did not see or witness any of the advents. laugh.gif

Actually, America was founded on Christian principles, so it is my belief that we were meant to be a Christian country. Second of all, could science prove spontaneous generation? For years people believed in this because it was "scientifically proven."

Secondly, did you see the world begin? Was Charles Darwin there to witness evolution play out as he wrote down his theories? Atheism takes just as much faith as Christianity does.

However, this is somewhat off the topic of abortion, though heavily connected.

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Actually, America was founded on Christian principles, so it is my belief that we were meant to be a Christian country.

I suggest you look up "the Treaty of Tripoli" (1797), which clearly states that America was NOT a Christian nation. Rather, many of the most influential Founding Fathers were Deists, heavily influenced by the new theories of humanism sweeping the Continent.

 

In any case, modern America has a significant percentage of citizens who are NOT Christian, and who have no reason to follow "Christian" laws, including anything pertaining to birth control and abortion.

Edited by prairiecrow

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Then why was, "One nation under God," written in the pledge of Allegiance?

I'm not saying every one in America should be a Christian, only that its laws should be based on those of a Higher Law. If we placed all our laws on science then we are nothing more than animals, right? Do animals care if they kill one another? Do they refrain from stealing? Do they even have laws?

If we are basing our laws purely off of science then we might as well forget to have them. After all, we're just another species on this earth so we might as well kill, steal, and rape just like all the others.

Another thing I forgot to add, I agree that abortion is not so much the issue as the things surrounding it. I'm not one to think that outlawing abortion will solve every thing, I simply believe that it is wrong and we should do what we can to prevent its happening, including reforming the reasons for it such as the foster care system and molesting.

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Then why was, "One nation under God," written in the pledge of Allegiance?

I'm not saying every one in America should be a Christian, only that its laws should be based on those of a Higher Law. If we placed all our laws on science then we are nothing more than animals, right? Do animals care if they kill one another? Do they refrain from stealing? Do they even have laws?

If we are basing our laws purely off of science then we might as well forget to have them. After all, we're just another species on this earth so we might as well kill, steal, and rape just like all the others.

Another thing I forgot to add, I agree that abortion is not so much the issue as the things surrounding it. I'm not one to think that outlawing abortion will solve every thing, I simply believe that it is wrong and we should do what we can to prevent its happening, including reforming the reasons for it such as the foster care system and molesting.

"Under God" was added to the Pledge during the 1950s, prompted by the "threat" of Communism at that time.

 

What DO they teach in history classes these days...? wink.gif

 

(And I'm not going to get into the evolutionary advantages of traits like compassion and altruism, since that would be totally OT for this thread.)

 

I will, however, say that from a Utilitarian point of view, in which the least amount of suffering is generally the goal, sparing a woman the agony of a pregnancy she doesn't want/can't afford and a child the torment of a life in the very broken adoption system is often the most ethical choice. No appeal to Christianity involved there. (Now I'm curious, do you genuinely believe that non-Christians lack any sense of morality?)

Edited by prairiecrow

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Actually, America was founded on Christian principles, so it is my belief that we were meant to be a Christian country. Second of all, could science prove spontaneous generation? For years people believed in this because it was "scientifically proven."

Secondly, did you see the world begin? Was Charles Darwin there to witness evolution play out as he wrote down his theories? Atheism takes just as much faith as Christianity does.

However, this is somewhat off the topic of abortion, though heavily connected.

not really founded by Christians because their was always the Native american. nothing is meant to be anything, it's what happens that makes something happen, no offence meant. cause and effect is all that it is in my book though in yours it is another, i respect this but i want to just point out my view, feel free to shot down or acknowledge it if you want. for a time manifest destiny swept the states and that called for killing of natives and taking their land. settles just bullied it out of the natives.

 

i personally believe the world had no start and thus no end even if all humans die it will recover mallina. later or, in theory become part of the sun and cook. so no i did not see the beginning and no human has or will and we probably will not see the end of the world, only the end our race and other races too. Charles had proof of evolution of adapting, all has a 30% missing from their DNA so over time creatures change even humans. i believe that chemicals also speed it up. Over population Can affect Fetuses in the females womb depending on the intake of resources and oxygen taken in.

 

i around a year ago breed mice to test these theories and learned that in a normal, i think 12, by 24' inch cage that 1 pair can produce up to 12 pups and keep them. take another with 4 pairs and they produce less offspring and smaller than ones their same age from the others.

 

i tested for Color changes (Black, Brown, White, Spotted, tipped tail, ect)

number of pairs together

behavior change (constant though there was less fighting after handling the agressive one's.

 

but Charles fallowed notes that he takes as well as measurements and he traveled the world for his information. its like saying dino's did not exist when you have their broken eggs and bones.

 

Yes Atheism takes much but it gives more because you take your beliefs from a collection of cultures like Taoism, necrophilia, Buddhism, Confucianism, and others that exist. though all have different beliefs on things like abortion.

 

when most say that abortion is madness others will disagree on their beliefs. very few are on facts though so science takes the place to enlighten us, understand what i'm getting at? if you need i can explain i tried to narrow it down some.

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, also, am a little upset over the fact that many of you believe that religion shouldn't be used in arguments. The Bible is the basis of my beliefs and it is the reason why I am anti-abprtion. As to whether the Bible is a solid foundation to pull arguments from, that is an entirely different debate altogether.

 

It shouldn't be because biased thoughts come into the situation, which is also what I hate. Sometimes you need to keep your personal life out of situations. It's not always just about you.

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"Under God" was added to the Pledge during the 1950s, prompted by the "threat" of Communism at that time.

 

What DO they teach in history classes these days...? wink.gif

 

(And I'm not going to get into the evolutionary advantages of traits like compassion and altruism, since that would be totally OT for this thread.)

 

I will, however, say that from a Utilitarian point of view, in which the least amount of suffering is generally the goal, sparing a woman the agony of a pregnancy she doesn't want/can't afford and a child the torment of a life in the very broken adoption system is often the most ethical choice. No appeal to Christianity involved there. (Now I'm curious, do you genuinely believe that non-Christians lack any sense of morality?)

No, I don't believe that non-Christians lack morality. I only question where morality in humans come from if there isn't a God. If we were animals we wouldn't have any sense of morality since animals act on instinct alone, or do you have different beliefs on this?

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Which is why I loath seeing men pro-birthers, it's like they're trying to keep women in check.

Because men only have opinions when they want to subjugate women.

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I find it quite frightening that someone would need a book to tell them for them to understand that it's bad to plant an axe in their neighbor's head, just to mention one thing. OR that they shouldn't sleep with their neighbor's spouse, for another example.

 

Definitely pro-choice, btw.

Edited by Ripan

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No, I don't believe that non-Christians lack morality. I only question where morality in humans come from if there isn't a God. If we were animals we wouldn't have any sense of morality since animals act on instinct alone, or do you have different beliefs on this?

There's plenty of evidence that many mammals have what we would call a moral sense. Dogs are acutely aware of fairness vs unfairness, and will resent being treated unfairly. Chimpanzees practice reciprocity and altruism. Even rats will forego delicious food in order to help another rat get out of a trap -- and will share the delicious food with them afterwards.

 

Even birds like crows demonstrate an awareness of these aspects of behaviour which, until recently, were thought of as strictly human in nature.

 

None of this proves where morality comes from, although I'd say the evidence suggests that what we call "morality" has an evolutionary component.

 

As for humans being the height of moral evolution, I'll just point to the case of men who murder their stepchildren and mothers who fatally neglect their own offspring and leave it at that.

 

To suggest that only humans (and more specifically, since you seem to believe that ethics come from the Judeo-Christian God, Christians) possess morality is to ignore (1) a great deal of solid data concerning animal behaviour, and (2) the complex and often beautiful moral codes of other faiths which claim no allegiance to your God.

 

That human beings have differing points of view on the issue of abortion proves nothing about any particular POV. It only proves that different people use different criteria to assess the morality of a given action.

Edited by prairiecrow

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No, I don't believe that non-Christians lack morality. I only question where morality in humans come from if there isn't a God. If we were animals we wouldn't have any sense of morality since animals act on instinct alone, or do you have different beliefs on this?

actually humans aren't the only intelligent species Whales, dolphins, dogs, apes, chimps, etc. have had shown intelligent. chimps. can speak sign language and dolphins are believed to use sound to communicate to. and there is always the possibly of another world that is in the Goldilocks zone that can hold life that can be advanced life like use.

 

though about animals, they abort there offspring as well as eat them if they feel that it is for the better of there lines. humans should be able to abort as well in my thought. though animals don't fallow religion of science that is why they do the things they do, there minds are clear of guilt because they don't have to worry about that stuff and they protect their race in hole. abortion is natural i guess the main point of this is. but it comes down to the main reasons of control of population and weeding out bad mutations from there lines.

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Lol, this has gone really OT, thanks to me!

In anycase, yes, if you believe that we are animals, then abortion shouldn't be an issue, but this also means that stealing, killing, and weeding out "mutations" shouldn't be outlawed either.

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Lol, this has gone really OT, thanks to me!

In anycase, yes, if you believe that we are animals, then abortion shouldn't be an issue, but this also means that stealing, killing, and weeding out "mutations" shouldn't be outlawed either.

It shouldn't be an issue because in the first trimester, it's not even fully developed and can become a tumor or miscarried or a parasitic mass, but you pro-birthers insist on calling it a full made baby and blame the woman if something happens to it or enslave her to force her to carry to term no matter what her medical conditions are.

Edited by GhostChilli

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Lol, this has gone really OT, thanks to me!

In anycase, yes, if you believe that we are animals, then abortion shouldn't be an issue, but this also means that stealing, killing, and weeding out "mutations" shouldn't be outlawed either.

Avoiding actions which destabilize a society amounts to Social Engineering 101: if a species doesn't evolve in such a way that such actions are instinctively avoided, building a society of any complexity becomes nearly impossible.

 

Looked at from this perspective, the aversion of almost every human civilization on record to rampant stealing and murder makes perfect sense without recourse to any God. (And I fully support a woman's, or a couple's, right to decide if she/they can or cannot support a special needs child, and to abort if they cannot do so. Again, it comes down to eliminating those situations which engender needless suffering.)

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Lol, this has gone really OT, thanks to me!

In anycase, yes, if you believe that we are animals, then abortion shouldn't be an issue, but this also means that stealing, killing, and weeding out "mutations" shouldn't be outlawed either.

if you look at it that way though things like abortion are supposed to be decided by the public.

 

i would never vote for someone how outlawed abortion, gay marriage, or any scientifically proven that can be a help to every creature. but ya. back to the subject of abortion.

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Zephyrgirl, I understand you're planning on helping out some of the kids, but the thing is, you can't help out ALL of them. There's not enough room. And that's pretty much the answer to it all, there's just not enough and I don't know if there will ever be a time where there WILL be enough. Outlaw abortion and this problem's growth will nearly triple (probably more) in progress since there's about a million abortions performed a year. Now imagine abortion being outlawed and making sure that women are forced to the terms. That's over a million unborn babies thrown into the system a year. I say this because some women will go to desperate measures to get rid of a pregnancy.

 

Thinking that a child should be born, even if they will starve is much more "evil" in my books than getting rid of it before it even exists yet.

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If killing and stealing are instinctively wrong, then why is our crime rate growing? Also, when Christianity and family values were more prominant in this country, the crime was lower. People didn't worry so much about safety precautions like walking alone or being in dimly lit areas. If we are constantly advancing, then why is our crime rate increasing with us?

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Zephyrgirl, I understand you're planning on helping out some of the kids, but the thing is, you can't help out ALL of them. There's not enough room. And that's pretty much the answer to it all, there's just not enough and I don't know if there will ever be a time where there WILL be enough. Outlaw abortion and this problem's growth will nearly triple (probably more) in progress since there's about a million abortions performed a year. Now imagine abortion being outlawed and making sure that women are forced to the terms. That's over a million unborn babies thrown into the system a year. I say this because some women will go to desperate measures to get rid of a pregnancy.

 

Thinking that a child should be born, even if they will starve is much more "evil" in my books than getting rid of it before it even exists yet.

Starve physically, or starve for fundamental human connection/love... or be beaten... or neglected... or harried to death.

 

All things which I think are undeniably evil, and which will increase if more unwanted children are permitted to exist -- when in fact it's well within our power as a society to avoid such suffering by means of a relatively simple medical procedure.

 

If killing and stealing are instinctively wrong, then why is our crime rate growing? Also, when Christianity and family values were more prominant in this country, the crime was lower. People didn't worry so much about safety precautions like walking alone or being in dimly lit areas. If we are constantly advancing, then why is our crime rate increasing with us?

 

Crime exists because for some individuals the perceived benefits of crime will always outweigh the perceived benefits of "playing by the rules". All this demonstrates is that personal benefit is not always trumped by larger forces ensuring the survival of a social group, even thought the overall tendency is for humans to act in ways which stabilize society rather than destabilize it.

 

And I've seen studies suggesting that overall, crime has decreased in the late 20th/early 21st century compared with past eras. Some of the opposing statistics may have something to do with different/more effective means of reporting/recording crime in the modern era.

 

I'll also point out that proportionally, Christians have a much MUCH higher presence in prisons than atheists, even adjusting for the relative numbers of Christians vs atheists in the population at large. If Christianity is such an infallible source of moral strength and intuition, those numbers should be reversed.

 

And since abortion has been around in all recorded Western (and Eastern) civilizations, and will, it seems, continue to be around, perhaps the question is not so much "should it happen?" as "how many women do we want to die in agony as the result of botched back alley procedures?" Because women will try to find a way to control their reproductive status in the face of any risk.

Edited by prairiecrow

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Starve physically, or starve for fundamental human connection/love... or be beaten... or neglected... or harried to death.

 

All things which I think are undeniably evil, and which will increase if more unwanted children are permitted to exist -- when in fact it's well within our power as a society to avoid such suffering by means of a relatively simple medical procedure.

I guess you can say all of the above

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Zephyrgirl, I understand you're planning on helping out some of the kids, but the thing is, you can't help out ALL of them. There's not enough room. And that's pretty much the answer to it all, there's just not enough and I don't know if there will ever be a time where there WILL be enough. Outlaw abortion and this problem's growth will nearly triple (probably more) in progress since there's about a million abortions performed a year. Now imagine abortion being outlawed and making sure that women are forced to the terms. That's over a million unborn babies thrown into the system a year. I say this because some women will go to desperate measures to get rid of a pregnancy.

 

Thinking that a child should be born, even if they will starve is much more "evil" in my books than getting rid of it before it even exists yet.

No, but if several people decided to set aside their self-centered motives to just help "some" kids, then pretty soon the amount would grow from "some" to "many".

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No, but if several people decided to set aside their self-centered motives to just help "some" kids, then pretty soon the amount would grow from "some" to "many".

And until then, what should happen? Keep throwing them in the system and make them suffer?

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