How about allowing same-sex breeding so they could produce an egg together?

[Ciri]

How about allowing same-sex breeding so they could produce an egg together? I understand that in real life it's  impossible, but dragons are magical creatures, they will come up with something, so why not? xdd Or you could give this option to some dragon species 😊 

 

UPD: I also wonder if it's possible to add an option of breeding my dragons with dragons from a friend's scroll, for example?

Edited April 10, 2022 by Ciri

[Rosedamai]

no to both those suggestions 

with the second one, there will be an influx of begging, which I'd rather not see. 

[Fuzzbucket]

No to both. There have been many threads about both ideas, and we'll argued. Comes out as unworkable every time.

 

If someone produced a same-sex breeding dragon, that would be the only possible way.

 

And begging others to breed with you would be horrible. Many of us already breed willingly. If you have something you want breeding, get an egg and pass it to the person you hope to breed with. If CBs just catch some more!

[KageSora]

To the first, I'd rather see something like that as a breed-specific quirk, rather than a site-wide thing.  Just personal preference.

 

To the second, absolutely not.  That's been shut down many times because people ALREADY beg for those with desiresble dragons to breed them stuff, can you imagine how much worse it would be if you could now directly beg somebody to breed their dragon with yours?  Also the details about the egg--who gets to keep the egg?  Would all breeding procure 2 eggs of the same breed no matter what?  That would essentially mean cross-scroll breeding is a guaranteed multiclutch and that's been a disabled mechanic for most breeds for quite a long time.  What if there's only one egg?  Do you get to pick?  Do you both have to agree?  What if there's a disagreement over who gets the egg?  Just seems like a headache waiting to happen.

[purplehaze]

I believe that both of these suggestions have been around before and were generally shot down by users.

 

If someone creates a dragon that features same-sex breeding, I could live with that (although I would probably never breed them), but not all breeds being capable of it. Too many complications.

 

And cross-scroll breeding would be a nightmare in logistics, besides opening us up to all manner of begging. I will breed any of my dragons for anyone who asks politely, but I don't want to breed my dragons with anyone else's. If you asked me I would refuse and some people don't take refusal well. I don't need that.

[Jazeki]

I'd rather not change existing dragons' breeding mechanics. I'd be okay with a new dragon having this ability. 

 

No thank you to the second request. I have enough people requesting that I breed things. I'd rather not open myself up to possible harassment. I can only imagine how that would go for people with alts or cb prizes or hm dragons.

 

You and your friend can always swap offspring from existing dragons and breed those together if you want to make lineages.

[Ciri]

Then you can also add disabling this option. If you don't want to breed dragons with other people, you can simply turn it off in your user settings

[Fuzzbucket]

There's another huge issue with this. Scroll to scroll communication is not permitted because of tj,'s job. So as most players are actually not on forum there would be no way for this to be an in game option anyway. There will never be an option in the cave/game that isn't open to all.

 

I wouldn't support it anyway. As has been said, discuss it with a friend if you want to work together. There's far too much in the way of complication over what egg you get and who keeps it for this to fly.

Here are two of the many threads where this has been discussed in the past. The only way it could possibly work would be in the trade hub, but trying to choose the other player would be difficult. You'd have to just say want to breed my dragon xyz to a CB gold, will offer BSA hatchlings, and hope for the best. In the hub any trade must be open to all.

 

 

 

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/185175-please-close-bsa-suggestions-for-13th-birthday-release-dragons/#

 

[Jazeki]

10 hours ago, Ciri said:

Then you can also add disabling this option. If you don't want to breed dragons with other people, you can simply turn it off in your user settings

Even if closed, there's nothing to stop users from asking someone to make an exception for them "just this once" if they figure out how to contact them by some other means.

[Fuzzbucket]

This is true. I know loads of spriters with ALTs get harassed, and I recall someone here who DEMANDED that I breed all my shimmers for them, "except the ones related to mine" . Anyone who thinks I'm checking their dragons to see which of my over 170 shimmers they "require" can do the other thing. Harassment is already a thing, even of people who willingly breed for free....

 

The only way it could work is with random users in the hub.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Fuzzbucket

[Ashywolf]

Honestly as a concept I really like the idea of dragons being able to breed cross-scrolls. But unfortunately the community has proven they can't be trusted with something with as much responsibility as that. I mean hey, maybe we could just prevent spriter alts from being able to breed cross-scroll, and so the problem there would never worsen as a result.

[Fuzzbucket]

The absolute killer is that there can never be scroll to scroll communication. TJ's job forbids it. So however much we might be "trusted", it can't be a request through a scroll. Anything that could be done would have to be in the hub and free for anyone to meet the offer; it could never be "hey jaz, will you breed your giggles to my aigthalas." That could only happen in forum, so would exclude anyone not here - a no-no, I think. Because some people don't want to be in the forum, and others literally cannot be.

[KageSora]

9 hours ago, Ashywolf said:

maybe we could just prevent spriter alts from being able to breed cross-scroll, and so the problem there would never worsen as a result.

The issue then is that spriter alts aren't the only things that get people demands.  People with prize dragons, especially CB prize dragons, or other dragons that are very desirable already get people demanding people breed for them.  There's definitely people who don't even admit to owning a CB prize because they want to avoid the "HEY!  breed me a 2nd gen!" crowd.

 

Like, I have no idea against the concept as it is--I'd personally be happy to offer to breed one of my dragons with a mate of choice on somebody else's scroll and for them to keep the resulting egg if it's the breed they wanted.  But the logistics of how to make it work, how to handle the resulting egg, and the fact people already get harassed just makes the idea too much of a problem to be worthwhile.  The gains don't outweigh the work to handle it or to deal with the inevitable entitled rudeness that would result.

 

It'd be one thing if we didn't already have people get harassed over it--then we could confidently say that it was all speculation that people would be entitled jerks.  But, sadly, the issue does exist already and it would be stranger for it to not worsen than it would be for it to do so.

 

It's also why this cannot be a solution:

20 hours ago, Ciri said:

Then you can also add disabling this option. If you don't want to breed dragons with other people, you can simply turn it off in your user settings

 

Users shouldn't have to avoid the forums and discord to avoid people demanding they be an exception.

Edited April 12, 2022 by KageSora

[Skadi]

For Same-Sex Breeding I'd like it as a breed quirk or a BSA. I think it would open the door to unique lineages, and tying it to a BSA means it's not unlimited and can't be exploited. The only reason I care about same-sex breeding is that it could make some neat dimorphic lineages, though. I don't really care about my pixel dragons having sexualities.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Skadi

[Moriaty]

12 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

TJ's job forbids it. 

 

I'm kind of confused on that, is there proof of some kind? Like TJ saying that he can't do scroll to scroll commu? I don't understand how his job would forbid a system of communication implemented on a different website TJ built himself...

 

either way, to the suggestion. I like the idea of cross scroll breeding, but after reading up the other thread I've decided no - it's way too complicated and I think more than what the community can handle. For same sex breeding, if they actually produce egg, how the heck is lineage gonna look for the baby?? Which one goes in the female/male slot? Though it's just a random action you can do and never produces an egg I have no reason to say no. I don't like it even if a BSA is involved.

[KageSora]

5 minutes ago, Moriaty said:

For same sex breeding, if they actually produce egg, how the heck is lineage gonna look for the baby?? Which one goes in the female/male slot?

Oh, that's also a good point, especially with breeds that have dimorphism so it'd look weird if one was in the "wrong" slot.  And you can't really do it randomized, because that would defeat the entire purpose of breeding to build a lineage if it's random appearance, unless it was breeding 2 dragons of the same breed so it'd have the same appearance no matter what...

[Ciri]

I've only been here for a short time, so I don't understand why people need alien dragons. I think it's much more fun to raise your own dragons and then crossbreed them with your friends' dragons. Therefore, it is really difficult for me to understand what you are talking about and what kind of begging you are talking about...

[Skadi]

7 hours ago, KageSora said:

Oh, that's also a good point, especially with breeds that have dimorphism so it'd look weird if one was in the "wrong" slot.  And you can't really do it randomized, because that would defeat the entire purpose of breeding to build a lineage if it's random appearance, unless it was breeding 2 dragons of the same breed so it'd have the same appearance no matter what...

My thought:

The BSA changes the sex flag and swaps the dragon's position in their offspring based on what sex flag they had at time of breeding.

 

I would have to look at the actual code to see if this is an easy change or not, tho. But my guess is that since dead dragons keep their lineage positions, it could just be a matter of changing the off spring's mom and dad.

 

Since Influencing exists, I personally don't see it as a big deal to have it or not have it. But I do want it tied to a BSA for sorting reasons; I don't want every dragon on my scroll showing up when it's time to breed my tinsel.

 

29 minutes ago, Ciri said:

I've only been here for a short time, so I don't understand why people need alien dragons. I think it's much more fun to raise your own dragons and then crossbreed them with your friends' dragons. Therefore, it is really difficult for me to understand what you are talking about and what kind of begging you are talking about...

This community has some. Characters. I personally haven't dealt with harassment over my dragons, but I've seen meltdowns over new Common releases. I don't really trust people to not be weird about allowing cross scroll breeding.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Skadi

[animatedrose]

Without going into overly much detail, TJ works for a big social media company--online communication. One of the rules, I believe, is that as long as he works there, he cannot create competition for his job, a.k.a. creating online communication, even for a small site like DC. That means, for DC, any means of scroll-to-scroll communication. So scroll-to-scroll cannot ever occur because of those rules unless we want to put TJ out of a job, because I doubt DC generates enough money to keep TJ afloat all by itself. DC is a hobby, not a job. Any further details on this are for TJ to divulge, if he chooses. This is the rough reasoning (not sure if it's okay to name the company, because he did do that on Discord but because nobody here is saying it, I'm not sure if there's a secret taboo on saying it so I won't until that is okayed) that I've seen him and others give over Discord on the official DC Discord as to why scroll-to-scroll can't ever occur. It's not really a thing that can be disputed or argued against.

 

I wouldn't mind same-sex breedings if it was a new gimmick on a new derg, but I'm not sure how that would work if transitioned across all of DC's current breeds. I'm neutral on this. Could be nice for holiday breedings. *looks at her prize and all the gorg male xmas/vday dergs that he must miss out on*

 

Cross-scroll breeding... Ehhh... I think everybody else has said it. Harassment. It's a big enough thing already, especially to bigger users or those with "special" dragons. Nobody wants to get harassed but some people don't mind doing the harassment for whatever reasons they give themselves. As much as cross-scroll breeding would be cool, I'd rather not give that particular crowd bigger ammo to boost their "bravery". If harassment had a way to be instantly culled, that'd be a plus, but since that isn't a thing (as well as probably prone to abuse itself)...sorry but no. It's not worth the punishment to a chunk of the userbase. Especially since that chunk includes staff, a.k.a. the artists and writers of the site we all enjoy.

 

Now that I'm thinking of it...would anyone be "brave" enough to actually harass TJ himself if cross-scroll was allowed? The actual site maker? I mean, if they'll go after site artists...

[Skadi]

yeah i was thinking the main benefits of this would be Interesting New Holiday lineages, Nebula Options, cases where dimorphism results in different colors, and prize or stat lineage building. *especially* the stats. Right now, building a Stat lineage is extremely hard, and those of us with CB stats are few and far between. i'd prefer less hostile ratios (my favorite option since the commons i hoard are becoming Very Hard to find), or making them cheaper in the market (could also be done with less hostile ratios), but this could be a bandaid fix to building Stat lineages.

 

It doesn't really break the site to add it as a BSA with a decent cooldown (three to four weeks, depending on dragon rarity; rarer can be shorter since they drop less commonly and don't breed true as often), since the thing is that the main beneficiaries would be Stat and Prize owners, and getting true bred 2gs out of those two breeds is a pain enough as it is. You'd also have to collect enough dragons with the BSA to breed your dragon consistently, and if they're rare, they're gonna be harder to get. It's also worth noting that it doesn't prevent "no eggs" or refusals, either. Also gonna say it wouldn't mess much with the ratios since you have people like me with two CB stats, and those of us with multiple already have this advantage of being able to trade 2gs pretty easily (if we could get 2gs). It just makes it easier for singe-stat owners to find potential trade partners.

 

Note that I'm still kinda neutral on this despite pitching this shift on the idea; I just like thinking of possible game mechanics.

 

3 hours ago, animatedrose said:

 

Now that I'm thinking of it...would anyone be "brave" enough to actually harass TJ himself if cross-scroll was allowed? The actual site maker? I mean, if they'll go after site artists...

Also gonna say yes.

 

Gonna say that even if it were possible, I admittedly like that dragcave doesn't really have communication on the site itself. I engage with this community on my terms, and that feels Just Fine to me.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Skadi

[KageSora]

10 hours ago, Ciri said:

I've only been here for a short time, so I don't understand why people need alien dragons. I think it's much more fun to raise your own dragons and then crossbreed them with your friends' dragons. Therefore, it is really difficult for me to understand what you are talking about and what kind of begging you are talking about...

Well, you said it there:  friends.

 

What do you do when you and a friend want to breed, but people are coming into your PMs and saying "you're gonna breed [rare dragon you want to breed with your friend] with this dragon on my scroll and I get the egg"?

 

If you think saying "sure, after I breed with my friend" will make them go "okay, I'll wait" then you are very sadly mistaken.

 

It would work for people who ask politely--a sort of "hey, are you ever willing to breed [dragon] cross-scroll?" but anybody who comes at it with the attitude that because they want it they are owed it won't be satisfied unless they're given priority--especially if it's one of those breeding that can take months to get the right egg, or even any egg, from.

 

Several users here over the years have attested to the behavior of entitled people demanding breeding for them, this isn't some hypothetical.

It won't be just limited to your friends, that would require an additional suggestion of having scroll friends.  I can't recall if that ever got shot down as a standalone concept, though I think it was brought up before in relation to cross-scroll breeding and shot down because it won't stop the entitled users from demanding to be added to your friend list so they can breed with your dragons.

[Jazeki]

2 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

It won't be just limited to your friends, that would require an additional suggestion of having scroll friends.  I can't recall if that ever got shot down as a standalone concept, though I think it was brought up before in relation to cross-scroll breeding and shot down because it won't stop the entitled users from demanding to be added to your friend list so they can breed with your dragons.

I think scroll friends were suggested at one time, but was shot down due to harassment/being too close to scroll to scroll communication on here. We do have the buddies thing on the forum. 

 

And yes, breeding requests can be really hard--even for friends--if the offspring is not something that is easily produced. I have had people asking me to breed  stats lately and it can take months to get an egg. It's not good idea to open up your scroll to people going "I want to breed my mint dragon with your stat and I want the first stat baby." I remember when this was brought up a long time ago people were wondering how to decide who gets the offspring if only one egg is produced. 

 

[KageSora]

3 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

I think scroll friends were suggested at one time, but was shot down due to harassment/being too close to scroll to scroll communication on here. We do have the buddies thing on the forum. 

 

And yes, breeding requests can be really hard--even for friends--if the offspring is not something that is easily produced. I have had people asking me to breed  stats lately and it can take months to get an egg. It's not good idea to open up your scroll to people going "I want to breed my mint dragon with your stat and I want the first stat baby." I remember when this was brought up a long time ago people were wondering how to decide who gets the offspring if only one egg is produced. 

 

Ah, yeah, the scroll communication thing is another angle--be odd to have a scroll friend option with no way to communicate on-site, and there's a lot of reasons users don't want to join the forum much less off-site things like a discord sever.

 

I suppose the egg thing could be handled by generating 2 eggs that are identical (except for code), and giving one to each user but that would probably be a mess when it comes to ratios.  Commons it would be easy to get 2 eggs from but imagine having to wait until the ratios aligned enough that getting 2 of a mega rare dragon was feasible?  It's already nearly impossible to get ONE of certain breeds...  ...Plus, if it did auto-generate 2 identical eggs I could see that as enticing to start multi-scrolling in the hopes of double-dipping, then just transfer the egg to the main scroll.  (That would be easy enough behavior to note and crack down on, but it would be more work to handle that.  Plus it wouldn't account for actual cases of friends using it to get 2 eggs on one scroll because they were trying to help a buddy)

 

Otherwise you'd require some sort of off-site or scroll to scroll communication in order to discuss and agree who gets what egg.

 

I imagine the entitled sorts will simply demand the egg if it isn't give to them automatically or to work the system to get the egg without needing it transferred.

 

There's also the risk of scams.  Unless something changed in the years since I was more heavily involved in the trading scene, IOUs I always understood to be a user-risk matter and if somebody didn't follow through there was no recourse from mods because that was your risk to assume.  What's stopping somebody who doesn't have any sense of honor about agreements from agreeing to breed then just...  Not giving you the egg?  Especially if the agreement was made off-site or something, should mods even have the authority to enforce alleged agreements between users that took place in an unconnected area?  (Remember, screenshots can be faked so if the agreement happened somewhere that the mods cannot access an untampered chatlog from, there's always the chance somebody is lying and has faked their "proof".)

 

Now, for that, it really could just be a case of "you assume all risk and responsibility" and users would need to understand that if their breeding partner cheated them they have no recourse because they assumed all risk--including their partner not holding up their end of the bargain.

 

But still a factor to consider when thinking about the logistics of how to handle who gets what egg, should one or more eggs be produced.

[Jazeki]

I'm guessing mods wouldn't really be able to do anything about IOU's or scammy breeds--just like they can't do anything with them here on DC. As it is, there are so many interpretations of what "free for any dragon" means when it comes to trade. There have been users that have also gotten upset over accepting the "wrong thing" in trade hub as well. If this were implemented, it would be a risk just like any other action on here. 

[KageSora]

Yeah.  Which, on it's own, isn't necessarily a bad thing but it--and the potential work it would result in as people try and report broken agreements to mods even if they're just told "Sorry, we can't enforce that, you assume all risk when you do such things"--are still factors that need to be considered.

 

Like I've said, I'm not opposed to the idea at it's core--it's just that there's a lot of details to try and figure out and issues to try and solve before the idea could even be considered feasible from a user standpoint (which might still get shot down it TJ thinks it would be too much work and/or not possible for him to code it.)

 

I know various suggestions have been made in the past and shot down for various reasons...