Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[Stormphoenix42]

Reading that IOU discussion... they are allowed by the forum rules, you just can't post about them or make topics about them, because they're made at your own risk and won't be moderated. People arrange them through forum PM all the time, and that's perfectly acceptable as long as they don't expect the mods to get involved. The issue was that a) it's not clear that you can't offer an IOU in a trade because b) it's not clear that posting your forum name is considered "linking off-site." I think most people understand that posting a discord username or facebook info would be linking offsite, but there will be people who don't. They'll probably get the picture after a warning, or after a player with trade hub experience uses that info to tell them it's against the rules.

(Edit to add: of course, this is just under the current rules. If, as proposed, a rule was added to specifically disallow IOUs/combining trades/etc., that would be a different scenario.)

It seems like the only way to legitimately give people your contact info on the hub is through linking to your own scroll or group - as mentioned, there are people with dragons named "I accept IOUs" and "my forum name is xxx" - this is allowed, as far as I know. If it's not, then that's another clarification we should add to our proposed revised rules.

 

tl;dr If people are getting warned for mentioning IOUs in a trade, it's because they're putting contact info ("linking offsite") in their trades, not because there's a site-and-forum-wide ban on IOUs. (...Right?)

Edited January 7 by Stormphoenix42

[Fuzzbucket]

There is no forum BAN on them, no - but they are private arrangements and there's no recourse if there's a problem. In the hub you have to offer something concrete, so I don't see how an IOU can work.  And Kaini already said:

 

18 hours ago, Kaini said:

IOUs are not possible on the site alone, though. There is no possible way to coordinate an IOU on the site alone, and if you direct people to the forum for it, you are subject to the forum rules where they are disallowed. And if you do manage to coordinate an IOU on the site only by 'talking' to the other person with trade messages, that violates the hub rules by directing messages at a specific person.

 

So - I think that says it all ?

 

[MissK.]

The IOU thing is also something I'd love an answer to. What if I post a trade that says I'm open to IOUs, see group xxxx, and in that group I give contact info through dragon names? There's currently no rule against IOUs on site, so...either this is allowed, or there should be a rule. 

 

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

There is no forum BAN on them, no - but they are private arrangements and there's no recourse if there's a problem. In the hub you have to offer something concrete, so I don't see how an IOU can work. 

 

 

But you can ask for them, or offer one thing and an IOU of more. Then a trade is still being completed anyway. 

[Stormphoenix42]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

There is no forum BAN on them, no - but they are private arrangements and there's no recourse if there's a problem. In the hub you have to offer something concrete, so I don't see how an IOU can work.  And Kaini already said:

18 hours ago, Kaini said:

IOUs are not possible on the site alone, though. There is no possible way to coordinate an IOU on the site alone, and if you direct people to the forum for it, you are subject to the forum rules where they are disallowed. And if you do manage to coordinate an IOU on the site only by 'talking' to the other person with trade messages, that violates the hub rules by directing messages at a specific person.

 

So - I think that says it all ?

 

Yes - multiple messages at a specific player in the hub violates a different rule. The fact that the message is about IOUs isn't relevant. As I mentioned, there are ways to tell someone to contact you that do not break the current hub rules.

The problem is the mode of communication (either targeting messages, or linking to the forum, which some people don't understand is not allowed), not the IOU content, because IOUs are not banned.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

25 minutes ago, MissK. said:

The IOU thing is also something I'd love an answer to. What if I post a trade that says I'm open to IOUs, see group xxxx, and in that group I give contact info through dragon names? There's currently no rule against IOUs on site, so...either this is allowed, or there should be a rule. 

 

But you can ask for them, or offer one thing and an IOU of more. Then a trade is still being completed anyway. 

 

No, you can't. To offer, you have to just click on something you have on your scroll. There's no option to add text. And to add something you have to contact the other member. Now the grey area there is if you contact someone whose trade you have seen on forum and say "I have half of what you want and I WILL get the rest; is that OK ?" (I admit to having done that myself - even to say I HAVE the CB you asked for but it's on CD - please wait !) But that is not a trade on the hub, really. It effectively defaults to a forum trade. 

 

24 minutes ago, Stormphoenix42 said:

Yes - multiple messages at a specific player in the hub violates a different rule. The fact that the message is about IOUs isn't relevant. As I mentioned, there are ways to tell someone to contact you that do not break the current hub rules.

I'm not sure that there are ways to TELL someone that are within the rules. The only one I can think of is "see group xxxx", which could include a dragon called PM me on forum."

 

24 minutes ago, Stormphoenix42 said:

The problem is the mode of communication (either targeting messages, or linking to the forum, which some people don't understand is not allowed), not the IOU content, because IOUs are not banned.

 Asking someone to make contact is - which means most methods of communication automatically rule out IOUs.

 

The more this gets picked apart, the more complicated it gets.

[Stormphoenix42]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I'm not sure that there are ways to TELL someone that are within the rules. The only one I can think of is "see group xxxx", which could include a dragon called PM me on forum."

 

 Asking someone to make contact is [banned] - which means most methods of communication automatically rule out IOUs.

 

The more this gets picked apart, the more complicated it gets.

Yes, that's the method MissK and I mentioned.

I don't think it's that complicated. IOUs are allowed; linking people to the forums, or other offsite methods of communication, or targeting them specifically in a trade message is not. I just don't want people to get the wrong idea about why certain types of trades will get them warned. Otherwise we get players passing down "phantom rules" that don't exist, like "IOUs are banned."

IOUs are possible, and allowed under the current rules, you just need to be a little creative about how you go about them. Honestly, you don't even need to link to a group - your scroll is visible on the trade, so if it's not hidden, anyone could go check it out and find a "My forum name is xxxx" dragon on it.

[Fuzzbucket]

TECHNICALLY they aren't, so it's probably safer to ban them. Those of us who use them know what to do. Those of us who don't probably won't have seen the forum rules and may then complain to mods if they don't get what they expect - and IOUs are STRICTLY between two individuals.. (Generally, actually, two who are already aware of each other, so why they'd need to use the hub....?)

[Jazeki]

I have been following along quietly and I posted a hypothetical trade-specific question in the TLQ thread. Fuzz was kind enough to answer and suggested I post here as I did not really like the  response.

 

So, I know further up the thread it says we cannot ask for 2nd gen saltkins outside of their holiday season. What are we supposed to be doing for the rest of the year? For example, let's say Process does a pink omen mass breed and 50 or so 2nd gen saltkins cycle through the AP. I pick up a minty saltkin, but I already have the lineage. I would like to swap for one of the 49 other saltkins. Am I breaking the rules by putting up a trade that says: Have 2nd gen saltkin. Want different 2nd gen saltkin?

 

I have been doing these kinds of trades for years now and I'd just like to make sure that I know what I'm supposed to be doing. 

[MissK.]

39 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

No, you can't. To offer, you have to just click on something you have on your scroll. There's no option to add text. And to add something you have to contact the other member. Now the grey area there is if you contact someone whose trade you have seen on forum and say "I have half of what you want and I WILL get the rest; is that OK ?" (I admit to having done that myself - even to say I HAVE the CB you asked for but it's on CD - please wait !) But that is not a trade on the hub, really. It effectively defaults to a forum trade.

What you are answering is not what I said. You can put up a trade of a CB silver in the hub and say "want: CB gold, can add IOU of a 2g prize too, check group xxxxx" and in the group it has contact info. You can also put up a trade that says "I'm open to IOUs, check group xxxx" with the same info in the group. Currently there is no rule that forbids this, because there is no rule about IOUs on site, unless offering contact info in a group is actually against the rules. Which is also not mentioned anywhere. 

 

Edit: for the record I'm not saying IOUs should (or should not) be allowed, just that right know we don't even know the exact rules that apply. 

Edited January 7 by MissK.

[Fuzzbucket]

You're missing what I'm saying (ain't that the whole problem, with all this !) That's the person putting up the trade, not the person offering on a trade. The person offering a trade in the first place can say what they like. The person offering on a trade that's up there cannot do that; they cannot offer an IOU in return without making contact, so they cannot complete the trade without going off hub - which turns it into a forum trade. (which also, of course, knocks out everyone without a forum account.)

Edited January 7 by Fuzzbucket

[MissK.]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

You're missing what I'm saying (ain't that the whole problem, with all this !) That's the person putting up the trade, not the person offering on a trade. The person offering a trade in the first place can say what they like. The person offering on a trade that's up there cannot do that; they cannot offer an IOU in return without making contact, so they cannot complete the trade without going off hub - which turns it into a forum trade. (which also, of course, knocks out everyone without a forum account.)

What does that matter...? My question is if it's allowed currently to put such a trade in the hub. A person who wants to offer can still offer a CB gold, complete the hub trade, and arrange the IOU off-site. So a hub trade is being completed, regardless. Is that allowed? If not, why not, what are the rules about it? 

[Fuzzbucket]

It's not completed on the hub, that was what I was getting at - and the other person can't OFFER without going off. The person putting up the trade would have been able to say IOU, but the offerer wouldn't.

 

Though I don't think it actually is allowed to add in an iou - @Kaini ?

[MissK.]

They can partially offer on the trade. It doesn't mean the IOU is their only contribution. I've literally done this before, I had a public trade up and someone offered me some things and messaged me to offer me more as an IOU. We completed the trade on the hub and I also got the IOU later, because I had said in my trade message that it was fine to contact me if they wanted. It now seems that we can't even say PM me on the forums so I will not be doing that again, but the same can be achieved with a group like I said. So, is it allowed to mention IOUs in hub trades right now? And is it allowed to direct people to a group with contact info even though that will also eventually direct them off site? 

Edited January 7 by MissK.

[Fuzzbucket]

We Do Not Know. This is why we need clearer rules. Also about Jazeki's question, which has been answered twice with exactly opposite info, as I understood it, and I for one am more confused now that it was "clarified" than I was before.

[MissK.]

Exactly, glad we finally agree lol. 

 

Yeah the salt thing is really confusing. It's kind of baffling to me to have different rules on and off season...that seems like a very arbitrary distinction when halloweens exist in much greater numbers, and anyone can do a massbreed off season if they want. It's a very tiny percentage of total users who can breed 2g salts regardless, but if that's what matters, we should also not be allowed to ask for them in season either surely..? It just gets more and more convoluted. 

[Stormphoenix42]

1 hour ago, MissK. said:

They can partially offer on the trade. It doesn't mean the IOU is their only contribution. I've literally done this before, I had a public trade up and someone offered me some things and messaged me to offer me more as an IOU. We completed the trade on the hub and I also got the IOU later, because I had said in my trade message that it was fine to contact me if they wanted. It now seems that we can't even say PM me on the forums so I will not be doing that again, but the same can be achieved with a group like I said. So, is it allowed to mention IOUs in hub trades right now? And is it allowed to direct people to a group with contact info even though that will also eventually direct them off site? 

Neither of these things (saying you accept IOUs or linking to a group on site) violate the current rules as I understand them. I'd be interested to see the opinion of someone with authority, though. 

Edited January 7 by Stormphoenix42

[Fuzzbucket]

I think the rules that were put together by @laevsk would cover what we need: Yes, sad for people who want IOUs in the hub - but we CAN deal with those on forum entirely, after all. And these leave open the option to ask for a 2g salt as long as we don't specify which.

 

- Describe what you're offering and what you want.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling.

- Do not post links to other sites including the DC forum.

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player.

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, inc!uding loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules].

[Tawanda001]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I think the rules that were put together by @laevsk would cover what we need: Yes, sad for people who want IOUs in the hub - but we CAN deal with those on forum entirely, after all. And these leave open the option to ask for a 2g salt as long as we don't specify which.

 

- Describe what you're offering and what you want.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling.

- Do not post links to other sites including the DC forum.

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player.

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, inc!uding loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules].

Since it's possible to work with IOUs (offering and asking) I would rather this rule be similar to the forum rule, stating that any IOU is not officially sanctioned and done at a players own risk. It seems confusing to have it winked at on the forum but a ban offense if initiated thru the hub.

[Murkydepths]

I would like it stated officially whether it is allowed or not to link to a group that has contact information for the forums.

[laevsk]

I think the goal here is to make it all less convoluted, but the topic of potential multi-clutches of 2g SAlts is a confusing one.  I'd like to mention one thing on multi-clutches though.  Breedings dragons that can have multi-clutches may produce only two eggs. There's a possibility of more, but two is not uncommon.  That brings it back to being one or two specific people, so if the intent is to avoid targeting specific players then it stands to reason that asking for specific 2g SAlts even in season would fall under the same ruling. 

 

I'm not saying I agree with this rule, just looking at it logically.

 

I haven't seen any mod say we can't ask for a 2g SAlt or Thuwed, only that we can't ask for a specific one.  In all honesty, this probably affects only a small percentage of players who have collected enough of these to only need certain ones, or someone planning a breeding in which only that one 2g SAlt/Thuwed will work.  I don't have a solution for these people.  If the rules is "don't ask for speific SAlts/Thuweds" then it may be a rule we just have to live with.  At least we will know what's not allowed.

 

It seems we need clarification on the "pm on forum/discord" topic.  It's a common part of current trades and it seems most people are okay with it.  I have never taken this to mean that someone is asking for an IOU though, simply that they may be willing to discuss trade options (i.e. "yes, I'd accept xxxx dragon for this trade").  If an IOU happens it's behind closed doors, so to speak.  Mods, is saying " pm me" acceptable?  Is mentioning a group number okay?

 

An IOU is a personal informal contract between two players and DC is not involved in it.  To that end, not allowing a mention of an IOU on the hub is logical.  Making a personal agreement with someone and then accepting their offer on the hub still does not involve the hub with any IOU, so personally I don't see a problem with it. The rule that I included in the draft of proposed rules is specifically under "Trading Hub Rules" and apply to trades put onto the hub, so saying "Do not ask for or offer IOU's" should be understood as a rule for that section.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think surely linking to a group is OK - what is IN That group is between you and your conscience - perhaps dont' SAY contact info is there  

 

But as an IOU REQUIRES off site contact, that is a whole different thing; you would effectively be asking for contact..

1 minute ago, laevsk said:

An IOU is a personal informal contract between two players and DC is not involved in it.  To that end, not allowing a mention of an IOU on the hub is logical.  Making a personal agreement with someone and then accepting their offer on the hub still does not involve the hub with any IOU, so personally I don't see a problem with it. The rule that I included in the draft of proposed rules is specifically under "Trading Hub Rules" and apply to trades put onto the hub, so saying "Do not ask for or offer IOU's" should be understood as a rule for that section.

 

This is exactly how I feel about them. Can, meet worms.

[Stormphoenix42]

I'm fine with adding a "no IOU mentions" to the new rules to match the forum. All I've been trying to say is that it's not currently banned. If the intent is to keep them off the hub, I agree that adding it to the new rules would be a good clarification. 

 

Whether or not you can link to a group with contact info is still a separate issue, and it would be good to get a response on whether or not that's allowed - and if not, why not - so that we can adjust the new proposed rules to handle it if needed.

[Fuzzbucket]

I THOUGHT (but cannot find) that @TJ09 said once that naming a group by number was OK, but a link was not. I have read that WHOLE trade hub feedbaclk thread and couldn't see it....

 

I cannot imagine that we would develop a new thing where we couldn't put that kind of useful info in our dragon names (looks at her own clock, invented before the time thing changed.)

 

 

Edited January 7 by Fuzzbucket

[Stormphoenix42]

I think I've heard that before as well, possibly on discord? I'd look but the mobile search is such a pain 😂

[laevsk]

This is what I have so far.  I've added/changed things as needed. Please tell me if I've missed something ..😁. 

 

Keep in mind that this is a clarification of already existing rules - a concise list that could be put on the teleport page for hub trades. This list may or may not suit TJ and the mods.  If it does, I will gladly work on an expanded rules page perhaps in the same format as the Description Rules page.  And again, I am NOT a moderator. I'm just a regular player.

 

Trading hub rules include, but are not limited by, the following:

- Describe what you're offering and/or what you want.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling.

- Do not post links to other sites including the DC forum.

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's or offer something you don't currently own.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player.

- Trades must be completed in one teleport - combining trades is not allowed.

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, including loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules].