Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

To me, if "hey I'm offering X nice thing if you can return Y auto'd egg" is considering "bothering" another player then renaming the parents to ask for it back should also be considered "bothering" another player.

 

Well, no - renaming the parents isn't bothering another player directly; if they look and don't respond, that's just one remark asking politely - the end. Now what happened the other day was "bothering another player." That was repeated calling out by name in the hub. (see TLQ). I don't know what happened to the offender, but whatever it was it was richly deserved.

 

ETA 

 

How's this for a start ? I DO actually think it would be OK to have this kind of thing in a link called "trading hub rules" at the top of the trading page.

 

Trading hub.

 

State what you have, and what you want for it.

You may offer up to four growing things.

You may not ask for a specific egg or code, even something that you autoabandoned..

You must ask for something that most players would be able to offer.

You may not post a link to any other site, including to the forum.

You may not name another player in your text.

You may not include any words in your trade info that aren’t directly related to that trade. No jokes, song lyrics etc.

You may not insult, abuse or otherwise harass another player.

You may not use offensive language.

Edited January 5 by Fuzzbucket

[Moriaty]

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Now what happened the other day was "bothering another player." That was repeated calling out by name in the hub. (see TLQ). I don't know what happened to the offender, but whatever it was it was richly deserved.

 

I think people were more discussing public trades with wants like "autoed code 'abcde', can I have it back please, here's a gold egg". 

 

The incident in TLQ is definitely harassment and bothering another player and I don't think anyone is going to deny that = =

[purplehaze]

11 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

How's this for a start ? I DO actually think it would be OK to have this kind of thing in a link called "trading hub rules" at the top of the trading page.

 

Trading hub.

 

State what you have, and what you want for it.

You may offer up to four growing things.

You may not ask for a specific egg or code, even something that you autoabandoned..

You must ask for something that most players would be able to offer.

You may not post a link to any other site, including to the forum.

You may not name another player in your text.

You may not include any words in your trade info that aren’t directly related to that trade. No jokes, song lyrics etc.

You may not insult, abuse or otherwise harass another player.

You may not use offensive language.

Much better than what we have now.

Not sure about the wording for the bolded part (my bolding). I know the intent of it, but most players might not be able to offer a CB Stat because a lot of us have never even seen one in the cave. That doesn't mean we can't ask for one, though. I don't know how it could be worded better.

 

[Kaini]

Quote

but when a user plasters hate-speech across the hub, moderation is silent.

 

Yea, this is absolutely untrue and hurtfully disingenuous. Every time this has (unfortunately) happened, it has been taken care of (as long as it was reported - we can't take care of things if they aren't reported and we don't know?) But this is worded like it's something we ignored on purpose or continue to ignore, which is again just an offensive notion.
 

Quote

The fact that users can be outright banned, and retroactively at that too, without hardly a warning for doing nothing wrong, is absurd and frustrating to no end.

 

They cannot be, there is a warning each time and several tiers before a permanent ban is enacted.
 

Quote

Meanwhile, who knows how many people have been permabanned for trading for relatively minor violations?

 

None, past the point in time where tiers were added to violations. There was a brief period at the very beginning of the trade hub where perma bans were the only option, and that was changed. So... none? *edit to add - those 'perma' bans were fairly converted into first strikes when the tier system was added. so! none

 

Quote

Permabanning someone for asking for a specific egg is needlessly harsh, unless it's a repeated offense after they were told clearly what the issue was.

 

This is how it currently works, yes. No one is permabanned after one offense.
 

Quote

These anecdotes about permanent bans from stuff that seem like incredibly minor violations, caused by misunderstandings or unawareness. No warnings or temporary measures for clear communication at first?

 

This isn't a thing. There are in fact warnings, multiple.
 

Quote

I very much agree the punishments for these minor offenses are very harsh and are often swayed by mods' personal bias and their own interpretation of the rules.

This is also not a thing. There is no personal bias because it takes multiple moderators to agree to actually enact any warnings. Like, multiple, more than two. No one mod is handing these out, we all have to work together and that is to avoid exactly this. THIS is also why it sometimes takes a while for consequences to show - we receive a report, and then multiple mods have to agree to act on it, which takes time (mods have different schedules, we aren't all online at once, we have to WAIT for our fellow mods feedback and agreement before anything happens). That's why sometimes warnings are a week later or otherwise latent.

There are a LOT of assumptions and untruths happening in this thread, to the point where it's actually wild to come read them. So ama I guess, with what I can answer (some things only TJ can answer) because ... I just. wow.

As for the actual wording of the rules, that's up to TJ, it may change to be 'clearer' and it may not, but I will just say that you can word it however you want, make it as 'clear' as you want, but still someone will say it wasn't clear enough or didn't cover their specific situation. It's impossible to cover EVERY eventuality and some common sense / sense of community is needed. This is why warnings are a thing, so people can learn.

Edit to add more I've been cleared to say - the majority of people who get any sort of consequences are for things that are already spelled out very clearly - and are explicitly called out as examples on the help page. So... there's really no unusual consequences being handed out here.

Edited January 6 by Kaini

[laevsk]

13 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

State what you have, and what you want for it.

You may offer up to four growing things.

You may not ask for a specific egg or code, even something that you autoabandoned..

You must ask for something that most players would be able to offer.

You may not post a link to any other site, including to the forum.

You may not name another player in your text.

You may not include any words in your trade info that aren’t directly related to that trade. No jokes, song lyrics etc.

You may not insult, abuse or otherwise harass another player.

You may not use offensive language.

 

Good start! 

 

Is "state what you have" necessary when you're showing the eggs/hatchlings? I tend to always say what I have, but it doesn't seem a problem when people don't.  

 

The "may not ask for a specific egg" is a bit awkward, as "specific egg" sounds like we'll be in trouble if we only name a single egg (like CB Cantormaris) as that's a specific type of egg.  If asking for a specific 2g SAlt or Thuwed is the problem, then that can be said directly, I think.  

 

"You must ask for something that most players would be able to offer" would be difficult to interpret, as most players are not able to offer CB rares. I think with the clarification in other areas, this could be left out.

 

Also, is it against any rules to make humorous (or humerus ..😁) trade posts? I have done this on many occasions and have never been scolded for it.  Saying things like "Cute Red hatchling looking for forever home", "Gorgeous CB Astrael - c'mon, you know you want it!" or some play on words regarding breed or code just don't seem like posts that should create a problem and extra work for moderators.  I appreciate it when something funny comes across in forum - breaks up some of the tedium of searching through trades. Maybe a mod can chime in and let us know if this is okay?

 

I think we can make the rules even more simple by combining some too. It would also shorten things to say "Don't" rather than "You may not" - the latter may be a little more polite, but the former more direct. Items that can be combined could be "Don't name another player or ask for a specific code" and "Don't use offensive language or insult, abuse or otherwise harass another player".

 

Short and concise rules, combined with a "for further information, visit the Help page" link will go a long way toward alleviating confusion which should result in better understanding by players AND less work for moderators. 

[Sketch]

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

The fact that users can be outright banned, and retroactively at that too, without hardly a warning for doing nothing wrong, is absurd and frustrating to no end.

They cannot be, there is a warning each time and several tiers before a permanent ban is enacted.

 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

Meanwhile, who knows how many people have been permabanned for trading for relatively minor violations?

None, past the point in time where tiers were added to violations. There was a brief period at the very beginning of the trade hub where perma bans were the only option, and that was changed. So... none? *edit to add - those 'perma' bans were fairly converted into first strikes when the tier system was added. so! none

 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

Permabanning someone for asking for a specific egg is needlessly harsh, unless it's a repeated offense after they were told clearly what the issue was.

This is how it currently works, yes. No one is permabanned after one offense.

 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

These anecdotes about permanent bans from stuff that seem like incredibly minor violations, caused by misunderstandings or unawareness. No warnings or temporary measures for clear communication at first?

This isn't a thing. There are in fact warnings, multiple.

I may see where some of the confusion is coming from in regards to users experiencing sudden punishments, because it does often come across as silent and sudden.
Warnings are sometimes given weeks late and may all come down at once from old trade posts finally being looked over. That, and the warning system really isn't that great or noticeable; they disappear from your notifications quite quickly, and I think a visible strike system would be a great improvement. I've forgotten almost everything I did to receive mine, and when I was given the initial warning, I didn't even understand what I had done wrong. < A common theme amongst banned players.
 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

but when a user plasters hate-speech across the hub, moderation is silent

Yea, this is absolutely untrue and hurtfully disingenuous. Every time this has (unfortunately) happened, it has been taken care of (as long as it was reported - we can't take care of things if they aren't reported and we don't know?) But this is worded like it's something we ignored on purpose or continue to ignore, which is again just an offensive notion.
...
 

Quote

I very much agree the punishments for these minor offenses are very harsh and are often swayed by mods' personal bias and their own interpretation of the rules.

This is also not a thing. There is no personal bias because it takes multiple moderators to agree to actually enact any warnings. Like, multiple, more than two. No one mod is handing these out, we all have to work together and that is to avoid exactly this. THIS is also why it sometimes takes a while for consequences to show - we receive a report, and then multiple mods have to agree to act on it, which takes time (mods have different schedules, we aren't all online at once, we have to WAIT for our fellow mods feedback and agreement before anything happens). That's why sometimes warnings are a week later or otherwise latent.

I didn't mean to come across as hurtful at all, and while I understand now that it takes multiple moderators to come together on a decision, I do think that was an unacceptable situation. Those posts were up for public display on a site with children - not to mention, just people who don't want to see that - for half of the day and players were spamming moderation and administration.

  Real life gets in the way; I completely understand why you'd get so frustrated coming here and interpreting this as a "Mods vs Players" fight, but in reality it's all of us arguing over rules that were never properly instated or made public, leaving the moderation team entirely in charge of handling and personally telling people what rules mean when there's only a handful of you stretched across the site. That's why everyone is frustrated.

There haven't been new moderators added to the team in years and you guys keep losing folks because life gets in the way. There's hardly enough of you to keep up with everything going on all the time along with your personal lives; I think I even saw Star recently mention in the Discord that she hadn't been on the forums for days. I get it, and I think that to get around this, @TJ09ought to open up new mod applications sometime soon to help even the burden and keep the site running properly.

 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

As for the actual wording of the rules, that's up to TJ, it may change to be 'clearer' and it may not, but I will just say that you can word it however you want, make it as 'clear' as you want, but still someone will say it wasn't clear enough or didn't cover their specific situation. It's impossible to cover EVERY eventuality and some common sense / sense of community is needed. This is why warnings are a thing, so people can learn.

Edit to add more I've been cleared to say - the majority of people who get any sort of consequences are for things that are already spelled out very clearly - and are explicitly called out as examples on the help page. So... there's really no unusual consequences being handed out here.

I'd also like for him to consider fixing up the Trade Hub Rules, instating a visible strike system, and adding the option of temporary bans for less-severe punishments.
 I don't care what way you look at it, losing access to trading with the majority of the site's population for a misunderstanding kinda sucks.

Edited January 6 by Sketch

[KageSora]

14 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Well, no - renaming the parents isn't bothering another player directly; if they look and don't respond, that's just one remark asking politely - the end. Now what happened the other day was "bothering another player." That was repeated calling out by name in the hub. (see TLQ). I don't know what happened to the offender, but whatever it was it was richly deserved.

 

Well, putting a trade up in the hub asking politely for an auto'd to be returned is also not directly bothering another player--if they don't look and respond, that's just one remark asking politely.

 

It really doesn't have to be "no asking back" or "spamming by name to bother another player over it".   There's a middle ground of a quick, neutral "hey, this egg got auto'd, if you happen to pick it up I'll offer you this nice thing in return for it".

 

I don't functionally see any difference between a single, neutrally worded trade hub request asking for a return on an auto'd egg that can be easily missed or ignored by the player who picked it up vs politely renaming the parents of a dragon to ask for it back.

 

14 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You must ask for something that most players would be able to offer.

 

For the most part I think they look good, but this one in particular is an issue to me, in light of how people have been explaining their misunderstanding the currently stated rules.

 

Logically following this to it's end, no 2nd gen SAltkin can be requested at all outside of, perhaps, their respective holiday season because any other time of year you are requesting an egg from an extremely exclusive group that most players will never be able to join, much less have something from that group to offer.  (Quite frankly even 3rd or 4th gen, maybe even more, are probably off-limits depending on how many of those are actively being produced and dumped or traded for others to obtain)

 

It would also mean that you really shouldn't be allowed to ask for things like CB Stats because, realistically speaking, most players will not be able to offer that at any given time considering that most players likely haven't ever even seen a CB Stat much less ever picked one up.  This might also be expanded to include no asking for CB Golds, for example--it's been years since I've even seen one much less picked one up, and I have seen other players say they've never seen one.  Most players will simply not be able to obtain a CB Gold at any given time to offer on a trade.

 

I'd also argue it should ban asking  for NDs because most players will not be able to create one upon seeing that request--it would require being able to get an egg of sufficiently low time and unless the AP is in Death Wall mode that's simply not possible for the average player to get at any given moment.

 

Essentially, unless you clarify it further this would in effect mean that the trading hub should be only usable for extremely common dragons (with no special lineages like Thuwed) that the average player would have no trouble breeding or picking up because anything that's genuinely "rare" is going to rule out "most" players being able to offer it.

 

(Basically I think it comes down to if people are taking it literally or figuratively.  In a more figurative sense it conveys the idea that it shouldn't be something that only one individual users could fulfill and should be something any user could, hypothetically, fill if they got lucky enough to have what you were looking for.  In a more literal reading, then it rules out quite a few dragons because "most" players would simply not be able to offer them at any given moment)

Edited January 6 by KageSora

[Metafarers]

I don't have a lot to add, other than all of the folks I've talked to who have permabans only LEARNED that they were breaking a rule after they were banned. That tells me there is a flaw in the system, and that these permabans are not actually helping. Historical permabans should be removed upon request and a short and long term suspension system put in place. 

 

I was recently bothered on trade hub and to be honest, if I had known what I know now, I wouldn't report the user again, because this system is far too punitive. 

[laevsk]

There's evidently confusion on the entire warning/permabanning situation. I can say that I have specifically heard from a number of players that they didn't receive two warnings prior to that third "final" warning/permaban. If permanently banning a player from a vital part of the game is important to the administration, then having everything clear and obvious would alleviate the very complaints seen in this thread.

 

It shouldn't be that difficult to set up a reasonable system that makes sure a player receives a proper warning/explanation of what they did wrong.  I think most players are not deliberately breaking forum rules - they simply either fail to notice/remember a rule or they interpret it differently than what was intended when the rule was written.  Clarifying rules will benefit both players and moderators.

 

The concept of permanently banning a player from the trading hub seems abnormally harsh, too.  A life sentence for asking for a trade that is against some as-of-now confusing rules?  It would be a wonderful gift to the players if bans could be more reasonable, and those on "permaban" for some time have their life sentence repealed.  There should be very few infractions that result in permanent bans. 

[Moriaty]

Forum has a neat warning point system, it's on your profile (only visible to you I believe), and you can click on the point and it brings up information box on who issued the point, a quote of the post where you did something to receive this warning point, alongside mod note of why it was issued. The point goes away in a few months I believe if you don't offend again, and something serious only happens (some sort of restriction, I believe) when you accumulate a certain number of points. Maybe we can have something similar for trade hub and have this warning history stored in a separate tab near "Trading History" . Quoting the user's message and explaining could also more effectively solve the "wow that's a long time ago I don't even remember sending that trade why am I banned now" problem, since forum mods and site mods at this moment are largely the same group of people if it can be done for forum it shouldn't be that difficult for site in terms of mod work load? (correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

[KageSora]

5 minutes ago, Moriaty said:

Forum has a neat warning point system, it's on your profile (only visible to you I believe), and you can click on the point and it brings up information box on who issued the point, a quote of the post where you did something to receive this warning point, alongside mod note of why it was issued. The point goes away in a few months I believe if you don't offend again, and something serious only happens (some sort of restriction, I believe) when you accumulate a certain number of points. Maybe we can have something similar for trade hub and have this warning history stored in a separate tab near "Trading History" . Quoting the user's message and explaining could also more effectively solve the "wow that's a long time ago I don't even remember sending that trade why am I banned now" problem, since forum mods and site mods at this moment are largely the same group of people if it can be done for forum it shouldn't be that difficult for site in terms of mod work load? (correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

 

I think the bigger issue would be coding something similar into the site itself, which would be up to TJ.  This function is built into the forum software, and TJ didn't code this all himself, he's using pre-existing forum software, IIRC.

 

I agree something like this would be solid, though, if it were added in!

[reddof-f6]

NOTICE of missing: DC rules.

if found please return immediately to front desk!

 

i agree that rules need to be posted more clearly at least. i've been on here for years and thinking on it. i really don't remember seeing the rules except for when i hunted them down before joining the site/ forums. ever since - where are they?

 

TL:DR: i searched the WHOLE forums and they basically don't exist anywhere. this is a nightmare. 🫠 and please read very last paragraph as well before replying.

 

before doing something like a trade their should be an obvious. "read the rules before submitting -rules here link-"

when building a site, a good recommend is to assume people have the attention span of toddlers looking at jingly keys. if it literally takes more then two clicks to get anywhere, you do lose the persons attention soon after. unintentionally scrambling rules here or there + where ever on the forums would def be a hand smack big no no.

this gets even weirder when the forums cant be linked in trades because: "off site" but that's where a chunk of the rules are held.

 

if i were a fresh user, where would i find the rules strictly on dragon cave ONLY. completely acting as if the forums don't exist.

i don't see any button for rules. theres -terms and conditions/ policy- but in my mind thats not related and more of "don't sue us for X and we can sue if you X" BUT, looking into it. it DOES have a rule/s.

for ex the: “Buying” Eggs/Hatchlings/Dragons

which i think would be a point on the trading rules section. others can be seen as both rules/ terms and conditions like no cheating/ double accounts, etc. and to top it all off this page is noted as being last updated: August 26, 2018. - 5 years ago. making it due for an update or at least a look over.

now, back to hunting for a rules-ish page. how about the help section? nope. it breaks down mechanics and terms, but still no list of rules.

in account settings? nope.

strictly on dragon cave only, the rules aren't there. and id hardly count the two sentence notif before the trade box as a clear rules guideline. there should be another page possibly set by, as a lone tab, or on the help page. and or at the bottom of the site next to terms. that clearly lays out all the rules. inc copying those in the terms/ conditions to be there as well.

 

now, lets hunt the rules on the forums as a completely fresh babyfaced user.

on the help page? how to use forum - frequently asked questions - dragon cave forum rules. okay! we got something, but this is only directed at -the forums- and its only 6 rules. which also only apply to forums as its all involved in messaging each other. useless on strictly dragon cave.

 

back to - frequently asked questions- there are many buttons, but none of them are rules.

scrolling down instead - AH, rules! ... still nope. some of these actually clarify rules, but there not said as such. just posted as frequently asked.

such as: Can two different people have scrolls on the same computer/IP?, How do I get returned an egg that auto-abandoned?

which can be just as important such as questions like: "I have a warning, when will it go away/what was I warned for?" should also be posted somewhere under the list if a rules page is made. + a button/ link to where they can ask mods questions on this specifically toward their case/ how to fill out a proper form explaining/ submitting their question.

overall, no rules still. useless on strictly dragon cave.

 

okay, help page gave nothing, this is very bad as now where do i go from here for rules??? a new user will be absolutely lost and just start randomly clicking topics to hopefully find these very important rules that should take two clicks max to find.

back to the forums main page. - suggestions/ requests? nope. site discussion? nope. there is ask a mod, but im ignoring that because no new players should have to message a mod for a list of rules. that is absolutely ridiculous. same for needing a tutor on how to get the most basic foundation of how not to get in trouble. site discussion - section guidelines? nope, only for third party. okay, just checking now. site discussion - ask a mod? nope, not unless i ask.

 

welp, thats the whole dragon cave section. what do i have left from here? general discussion? dead end. why is finding the rules turning to be so impossible? OKAY, now im looking clulessly on the boarder of the site for SOMEthing. profile - account settings? nope. guidelines(at the top)? nope. its that same 6 rules page only toward forums. any terms policy with some? nope.

_____

 

end results: absolutely ridiculous failure. the rules exist SOMEwhere, but they are literally nowhere. absolutely nowhere. and the true answer to where they are better not be a long chained list of: "oh you gotta go to this topic - go to page 10 out of 2000, scroll down to so-so's post and they got 5 of the rules. then you can find more if you-" ANYTHING like that is absolutely horrible and someone deserves a smack if they find that reasonable for finding site rules.

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

Well, putting a trade up in the hub asking politely for an auto'd to be returned is also not directly bothering another player--if they don't look and respond, that's just one remark asking politely.

It is asking for a specific thing - which we already know isn't permitted. So spelling that out seems smart to me.

 

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

It really doesn't have to be "no asking back" or "spamming by name to bother another player over it".   There's a middle ground of a quick, neutral "hey, this egg got auto'd, if you happen to pick it up I'll offer you this nice thing in return for it".

 

I don't functionally see any difference between a single, neutrally worded trade hub request asking for a return on an auto'd egg that can be easily missed or ignored by the player who picked it up vs politely renaming the parents of a dragon to ask for it back.

 

I know TJ doesn't believe in the slippery slope, but if there WERE such a thing, that's the start of one. I think no references to a specific egg is the only way to go, there. I speak as one who has autoed far too often for comfort, and the only way to deal is renaming and putting it your sig here - which IS allowed. I've got them back all but twice.

 

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

For the most part I think they look good, but this one in particular is an issue to me, in light of how people have been explaining their misunderstanding the currently stated rules.

 

Logically following this to it's end, no 2nd gen SAltkin can be requested at all outside of, perhaps, their respective holiday season because any other time of year you are requesting an egg from an extremely exclusive group that most players will never be able to join, much less have something from that group to offer.  (Quite frankly even 3rd or 4th gen, maybe even more, are probably off-limits depending on how many of those are actively being produced and dumped or traded for others to obtain)

 

I think asking for a 2 gen saltkin - without saying which - is OK. Most people seem to do that already - not specify. A few put "mate for...." which would get past that, if one's desperate. Or "see group xyz" where they put the wanted one top....!

 

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

It would also mean that you really shouldn't be allowed to ask for things like CB Stats because, realistically speaking, most players will not be able to offer that at any given time considering that most players likely haven't ever even seen a CB Stat much less ever picked one up.  This might also be expanded to include no asking for CB Golds, for example--it's been years since I've even seen one much less picked one up, and I have seen other players say they've never seen one.  Most players will simply not be able to obtain a CB Gold at any given time to offer on a trade.

 

I'd also argue it should ban asking  for NDs because most players will not be able to create one upon seeing that request--it would require being able to get an egg of sufficiently low time and unless the AP is in Death Wall mode that's simply not possible for the average player to get at any given moment.

 

Essentially, unless you clarify it further this would in effect mean that the trading hub should be only usable for extremely common dragons (with no special lineages like Thuwed) that the average player would have no trouble breeding or picking up because anything that's genuinely "rare" is going to rule out "most" players being able to offer it.

 

(Basically I think it comes down to if people are taking it literally or figuratively.  In a more figurative sense it conveys the idea that it shouldn't be something that only one individual users could fulfill and should be something any user could, hypothetically, fill if they got lucky enough to have what you were looking for.  In a more literal reading, then it rules out quite a few dragons because "most" players would simply not be able to offer them at any given moment)

 

I think you are really over-complicating here. Every single player has the same chance to catch a CB of anything - even a stat. (internet connection permitting, which is a whole different can of worms; yes I remember when I played on dialup.) That most of us fail miserably isn't the issue.

5 hours ago, Kaini said:

As for the actual wording of the rules, that's up to TJ, it may change to be 'clearer' and it may not, but I will just say that you can word it however you want, make it as 'clear' as you want, but still someone will say it wasn't clear enough or didn't cover their specific situation. It's impossible to cover EVERY eventuality and some common sense / sense of community is needed. 

 

This, SO much.  There are even ways to deliberately misinterpret a rule to argue your point. 

 

2 hours ago, laevsk said:

 

Good start! 

 

Is "state what you have" necessary when you're showing the eggs/hatchlings? I tend to always say what I have, but it doesn't seem a problem when people don't.  

 

Well, if you have an eg checker with x breed, that matters, or CB vs lineaged. 

 

2 hours ago, laevsk said:

Also, is it against any rules to make humorous (or humerus ..😁) trade posts? I have done this on many occasions and have never been scolded for it.  Saying things like "Cute Red hatchling looking for forever home", "Gorgeous CB Astrael - c'mon, you know you want it!" or some play on words regarding breed or code just don't seem like posts that should create a problem and extra work for moderators.  I appreciate it when something funny comes across in forum - breaks up some of the tedium of searching through trades. Maybe a mod can chime in and let us know if this is okay?

 

Yes it is - a lot of people were warned for that earlier., It doesn't "relate directly to your offer."

 

52 minutes ago, Moriaty said:

Forum has a neat warning point system, it's on your profile (only visible to you I believe), and you can click on the point and it brings up information box on who issued the point, a quote of the post where you did something to receive this warning point, alongside mod note of why it was issued. The point goes away in a few months I believe if you don't offend again, and something serious only happens (some sort of restriction, I believe) when you accumulate a certain number of points. Maybe we can have something similar for trade hub and have this warning history stored in a separate tab near "Trading History" . Quoting the user's message and explaining could also more effectively solve the "wow that's a long time ago I don't even remember sending that trade why am I banned now" problem, since forum mods and site mods at this moment are largely the same group of people if it can be done for forum it shouldn't be that difficult for site in terms of mod work load? (correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

 

You're wrong about the time taken:   And what you posted does come up if you click the warn.

 

[reddof-f6]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

It would also mean that you really shouldn't be allowed to ask for things like CB Stats because, realistically speaking, most players will not be able to offer that at any given time considering that most players likely haven't ever even seen a CB Stat much less ever picked one up.  This might also be expanded to include no asking for CB Golds, for example--it's been years since I've even seen one much less picked one up, and I have seen other players say they've never seen one.  Most players will simply not be able to obtain a CB Gold at any given time to offer on a trade.

 

I'd also argue it should ban asking  for NDs because most players will not be able to create one upon seeing that request--it would require being able to get an egg of sufficiently low time and unless the AP is in Death Wall mode that's simply not possible for the average player to get at any given moment.

 

Essentially, unless you clarify it further this would in effect mean that the trading hub should be only usable for extremely common dragons (with no special lineages like Thuwed) that the average player would have no trouble breeding or picking up because anything that's genuinely "rare" is going to rule out "most" players being able to offer it.

you're being overly picky about the wording here, but hell: "things that all players have access to." there, done.

[Laugh]

If moderation team must assume innocence of a trade presenting a CB Green hatchling as a CB Neglected hatchling, then shouldn't moderation team then also assume innocence on people misinterpretting rules, not being able to locate trade hub rules, and/or sometimes don't see warning(s)?

[Starscream]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:22 PM, Sketch said:

 but when a user plasters hate-speech across the hub, moderation is silent.

 

I take extreme offence to this, that hurts!  I was anything BUT silent.

 

I was the moderator who woke up at 5am to encounter this fiasco. I did what was in my power to contact TJ who is 3 time zones away from me. The system in place malfunctioned. so for me being 5am, for TJ it was probably 2am. Ergo, the middle of our night. I'm up at the crack of dawn because I have livestock. After that I tried to rouse any and every mod I could so that we could do the vote and get the problem poster taken care of. DO not assume that we did nothing and were silent. But thanks to the time of day it happened, it could not be dealt with swiftly as we wanted it. ALL of us who were trying to get it shut down, were upset we couldn't do more.

[blah]

36 minutes ago, Starscream said:

The system in place malfunctioned.

It sounds like an extremely stressful situation for you and it does illustrate our point. The system isn’t good. If one warning wasn’t one third of the way to a life sentence (the way I’m understanding it from this thread now, apologies if I misunderstood), all of that lengthy process wouldn’t have been necessary. In all of my interactions with mods (granted, not that many in mod-related contexts) they’ve been very reasonable. One mod having the power of banning someone from trading for, let’s say a week, would be perfectly fine with me - if it was just that, a week’s ban, and not the beginning of the end. I may be very naive but I think the number of users who repeatedly and deliberately offend after temp bans can’t be that high? 

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, Laugh said:

If moderation team must assume innocence of a trade presenting a CB Green hatchling as a CB Neglected hatchling, then shouldn't moderation team then also assume innocence on people misinterpretting rules, not being able to locate trade hub rules, and/or sometimes don't see warning(s)?

 

And where do you stop. ANY loophole WILL be exploited. We do need to take a degree of personal responsibility for our behaviour. (In the case of someone, for the first time, posting the wrong description of their trade, I'd just kill that trade. and watch for further such mislabelling, myself.)

 

3 hours ago, Starscream said:

 

I take extreme offence to this, that hurts!  I was anything BUT silent.

 

I was the moderator who woke up at 5am to encounter this fiasco. I did what was in my power to contact TJ who is 3 time zones away from me. The system in place malfunctioned. so for me being 5am, for TJ it was probably 2am. Ergo, the middle of our night. I'm up at the crack of dawn because I have livestock. After that I tried to rouse any and every mod I could so that we could do the vote and get the problem poster taken care of. DO not assume that we did nothing and were silent. But thanks to the time of day it happened, it could not be dealt with swiftly as we wanted it. ALL of us who were trying to get it shut down, were upset we couldn't do more.

 

You have my sympathy. On one forum I am on, after a ghastly incident occurred in the middle of the night for most mods, a system was set up where the first mod to see it can now effectively suspend the offender, with no penalty attached (yet...)  until more mods are available actually to make a decision. I believe the individual gets a warning message saying they are temporarily unable to post (or, here, trade) while a decision is made.

5 hours ago, reddof-f6 said:

you're being overly picky about the wording here, but hell: "things that all players have access to." there, done.

 

I think "things that all players can have access to..." perhaps ?

[Diggie]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And where do you stop. ANY loophole WILL be exploited. We do need to take a degree of personal responsibility for our behaviour.

 

While I'm sure some people would seek out loopholes, the problem is the people who are simply misunderstanding/misinterpreting the vagueness of the rules and being punished as a result. Most of the situations (at least, that I am aware of) aren't malicious at all, but a genuine attempt to follow the rules. 

[Laugh]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

And where do you stop. ANY loophole WILL be exploited. We do need to take a degree of personal responsibility for our behaviour. (In the case of someone, for the first time, posting the wrong description of their trade, I'd just kill that trade. and watch for further such mislabelling, myself.)

 

I'm not quite sure if you're being literal or figurative with your wording here, but in case you're being literal, why would you resort to killing off a trade rather than taking it down for a first offense? The example I provided was a real occurrence and that was a response from the moderation team. What I'm getting at is if the mod team is okay with people "maybe" misunderstanding what dragon they have on trade and therefore won't take it down then they have to realize as well that not everyone is going to understand the rules as they do (especially with an international community), miss the warning notifications, and aren't able to locate said trading hub rules. 

 

I am all up for people taking accountability for their mistakes, but the punishment needs to fit the crime and I don't believe someone posting trades 3x trying to "directly contact someone" or "offering IOUs" warrants a permaban on trading, which is an integral part of the game. Yes, people will exploit any loophole, but that is such a small minority of people and does not reflect the majority. Those types of people eventually slip and should then be dealt with accordingly. 

 

Not sure if people who are permabanned on trade hub can appeal their permabans, but if not there seriously needs to be a way to. 

[Kaini]

Quote

Also, is it against any rules to make humorous (or humerus ..😁) trade posts? I have done this on many occasions and have never been scolded for it.  Saying things like "Cute Red hatchling looking for forever home", "Gorgeous CB Astrael - c'mon, you know you want it!" or some play on words regarding breed or code just don't seem like posts that should create a problem and extra work for moderators.  I appreciate it when something funny comes across in forum - breaks up some of the tedium of searching through trades. Maybe a mod can chime in and let us know if this is okay?

 

As long as the humor clearly states what you are looking for (and is not vulgar or otherwise inappropriate for a PG audience), it's fine. If it's so absurdist I can't deduce what you want, that does break the rules.

 

Quote

I may see where some of the confusion is coming from in regards to users experiencing sudden punishments, because it does often come across as silent and sudden.
Warnings are sometimes given weeks late and may all come down at once from old trade posts finally being looked over. That, and the warning system really isn't that great or noticeable; they disappear from your notifications quite quickly, and I think a visible strike system would be a great improvement. I've forgotten almost everything I did to receive mine, and when I was given the initial warning, I didn't even understand what I had done wrong. < A common theme amongst banned players.

 

You get a notification pushed out to you, it is definitely not silent. They are sometimes latent, yes, but not as much as you're claiming - trade reports are automatically closed with no consequence after -a period of time I'm not sure I'm allowed to specify- if no mod action has been taken to avoid exactly this. It's not on us if you don't check your notifs or remember. What do you want us to do, barge into your house, if you'll pardon the humor? Though I wouldn't be against a permanent line/reminder on the create a trade page that says 'hey have you have two strikes, be careful'.
 

Quote

I didn't mean to come across as hurtful at all, and while I understand now that it takes multiple moderators to come together on a decision, I do think that was an unacceptable situation. Those posts were up for public display on a site with children - not to mention, just people who don't want to see that - for half of the day and players were spamming moderation and administration.

 

What would your solution to this 'unacceptable situation' be? I am genuinely asking and this isn't meant to be sarcastic.

 

None of the mods have the power to singularly knock someone off the hub immediately, we need multiple mods to do it. This is to solve your earlier problem of 'mod bias'. Okay, so do you want one mod to have that power? But you don't trust us not to have bias. So we need multiple mods. Unless we're TJ, and we immediately went to get TJ's attention to fix it and did our best. (I wouldn't mind more mods tho).

It's interesting to note that you're so worked up about this one instance - which we did take care of as soon as TJ was aware and smacked it, with apologies that it took so long - but you don't seem to realize that this happens like... once a month. Because usually we take care of it so quickly! You all just happened to catch the one time it got away from us and suddenly NOW it's a huge issue. But some dork does this to the hub like once a month and we always take care of it promptly, and almost no one notices. So really, one instance where it got away in a couple years of where this has been happening is pretty good. (and I can't speak to consequences for users but it's not something we allow 1 person to continue doing, to be clear. Absolutely unacceptable.)

 

Quote

and adding the option of temporary bans for less-severe punishments.

This is already a thing! You continue to ask for things that are... already in place? You get temp bans that ramp up long before you get a permanent - such as one day, a few days, etc.

 

Quote

Logically following this to it's end, no 2nd gen SAltkin can be requested at all outside of, perhaps, their respective holiday season because any other time of year you are requesting an egg from an extremely exclusive group that most players will never be able to join, much less have something from that group to offer.

 

This is correct and this behavior would result in a strike.
 

Quote

It would also mean that you really shouldn't be allowed to ask for things like CB Stats because, realistically speaking, most players will not be able to offer that at any given time

No, this is fine because everyone has the ability to have a CB stat and catch one at any time. This could be applicable to anyone. The 2g SA would only be applicable to the spriter (or a singular person they had traded with).

 

Quote

I don't have a lot to add, other than all of the folks I've talked to who have permabans only LEARNED that they were breaking a rule after they were banned. That tells me there is a flaw in the system, and that these permabans are not actually helping. Historical permabans should be removed upon request and a short and long term suspension system put in place. 

Historical permabans WERE removed and replaced with a first strike. This has already been done. I truly believe you aren't getting the full story because there are so many steps before a permaban, there is no way they didn't know about it. And if they feel their ban is unfair, they are always welcome to reach out to a moderator or TJ, rather than stirring up drama with other users uselessly.

 

Quote

I was recently bothered on trade hub and to be honest, if I had known what I know now, I wouldn't report the user again, because this system is far too punitive. 

 

There are so many steps and warnings before a perma ban, straight from the horses mouth. This thread is frustrating because things are being made up and passed between users that have no basis in fact.
 

Quote

It shouldn't be that difficult to set up a reasonable system that makes sure a player receives a proper warning/explanation of what they did wrong.

 

They did receive a warning and this does exist. If they are at all confused by the reason for their ban as explained on the site, they're always welcome to reach out to a moderator.
 

Quote

before doing something like a trade their should be an obvious. "read the rules before submitting -rules here link-"

 

This appears every time you make a trade.
 

Quote

when building a site, a good recommend is to assume people have the attention span of toddlers looking at jingly keys. if it literally takes more then two clicks to get anywhere, you do lose the persons attention soon after.

It's unfortunate the world we live in.
 

Quote

if i were a fresh user, where would i find the rules strictly on dragon cave ONLY. completely acting as if the forums don't exist.

 

And they are. The ones that apply to the forum are on the forum, the ones that apply to the site are on the site.
 

Quote

If moderation team must assume innocence of a trade presenting a CB Green hatchling as a CB Neglected hatchling, then shouldn't moderation team then also assume innocence on people misinterpretting rules, not being able to locate trade hub rules, and/or sometimes don't see warning(s)?

These are two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other. Calling a green a neglected doesn't break the rules when you can see right there it's not a neglected. Same with the humor above - alright, be funny, as long as you're still telling people what you're asking for, whatever. Everyone can see what it is. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules, and ignorance of the law is not a defense.
 

Quote

3 hours ago, Starscream said:

The system in place malfunctioned.

It sounds like an extremely stressful situation for you and it does illustrate our point. The system isn’t good.

This malfunction was fixed by the way, Star was a bit remiss in not mentioning that.
 

Quote

While I'm sure some people would seek out loopholes, the problem is the people who are simply misunderstanding/misinterpreting the vagueness of the rules and being punished as a result. Most of the situations (at least, that I am aware of) aren't malicious at all, but a genuine attempt to follow the rules. 

Unfortunately as in the real world, ignorance of the law is not a defense. How do we know they're not malicious? How can I verify that over the internet? Anyone can say 'but I didn't MEANNN to' and that doesn't mean much after multiple warnings. If you're told twice, there's really no more 'but I didn't know/didn't mean to'.
 

Quote

I don't believe someone posting trades 3x trying to "directly contact someone" or "offering IOUs" warrants a permaban on trading

You don't? Why? If you're told three times what you're doing isn't allowed... why are you still doing it? There's clearly no other way to stop you (general you) than to just disable it. The 'directly contacting someone' also has severe implications for TJ irl, as the site cannot have any social features or it could put his livelihood in jeopardy. We take that seriously.
 

Quote

Not sure if people who are permabanned on trade hub can appeal their permabans, but if not there seriously needs to be a way to. 

Feel free to DM a mod or TJ. I can't guarantee anything will be done, but you can also do this at any time to clarify any warnings.

[Fuzzbucket]

37 minutes ago, Diggie said:

While I'm sure some people would seek out loopholes, the problem is the people who are simply misunderstanding/misinterpreting the vagueness of the rules and being punished as a result. Most of the situations (at least, that I am aware of) aren't malicious at all, but a genuine attempt to follow the rules. 

 

And they will have had a warning before they are punished in any lasting way. If they don't read the warnings that is down to THEM.

 

27 minutes ago, Laugh said:

 

I'm not quite sure if you're being literal or figurative with your wording here, but in case you're being literal, why would you resort to killing off a trade rather than taking it down for a first offense? The example I provided was a real occurrence and that was a response from the moderation team. What I'm getting at is if the mod team is okay with people "maybe" misunderstanding what dragon they have on trade and therefore won't take it down then they have to realize as well that not everyone is going to understand the rules as they do (especially with an international community), miss the warning notifications, and aren't able to locate said trading hub rules. 

 

Figurative, Close the trade if an item is misdescribed.

 

27 minutes ago, Laugh said:

 

I am all up for people taking accountability for their mistakes, but the punishment needs to fit the crime and I don't believe someone posting trades 3x trying to "directly contact someone" or "offering IOUs" warrants a permaban on trading, which is an integral part of the game.

 

When you've done it repeatedly and when it will - at least if these rules are posted - be made clear that you don't try to contact someone - and when it is very clear all over the place that IOUs ar NOT an integral part of the game - and that too can be added - the punishment does fit the crime.

 

27 minutes ago, Laugh said:

 

Yes, people will exploit any loophole, but that is such a small minority of people and does not reflect the majority. Those types of people eventually slip and should then be dealt with accordingly.  

 

If the small minority isn't banned, it spoils it for all of us.

 

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

You get a notification pushed out to you, it is definitely not silent. They are sometimes latent, yes, but not as much as you're claiming - trade reports are automatically closed with no consequence after -a period of time I'm not sure I'm allowed to specify- if no mod action has been taken to avoid exactly this. It's not on us if you don't check your notifs or remember. What do you want us to do, barge into your house, if you'll pardon the humor? Though I wouldn't be against a permanent line/reminder on the create a trade page that says 'hey have you have two strikes, be careful'.

That last is a good idea, yes.,

 

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

What would your solution to this 'unacceptable situation' be? I am genuinely asking and this isn't meant to be sarcastic.

 

None of the mods have the power to singularly knock someone off the hub immediately, we need multiple mods to do it. This is to solve your earlier problem of 'mod bias'. Okay, so do you want one mod to have that power? But you don't trust us not to have bias. So we need multiple mods. Unless we're TJ, and we immediately went to get TJ's attention to fix it and did our best. (I wouldn't mind more mods tho).

It's interesting to note that you're so worked up about this one instance - which we did take care of as soon as TJ was aware and smacked it, with apologies that it took so long - but you don't seem to realize that this happens like... once a month. Because usually we take care of it so quickly! You all just happened to catch the one time it got away from us and suddenly NOW it's a huge issue. But some dork does this to the hub like once a month and we always take care of it promptly, and almost no one notices. So really, one instance where it got away in a couple years of where this has been happening is pretty good. (and I can't speak to consequences for users but it's not something we allow 1 person to continue doing, to be clear. Absolutely unacceptable.)

 

Hugs, Kaini. I'm one player who is with you on this one, and I'm sure I'm not alone. There will ALWAYS be times when thing go wrong. It's totally unfair to blast the mods for something that did, on this occasion. If that starts to happen - mods will quit, and we may end up with that kind of thing happening all the time - because no-pone is prepared to monitor the hub and take action.

 

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

This is already a thing! You continue to ask for things that are... already in place? You get temp bans that ramp up long before you get a permanent - such as one day, a few days, etc.

 

Exactly this - it has already been said - many times.

 

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

No, this is fine because everyone has the ability to have a CB stat and catch one at any time. This could be applicable to anyone. The 2g SA would only be applicable to the spriter (or a singular person they had traded with).

That was the point I was trying to make. But actually - I think you can ask for a 2gen SA as a general thing, no ? as in any 2gen SA..... Most of the spriters would be able to produce if they liked.

 

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Unfortunately as in the real world, ignorance of the law is not a defense. How do we know they're not malicious? How can I verify that over the internet? Anyone can say 'but I didn't MEANNN to' and that doesn't mean much after multiple warnings. If you're told twice, there's really no more 'but I didn't know/didn't mean to'.

 

Quite.

21 minutes ago, Kaini said:

You don't? Why? If you're told three times what you're doing isn't allowed... why are you still doing it? There's clearly no other way to stop you (general you) than to just disable it. The 'directly contacting someone' also has severe implications for TJ irl, as the site cannot have any social features or it could put his livelihood in jeopardy. We take that seriously.

 

Couldn't agree more. You won't stop what you are told no to do - you are stopped by the mods. Fair enough.

 

Who'd be a mod ? It must be hell.

 

[Platykwak]

45 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Quote

before doing something like a trade their should be an obvious. "read the rules before submitting -rules here link-"

This appears every time you make a trade.
 

Quote

if i were a fresh user, where would i find the rules strictly on dragon cave ONLY. completely acting as if the forums don't exist.

And they are. The ones that apply to the forum are on the forum, the ones that apply to the site are on the site.

 

Sorry, but ain't no way we can seriously think that THIS is enough:

Quote

You can read more about Teleports in the help section.   [[Commentary: If the intended meaning here is actually "Read the rules" - then it should be written that way.]]

Quote

Message

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

 

[[Commentary: This, and the Help section, do not have enough information about the actual extent of the rules, and are worded too vaguely.]]

 

This right here is the entire problem addressed on this long thread! We need concise rules, and we need them easily found on the site itself.

 

8 hours ago, reddof-f6 said:

NOTICE of missing: DC rules.

if found please return immediately to front desk!

 

i agree that rules need to be posted more clearly at least. i've been on here for years and thinking on it. i really don't remember seeing the rules except for when i hunted them down before joining the site/ forums. ever since - where are they?

 

TL:DR: i searched the WHOLE forums and they basically don't exist anywhere. this is a nightmare. 🫠 and please read very last paragraph as well before replying.

_____

[[Shortened - GO READ IT IN ITS ENTIRETY IF YOU HAVEN'T!]]

_____

end results: absolutely ridiculous failure. the rules exist SOMEwhere, but they are literally nowhere. absolutely nowhere. and the true answer to where they are better not be a long chained list of: "oh you gotta go to this topic - go to page 10 out of 2000, scroll down to so-so's post and they got 5 of the rules. then you can find more if you-" ANYTHING like that is absolutely horrible and someone deserves a smack if they find that reasonable for finding site rules.

Well done, reddof-f6.

I think it was established some time earlier, that the "rules" are hidden in the forum in a feedback thread that was also long since been unpinned. It's absolutely ridiculous, and embarrasing to read any replies defending this current status.

Edited January 6 by Platykwak
Added commentary for DC quotes.

[blah]

45 minutes ago, Kaini said:

 trade reports are automatically closed with no consequence after -a period of time I'm not sure I'm allowed to specify- if no mod action has been taken to avoid exactly this.

Quote

There are so many steps and warnings before a perma ban

Quote

(and I can't speak to consequences for users but it's not something we allow 1 person to continue doing, to be clear. Absolutely unacceptable.)

You cannot not hear how bad that sounds. You’re not allowed to specify, you cannot speak to the consequences and there are “so many” steps and warnings?  That’s the opposite of clear rules and consequences. 

 

Quote

The 'directly contacting someone' also has severe implications for TJ irl, as the site cannot have any social features or it could put his livelihood in jeopardy. We take that seriously.

Of course I can’t find it now but TJ has recently posted in another thread that all of us should just leave judgement of that up to him. I really have a hard time believing “pm okay” in a trade message would have him fired. But that is leading back to an age old problem - we need an answer from him but we’re not getting one and the mods bear the consequences. 

 

46 minutes ago, Kaini said:

And they are. The ones that apply to the forum are on the forum, the ones that apply to the site are on the site.

Could you link us to the on site trading rules then, please? Preferably including an explanation of the punitive system with all possible consequences, the three strikes and so on? Including also an explanation of the ridiculous notion that the forums are “off site”, something that has caused constant confusion for all the time I’ve been here? And the tiny message on the trading hub itself obviously isn’t enough and isn’t what I mean. If that was enough, we wouldn’t be here. 

 

I’m seriously not being anti-mod or combative here. As far as I can see everyone is doing a great job and personally I’ve never had a problem with anyone. But clear, written out, easily understandable rules, easily found on site, and the possible consequences for breaking them don’t seem like an unreasonable thing to ask for. I understand all of you have lives and real jobs and this stuff here takes time and effort that you’re volunteering. Many people here would be prepared to help. Or be perfectly fine with waiting if we knew the process is just taking time. Or be very understanding if you said “not our job, TJ has to write the rules for his own site”. But your post just after @reddof-f6 painstakingly detailed how they “play-acted new player” and went to look for rules and did not find any seems a little tone deaf. And I for one would also be fine with just one mod making the decision if it wasn’t for that looming threat of the perma ban after three strikes - whatever a strike is defined as. 

[Fuzzbucket]

 

And for the record:

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/guidelines/