Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[blah]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

And for the record:

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/guidelines/

Those are forum rules for forum trading, posted on the forums. Which are also off-site. Seriously, no one here is trying to win or get one over the other. Unless I’m seriously misreading things, people just want a solution and insisting on principle for principle’s sake isn’t helping. 

[Metafarers]

The problem here is so beyond just 'we solved the problem and you're being given misinformation'. I'm not saying staff is trying to lie here. But frankly, if there is a such a large portion of people upset and frustrated with the way trade hub bans are handled, that is a sign that something is WRONG.  It cannot be solved by simply saying, 'we fixed it'. I'm sure this is a difficult situation for everyone but community grievances have to be heard and acknowledged, and the community needs to be worked with to solve it and regain trust. I know modding a community, especially one this old, must be incredibly hard. But simply stating that the problem is already solved is not helping, imho. The community is trying to solve the problem with suggestions and the airing of grievances, this doesn't need to be an us vs them situation. Please give these voices the benefit of the doubt here and try to work with them 🙏

[Fuzzbucket]

Someone said the rules for hub trading are pretty much the same, was all. .

Edited January 6 by Fuzzbucket

[blah]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Someone said the rules for hub trading are pretty much the same, was all. .

Ah, I didn’t see that, sorry about that.  

[Sketch]

1 hour ago, Kaini said:

You get a notification pushed out to you, it is definitely not silent. They are sometimes latent, yes, but not as much as you're claiming - trade reports are automatically closed with no consequence after -a period of time I'm not sure I'm allowed to specify- if no mod action has been taken to avoid exactly this. It's not on us if you don't check your notifs or remember. What do you want us to do, barge into your house, if you'll pardon the humor? Though I wouldn't be against a permanent line/reminder on the create a trade page that says 'hey have you have two strikes, be careful'.

 First off, I don't even know why this sort of information is under NDA?? ^ You guys keep weird information under wraps.

 

1 hour ago, Kaini said:

What would your solution to this 'unacceptable situation' be? I am genuinely asking and this isn't meant to be sarcastic.

 

None of the mods have the power to singularly knock someone off the hub immediately, we need multiple mods to do it. This is to solve your earlier problem of 'mod bias'. Okay, so do you want one mod to have that power? But you don't trust us not to have bias. So we need multiple mods. Unless we're TJ, and we immediately went to get TJ's attention to fix it and did our best. (I wouldn't mind more mods tho).

It's interesting to note that you're so worked up about this one instance - which we did take care of as soon as TJ was aware and smacked it, with apologies that it took so long - but you don't seem to realize that this happens like... once a month. Because usually we take care of it so quickly! You all just happened to catch the one time it got away from us and suddenly NOW it's a huge issue. But some dork does this to the hub like once a month and we always take care of it promptly, and almost no one notices. So really, one instance where it got away in a couple years of where this has been happening is pretty good. (and I can't speak to consequences for users but it's not something we allow 1 person to continue doing, to be clear. Absolutely unacceptable.)

I can't guarantee anything will be done, but you can also do this at any time to clarify any warnings.

Regardless though, you seem to have missed the last of what I said, in response to what my solution to this situation is. 
 If moderation isn't in charge of making changes to the site and are only responsible for rule-enforcement, then TJ needs to look here and fix up what isn't working so we stop going back and forth like this. Nobody's getting anywhere; players are complaining and suggesting fixes and mods have been shooting them down since the start of the thread. TJ needs to do something. 
He's the only one that can.

 

12 hours ago, Sketch said:

Real life gets in the way; I completely understand why you'd get so frustrated coming here and interpreting this as a "Mods vs Players" fight, but in reality it's all of us arguing over rules that were never properly instated or made public, leaving the moderation team entirely in charge of handling and personally telling people what rules mean when there's only a handful of you stretched across the site. That's why everyone is frustrated.

There haven't been new moderators added to the team in years and you guys keep losing folks because life gets in the way. There's hardly enough of you to keep up with everything going on all the time along with your personal lives; I think I even saw Star recently mention in the Discord that she hadn't been on the forums for days. I get it, and I think that to get around this, @TJ09ought to open up new mod applications sometime soon to help even the burden and keep the site running properly.

 

I'd also like for him to consider fixing up the Trade Hub Rules, instating a visible strike system, and adding the option of temporary bans for less-severe punishments.
 I don't care what way you look at it, losing access to trading with the majority of the site's population for a misunderstanding kinda sucks.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

And for the record:

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/guidelines/

And for the record, nobody that joins the site is going to come to the Forums and check the Trading Subforum Rules. 
reddof-f6 did a fantastic job of acting as a new player, which I think is something all of us should stop and put fresh eyes on.
I love this game and have grown up with it, but I would not recommend others to start playing it with how it stands now; it's daunting at times.


Also, thank you to everyone for your support on this issue. I really hope that this is something we can make a change to soon. 🤍
 

[Fuzzbucket]

5 minutes ago, Sketch said:

TJ needs to do something. 
He's the only one that can.

 

You may recall when Sock left... I think they said the same.

Edited January 6 by Fuzzbucket

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

You may recall when Sock left... I think they said the same.

That's not exactly a good point to bring up.

[Shadowdrake]

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

And if they feel their ban is unfair, they are always welcome to reach out to a moderator or TJ, rather than stirring up drama with other users uselessly.

Out of curiosity, has the team ever unbanned a trade ban? If not, there's little point in reaching out regardless of our own opinion.

[Fuzzbucket]

19 minutes ago, Sketch said:

That's not exactly a good point to bring up.

 

You want I should take it down ?

[Kaini]

Quote

You cannot not hear how bad that sounds. You’re not allowed to specify, you cannot speak to the consequences and there are “so many” steps and warnings?  That’s the opposite of clear rules and consequences. 

 

In what way does it sound bad? Explain it to me, because I'm doing my utmost to clear some things up here and I'm just flat being told 'what you said sounds bad'. This is why TJ keeps silent.

 

I not supposed to give away the intricacies of how we mod because it may be exploited. If TJ tells me it's okay to say the exact time period, I'll edit. Does it really matter what the exact cutoff is? My point was that reports do expire, I'm not randomly acting on a report from 3 months ago, that's impossible. That's what the concern was, I put it to rest, but that's not enough apparently. Now I'm being grilled for putting that to rest.

 

When I say 'I cannot speak to the consequences' I mean of that particular user that spewed hate. We don't publicly announce what happens to particular people, ie we don't 'air dirty laundry'. Would you like it if I said hey, @blah got banned from the trade hub after x warnings guys, don't worry they'll never act up again? We don't do that, that's all I meant. You took that entirely the wrong way.

 

Quote

Could you link us to the on site trading rules then, please?

 

They appear every time you create a trade, and are even elaborated on here: https://dragcave.net/help/trading

There you go.
 

Quote

I’m seriously not being anti-mod or combative here.

 

You are and I personally don't appreciate it, but I'm doing my best to take it in stride here. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation - if I save my sanity and just keep silent and takes things into consideration like TJ, it's bad, if I speak up to try to clear up misconceptions it's also bad and also I have to deal with it. Sorry.

 

Quote

The problem here is so beyond just 'we solved the problem and you're being given misinformation'.

 

Never did I say the problem was entirely solved - and I and the rest of the staff are open to suggestions here, still. I AM clearing up misconceptions and misinformation, though. Keep suggesting edits and better wording, we're listening.
 

Quote

I'm not saying staff is trying to lie here.

No, but you're putting words in my mouth and making assumptions, again.
 

Quote

TJ needs to look here

He sees all of this and takes it all into consideration. He just knows better than me to stick his hand in the lion's den.
 

Quote

That's not exactly a good point to bring up.

Yea and there's a buttload of rumor and misconception here too, that is not relevant and I will not discuss, so let's not.

Edited January 6 by Kaini

[Fuzzbucket]

3 minutes ago, Kaini said:

They appear every time you create a trade, and are even elaborated on here: https://dragcave.net/help/trading

There you go.

What we get is somewhat unspecific:

 

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden

 

It would be VERY useful if the link you've posted were on the page where you set up your trade. Not as "more info about teleports", but as "rules for trading in the hub."

[schenanigans]

Quote

I don't believe someone posting trades 3x trying to "directly contact someone" or "offering IOUs" warrants a permaban on trading

 

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

You don't? Why? If you're told three times what you're doing isn't allowed... why are you still doing it? There's clearly no other way to stop you (general you) than to just disable it. The 'directly contacting someone' also has severe implications for TJ irl, as the site cannot have any social features or it could put his livelihood in jeopardy. We take that seriously.

 

IRT to rules on site vs forums...

Quote

And they are. The ones that apply to the forum are on the forum, the ones that apply to the site are on the site.

 

Where on the site rules are IOUs disallowed? Under the current site rules, someone can put in their want that they accept IOUs and link to a group (allowed) that gives various contact information. This applies to anyone that sees the trade should they wish to pursue this option, or anyone else can offer what they are asking for if they already have it on hand. 

 

Technically anyone asking for an auto'd egg to be returned, if the egg is still in the AP, is relevant to anyone who is able to view the hub and the ap at the time to return that egg, which can be a pretty wide number of people. You are not targeting any one person at this point, as not any one person has the egg. 

 

The key here is "relevant to anyone who is browsing" in the rules is an incredibly wide definition. Technically asking for a 2G Thuwed is, in ANY capacity that you wish to view it, against the rules. But it is also unnecessarily harsh to even enforce hub rules on these few instances, or you just force players to actually make the hub an even more frustrating place. The current situation will (and does) result in players asking for something they aren't even actually willing to accept just to fit within the realm of "allowed," defeating the purpose and intent. 

 

This is the kind of clarity players are asking for.

I find it really odd how unwilling and the level of fighting going on for a problem that CLEARLY needs clarification. There IS a lot of ambiguity and even clarifying SOME of that does not inhibit the mods from acting as they deem fit in other circumstances. 

 

Players can only work with what they know. The anecdotes and points they are bringing up, are what they see and experience, and with no clarity from the team, that's all they can base their ideas or decisions off of. 

As far as I see it, the ban seems to be a 3 strikes you're out, before you get a permaban. What is the longest ban warning prior to a permaban? The longest I have ever seen anyone mention is a week, maybe a month? Why is 6 months or even a year not a step prior to a permaban? Not being able to access a key feature of the site AND MANDATING SOCIAL SPACES for trading should be a last resort, yet it seems to be defended as people being heinous or malicious when it's most often just ignorance or innocent misunderstandings. 

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, Kaini said:

In what way does it sound bad? Explain it to me, because I'm doing my utmost to clear some things up here and I'm just flat being told 'what you said sounds bad'. This is why TJ keeps silent.

 

I not supposed to give away the intricacies of how we mod because it may be exploited. If TJ tells me it's okay to say the exact time period, I'll edit. Does it really matter what the exact cutoff is? My point was that reports do expire, I'm not randomly acting on a report from 3 months ago, that's impossible. That's what the concern was, I put it to rest, but that's not enough apparently. Now I'm being grilled for putting that to rest.

 

When I say 'I cannot speak to the consequences' I mean of that particular user that spewed hate. We don't publicly announce what happens to particular people, ie we don't 'air dirty laundry'. Would you like it if I said hey, @blah got banned from the trade hub after x warnings guys, don't worry they'll never act up again? We don't do that, that's all I meant. You took that entirely the wrong way.

Kaini, users are bringing their personal experiences and grievances here and are being met with you picking apart their posts and saying "No. That doesn't happen. That isn't a thing. Nobody does that. Nobody gets banned for that. It doesn't work like that." but at the same time your position doesn't allow you to openly discuss how things work, so I'm going to step out and say what everyone is thinking: it does come across a bit like gaslighting, whether you intend for it to or not.
 

7 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Quote

TJ needs to look here

He sees all of this and takes it all into consideration. He just knows better than me to stick his hand in the lion's den.

Maybe he ought to come forward and say something like "Hey, this is getting out of hand. I'll see what I can do to fix things up." and actually do it, instead of having others speak for him as if he's some omnipotent being, and not the admin for an adoptables clicksite. 
 That's all we want at this point - honest acknowledgement that we aren't just screaming into the void and won't get covered up and put under an "answered" label with no changes made.

[Kaini]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It would be VERY useful if the link you've posted were on the page where you set up your trade. Not as "more info about teleports", but as "rules for trading in the hub."

 

Yep, that would be nice! I agree.
 

1 minute ago, schenanigans said:

Where on the site rules are IOUs disallowed? Under the current site rules, someone can put in their want that they accept IOUs and link to a group (allowed) that gives various contact information. This applies to anyone that sees the trade should they wish to pursue this option, or anyone else can offer what they are asking for if they already have it on hand.

IOUs are not possible on the site alone, though. There is no possible way to coordinate an IOU on the site alone, and if you direct people to the forum for it, you are subject to the forum rules where they are disallowed. And if you do manage to coordinate an IOU on the site only by 'talking' to the other person with trade messages, that violates the hub rules by directing messages at a specific person.

 

2 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

Technically anyone asking for an auto'd egg to be returned, if the egg is still in the AP, is relevant to anyone who is able to view the hub and the ap at the time to return that egg, which can be a pretty wide number of people. You are not targeting any one person at this point, as not any one person has the egg.

You are targeting the one person who picks up the egg. Only that one person can actually respond to the trade. If you ask for a CB gold, anyone can catch that and multiple exist. Yes anyone can catch an auto ap'd egg, but only one exists so only one person can respond. With a CB gold for example, anyone who currently has one can respond.

 

5 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

Technically asking for a 2G Thuwed is, in ANY capacity that you wish to view it, against the rules. But it is also unnecessarily harsh to even enforce hub rules on these few instances, or you just force players to actually make the hub an even more frustrating place. The current situation will (and does) result in players asking for something they aren't even actually willing to accept just to fit within the realm of "allowed," defeating the purpose and intent.

 

Yes it is against the rules, to ask for a specific 2G Thuwed. If that makes a more frustrating experience that's unfortunate, but if you're looking for something that specific the hub isn't really useful anyway. You'd need to just contact the one person that has it. If you have to just ask for any 2G thuwed, players are welcomed to decline ones they don't want. I don't think it's going to be possible to rid the hub of all frustration and still keep people from being harassed/keep site rules enforced. it's just not.
 

8 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

Players can only work with what they know. The anecdotes and points they are bringing up, are what they see and experience, and with no clarity from the team, that's all they can base their ideas or decisions off of.

Yea and I'm trying to be clearer about how stuff works as much as possible/I'm allowed. I totally agree that the rules could be written a little differently to be clearer, but some of what was being asked for was wrong or based on misinfo and I just came here to clear that up. Not trying to shut down potential re-writes, continue suggesting them.
 

Quote

Kaini, users are bringing their personal experiences and grievances here and are being met with you picking apart their posts and saying "No. That doesn't happen. That isn't a thing. Nobody does that. Nobody gets banned for that. It doesn't work like that." but at the same time your position doesn't allow you to openly discuss how things work, so I'm going to step out and say what everyone is thinking: it does come across a bit like gaslighting, whether you intend for it to or not.

Sigh. This is such a misused term. I'm not 'gaslighting' anyone, I'm trying to clarify things have been blown up by rumors. If you choose not to believe me, okay, I have a view of behind the scenes that you don't, fine, but it was frankly confounding and hurtful to come here and read so many accusations that just had no basis in reality.
 

Quote

That's all we want at this point - honest acknowledgement that we aren't just screaming into the void and won't get covered up and put under an "answered" label with no changes made.

You are not screaming into the void. TJ reads all of this. I'm reading all of it and discussing it.

[Moriaty]

My celestial multi-clutched with 4 eggs, and I lost all of them. Now I want to get one of them back. I posted a trade saying "W: 2G from dragon code abcde" (abcde is the parent, to avoid directly naming the children's code). Is that against the rule? Is the effectively-asking-for-the-same-thing "W: either of code xxxxx, bbbbb, ccccc, ddddd" (where these are the four potential auto'd egg of abcde) against the rule? It is multiple options so targeting multiple people after all

 

I've seen many, MANY trades within holiday season or thuwed breeding season that goes "2G from blue mistletoe auto, or offer", or "2G aeon thuwed auto, or offer", typically after said rare eggs have just floated past AP and they weren't able to catch it. I've never seen them taken down, I always assumed it was fine. (of course, correct me if I've been wrong). IF this had been fine and the above scenario not fine, what makes the difference? Because salt and thuweds are special dragons? Because it said "this specific dragon auto, or offer"? Then I could put that in my "look for one egg" trade too ("Want: auto aaaaa (<- that's a code), or offer"?) and be fine? IF both are not fine I guess I should start reporting the latter when I see them on hub. 

 

I don't typically use hub for this purpose (or make public trades for much at all) so I personally haven't encountered these kind of issue but this is honestly getting more confusing the more I read this thread and what I've observed in the past *appears* to be contradicting things the mods are saying in this thread...

[blah]

3 minutes ago, Kaini said:

In what way does it sound bad? Explain it to me, because I'm doing my utmost to clear some things up here and I'm just flat being told 'what you said sounds bad'. This is why TJ keeps silent.

 

I not supposed to give away the intricacies of how we mod because it may be exploited. If TJ tells me it's okay to say the exact time period, I'll edit. Does it really matter what the exact cutoff is? My point was that reports do expire, I'm not randomly acting on a report from 3 months ago, that's impossible. That's what the concern was, I put it to rest, but that's not enough apparently. Now I'm being grilled for putting that to rest.

 

When I say 'I cannot speak to the consequences' I mean of that particular user that spewed hate. We don't publicly announce what happens to particular people, ie we don't 'air dirty laundry'. Would you like it if I said hey, @blah got banned from the trade hub after x warnings guys, don't worry they'll never act up again? We don't do that, that's all I meant. You took that entirely the wrong way.

 

It sounds bad as in “breaking unspecified rules will lead to nebulous consequences”. If my students don’t do their homework they know exactly both what the homework was and what the consequences are for not doing it. If there was a clear, spelled out system, you could just point at it and say “user x has faced consequences according to the system” and still none of us would know at what “stage” of the system user x was.
 

12 minutes ago, Kaini said:

They appear every time you create a trade, and are even elaborated on here: https://dragcave.net/help/trading

There you go.

What we’re trying and clearly failing to do is point out that no one, neither a new nor an experienced player is going to look under “Help” when they are looking for “Rules” and also that those rules written there need to be expanded on and be more detailed since clearly more rules exist and the rules that are spelled out can easily be misinterpreted, and that the consequences for breaking them need to be included. Many people here have had many good suggestions for how. 
 

20 minutes ago, Kaini said:

You are and I personally don't appreciate it, but I'm doing my best to take it in stride here. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation - if I save my sanity and just keep silent and takes things into consideration like TJ, it's bad, if I speak up to try to clear up misconceptions it's also bad and also I have to deal with it. Sorry.

I promise I’m not on some weird vendetta against you or other mods. I’d like more comprehensive, better visible trading rules to save both users and moderators time and heartache. English isn’t my first language, I’m honestly unsure how to express it better. 

[Kaini]

1 minute ago, Moriaty said:

I've seen many, MANY trades within holiday season or thuwed breeding season that goes "2G from blue mistletoe auto, or offer", or "2G aeon thuwed auto, or offer", typically after said rare eggs have just floated past AP and they weren't able to catch it. I've never seen them taken down, I always assumed it was fine. (of course, correct me if I've been wrong). IF this had been fine and the above scenario not fine, what makes the difference? Because salt and thuweds are special dragons? Because it said "this specific dragon auto, or offer"? Then I could put that in my "look for one egg" trade too ("Want: auto aaaaa (<- that's a code), or offer"?) and be fine? IF both are not fine I guess I should start reporting the latter when I see them on hub. 

 

I don't typically use hub for this purpose (or make public trades for much at all) so I personally haven't encountered these kind of issue but this is honestly getting more confusing the more I read this thread and what I've observed in the past *appears* to be contradicting things the mods are saying in this thread...

 

Yea, those aren't fine and they should have been reported, sorry to say. Do people actually report them? No, so we didn't see them and that's why you continued to see them. Am I going to spend time out of my day making reports myself for mundane stuff like that? Probably not. This is again people just ... assuming things based on what they've 'seen'. Just because those trades didn't get reported and removed that you saw, you just assumed they were allowed. Those sorts of trades have been removed in the past when they're reported, but again... most people aren't gonna report that and I'm not going out of my way to be draconian. Is that fair? I dunno, probably not? Does every person who speeds on the highway get caught? Nope. Is that particularly fair to the one guy that does get caught? not really. But you don't go out and speed and break the law just because everyone is, and if you choose to, you understand you MAY get caught and pulled over. Guess it's like that.

[Sketch]

8 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Quote

Technically asking for a 2G Thuwed is, in ANY capacity that you wish to view it, against the rules. But it is also unnecessarily harsh to even enforce hub rules on these few instances, or you just force players to actually make the hub an even more frustrating place. The current situation will (and does) result in players asking for something they aren't even actually willing to accept just to fit within the realm of "allowed," defeating the purpose and intent.

Yes it is against the rules, to ask for a specific 2G Thuwed. If that makes a more frustrating experience that's unfortunate, but if you're looking for something that specific the hub isn't really useful anyway. You'd need to just contact the one person that has it. If you have to just ask for any 2G thuwed, players are welcomed to decline ones they don't want. I don't think it's going to be possible to rid the hub of all frustration and still keep people from being harassed/keep site rules enforced. it's just not.

Only one person can breed a 2G Thuwed. Therefore, this must also stand for multi-clutched holiday eggs or celestials/rays, or the mentioning of specific SAlts as an auto-accept. IMO, anything that's in the AP is fair game.
 

8 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Quote

Kaini, users are bringing their personal experiences and grievances here and are being met with you picking apart their posts and saying "No. That doesn't happen. That isn't a thing. Nobody does that. Nobody gets banned for that. It doesn't work like that." but at the same time your position doesn't allow you to openly discuss how things work, so I'm going to step out and say what everyone is thinking: it does come across a bit like gaslighting, whether you intend for it to or not.

Sigh. This is such a misused term. I'm not 'gaslighting' anyone, I'm trying to clarify things have been blown up by rumors. If you choose not to believe me, okay, I have a view of behind the scenes that you don't, fine, but it was frankly confounding and hurtful to come here and read so many accusations that just had no basis in reality.

Really? Because I have personally experienced and had lengthy conversations with others regarding many of the things that you claim are false "rumors". As well as you having a look "behind the scenes", we're among the thousands of players "on the scene" acting it out and living it.
We've been talking about them for years and you're sitting here denying half of these issues to our faces. It's insulting.

Edited January 6 by Sketch

[Kaini]

1 minute ago, Sketch said:

Really? Because I have personally experienced and had lengthy conversations with others regarding many of the things that you claim are false "rumors". As well as you having a look "behind the scenes", we're among the thousands of players "on the scene" acting it out and living it.
We've been talking about them for years and you're sitting here denying half of these issues to our faces. It's insulting.

 

Well, you insisting things happened that didn't, or insisting we did things we absolutely know we didn't is also insulting. So we're kind of at an impasse here.

[Platykwak]

...Bruh I found this particular thread development kinda hilarious:

p1

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Quote

if i were a fresh user, where would i find the rules strictly on dragon cave ONLY. completely acting as if the forums don't exist.

And they are. The ones that apply to the forum are on the forum, the ones that apply to the site are on the site.

p2

1 hour ago, blah said:

Could you link us to the on site trading rules then, please? Preferably including an explanation of the punitive system with all possible consequences, the three strikes and so on? Including also an explanation of the ridiculous notion that the forums are “off site”, something that has caused constant confusion for all the time I’ve been here? And the tiny message on the trading hub itself obviously isn’t enough and isn’t what I mean. If that was enough, we wouldn’t be here.

p3

1 hour ago, blah said:

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

And for the record:

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/guidelines/

Those are forum rules for forum trading, posted on the forums. Which are also off-site. Seriously, no one here is trying to win or get one over the other. Unless I’m seriously misreading things, people just want a solution and insisting on principle for principle’s sake isn’t helping. 

p4

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Someone said the rules for hub trading are pretty much the same, was all. .

 

Apologies @Fuzzbucket - I know you are not writing on behald of the mod team, and I swear I'm actually not singling you out here. You've been helpful, and you did give an answer! But as this thread has been going on for 10 pages now, and this circling back and forth has been happening since the beginning - this one reads like a satire by now!

 

As you also chimed in above there, yeah, we need a better page, better links, and the rules need to be written clearly. Your suggestions have been very good with also great further improvement ideas by others.

 

...Woulda thunk it's already been elaborated as to why and how and what, many times, but the conversation is still going strong.

[Fuzzbucket]

23 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

IRT to rules on site vs forums...

 

Where on the site rules are IOUs disallowed? Under the current site rules, someone can put in their want that they accept IOUs and link to a group (allowed) that gives various contact information. This applies to anyone that sees the trade should they wish to pursue this option, or anyone else can offer what they are asking for if they already have it on hand. 

IOUs are not allowed as a part of the game:

• No IOU topics or posts are allowed. IOU's are not an option of the game, IOU's are agreements made between members. As we (DC) are not responsible for any IOU's made, allowing a topic/posts gives members the impression we condone the practice, which we don't. Therefore, these topics/posts will not be allowed. Members accept IOU's at their own risk, we at DC are not responsible for any agreements made between members. No IOUs in threads includes both asking for or offering to take them.

And if you are on the hub, you have to offer an item if you are offering in a trade. There is no way to offer an IOU. It;s a virtual thing.

 

As Kaini says:

10 minutes ago, Kaini said:

IOUs are not possible on the site alone, though. There is no possible way to coordinate an IOU on the site alone, and if you direct people to the forum for it, you are subject to the forum rules where they are disallowed. And if you do manage to coordinate an IOU on the site only by 'talking' to the other person with trade messages, that violates the hub rules by directing messages at a specific person.

 

23 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

Technically anyone asking for an auto'd egg to be returned, if the egg is still in the AP, is relevant to anyone who is able to view the hub and the ap at the time to return that egg, which can be a pretty wide number of people. You are not targeting any one person at this point, as not any one person has the egg. 

Only one person will ever be in a position to offer it, once it is caught. And it certainly falls foul of the no asking for a specific egg.

 

23 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

The key here is "relevant to anyone who is browsing" in the rules is an incredibly wide definition. Technically asking for a 2G Thuwed is, in ANY capacity that you wish to view it, against the rules.

I don't think so if you are OK with ANY 2g Thuwed ?

 

23 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

As far as I see it, the ban seems to be a 3 strikes you're out, before you get a permaban. What is the longest ban warning prior to a permaban? The longest I have ever seen anyone mention is a week, maybe a month? Why is 6 months or even a year not a step prior to a permaban? Not being able to access a key feature of the site AND MANDATING SOCIAL SPACES for trading should be a last resort, yet it seems to be defended as people being heinous or malicious when it's most often just ignorance or innocent misunderstandings. 

 

If you've already been warned, you shouldn't be misunderstanding any more. And as I understand it, temporary bans come before permabans.

 

10 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Only one person can breed a 2G Thuwed. Therefore, this must also stand for multi-clutched holiday eggs or celestials/rays, or the mentioning of specific SAlts as an auto-accept. IMO, anything that's in the AP is fair game.

 

TJ tends to breed Thuweds in bulk to the AP. So - yes he's the only one can produce them - but when he does his thing, there are usually several out there to be caught - and then offered.

[Alwerien]

2 minutes ago, Kaini said:

 

Yea, those aren't fine and they should have been reported, sorry to say. Do people actually report them? No, so we didn't see them and that's why you continued to see them. Am I going to spend time out of my day making reports myself for mundane stuff like that? Probably not. This is again people just ... assuming things based on what they've 'seen'. Just because those trades didn't get reported and removed that you saw, you just assumed they were allowed. Those sorts of trades have been removed in the past when they're reported, but again... most people aren't gonna report that and I'm not going out of my way to be draconian. Is that fair? I dunno, probably not? Does every person who speeds on the highway get caught? Nope. Is that particularly fair to the one guy that does get caught? not really. But you don't go out and speed and break the law just because everyone is, and if you choose to, you understand you MAY get caught and pulled over. Guess it's like that.

 

So if it's something you personally consider mundane and not worth spending time of your day to make reports, how can something like that if reported be treated as worthy of permaban? This does seem rather contradicting. The example with highway speeding there would apply only if there were also cops going by and deciding to not catch him cos they don't want to waste the time.

 

I would also like to say that with having a certain positon (like being a mod for example) comes a certain responsibility you don't seem to be willing to accept. As far as I have been always taught, being a moderator is a customer service job, even when it's a free position. You are there for the users, they are not there for you.  

 

Also a lot of these infractions are not "ignorance of a law", it's misinterpreting it. Even in real life where laws are much clearer written, there exists something called legal interpretations. Rules and laws can and will be interpreted differently and f you don't want anyone to feel treated unfairly (which you seem to be saying is unfair to yiu), those rules need to be written clearly to minimize the chance of said misinterpration.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

8 minutes ago, Platykwak said:

Apologies @Fuzzbucket - I know you are not writing on behald of the mod team, and I swear I'm actually not singling you out here. You've been helpful, and you did give an answer! But as this thread has been going on for 10 pages now, and this circling back and forth has been happening since the beginning - this one reads like a satire by now!

 

As you also chimed in above there, yeah, we need a better page, better links, and the rules need to be written clearly. Your suggestions have been very good with also great further improvement ideas by others.

 

...Woulda thunk it's already been elaborated as to why and how and what, many times, but the conversation is still going strong.

No apologies needed. I know we need better and more prominent rules., But I also think the mods are doing the best they can with a difficult situation - and as Kaini just said - they only act on reported trades on the whole (I imagine sometimes they happen to see a shocker by accident) so sure - a good few will pass through unreported. I just saw one a few minutes ago - but I didn't report it.... It wasn't heinous enough to bother with ! What saddens me more is people who actually do ask for the impossible - a gender swap for a Garland; a CB Ushgorn....

Edited January 6 by Fuzzbucket

[animatedrose]

At this point, nothing either users or mods say is ultimately going to do anything. Short of giving up and accepting that nothing is going to change since this has been a problem for years now, all we can do is wait on if TJ dubs this worth his time to respond to or if the thread will be shut without a word. All we're doing is going in circles, yelling at each other and not making any positive progress. So all anyone can do is give up and wait on TJ.

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

If you've already been warned, you shouldn't be misunderstanding any more. And as I understand it, temporary bans come before permabans.

 Sadly as others have pointed out, we might not get notifications for a warning for weeks due to a backlog. In that time, you may make multiple offending posts that suddenly rack up to a ban.
When you get a warning, you aren't really explained to what for unless you go and seek out the answer from a moderator themselves. The site isn't helpful in preventing more offenses.

 

6 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

TJ tends to breed Thuweds in bulk to the AP. So - yes he's the only one can produce them - but when he does his thing, there are usually several out there to be caught - and then offered.

Spriters may also breed multiple of their alts at a time, I know Odeen and TCA had some batches this Christmas that I tried hunting down with others. Same as a Thuwed.

Also, I don't know if you saw, but I did respond to your post concerning the comment about Sock. I think someone removed it.
So anyway, please leave it. 🤍