Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[MissK.]

28 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Where do Thuweds and SAs fall foul of that ?

 

 

Do you mean that the phrasing doesn't cover salts/thuweds? Asking for a specific salt/thuwed would be asking for an egg from a specific dragon, so it's covered. 

[laevsk]

1 hour ago, Melas said:

popping in to note that the second rule may need clarification for players not involved in the community. for instance: saying 'a specific dragon or code, or offspring of a specific dragon on the site (even your own)'

 

the reliance on terms like saltkin or thuwed will trip up players who don't know what these are. while we're not going so far to explain it (especially when afaik they're not used on the site, unlike #cb and #bred), avoiding the use of these terms in the default rule itself will help players who don't know what they mean, so they won't find themselves confused as to the meaning of the whole rule!

 

Keep in mind that this list is a brief reminder list of the rules at the point of teleport - with a link to the more defined rules included (when the defined rules are done, which can happen if/when these more basic rules are accepted).  This group of rules is supposed to be short and concise.  The expectation would be that every player should read the more fully explained explanations at some point, which could explain what SAlt and Thuwed and auto-abandon (etc) mean.

 

I feel that what we have so far more fully expresses the rules that are already being used by moderators, but if we try to define every little thing on the teleport page it will become a big block of text that players skip to get to the teleport section. I'd honestly like to see the list even shorter but this seems to cover most of the biggest concerns.

[Kaini]

5 hours ago, Platykwak said:

 maybe don't go out your way to claim/admit that the rules were badly written on purpose because questions are hard.

 

Not at all what I said.

2 hours ago, Melas said:

 

the reliance on terms like saltkin or thuwed will trip up players who don't know what these are. while we're not going so far to explain it (especially when afaik they're not used on the site, unlike #cb and #bred), avoiding the use of these terms in the default rule itself will help players who don't know what they mean, so they won't find themselves confused as to the meaning of the whole rule!

 

This. Community specific terms should be avoided entirely. We get constant questions as to what these mean on discord.  

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, MissK. said:

 

Do you mean that the phrasing doesn't cover salts/thuweds? Asking for a specific salt/thuwed would be asking for an egg from a specific dragon, so it's covered. 

 

No - asking for "a 2gen Saltkin" covers a LOADS of possibilities. Asking for one from - say M e t e o r  is not OK and would be directed at one person. I would be very sorry if we couldn't ask for general things like that - I collect multigen salts and I am doing very well in the hub - I would be screwed if I couldn't' ask for those, or pick up on trades offering them. And peeopl on forum ask as well - and all the info IS there.

What about CB and the like ? People ask about that too,, and "3rd gen even" and "hybrid"....

 

23 minutes ago, laevsk said:

I feel that what we have so far more fully expresses the rules that are already being used by moderators, but if we try to define every little thing on the teleport page it will become a big block of text that players skip to get to the teleport section. I'd honestly like to see the list even shorter but this seems to cover most of the biggest concerns.

 100% agree.

[laevsk]

Kaini, you're saying that we shouldn't have SAlt, Thuwed, auto-abandon in those rules?  That surprises me.

 

I'm not sure how just saying "Don't ask for a specific egg"  or "trades should be applicable to many people" is enough.  They're too vague and open to a lot of interpretation - which is why there's so much confusion already. Identifying the particular requests that break this rule adds some clarity, even if a small number of players won't (yet) understand the commonly used terms.  

 

Since players are going to use terms like SA!t and Thuwed in trades anyhow, using those terms within these rules seems absolutely sensible to me.  Newbies are going to ask regardless since the words are often seen in trade.  If the list of rules is linked to the explanations, then (hopefully) at least some of those newbies will go to that link and learn by themselves.   

 

Openly offering the information is better than having it obscure or hard to find.  There will always be those who fail to read the rules or interpret them wrong.  But the more exact and clear they are, with further explanation for those confused or needing definition of terms, can only help.

 

Edited to add:  another thought on this.  In the following suggested rule, "2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling" could be hyperlinked directly to the explanation of these terms.  Even someone new to this site will know how to click on a link - and voila! They'll learn what these frequently used trade terms mean.  I really think avoiding these terms in the rules is a mistake.  Instead, having them there linked to a clear explanation will be beneficial to both new and experienced players.

 

Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling.

Edited January 9 by laevsk

[Fuzzbucket]

 

Agree 100%. Disallowing those terms entirely will destroy the usefulness of the hub for a lot of us.

[GhostMouse]

I've been following this thread for a while and trying to formulate my thoughts. I fully agree that the rules need to be written out clearly and in simple language.

 

9 hours ago, KageSora said:

Now, see, this comes off as "well, the rules were left deliberately unclear to users so that the mod team could feel free to arbitrarily hand out punishment or not based on how they, supposedly as a team, are feeling at the time or how whoever is involved interprets the rules instead of having a clear guide on enforcement".

 

I, for one, now no longer have much confidence in the mod team to objectively and consistently enforce rules for trade violations, since we now have a mod on record stating that the rules are likely intentionally vague and implying this is for good reason.

 

This is the vibe I keep getting in this thread from some of the arguments that have been made. This is how it comes off, even if that isn't the intent. It sounds really bad.

 

And honestly, how hard must it be to moderate if the mods themselves don't even have a solid, clear list of what rules they're enforcing, and what the punishments for those are? I would hate to be in their position. I've never personally had a bad interaction with any moderators here, I want to be clear I have nothing against any of them. It's just sort of horrifying to learn how things work behind the scenes around here.

 

22 hours ago, laevsk said:

- Describe what you're offering and/or what you want.

 

If I can be really nitpicky for a moment, I'd love to see this changed to:

- Describe what you want and/or what you're offering.

 

The primary purpose of the "wants" field is listing what you want, and therefore it should be listed first here. Listing what you're offering is a secondary function of the wants field, so it should come second.

[laevsk]

From what I heard and seen, the biggest infractions in trade seem to involve asking for a specific code/egg, mentioning IOUs, and referring to offsite contact (i.e. discord). 

 

To alleviate confusion, the rule clarifications directly address those topics. 

 

We seem to be going in circles on terminology.  What we probably should focus on is whether or not the proposed rules are going to make things clear for the majority of players, while remembering that each rule can be further explained in a linked page.

 

The rules currently don't mention SAlts or Thuweds and new players are already asking "constant questions as to what these mean on discord." Having the terms in the rules and further explained by link should provide new players with an explanation on-site.  After all, SAlts and Thuweds ARE a part of Dragon Cave. 

[meeps114]

Just stopping by to say that I support extra clarity! This site is meant to be accessible, and I see no downsides to having better communication with expectations clearly laid out. Just because something is "common sense" to you, doesn't mean that it will be to someone else (especially kids and those who English isn't a first language for.)

 

I also just think the paragraph format as it exists right now makes it easier to miss things. Bullet point format makes a world of difference. I hope that change is implemented. 

12 minutes ago, laevsk said:

From what I heard and seen, the biggest infractions in trade seem to involve asking for a specific code/egg, mentioning IOUs, and referring to offsite contact (i.e. discord). 

 

Maybe I missed this while skimming, but wasn't it clarified by Kaini that providing a contact is okay as long as you have wants listed (and don't put it as a link)?

 

On 8/4/2020 at 10:30 AM, Kaini said:

Saying 'PM x on the forum' is fine if you have an actual want listed. if that's the only thing, eh. You need to list an actual want.

Okay, I found where it was initially stated that it was allowed. Then, later in the thread, it sounds like mentioning contact info isn't allowed. @Kainican you clarify if forum contact and/or discord contact is allowed?? From my understanding, your later comments were qualifying the forum as being "off site."

 

 

Edited January 9 by meeps114

[Wisadel]

16 minutes ago, meeps114 said:

Maybe I missed this while skimming, but wasn't it clarified by Kaini that providing a contact is okay as long as you have wants listed (and don't put it as a link)?

 

Did Kaini say this was ok to say in trade message, or that it was ok to point to a group? If it's the former well that contradicts what is said recently! If it's the latter though that solves one question people are waiting on answers for 

 

On 1/6/2024 at 2:04 PM, Kaini said:

Ex: Oh but I can post my discord username for people to contact me there? Mmk! Must totally be allowed. Not a link.

 

 

EDIT: holy crap you are right. It's way back 3 years when she said pm on forum is ok. I guess either forum and discord are still treated as different objects or the rules have somehow changed over the year?? (this is on page 2 btw if anyone want to search for it)

 

On 8/4/2020 at 7:30 AM, Kaini said:

Saying 'PM x on the forum' is fine if you have an actual want listed. if that's the only thing, eh. You need to list an actual want.

 

Even funnier another mod said they don't remember if this is fine or not

 

On 4/15/2021 at 8:56 PM, purpledragonclaw said:

If players are allowed (or not allowed) to include forum info in trades we need to explicitly state that. That could definitely be more clearer since there was confusion in the past on whether or not forum links count as off-site or not. Heck, I don't remember the end result of that discussion, so I'll have to check!

 

Edited January 9 by Moriaty
Can't assume pronouns, removing

[Kaini]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Agree 100%. Disallowing those terms entirely will destroy the usefulness of the hub for a lot of us.

 

Whoa Nelly- never said they'd be disallowed in the hub? No no no. Use em all you want, just that they have no place in the revised rules ya'll are proposing. Find a way to word it that doesn't use confusing community only terms. 

[Fuzzbucket]

I suppose discord is a definite OFF SITE thing.

Just now, Kaini said:

 

Whoa Nelly- never said they'd be disallowed in the hub? No no no. Use em all you want, just that they have no place in the revised rules ya'll are proposing. Find a way to word it that doesn't use confusing community only terms. 

 

THANK you - that was deeply unclear for a few minutes.

 

[laevsk]

4 minutes ago, GhostMouse said:

If I can be really nitpicky for a moment, I'd love to see this changed to:

- Describe what you want and/or what you're offering.

 

The primary purpose of the "wants" field is listing what you want, and therefore it should be listed first here. Listing what you're offering is a secondary function of the wants field, so it should come second.

 

Given that "Wants:" is how every trade offer starts, this makes sense to me and is easily changed.  Thank you.

 

Proposed rules, amended, with clarifications from mods still pending. I removed the line about links as it's impossible to link anyway.

 

Trading hub rules include, but are not limited by, the following:

- Describe what you want and/or what you're offering.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling. [Linked to definitions]

- Do not direct others off-site (w/one exception, the forum? Is "see group xxxxx" allowed as it's on-site?).

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's or offer something you don't currently own.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player. (To me this includes hate speech, but that can be added).

- Trades must be completed in one teleport - combining trades is not allowed.

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, including loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules]. (can change to "It's your responsibility to read the following information on rules: [link]" or something more direct like that).

 

 

[meeps114]

Just now, Kaini said:

 

This.

Okay, so...forum contact is 100% allowed, and discord contact is 100% not allowed? 

14 minutes ago, Moriaty said:

Even funnier another mod said they don't remember if this is fine or not

It's almost like the posted rules were not clear enough, so much so that even the mods are unsure at times. I hope that those who got permabanned are able to appeal if they were genuinely confused by these unclear rules.

[laevsk]

24 minutes ago, Kaini said:

Whoa Nelly- never said they'd be disallowed in the hub? No no no. Use em all you want, just that they have no place in the revised rules ya'll are proposing. Find a way to word it that doesn't use confusing community only terms. 

 

Terms that are regularly used in trades are not to be mentioned in the rules?  That honestly makes no sense to me, especially when those exact terms are often used to ask for the "specific eggs" that are against the rules.

 

Isn't it better to directly say that players can't ask for those and link to explanations of the terms for any new players not familiar with them?  Since SAlt and Thuwed are frequently seen in trade, it seems that offering an explanation where it is easily accessed by players is a reasonable solution to the problem.  You said yourself that players frequently ask what these mean, so it seems that there's a need for easily accessible definitions.

 

I understand not wanting to confuse new players, but to me this is the opposite: we would be offering information that will make a large number of trades more understandable to new players.  Maybe they're asking because there's currently no information offered in the trade area where they see SAlt and Thuwed used.

Edited January 9 by laevsk
Grammatical mistakes :)

[Platykwak]

35 minutes ago, laevsk said:

Terms that are regularly used in trades are not to be mentioned in the rules?  That honestly makes no sense to me, especially when those exact terms are often used to ask for the "specific eggs" that are against the rules.

 

Isn't it better to directly say that players can't ask for those and link to explanations of the terms for any new players not familiar with them?  Since SAlt and Thuwed are frequently seen in trade, it seems that offering an explanation where it is easily accessed by players is a reasonable solution to the problem.  You said yourself that players frequently ask what these mean, so it seems that there's a need for easily accessible definitions.

 

I understand not wanting to confuse new players, but to me this is the opposite: we would be offering information that will make a large number of trades more understandable to new players.  Maybe they're asking because there's currently no information offered in the trade area where they see SAlt and Thuwed used.

 

I get that, but for the exact same reason I think that it'd be better to avoid them in the short list on trade page, and leave any terminology on the "Big Rulepage" as examples.

 

Quote

a specific dragon or code, or offspring of a specific dragon on the site (even your own)

^I find this to be a great umbrella wording - it could then be further elaborated from this groundwork laid out.

It would also avoid the influx of questions like "does this mean that I can't ever ask for any 2g SAlt/Thuwed?" (We saw that a similar misunderstanding happened right here in this thread just a moment ago.)

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, meeps114 said:

Okay, so...forum contact is 100% allowed, and discord contact is 100% not allowed? 

 

 

No - GROUPS are allowed. I don't think saying "DM on forum" is - is it ? @Kaini

 

As for "special terms" - surely those aren't needed in the RULES - lord knows there are loads of people who don't understand "even gen" or "Prize" - you CANNOT cover everything. If needed a link to such things in a help link.

 

I think laevsk has it right here.

 

1 hour ago, laevsk said:

Proposed rules, amended, with clarifications from mods still pending. I removed the line about links as it's impossible to link anyway.

 

Trading hub rules include, but are not limited by, the following:

- Describe what you want and/or what you're offering.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling. [Linked to definitions]

- Do not direct others off-site (w/one exception, the forum? Is "see group xxxxx" allowed as it's on-site?).

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's or offer something you don't currently own.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player. (To me this includes hate speech, but that can be added).

- Trades must be completed in one teleport - combining trades is not allowed.

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, including loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules]. (can change to "It's your responsibility to read the following information on rules: [link]" or something more direct like that).

 

 

 

[meeps114]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

No - GROUPS are allowed. I don't think saying "DM on forum" is - is it ? @Kaini

 

I mean, the quote from Kaini that I put in my comment says forum usernames are allowed. I'm going to assume that still holds since they did not clarify -- although it would nice if Kaini could put the issue to rest for once and for all. 

[Fuzzbucket]

5 minutes ago, meeps114 said:

I mean, the quote from Kaini that I put in my comment says forum usernames are allowed. I'm going to assume that still holds since they did not clarify -- although it would nice if Kaini could put the issue to rest for once and for all. 

 

OK - missed that,

[purpledragonclaw]

I'm not going to respond in full right now, due to being on lunch and having limited time, but I will say that saying you can be DMed on the forums and Discord, including referencing your username on both, is okay. And including an actual link is never going to be allowed, since links are not allowed in trade messages. Referencing your groups is also fine.

Edited January 23 by purpledragonclaw
removed inaccurate information on Discord

[Fuzzbucket]

Thanks, PDC.

So how do these proposed rules look to you as they stand ? When you have a minute  

 

 

Trading hub rules include, but are not limited by, the following:

- Describe what you want and/or what you're offering.

- Do not ask for a specific code, a specific 2g SAlt or 2g Thuwed, or an auto-abandoned egg/hatchling. [Linked to definitions ?]

- Do not direct others off-site. Mentioning forum names and group numbers are allowed, but nowhere else.

- Do not ask for or offer IOU's or offer something you don't currently own.

- Do not use offensive language or insult or harass another player. (To me this includes hate speech, but that can be added).

- Trades must be completed in one teleport - combining trades is not allowed.

Warning: Use of the trading hub against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, including loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules]. (can change to "It's your responsibility to read the following information on rules: [link]" or something more direct like that).

Edited January 9 by Fuzzbucket

[04uni]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Warning: Use of the trading forum against stated rules may result in disciplinary actions, including loss of ability to create public trades. For more information on trading rules, go to [link to expanded rules]. (can change to "It's your responsibility to read the following information on rules: [link]" or something more direct like that).

Change trading forum to trading hub to minimize confusion?

[laevsk]

With the words "SAlt" and "Thuwed" hyperlinked to definitions on the "Big Rulepage" (I like that 😁) there should be less confusion, not more.

 

Anyone who has been on the internet for any length of time should know that a word highlighted with a link means you click on the link for further information.  Young people who have grown up using a computer certainly know this and those of us long-timers are acquainted with it (I'm an old people, been on the internet since 1997).  So linking those words should alleviate confusion. 

 

I'm confused as to why avoiding these terms that are commonly and frequently used in trades is a problem in the rules.  Rules should be applicable to the situation, and the situation in question uses these terms.  I think if we leave these out even if they are put in the Big Rulepage we're missing an opportunity to provide further understanding of what's going on in trades.  And that brings up another point - if SAlts and Thuweds are mentioned in the Big Rulepage, why is it a problem to say them in the rules?

 

"Specific egg/hatchling" is already used in the brief trading explanation on the Help page, and going by the number of improper trades I've seen it's been ineffective so far.  Specifying particular infractions in the rules list makes it more clear and helps alleviate the problem areas (in my opinion).

[Fuzzbucket]

Good point - edited my post.

Edited January 9 by Fuzzbucket

[laevsk]

I have no idea why I put forum instead of hub - thanks for pointing that out! 😊

 

Do not direct others off-site. Mentioning DC forum name and/or group numbers are allowed.

 

Adding this is a good idea (and thank you, purpledragonclaw, for chiming in).  I'm wondering about saying "forum names" - I modified it slightly so it would clearly mean the DC forum and not some other forum (this came to mind because I ran a forum for over two years that included a section for DC talk).  Of course, I'm assuming "DC" is an acceptable term. 😁