ANSWERED:allow props on concepted Drake sprites/domesticated drakes

[Jazeki]

To me, adding an accessory is "dressing up" a sprite. You're putting in something with the dragon to make it more appealing. If an artist can fit in flowers or stars or what have you, more power to them. In the end, it's up to TJ to decide what is acceptable for DC. It's still really limiting to ask for a change to a single set of dragons to make them loveable, which implies that there is something inherently wrong with drakes beyond their limited breeding abilities. 

[Ruby Eyes]

27 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

Sorry but asking why am I suggesting this is like asking 'why should we add eastern dragons when we have westerns?'

Not at all. Adding Easterns does not change anything with the Westerns. But everything you suggest around Drakes starts with the premise that something is wrong with them. Which there isn't.

[Silverwatermist]

13 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Not at all. Adding Easterns does not change anything with the Westerns. But everything you suggest around Drakes starts with the premise that something is wrong with them. Which there isn't.

This is the main point to me, as well. Like I said earlier, I see how this suggestion feels creative and fun and is intended to make the Drakes "special", but I don't think Drakes having objects simply because they can be trained/domesticated makes sense when other dragons already collect and manipulate objects, too. Why would it or should it only apply to Drakes, then? And would this mean that each of the old sprites would also have to be retro-fitted for an object/item that their owners could choose to add to the sprite? Depending on the lore and the required object, that might include changes to the sprite's pose depending on what the Drake needs to be doing or holding, right? Some people already really like Drakes exactly as they are, so this item feature would cease to be purely optional if implementing it would require tweaking the already-existing sprites' poses.

It's also been mentioned in this thread that "Dragons holding items" might not be the direction this site wants to go in, since a couple of us seem to recall that being said in the past? This suggestion might not fit into DC's style for regular releases. To me, this suggestion sounds a bit more like a mini game for a Holiday event than a basic sprite mechanic, but if it was implemented, I wouldn't be mad as long as no changes were made to everyone's old sprites? I just also, personally, wouldn't find it fun or interesting, and I feel like if energy if being put towards adding lore and art to the existing Drakes, I'd prefer it to be funneled towards creating new Drakes instead.

 

 

[Ruby Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Silverwatermist said:

It's also been mentioned in this thread that "Dragons holding items" might not be the direction this site wants to go in, since a couple of us seem to recall that being said in the past?

It's in the Dragon Requests section sticky The Ultimate Dragon Requests Guide.

Quote

Characteristics to avoid in a sprite/sprite concept are:

[...]

• Dragons with props.

 

[Varasse]

The idea behind this is to get the Drakes more attention or "more love" as you call it. But who gets to decide that they don't get enough "love" right now? Is this assumption based on facts or is this just your personal opinion?

 

Regarding the domestication: "..  their biggest unique trait is being animalistic". And you want to warp that into something different by domesticating them. Like dogs or such? To me that does not make any sense for dragons.

 

And I would not collect more Drakes just because they hold something or get an additional detail.

 

Maybe you should take some of your ideas and use them for concepts for "regular" Drakes, putting some of your lore-related ideas into their descriptions.

 

[Carmelita-Fox]

Sounds like you might want to start in dragon requests. Personally I dislike drakes, but your lantern carrier looks like an absolutely adorable concept. If they get accepted or shot down by the higher ups, then you know. And if your ideas get released, people so adamantly against it don’t have to collect them. I have a Valentine breed I refuse to collect, for example. To each his own. 

[Murkydepths]

1 hour ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Not at all. Adding Easterns does not change anything with the Westerns. But everything you suggest around Drakes starts with the premise that something is wrong with them. Which there isn't.

 

The thing 'wrong' with drakes is they're very limited and are their own breeding group without having any traits unique to that breeding group. That's what I'm suggesting, a trait that is unique to drakes that affects the sprite. But I'm not saying drakes are wrong or suck, I'm saying they could be even better. And if you like drakes just as they are, them having the option to have items isn't going to take anything away. All it does add a bit of extra flavour to drakes and dc in general.

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And no, old sprites would not need updating, items would not be a requirement for drakes.

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This suggestion isn't supposed to be a poll of whether you like items or not, it's whether it should be an option. If absolutely nobody liked items, it being allowed wouldn't make a difference because nobody would make them. But, there are people who would like to add a little item in to emphasis a dragons concept. 

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Why should drakes get them but not all dragons? Because we have breeding groups, we already separate dragons for arbitrary reasons. It's a type of variety. I find it very odd that when I suggest we remove breeding groups to have more options, people like the restrictions, but when I suggest something to make the restricted groups even more unique and special, people don't want that either? Is the problem the items, or do people just resent any change to do with drakes? 

[Jazeki]

Ok, but adding items or changing the lore to allow for dragons to prefer doing specific tasks doesn't have anything to do with breeding. Also drakes do have a specific set of traits that limit them.I forget what they all are, but adding an item or emphasizing their lack of intelligence in comparison to other dragons does not necessarily make them any more appealing. Nor does it make DC more fun.

 

As I and others have suggested, it might be good for you to take your ideas to the dragon suggestions section and flesh them out there.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Jazeki
typo

[Ruby Eyes]

Mostly, I'd be worried about three things:

 

- that lineages would change just because someone adds an item to one of the individuals

- that TJ's programming energy is being expended for something that I, personally, don't see as a necessity, while other suggestions with lots of support would have to wait

- that I'd be bothered by items getting in my way - wherever they would appear (biome? market?)

[Jazeki]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Mostly, I'd be worried about three things:

 

- that lineages would change just because someone adds an item to one of the individuals

- that TJ's programming energy is being expended for something that I, personally, don't see as a necessity, while other suggestions with lots of support would have to wait

- that I'd be bothered by items getting in my way - wherever they would appear (biome? market?)

I think OP just wants future drake sprites to include items specific to their traits. Not that old drakes get anything. 

 

ETA: like their traveling dragon has lanterns and their fishing dragon has a fish on its tail.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Jazeki

[Shadowdrake]

1 minute ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Mostly, I'd be worried about three things:

 

- that lineages would change just because someone adds an item to one of the individuals

- that TJ's programming energy is being expended for something that I, personally, don't see as a necessity, while other suggestions with lots of support would have to wait

- that I'd be bothered by items getting in my way - wherever they would appear (biome? market?)

Murky has said *multiple times* that it's not customizable dress up. It's just lifting a Dragon Requests rule to give drakes more potential variety for future artists.

 

 

@Murkydepths you may want to rephrase your title to "allow props on concepted Drake sprites" so people stop getting the wrong idea.

[Ruby Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

Murky has said *multiple times* that it's not customizable dress up. It's just lifting a Dragon Requests rule to give drakes more potential variety for future artists.

Ah, I did not get that. I'm not a native English speaker ...

(So basically it boils down to "need more Drakes." I'm fine with that. Go sprite them, please!)

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ruby Eyes

[Silverwatermist]

2 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

 

The thing 'wrong' with drakes is they're very limited and are their own breeding group without having any traits unique to that breeding group. That's what I'm suggesting, a trait that is unique to drakes that affects the sprite.

 

Why should drakes get them but not all dragons? Because we have breeding groups, we already separate dragons for arbitrary reasons. It's a type of variety. I find it very odd that when I suggest we remove breeding groups to have more options, people like the restrictions, but when I suggest something to make the restricted groups even more unique and special, people don't want that either? Is the problem the items, or do people just resent any change to do with drakes? 

I'll repeat my personal opinion so I can expand on it: "I understand the idea behind this, trying to find something unique just for Drakes, but there are plenty of real-life animals that look quite similar and share physical features, yet they can't interbreed, so I don't really feel like Drakes need a unique physical element to set them apart" such as giving them an item. This type of breeding restriction happens in nature all the time, so it's never fazed or bothered me when interacting with, collecting, or breeding Drakes on this site. Similar-looking animals that cant interbreed are present all around us in the world, so upon seeing that trait reflected in Drakes, I went, "Oh, okay!" and have no issue with it whatsoever, nor do I find it arbitrary? I find the breeding restriction interesting, and find their similarities and differences with regular dragons interesting. It's fine if others don't, but it just means that in order for me to be all-in on a suggestion about changing or adding to Drakes, it not only has to work with DC's mechanics, but also has to fit with the Drake lore and be as non-disruptive to the current method as possible?

So, I appreciate that your suggestion is to add an option rather than an overhaul, I just don't think this particular option makes much sense for DC or for Drakes? I'm not disagreeing because I resent any changes to Drakes (if TJ had wanted to change the lore and lift the breeding restrictions, I would've accepted that because I'm not the one creating the lore and deciding what makes sense?) but instead, I'm disagreeing because 1) I don't think it fits well with DC's current mechanics and goals for releases, and 2) I can't see how this suggestion makes Drakes unique or special when other dragons, right in their descriptions, are said to hoard and use items too. I don't agree with your explanation on why Drakes should receive this item feature but other dragons should not, since I don't find the breeding restrictions between groups to be as arbitrary as you find them. Basically, I feel this suggestion is more random than the current restrictions like size, number of heads, or intelligence. I just don't see compelling reasons for artists and coders to put effort into this specific thing instead of simply making and releasing more Drakes? 😅 I still feel that's the real answer to what's "wrong" with Drakes.

[Murkydepths]

20 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

Murky has said *multiple times* that it's not customizable dress up. It's just lifting a Dragon Requests rule to give drakes more potential variety for future artists.

 

 

@Murkydepths you may want to rephrase your title to "allow props on concepted Drake sprites" so people stop getting the wrong idea.

 

Will do! Thank you.

[HeatherMarie]

Honestly, this really just seems like the OP personally doesn't like drakes and wants to do anything possible to make them more 'appealing' to themselves. Many people have already expressed they like drakes just the way they are. Many people *wouldn't* like drakes any more just because of an added little item, and honestly sometimes a random item takes away from the appeal of the sprite itself. Sprites are fairly small by definition, adding things that take attention away from the dragon itself isn't necessarily a good thing. 

 

Also, I agree the place you need to go is Dragon Requests regardless. This suggestion will go nowhere as-is, because you are suggestion that new breeds be made with certain things in mind. That's what Dragon Requests is for. If you have specific things you'd like to see in a new drake, that's where it belongs. I feel like this suggestion is kind of cart-before-horse, like yes okay it might be nice to see if TJ would even *consider* accepting drakes with props or whatever, but there still needs to actually be a *concept* made in Dragon Requests for it to actually go anywhere.

[Murkydepths]

14 minutes ago, Silverwatermist said:

So, I appreciate that your suggestion is to add an option rather than an overhaul, I just don't think this particular option makes much sense for DC or for Drakes? I'm not disagreeing because I resent any changes to Drakes (if TJ had wanted to change the lore and lift the breeding restrictions, I would've accepted that because I'm not the one creating the lore and deciding what makes sense?) but instead, I'm disagreeing because 1) I don't think it fits well with DC's current mechanics and goals for releases, and 2) I can't see how this suggestion makes Drakes unique or special when other dragons, right in their descriptions, are said to hoard and use items too. I don't agree with your explanation on why Drakes should receive this item feature but other dragons should not, since I don't find the breeding restrictions between groups to be as arbitrary as you find them. Basically, I feel this suggestion is more random than the current restrictions like size, number of heads, or intelligence. I just don't see compelling reasons for artists and coders to put effort into this specific thing instead of simply making and releasing more Drakes? 😅 I still feel that's the real answer to what's "wrong" with Drakes.

 

Props would be entirely optional, just only available for drakes.

 

I can understand if people are fine with drakes being separate just for lore reasons, but I thought it'd be nice if they also had some physical change unique to them available. The drakes biggest features are

 

- small (doesn't show up in sprite size, would have to re-do old sprites to emphasise this)

- Antlers (regular dragons can have antlers)

- leather full length wings (regular dragons can have this)

- no thumb (not...terribly exciting)

- animalistic and easily tamed <- this seemed like the biggest potential to me.

 

Domesticated animals have so much variety that doesn't appear in nature. And the item idea came from the relation to domestic animals to human items. 

 

This is just a suggestion, if Tj did not want to get rid of the item restriction for any dragons I would be ok - I'd probably design my drakes with big emphasis on their antlers since that's the second biggest unique trait imo.

 

 

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And I DO like drakes why do you think I want them to be better and have more options?

Edited February 18, 2021 by Murkydepths

[Guillotine]

As someone who like drakes quite a bit and has a few prototype breeds in the works, I would very strongly dislike adding unneeded clutter to the sprites. 100x100 is not a lot of space unless you're talking, like, the SNES or GBA (where 100x100 pixels is roughly 1/2-1/3 the default resolution...).

 

I don't see the point of this. It's an entirely arbitrary choice (especially considering that all other dragons are fully sapient, if not necessarily clever, and many have thumbs) and makes spriting for the site even harder. Like, I understand wanting drakes to have broader appeal so that more of them get released, but this will have the opposite effect.

[HeatherMarie]

18 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

As someone who like drakes quite a bit and has a few prototype breeds in the works, I would very strongly dislike adding unneeded clutter to the sprites. 100x100 is not a lot of space unless you're talking, like, the SNES or GBA (where 100x100 pixels is roughly 1/2-1/3 the default resolution...).

 

I don't see the point of this. It's an entirely arbitrary choice (especially considering that all other dragons are fully sapient, if not necessarily clever, and many have thumbs) and makes spriting for the site even harder. Like, I understand wanting drakes to have broader appeal so that more of them get released, but this will have the opposite effect.

 

(bolding for emphasis)

Yeah, again this is why I feel like this is just a push to make drakes 'better' (which is a completely subjective measure) without really making a lot of sense in-game. If drakes are closer to dogs, and dragons are closer to humans in terms of intelligence/personality/etc, I would think it would make *more* sense for regular dragons to have items. Regular dragons could have items like books or stuff to show off their intelligence or interests or whatever, I don't see the logic in only drakes having items when it would actually probably be regular dragons that would have more use for items. 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Sorry Murky, I don't know why some are being so extremely volatile and snarky over this.

 

I kind of like the idea myself. Domestic drakes seems a fairly logical extension of their role in game, and small props in this case don't seem out of place. I understand the prop policy as far as we don't want to see dragons running all over wearing ties and shoes and what not, but I still remember groaning as a couple neat concepts were rejected for small props (there was one dragon that wore its hoard wherever it went, mostly raw gems embedded in scales, a few necklaces and rings. Very cool. Rejected with a no props handwave). So yah, I have no objection to the idea of small domestic type items for drakes... or natural ones for other dragons, for that matter. If they're small and enhance the concept, go for it.

 

That being said, and as others have pointed out, drakes are mostly less popular because 1) not many of them and 2) limited creative parameters. A small prop allowance and domestication might spur some interest, but I doubt it'd be much. We're probably just going to persist with them mostly being a curious relic of original DC and not getting a ton of attention, and honestly, that's fine. There's hundreds of other things to play with, even if I do cry a little every time a really pretty drake is made only to be immediately and forever more unused by most of us.  

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, Jazeki said:

To me, adding an accessory is "dressing up" a sprite. You're putting in something with the dragon to make it more appealing. If an artist can fit in flowers or stars or what have you, more power to them. In the end, it's up to TJ to decide what is acceptable for DC. It's still really limiting to ask for a change to a single set of dragons to make them loveable, which implies that there is something inherently wrong with drakes beyond their limited breeding abilities. 

 

And there is nothing wrong with them as they stand.

 

1 hour ago, Guillotine said:

As someone who like drakes quite a bit and has a few prototype breeds in the works, I would very strongly dislike adding unneeded clutter to the sprites. 100x100 is not a lot of space unless you're talking, like, the SNES or GBA (where 100x100 pixels is roughly 1/2-1/3 the default resolution...).

 

Very much this. I doubt if I would feel like adding creatures with props to my many drake lines.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Honestly, this really just seems like the OP personally doesn't like drakes and wants to do anything possible to make them more 'appealing' to themselves. Many people have already expressed they like drakes just the way they are. Many people *wouldn't* like drakes any more just because of an added little item, and honestly sometimes a random item takes away from the appeal of the sprite itself. Sprites are fairly small by definition, adding things that take attention away from the dragon itself isn't necessarily a good thing. 

 

Also, I agree the place you need to go is Dragon Requests regardless. This suggestion will go nowhere as-is, because you are suggestion that new breeds be made with certain things in mind. That's what Dragon Requests is for. If you have specific things you'd like to see in a new drake, that's where it belongs. I feel like this suggestion is kind of cart-before-horse, like yes okay it might be nice to see if TJ would even *consider* accepting drakes with props or whatever, but there still needs to actually be a *concept* made in Dragon Requests for it to actually go anywhere.

 

That's rather the way it feels to me, too. But yes - requests is the place to go,. If you create one that will fly - good luck to you.

 

51 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Sorry Murky, I don't know why some are being so extremely volatile and snarky over this.

 

Volatile - sure; I love my drakes,. But snarky - that's not very NICE of you, ADP.

 

51 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

That being said, and as others have pointed out, drakes are mostly less popular because 1) not many of them and 2) limited creative parameters. A small prop allowance and domestication might spur some interest, but I doubt it'd be much. We're probably just going to persist with them mostly being a curious relic of original DC and not getting a ton of attention, and honestly, that's fine. There's hundreds of other things to play with, even if I do cry a little every time a really pretty drake is made only to be immediately and forever more unused by most of us.  

 

Use them, ADP. They thrive on it  

[Murkydepths]

 

59 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Sorry Murky, I don't know why some are being so extremely volatile and snarky over this.

 

I kind of like the idea myself. Domestic drakes seems a fairly logical extension of their role in game, and small props in this case don't seem out of place. I understand the prop policy as far as we don't want to see dragons running all over wearing ties and shoes and what not, but I still remember groaning as a couple neat concepts were rejected for small props (there was one dragon that wore its hoard wherever it went, mostly raw gems embedded in scales, a few necklaces and rings. Very cool. Rejected with a no props handwave). So yah, I have no objection to the idea of small domestic type items for drakes... or natural ones for other dragons, for that matter. If they're small and enhance the concept, go for it.

 

That being said, and as others have pointed out, drakes are mostly less popular because 1) not many of them and 2) limited creative parameters. A small prop allowance and domestication might spur some interest, but I doubt it'd be much. We're probably just going to persist with them mostly being a curious relic of original DC and not getting a ton of attention, and honestly, that's fine. There's hundreds of other things to play with, even if I do cry a little every time a really pretty drake is made only to be immediately and forever more unused by most of us.  

 

Thank you for providing some good points. I do not think adding props would make a huge increase in their popularity, but it'd open up a new avenue for spriters. Suddenly, you are allowed small items in the sprite, that produces tons of concepts. That dragon wearing it's hoard sounds really cool! 

 

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And once again, I'd like to state that items would not become a requirement for drakes and whether you personally like items or not is not the discussion. Nobody needs to add items to their concepts, it's an option. 

 

And yeah only drakes having items is arbitrary, just like them being a breeding group is arbitrary. It's a game mechanic, not a huge addition to lore. There are regular dragons with objects, but if that rule were to be lifted I think it'd be most advantageous for just drakes - for one, by limiting items so the people who do dislike them don't feel overwhelmed, and by giving drakes a little uniqueness. 

[pinkgothic]

I also initially misread this as being a kind of dress-up thing, but thankfully the conversation here has disabused me of that misconception. I like the idea of lifting the spriting rules for Drakes so they can have props, specifically with the lore idea supporting that they'd be used as beasts of burden in some fashion.

[Dohaerys]

While I absolutely love the idea of domesticated drakes doing specific tasks in human settlements, I feel like having manmade or natural props in the sprites simply doesn't fit into DC's style of art per se, as props could ruin the immersion and the current vague ambiguity of exactly what technological/ environmental level Galsreim is at. This is my main objection to this concept, as well as the fact that dragon sprites are the same for all individuals. If w have a sprite of a drake holding a fish, it would seem as though every single individual of this species holds the exact same fish, which could seem really odd. Other games with props avoid this problem by having individualized dragons. 

What I would suggest however, (and maybe even love to see in DR), are drake concepts sort of like dog breeds that have physical adaptations to a certain task, that could be sort of like xenos in that they all originate from some common breed. This could make drakes more "interesting" per se, without necessarily breaking DC's current norms of art styles.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Dohaerys

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think the focus on props, while the most visceral and visual, is really subset of "can we make domestic drakes?" Which is something no other group has been able to do, but this group is perfect for.

 

@HeatherMarie having seen thoughtful, beautiful, even nearly fully sprited concepts thrashed because TJ came in at the end and said something seems like a prop, I don't think asking if props would be allowed on a domestic type drake is putting the cart before the horse here. Why waste time and creativity coming up with a great concept if current evidence says it won't fly? Better to get blessings first. I realize a domestic dragon doesn't need a prop, but making something that has it as a main point and then stripping it away kind of loses the allure. Talking again about the hoard wearing dragons, they tried doing the same there and it just killed the soul of the idea and into the dustbin they went.

 

@Fuzzbucket I said some people and didn't refer to anyone by name. If you believe you aren't one of them, no need to take note of it.  And I can't work with anything that can't breed Sunsong babies for my hoard! That's all other dragons are, tools for creating my glittery army, muahahah.

 

@Dohaerys while I get what you're saying, and prop mileage will certainly vary, for me immersion is already broken on countless dragons by the reality that all sprites look the same. All nebulas have different constellations! Excepttt they don't, here, for obvious reasons. Yes, something like a lantern or saddle might certainly be a more noticeable version of that, but the precedent has been set. It's the reality of games. ;;

 

Now that I think about it the only real example I can think of a game escaping this is Pokemon and their Spindas, haha. Well played Pokemon, well played.

Edited February 18, 2021 by angelicdragonpuppy

[High Lord November]

You can definitely make certain species of drake with domestication in the lore. I have a DR request pending for a drake based off of budgies - there are natural wild variants, but they've also been domesticated. You can breed them to get different colour mutations, and they make good pets - which I'm hoping is an acceptable mechanic, just because drakes are a bit more limited in their breeding pool.

 

Lots of people seem to be harping on drakes because they aren't much different than regular dragons, and I disagree. Marsupials and mammals are totally different and can't interbreed, despite looking similar, and I think we're better off with the variety.  They honestly seem a lot more like velociraptors or other dinosaurs than the standard, human-intelligence+ dragons. Go ahead and make a DR request to add more drakes.

 

You could also always have a natural feature of the drake be bred for. Instead of man-made lanterns hanging from their antlers, maybe they have glowing globes that were selectively bred to make them larger. Unless TJ makes the distinction that props can be on certain sprites.

Edited February 18, 2021 by High Lord November