Dragon body types clean-up and clarifications

[DragonLady86]

14 hours ago, Shokomon said:

 

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Zyumorphs make no sense. Xenowyrms are considered all different breeds, despite being inter-related dragons, all with the same body type and capability of producing other xenowyrms. (ie Breeding an Astrapi can net you a Pharos if the conditions are right.) 

 

But Zyumorphs, despite all of them having radically different body structures, AND incapable of breeding other Zyumorphs (You can't get a red Zyumorph from a black Zyumorph or vice versa), are considered one breed. The ONLY thing that connects them other than their similar coloration patterns is that they summon the Sinomorph. That's like saying the Legendary Trio (Magma, Ice, Thunder) are all the same breed because they summon the GoN. Guess what? THEY AREN'T.

 

I'm not over this, and I never will be. I think it's stupid. 

For the record, I hundred percent I agree, but that's the way TJ has it and thus far he hasn't been willing to change it. But yes, I majored in Zoology so you dont need to tell me Zues and Xenos are backwards as to what a "breed" is. /sigh /what can you do? 

[olympe]

15 minutes ago, DragonLady86 said:

For the record, I hundred percent I agree, but that's the way TJ has it and thus far he hasn't been willing to change it. But yes, I majored in Zoology so you dont need to tell me Zues and Xenos are backwards as to what a "breed" is. /sigh /what can you do? 

That's exactly why I didn't want to open that particular can of Zyus. I agree they're "done wrong", but I also know the "word of TJ" on the matter.

 

8 hours ago, Shokomon said:

So what would you label these guys, since they share traits with both Western and Eastern dragons? Eastern-Western hybrids? Pseudo-Easterns? Pseudo-Westerns? 

Probably Weasterns, which you can freely interpret as either "Winged EASTERN" or as "WEstern x EASTERN hybrid." Unless someone comes up with a better name. (After all, my idea about cardinal directions has already been shot down.)

 

9 hours ago, Shokomon said:

Hmm. I feel like I would still put Aqualises and Sapos with Easterns and Tercorns with Westerns, but the rest could make a group of aquatic drakes. 

Drakes??? Not DC drakes, though.  

 

9 hours ago, Shokomon said:

hhh maybe? Based on the dragons you've picked at least. They could be like Hadrosaurids who can walk on all fours or upright depending on the situation. Though, as for which dragons qualify, I would re-examine this list because some of them look like a dog standing on its hind legs, which would mean that they are definitely quadrupedal, but are just posed that way. 

It's funny, because the two dragons I would consider upright dragons aren't on here:  

- Diamondwings (especially considering the S1 stage and the art drawn for them in the wiki): 

- Red Zyumorph (see my rant on Zyumorphs on why they should be separated by body types): 

Well, I guess I sure missed the Diamondwing, and about Zyus - see above.  

 

I know that some of the poses from that group are a lot like a dog/cat sitting on their haunches or even standing on those - but I really, really tried to compare the length of forelegs and hind legs, and for all the breeds I chose, the hind legs are more than 1.5 times as long as the front legs. I tried to shoot for 2 times as long, but due to my issues with perspective, I'm not sure all of them qualify for that.  

And, yes, Hadrosaurids. I forgot the name of the dinos, and was too lazy to look it up. And especially the blue-banded looks like its body type is heavily based on them. Tangar, too.

 

9 hours ago, Shokomon said:

I agree with this, but would splitting the body types by wing type be worth it? 

I'm not sure it is, to be honest. But if it's going to happen, I think the least we should have is the (anatomically very different) ridgewing type. (Not to mention that that particlar wing type doesn't look flightworthy to me. Birds, bats and even pterosaurs need(ed) to be able to fold their wings for moving them upward, or they'd lose the height they gained from beating them downwards. Or, at the very least, be able to turn them in a way that they go upward edge-first. With the Ridgewing anatomy, neither is possible. However, using them for sailing is very much possible. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(genus) for reference. And, since it's not in the English article, here's a pic of what their skeleton looks like: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugdrachen#/media/Datei:Flying_Dragon_Mivart.png)

What I was going for was multi-fingered, one-fingered and ridgewing, since they have differing bone structures. And, yes, some wings fit in neither category. I'd name the Geode as one of them, since there's no rhyme nor reason for its structure, but also Yulebuck and Paper, althuogh the latter may be considered "multi-fingered" if you squint.

  

 

9 hours ago, Shokomon said:

And, does that mean we should separate the dragons by scales/fur/feathers? I mean we have some dragons that are fully feathered, partially feathered, partially furred, almost fully furred (Pillows), Scaled, and Skin only. 

I don't think so. While that is an interesting feature to have or not have, I don't think I want it in there. Besides, it doesn't really change the underlying anatomy and wouldn't have an effect on zombies anyway. (And who is to tell us that the Yulebuck isn't completely covered in short fur, just to name one example? Not all fur is easily distinguishable from afar.

[Shokomon]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

That's exactly why I didn't want to open that particular can of Zyus. I agree they're "done wrong", but I also know the "word of TJ" on the matter.

 

Probably Weasterns, which you can freely interpret as either "Winged EASTERN" or as "WEstern x EASTERN hybrid." Unless someone comes up with a better name. (After all, my idea about cardinal directions has already been shot down.)

 

Drakes??? Not DC drakes, though.  

Lol no. I meant drakes as in Wingless Westerns, but you knew that lol. 

 

4 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, I guess I sure missed the Diamondwing, and about Zyus - see above.  

 

I know that some of the poses from that group are a lot like a dog/cat sitting on their haunches or even standing on those - but I really, really tried to compare the length of forelegs and hind legs, and for all the breeds I chose, the hind legs are more than 1.5 times as long as the front legs. I tried to shoot for 2 times as long, but due to my issues with perspective, I'm not sure all of them qualify for that.  

And, yes, Hadrosaurids. I forgot the name of the dinos, and was too lazy to look it up. And especially the blue-banded looks like its body type is heavily based on them. Tangar, too.

 

I'm not sure it is, to be honest. But if it's going to happen, I think the least we should have is the (anatomically very different) ridgewing type. (Not to mention that that particlar wing type doesn't look flightworthy to me. Birds, bats and even pterosaurs need(ed) to be able to fold their wings for moving them upward, or they'd lose the height they gained from beating them downwards. Or, at the very least, be able to turn them in a way that they go upward edge-first. With the Ridgewing anatomy, neither is possible. However, using them for sailing is very much possible. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(genus) for reference. And, since it's not in the English article, here's a pic of what their skeleton looks like: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugdrachen#/media/Datei:Flying_Dragon_Mivart.png)

What I was going for was multi-fingered, one-fingered and ridgewing, since they have differing bone structures. And, yes, some wings fit in neither category. I'd name the Geode as one of them, since there's no rhyme nor reason for its structure, but also Yulebuck and Paper, althuogh the latter may be considered "multi-fingered" if you squint.

  

I guess those fall under "wing-like structures, unspecified." Like they function as wings, but aren't true wings or Ridgewing type sail wings. 

 

I don't think Geodes actually can fly. I think the wings are for show. I had put it in the single wing finger structure because it seemed like it mimicked that kind of wing, similar to paper and multi wing finger. There a difference between bird wings and pterosaur wings though. Birds wing finger are technically multiple fused wrist bones and fingers, while Pterosaurs have a true single-fingered wing. That's why I had them separate. 

 

Maybe Ridgewings fly like planes? Once they are in the air, they use magic or other propulsion systems to help them fly. That or they just glide everywhere. 

 

4 hours ago, olympe said:

 

I don't think so. While that is an interesting feature to have or not have, I don't think I want it in there. Besides, it doesn't really change the underlying anatomy and wouldn't have an effect on zombies anyway. (And who is to tell us that the Yulebuck isn't completely covered in short fur, just to name one example? Not all fur is easily distinguishable from afar.

Fur, scale, and feather presence is a part of the anatomy though. Mammals are differentiated by mammary glands and hair/fur presence. The presence of feathers and wings are differentiating factors for birds. And, scales are a prominent feature in reptile.

Yea, I had thought about that [the short fur] but, I also wasn't willing to go through all the encyclopedia to find out. 

Probably too much either way.

[olympe]

35 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

I don't think Geodes actually can fly. I think the wings are for show. I had put it in the single wing finger structure because it seemed like it mimicked that kind of wing, similar to paper and multi wing finger. There a difference between bird wings and pterosaur wings though. Birds wing finger are technically multiple fused wrist bones and fingers, while Pterosaurs have a true single-fingered wing. That's why I had them separate.

While that is undoubtedly true, I figured that the differences are quite easy to hide on a common zombie sprite.  

 

36 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

Fur, scale, and feather presence is a part of the anatomy though. Mammals are differentiated by mammary glands and hair/fur presence. The presence of feathers and wings are differentiating factors for birds. And, scales are a prominent feature in reptile.

Yea, I had thought about that [the short fur] but, I also wasn't willing to go through all the encyclopedia to find out. 

Probably too much either way.

Yes and no.

There were feathered reptiles, as many dinosaur species have been proven to have some kind of feather covering, from "dino fuzz" to true primaries/secondaries /whatnot on the arms. And if you look at birds' feet, you'll see... scales. Sometimes quite prominently. Some mammals are (as good as) hairless - whales, rhinos, hippos, naked mole-rat... You get the idea. (And, yes, the earliest hints of fur in animals was in therapsids - "pre-mammals", so to speak. Not quite reptiles any more, not quite mammals yet.

[Shokomon]

On 7/11/2020 at 1:53 PM, olympe said:

While that is undoubtedly true, I figured that the differences are quite easy to hide on a common zombie sprite.  

 

Yes and no.

There were feathered reptiles, as many dinosaur species have been proven to have some kind of feather covering, from "dino fuzz" to true primaries/secondaries /whatnot on the arms. And if you look at birds' feet, you'll see... scales. Sometimes quite prominently. Some mammals are (as good as) hairless - whales, rhinos, hippos, naked mole-rat... You get the idea. (And, yes, the earliest hints of fur in animals was in therapsids - "pre-mammals", so to speak. Not quite reptiles any more, not quite mammals yet.

That's why I listed multiple things because overlap exist. They are (were) feathered reptiles, but all birds have feathers (of some sort) and wings. All mammals have mammary glands and some amount of hair (even if it's next to nothing; it's still there.) Reptiles are honestly the weird ones because the group is so expansive, which is why I said scales were a prominent feature (as opposed to catch all, though I can't think of any scale-less reptiles...)

 

Still, for dragons, it would be too much, I think. 

 

On a different note, are Sapos consider Leviathans because of their S1 stage?   >  > 

- There the only dragons I can think of at the top of my head that grow hind limbs.

- Most dragons go from wingless to winged.

- Actually, I think Sapos are the only "Leivathans" that grow additional limbs.

- Most seem to just get bigger...

- Technically the S1 is a lindwyrm... So, it's going from Lindwyrm shape to Eastern shape?

- ???

 

Also, do Sungsongs have feathers? Because I knew that Risensongs and Setsongs have feathers, but I never registered Sunsongs as having feathers. Sunrise/Sunset dragons definitely don't have feathers. Adult Sunsongs don't look feathered to me, but they do a bubbly pattern on their wings? Down? 

Spoiler

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And would Avatars be consider bipedal (looking at their hatchlings)? Would GoN for that matter?

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Okay, moving back to topic, so

Additional groups or No additional groups?

I'm fine either way really.

The leviathan sub group just needs to be clarified because as of right now it really doesn't make sense...

[Nerei]

Bipedal/quadrupedal westerns are similar enough that I don’t think they warrant any special type of subclassification. Feathers versus scales also seems to be splitting hairs compared to the more blatant classification disparities. I’m just keeping an eye out for the promised encyclopedia pages regarding morphology types!

[olympe]

19 hours ago, Niyaka said:

Bipedal/quadrupedal westerns are similar enough that I don’t think they warrant any special type of subclassification. Feathers versus scales also seems to be splitting hairs compared to the more blatant classification disparities. I’m just keeping an eye out for the promised encyclopedia pages regarding morphology types!

Well, the proportion of the limbs is very different in bipedal vs. quadrupedal, as are typical poses. And while I agree that the existence of feathers vs. scales isn't that much of a thing - especially not in zombie sprites - the difference between multi-fingered wings and one-fingered wings just might be.

 

Personally, though, I think that if different wing types (or existence of extra wings) get implemented in zombies, they should be mere add-ons to existing sprites. Like a wing edit for the sprites in question. Not necessarily a completely new sprite. But, well, that would be up to the artists.

20 hours ago, Shokomon said:

That's why I listed multiple things because overlap exist. They are (were) feathered reptiles, but all birds have feathers (of some sort) and wings. All mammals have mammary glands and some amount of hair (even if it's next to nothing; it's still there.) Reptiles are honestly the weird ones because the group is so expansive, which is why I said scales were a prominent feature (as opposed to catch all, though I can't think of any scale-less reptiles...)

Not all birds have wings, though. Moas (genus Dinornis) didn't have any. (Okay, so they went extinct within the last couple of thousand years...) And various groups of reptiles have brought forth individuals with no scales - be it snakes, geckos or whatnot. Just google "scaleless reptile".)

 

Regarding Sunsongs and feathers - the bubbly pattern you mentioned is probably feather. But, like their hybrid offspring, Sunsongs have only partially feathered wings.

[DragonLady86]

I mean, zombies are rotting corpses going from 4 wings to 2 or even 2 to 0 like male terraes isnt that much of a stretch. The missing ones just got too rotten and fell off. I dont really feel making extra sprites for such small groups is necessary. At least not unless we get a lot more of them.

[olympe]

And... how do you explain away wing fingers getting added in the zombie sprites?  

[DragonLady86]

The person that drew the scroll pic is bad with anatomy? Lol we have Griffins in mythology because of Triceratops. The head frill is often busted and people thought the pieces were wing bones! 

 

Honestly, such a small, nitpicky detail I couldn't say I've ever counted wing fingers on any of the sprites.

[olympe]

In some cases, it's quite obvious. Just to compare some of the most diverse wing types we have on DC for regular dragons (non-drakes):

• No wing finger, not even a real wing arm, just struts: 
• One wing finger: 
  • One wing finger, one elbow strut: 
  • One wing finger, four... butt struts? Oh, wait, this is "wingless"... 
• Two wing fingers: 
• Three wing fingers: 
  • Three wing fingers (one shortened) and a thumb: 
  • Three wing fingers, thumb and... a noodly appendage? 
  • Three wing fingers, three elbow struts and three butt struts? 
• Four wing wingers (and a thumb):  
  • Four wing fingers and two elbow struts: 
• Five wing fingers (some shortened): 
  • Five wing fingers and two elbow struts: 
• Weirdest wing ever - full of struts, unknown number of fingers: 
• Wings with no discernible anatomy:  
• Wings for walking: 

And I didn't even try to make sense of all feathered wings.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by olympe

[Nerei]

There’s such variety of wing types that it doesn’t seem worth it to address or classify  them differently, especially in the case of zombies. It’s one of the small things I’m willing to overlook in that department, just because strict classification can restrict diversity (or be unreasonable to expect zombie representation for). 

[Fuzzbucket]

37 minutes ago, Niyaka said:

There’s such variety of wing types that it doesn’t seem worth it to address or classify  them differently, especially in the case of zombies. It’s one of the small things I’m willing to overlook in that department, just because strict classification can restrict diversity (or be unreasonable to expect zombie representation for). 

 

Thank you ! My brain is honestly starting to hurt here !

[pinkgothic]

21 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

The person that drew the scroll pic is bad with anatomy? Lol we have Griffins in mythology because of Triceratops. The head frill is often busted and people thought the pieces were wing bones! 

Just a small heads-up, the usual theory is actually that it's Protoceratops (no horns). That said, as much as I too would prefer it to be true, some smart people have lodged strong objections to that Protoceratops skeletons had anything to do with how griffins were dreamed up. 🤗

 

I realise this has received some pushback, but I actually really like the idea of giving Terrae the body type "Dragas" and altering their zombie sprite logic accordingly. I'm not that interested in other new classifications, though, but I wouldn't fight it, either. And as long as this reclassifying doesn't end in more breeding groups, I don't mind some breeds being swapped around (although I'm not a zombie sprite collector and given that's a primary tied-in effect of body types, my opinion should be weighed less than someone who does collect those sprites).

 

It's great to hear the body types are going to be described in the encyclopaedia at some point, though! Looking forward to that.

[Keileon]

I don't like the idea of throwing in a new random morphology just to make sense of Terrae; it overcomplicates things. It's not so unbelievable that the male's wings fall off when he becomes a zombie.

 

As for the whole wing structure thing... I don't see why it has to be such a big deal? There's definitely more than four Nebula colors and patterns and we don't have a million sprites for them. Chalk it up to KISS; there's no need to account for every dragon that has an extra toe or something, I feel.

[HeatherMarie]

On 7/27/2020 at 10:09 AM, Niyaka said:

There’s such variety of wing types that it doesn’t seem worth it to address or classify  them differently, especially in the case of zombies. It’s one of the small things I’m willing to overlook in that department, just because strict classification can restrict diversity (or be unreasonable to expect zombie representation for). 

 

On 7/27/2020 at 1:25 PM, Keileon said:

 

As for the whole wing structure thing... I don't see why it has to be such a big deal? There's definitely more than four Nebula colors and patterns and we don't have a million sprites for them. Chalk it up to KISS; there's no need to account for every dragon that has an extra toe or something, I feel.

 

This this this. Imo there are already plenty of different body-types on DC and *most* breeds more-or-less fit into their assigned type. Westerns have 4 legs and wings, I really don't see the need to have tons of tiny sub-types for tons of different *types* of wings. I'd love to see a broad body-type definition on-site, like the OP shows, but I see no reason to get so nit-picky about it all.

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

 

This this this. Imo there are already plenty of different body-types on DC and *most* breeds more-or-less fit into their assigned type. Westerns have 4 legs and wings, I really don't see the need to have tons of tiny sub-types for tons of different *types* of wings. I'd love to see a broad body-type definition on-site, like the OP shows, but I see no reason to get so nit-picky about it all.

 

This side of it was what was making my brain hurt. Why do we NEED that level of detail - what would we use it for ? And whatever - existing zombies MUST not change their form

[Naruhina_94]

Spoiler

	Regular Dragons	Two Heads	Pigmy	Drakes
Eastern	Amerald Aqualis Blue Zyumorph Bolt Cloudplume Gemshard Hearstealing Labradorite Lihnseyre Melismor Sapo Shimmer-scale Silver Striped River Venturis	Blancblack	Kyanite	Day Glory Glaucus Greater Spotted Howler Morphodrake Night Glory Orchedrake Tarantula Hawk Tatterdrake Vremya Day Glory Glaucus Greater Spotted Honey Drake Howler Drake Morphodrake Night Glory Orchedrake Pseudodrake Tarantula Hawk Tatterdrake Vremya
Wyvern	Aeon Aether Alcedine Bright Breasted Carmine Coastal Copper Falconiform Fever Flamingo Floret Galvanic Golden Hellfire Koharki Luminox Nebula Nhiostrife Pink Zyumorph Razorcrest Sakuhana Scimitar-wing Seragamma Spinel Spirit Ward TriHorn Tsunami		Coral Magelight Mimic
Lindwurms	Blusang Elux Lucis Erador Paper Red-finned Tidal Risensong Script Setsong Yellow Zyumorph	Two Headed Lindwyrm	Kovos Seawyrm
Wyrms	Aquilo Aso Astrapi Chrono Gaia Ke’maro Mageia Pharos Obidar Omen Pyro Rift Staterae Thalassa Umbra		Red Tailed
SeaSerpent	Deep Sea Stratos Water	Baikala
Wingless	Aegis Aranoa Ash Black Zyumorph Dark Green Dorsal Fell Leodon Magma Mint Shallowater Sweetling Terrae Water waker Waterhorse Xol
Amphitere	Aeria Gloris Garland Lacula Skywing Stratos Sunsong Two finned Bluna Wintertide White Zyumorph
Western	Albino Amalthean Antarean Ballon Black Capped Teimarr Black Black Marrow Black Tea Black Truffle Blacktip Bleeding Moon Blue Banded Boreal Brimstone Brute Caligene Canopy Cassare Cavern Lurker Celestial Cheese Crystalline Dark Lumina Daydream Desipis Diamondwing Electric Ember Fire Gem Floral Crowned Freckled Frilled Frostbite Geode Gold Gold-horned Grave Green Guardian GoN Harvest Heartseeker Hellhorse Holly Horse Ice Imperial Fleshcrowne Khusa Kingcrowne Lumina Lunar Herald Magi Mistletoe Monarch Moonstone Mutamore Neglected Neotropical Nocturne Olive Pillow Pink Plated Colossum Purple Pyralspite Pyrovar Radiant Angel Red Ribbon Dancer Ridgewing Rosebud Royal Blue Royal Crimson Sandwaste Sapphire Seasonal x 4 Shadow Walker Sinii Krai Sinomorph Siyat Skysilk Snow Angel Solstice Soulpeace Soulstone Speckle Throated Spitifire Spotted Starsinger Stone Storm Storm Rider Striped Sunrise Sunset Sunstone Swallowtail Tetra Tinsel Turpentine Ultraviolet Undine Valentine Vampire Whiptail White Winter Magi Witchlight Wrapping-wing Yallow-Crowned Yulebuck Red Zyumorph	Duotone Geminae Gilded Bloodscale Hooktalon Jester Nexus Split	Avea Glowback Mariner Pargulus

I hope this list can be exhaustive. I divided them into the major categories that we need to care about since they influence breeding (regular, two heads, Pigmies and drakes) and for each subtype listed the ones as showed in encyclopedia. There may be some changes based on how I perceive the specific breed. 

I would love if things were more balanced in terms of subtypes presence in game. We only have 3 TRUE Sea serpent with long serpentine body equipped esclusively with finns. And Stratos don't even live into the sea even if their body type is the one of a sea serpent. I'm not saying there should be the same number of breeds for each subtypes, but surely it could be more balanced.

We could also just remove "sea serpent" as category and call them "aquatic breeds" that don't have a specific zombie sprite but just follow the one closer to them (for example eastern zombie sprite for sapo)

Edited July 29, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[Shadowdrake]

Or "sea serpent" could be renamed to "leviathan" to match up with other words being taken from outside lore without being from the sea.

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Naruhina_94 said:

I would love if things were more balanced in terms of subtypes presence in game. We only have 3 TRUE Sea serpent with long serpentine body equipped esclusively with finns. And Stratos don't even live into the sea even if their body type is the one of a sea serpent.

See? That's why I suggested discerning between true sea serpents and other breeds adapted to life in an aquatic setting. (I called them "natare" preemptively because it means "to swim" in Latin.) Very good candidates are Aqualis, Aranoa, Shallow Water, Tercorn and Xol. Maybe also the Water Walker.

 

1 hour ago, Naruhina_94 said:

I'm not saying there should be the same number of breeds for each subtypes, but surely it could be more balanced.

This is actually a big part of the reason why I'm very much for splitting some breeds from the general Western group: Draga (as intended by their creator), (partially) bipedal Western (due to visibly different anatomy and possible poses from truly quadrupedal Westerns) and dragons with Western/Eastern features mixed - "Weasterns" for lack of a better word.

[Shokomon]

1 hour ago, Naruhina_94 said:

  Hide contents

	Regular Dragons	Two Heads	Pigmy	Drakes
Eastern	Amerald Aqualis Blue Zyumorph Bolt Cloudplume Gemshard Hearstealing Labradorite Lihnseyre Melismor Sapo Shimmer-scale Silver Striped River Venturis	Blancblack	Kyanite	Day Glory Glaucus Greater Spotted Howler Morphodrake Night Glory Orchedrake Pseudo-Wyvern Tarantula Hawk Tatterdrake Vremya
Wyvern	Aeon Aether Alcedine Bright Breasted Carmine Coastal Copper Falconiform Fever Flamingo Floret Galvanic Golden Hellfire Koharki Luminox Nebula Nhiostrife Pink Zyumorph Razorcrest Sakuhana Scimitar-wing Seragamma Spinel Spirit Ward TriHorn Tsunami		Coral Magelight Mimic
Lindwurms	Blusang Elux Lucis Erador Paper Red-finned Tidal Risensong Script Setsong Yellow Zyumorph	Two Headed Lindwyrm	Kovos Seawyrm
Wyrms	Aquilo Aso Astrapi Chrono Gaia Ke’maro Mageia Pharos Obidar Omen Pyro Rift Staterae Thalassa Umbra		Red Tailed
SeaSerpent	Deep Sea Stratos Water	Baikala
Wingless	Aegis Aranoa Ash Black Zyumorph Dark Green Dorsal Fell Leodon Magma Mint Shallowater Sweetling Terrae Water waker Waterhorse Xol
Amphitere	Aeria Gloris Garland Lacula Skywing Stratos Sunsong Two finned Bluna Wintertide White Zyumorph
Western	Albino Amalthean Antarean Ballon Black Capped Teimarr Black Black Marrow Black Tea Black Truffle Blacktip Bleeding Moon Blue Banded Boreal Brimstone Brute Caligene Canopy Cassare Cavern Lurker Celestial Cheese Crystalline Dark Lumina Daydream Desipis Diamondwing Electric Ember Fire Gem Floral Crowned Freckled Frilled Frostbite Geode Gold Gold-horned Grave Green Guardian GoN Harvest Heartseeker Hellhorse Holly Horse Ice Imperial Fleshcrowne Khusa Kingcrowne Lumina Lunar Herald Magi Mistletoe Monarch Moonstone Mutamore Neglected Neotropical Nocturne Olive Pillow Pink Plated Colossum Purple Pyralspite Pyrovar Radiant Angel Red Ribbon Dancer Ridgewing Rosebud Royal Blue Royal Crimson Sandwaste Sapphire Seasonal x 4 Shadow Walker Sinii Krai Sinomorph Siyat Skysilk Snow Angel Solstice Soulpeace Soulstone Speckle Throated Spitifire Spotted Starsinger Stone Storm Storm Rider Striped Sunrise Sunset Sunstone Swallowtail Tetra Tinsel Turpentine Ultraviolet Undine Valentine Vampire Whiptail White Winter Magi Witchlight Wrapping-wing Yallow-Crowned Yulebuck Red Zyumorph	Duotone Geminae Gilded Bloodscale Hooktalon Jester Nexus Split	Avea Glowback Mariner Pargulus

I hope this list can be exhaustive. I divided them into the major categories that we need to care about since they influence breeding (regular, two heads, Pigmies and drakes) and for each subtype listed the ones as showed in encyclopedia. There may be some changes based on how I perceive the specific breed. 

This must have taken forever to do, and I'm far too tired to go through and see if I agree with all of them or not.

*Adds Pseudo-Wyverns because Yes*

 

1 hour ago, Naruhina_94 said:

I would love if things were more balanced in terms of subtypes presence in game. We only have 3 TRUE Sea serpent with long serpentine body equipped exclusively with finns. And Stratos don't even live into the sea even if their body type is the one of a sea serpent. I'm not saying there should be the same number of breeds for each subtypes, but surely it could be more balanced.

We could also just remove "sea serpent" as category and call them "aquatic breeds" that don't have a specific zombie sprite but just follow the one closer to them (for example eastern zombie sprite for sapo)

I don't agree with changing it to "Aquatic Breeds." That would make specifications based on habitat rather than body type, which would be confusing. I mean, whales, dolphins, seals, orcas, etc are all mammals, Sea turtles and sea snakes are reptiles, and Fish are two entire Superclasses (had to look that one up.) They, however, are all aquatic animals. 

 

I'd rather go with the addition @olympe's Aquatic Westerns suggestion than changing the entire Sea Serpent breed, even if I don't entirely agree with it. 

 

We do need more Leviathans though... *scribbles down DR request ideas*

[Naruhina_94]

I think that some breed classifications are quite hard to do about due to the fact we only have two sprite at best to show the anatomy of the breed. Some of the dragons you listed I don't necessarily see as winged eastern cause to my personal view they are bulky enough to be just western.

 

I believe there should be a list since the very start of the "recognizable and accepted" breeds in cave, so when you propose something in dragon request suggestion subforum you can state since the very beginning which subtypes it belongs.

 

If it is new (like a breed with 3 heads or a faerie) it shall be accepted first.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[olympe]

2 hours ago, Naruhina_94 said:

I think that some breed classifications are quite hard or with different opinion about due to the fact we only have two sprite at best to show the anatomy of the breed. Some of the dragons you listed I don't necessarily see as winged eastern cause to my personal view they are bulky enough to be just western.

Maybe, maybe not. In the end, it should be up to the creators. The ones I listed are merely candidates where I think it's worth asking the creators whether they'd like their breed to be  It's also worth mentioning that Winged Eastern is not a category recognized by DC yet, and I know for a fact that Radiant Angels were supposed to be just that.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

Maybe, maybe not. In the end, it should be up to the creators. The ones I listed are merely candidates where I think it's worth asking the creators whether they'd like their breed to be  It's also worth mentioning that Winged Eastern is not a category recognized by DC yet, and I know for a fact that Radiant Angels were supposed to be just that.

 

Exactly this. I would hate our artists to be hamstrung by some dictionary definitions.

[Naruhina_94]

We already have set of rules in dragon suggestions, such as not making dragons that are basically animals with wings.

Having a list of body types options wouldn't be different, I'm sure TJ would make it comprehensive of all the important morphologies, currently released and not, and there could always be more additions in the future

 

a list will be added in game anyway as TJ himself stated at the beginning of this topic. So having it on forum too only seems logic to me.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Naruhina_94