Dragon body types clean-up and clarifications

[Shadowdrake]

After some extended discussion on the current dragon body types, we players have noticed that the lines can be very blurry at times and often appear to contradict each other in the worst cases. As I don't know what TJ's personal qualifications on each type is, I'm going to list out possible definitions for inconclusive categories and their problem dragons.

 

Western: 4 legs, 2 wings.

- either make westerns only count if they can fly/glide, or make all relevant dragons with distinctly wing-derived limbs westerns regardless of capability (see: dorsals (wingless) vs hollies/09 xmases, tercorns, stones, geodes, etc. Dorsal wings have a distinct elbow and are similar to ridgewing wings; the only difference is they are unable to fly, like these other western dragons.)

 

Wingless: 4 legs, no wings, short body.

- see confusion with western.

 

Eastern: 4 legs, no wings, long body.

- defined and walking-capable limbs, regardless of possible ornaments (see: sapo vs many other, shorter easterns). Long and flexible torso with back legs attached far beyond the end of the ribcage. 

 

Sea serpent: no legs, no wings, 2-4 limbs, long body?

- limbs and body are sturdy but compact, evolved to mainly be used for steering through water or air (without being evolved for direct flight), rather than walking. (See: sapo vs other sea serpents and easterns.)

 

Amphiphthere: no legs, 2-4 wings.

- slender body and fragile limbs evolved for direct flight or similar maneuverability in water.

 

 

adding a page on dragon body types to the DR guide would be nice if we can't get an encyclopedia one anytime soon

[Shokomon]

I agree with these, though I may want to add more details to it plus examples.

 

I had posted this in a DR distinguishing Westerns, Easterns, and Wingless Westerns, so it may be relevant here. It's the level of detail that I prefer:

-

On 5/17/2020 at 11:06 PM, Shokomon said:

The best way to describe the difference would be to show you it. Actually, the two "rarest" dragons in the cave are probably the some of the best contrasts between the two types:

 

Golds have a very typical Western shape: Quadrupedal, Lizard-like but with a stocky canine-feline-ish body shape meant to send off a message of power, 2 large wings for flight, and more often than not-decked with horns, spines, sharp teeth, and other pointy things. May or may not have fire breath and a pension for raiding villages and stealing princesses (according to their mythos.) Other good examples below:

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Reds are the Prime Western. The most Western of Western dragons; right down to the fire breath, kidnapping princesses, and raiding villages

Westerns typically have webbed, bat like wings, but sometimes they are feathered with wings like a bird. For example, the Khusa.

And Westerns are typically scaly, but some can be furry and fluffy like our lovely Pillow dragons.

Heartseekers are one of the few dragons on this site whose wings are actually big frills usable for gliding.

 

 

Silvers however have a more typical Eastern shape: Long serpentine-like body shape, Quadrupedal (and sometimes more) long mane extending all the way down the back (and sometimes down the tail as well), a lack of any wings (most of the time), antlers more often than horns, and while not seen in these dragons, long winding whiskers and the occasional goatee. More likely to be literal gods and benevolent (according to their mythos.) Other examples included below:

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Shimmer-scale Prizes are some the most typical examples Of Easterns on the site.

Bolts have fins instead a continuous mane down the back.

The new Venturis dragons are another very typical Eastern. If very fluffy.

Aqualis Dragons are actually aquatic Easterns, so they are all fin with a bit of fluff.

 

With this down, we can go down to wingless Westerns, which can be confused with Easterns, but are basically everything a Western is, but without wings. Often called Drakes elsewhere, they have stocky bodies, are quadrupedal, may or may not have fins, horns, spikes, or frills. Giant Lizards are often a name for them. The Magma dragon seen above is a prime example. Other examples are below:

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Mints are probably the archetype Wingless Western...and a reason why they are called giant lizards. It's in their description after all...

You could likely confuse an Aegis with an Eastern, but its not. Note that the proportions are off. Relatively long limbs to a relatively shorter torso. Easterns are far more snakelike.

Ash Dragons are what I mean when I say "Westerns without wings." If you slapped some big old bat wings on this guy, it would be a Western.

Dorsals are another confusing dragon. Their fins may look like wings, but they are not. The fins are too small for flight, and are there for mating and temperature regulation.

{Snip}

 

Edit: The Dragon Cave Wiki has a good page describing all the Dragon Body Sub-types as well as lists the dragons on site that qualify for each type. You can look it over for more info.

-

[Infinis]

I'm especially confused with sea serpent and easterns, mainly because of the sapo.

 

The sapo is like textbook eastern in appearance: long snakey body, antlers, some kind of spinal decoration, beard/fin-like decoration on the jawline...it even has short legs relative to its body length like you see in classic Chinese dragon art.

 

But it's classed onsite as a sea serpent. 

 

I would guess it's classed as sea serpent because it's aquatic, but then that means the aqualis needs a reclassification because the aqualis is classed as an eastern onsite.

 

So what really determines a sea serpent and how is it differentiated from an eastern? 

 

----

 

Amphiphthere: no legs, 2-4 wings.

 

I don't think amphiptere is ambiguous; it's a legless, usually longer-bodied dragon with at least one pair of wings. All of our current amphipteres fit that bill, unless you mean confusion with sea serpents, but I think that's more of an issue with sea serpent being kind of ambiguous rather than an amphiptere problem

Edited July 8, 2020 by Infinis

[milo]

I found this image a long time ago (unfortunately I don't have the source anymore). I know dc has its own universe/rules but seeing it laid out this way helps me visualize some differences  

[Shadowdrake]

@milo Thanks, but the problem is we know *roughly* the idea of what each type is which, but a) casual players might not, which negatively affects their ability to join the raffle when the qualification is body types, and b) in practice, the lines between some types are a lot thinner or more criss-crossy than they need to be. Thus, explicit clarification would be nice.

[Kigyptnee]

From my understanding of what a sea serpent is, I think there are only two real sea serpents on DC; the water dragon and the deep sea dragon. If environment plays a huge role in determining if a dragon is classified as a sea serpent vs one of the other classifications, I think one could also argue that a Thalassa wyrm is also a sea serpent since it has a serpentine-esque body shape and lives in the water.

 

Looking at some of our aquatic dragons and their classifications:

Eastern: Aqualis

Wingless: Aranoa

Sea Serpent: Deep Sea, Shallow Water, Sapo, Water

Lindwurm: Red-Finned Tidal

Amphiptere: Two-Finned Bluna

Wyrm: Thalassa

 

I agree with @Infinis that Sapos look like textbook easterns. Shallow waters don't look like sea serpents at all. Red-Finned Tidal and Two-Finned Bluna are really similar and probably should be in the same category, probably amphiptere if we had to pick from one of the current body types. And actually, if being really honest, Aqualis don't look like easterns. In fact, Aqualis, Aranoa, and Shallow Water look like they have similar body types to each other, so maybe they should just all be under wingless. Or, we could add a new body type classification called "Aquatic" or something that specifies any dragon that lives under the water. Or Aquatic Easterns, Aquatic Drakes, Aquatic Wyrms....

 

I think this just further proves @Shadowdrake's point that additional clarification on body types would be helpful & hopefully reduce confusion for players...

 

[TJ09]

There's actually plans to add a page to the encyclopedia that addresses this exact topic. No ETA on when it'll happen, but hopefully it'll be able to resolve a lot of the mystery around different dragon body types.

[olympe]

If I may add some ideas as a cross-post from another thread (where I went a bit beyond topic and, well, it would better fit in here):

 

  

11 hours ago, Infinis said:

The RA is classed as a western in spite of what we called it/wanted it to be because western is an objective classification (must have at least four legs and at least one pair of wings). RAs fit western; they possess limbs and wings. The length of body is irrelevant.

I've been thinking a lot about these things recently. Maybe - just maybe - we need a new classification - maybe Northern and Southern (to match Western and Eastern).

Southern would pretty much be "winged Easterns" - long, slender bodies, at least 1 set of wings, 1 set of "arms"/front legs and 1 set of hind legs. This would not only include RAs, but also a number of others. (Features from now on should include at least one more typical "Eastern" feature - mane, horns/antlers or whiskers.) The list below may be incomplete, or include breeds that don't fit perfectly.

Quote

 /  /  /  /  /  / /  /  /  / 

 

Northern could then be an official name for the "ridgewing type" (including Ridgewing, Heartseeker, Carina and maybe Dorsals). Because their wings are build so very, very differently. They may have one main wing arm, but need at least 4 sets of struts along their spine to support the wing. Seawyrms would be a combined type of Northern/Lindwyrm, unfortunately.

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 / /  /  / 

 

Another pet peeve of mine is the classification of aquatic breeds (with body modifications to suit that lifestyle) that don't follow the Sea Serpent / Leviathan pattern (serpentine body + flippers - or they'd be wyrms to begin with...) Just look at the next pics and tell me what they are - and why they are in different groups:

Quote

  /  /  /  /  / /  / 

Just in case you wondered and didn't want to look it up: Aqualis = Eastern (fair enough), Sapo = Sea Serpent (with limbs that aren't fins/flippers, but meh, they look more Eastern to me), Shallow Water = Sea Serpent (WTF?), Water Walker and Waterhorse = Wingless (what is that on their backs, I wonder), Xol and Aranoa = Wingless again (fair enough, but those Xol feet are so very different), Tercorn = Western (you read that right). Which results in the following zombies:

Quote

  => 

 /   =>  (Totally makes sense, dosn't it?)

 /  / /  => 

 =>  (Could almost be twins...)

 

If we look at the similarities, we find the following:

• Legs are definitely there, no flippers. Fingers/Toes are usually webbed to suit their aquatic lifestyle (exception: Waterhorse, maybe Sapo too?). I think a reduction to only front limbs would also work for this.
• Wings are not the norm, but can be there in a very reduced capacity. They're not flight-worth, though.
• A bit of a dorsal ridge is a rather common feature, unless there are wings covering that function (exception: Sapo - although one could argue that the mane is a fluttery dorsal ridge...)

I don't know what to call this group. Amphibian? Natare? Something else entirely?

 

 Last (but definitely least, as it's not a group yet), maybe re-classify Terrae as "Dragas" (as intended by their creator), even if it's not a breeding group of its own. This could (probably) allow them to have different zombie sprites for males and females. Males are regular Winged (Westerns), females regular Wingless or they possess only vestigial/stumpy wings. This may or may not work for other body types: Lindwyrm, Eastern (with and without wings), Amphiptere/Wyrm and even Wyvern/Bipedal (which we don't have yet, but is possible - just look up moas)

Quote

 

 

Anyway, that's my 0.02 $ on dragon classification on DC. /rant

Edited July 8, 2020 by olympe

[Nerei]

8 hours ago, TJ09 said:

There's actually plans to add a page to the encyclopedia that addresses this exact topic. No ETA on when it'll happen, but hopefully it'll be able to resolve a lot of the mystery around different dragon body types.

 

Very glad to hear it! And @olympe makes an excellent point about which sort of things players would like to see addressed.  

[Infinis]

I’d rather not see new classifications to be honest, just real clarification on what we already have and where the dragons fit into those categories. 
 

also, eastern and western are only named eastern and western iirc because nothing better has been found? So adding northern and southern I don’t feel makes a lot of sense, and I don’t think a new category needs to be created to find the RA a placement, or new category for ridged wings - they’re still wings, just a different shape, so a ridgewing is still a western either way, just like a seawyrm is a lindwyrm either way. 

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm with Infinis. I'm not that exercised by the way things are, but the idea of shuffling things around really bothers me.

[Nerei]

Maybe new categories aren’t really needed, but olympe is right in that there are some dragons that just don’t seem to fit neatly in the categories they’re currently placed. The gilded bloodscale in particular looks to me a beautiful example of an eastern — long body, flowy whiskers and all — but they’re called westerns because they have wings? 

[olympe]

22 minutes ago, Infinis said:

also, eastern and western are only named eastern and western iirc because nothing better has been found? So adding northern and southern I don’t feel makes a lot of sense, and I don’t think a new category needs to be created to find the RA a placement, or new category for ridged wings - they’re still wings, just a different shape, so a ridgewing is still a western either way, just like a seawyrm is a lindwyrm either way. 

It doesn't have to be the other cardinal directions, it was just a thought. If you prefer, call dragons like the RA "Weastern" for all I care, as they're a cross between Western and Eastern - or Winged Easterns. And call the Ridgewings D&D Dragons for all I care (or after wherever these wings made their first appearance)

[Naruhina_94]

I personally feel the dragon body type is a relevant part of the game lore. The game is based on us being "dragonkeep" and reasearchers of these great fantasy beasts, so a proper body classification is more than right to do. I'm very glad TJ for your words about implementing an official in-game guide, that will help a lot. If I may I would like to post how I see body type classification so far. 

 

The big families are distinguished by breed limits, a specific breeding limitation that applies among: Regular Dragons - Two Heads - Pigmy - Drakes. That's why we haven't seen a two headed pigmy before or a pigmy drake as they would create a sub-sub family that would make things way too complicated. With that setted in mind each dragon type can have multiple subtypes which I would call "seconday" traits. These subtypes do not influence breeding but they determine very unique body shape and add diversity and deep to the game lore.

 

Western: 4 legs, at least 2 wings 

Eastern: 4 legs, long serpentine body, no wings, they can float and fly around 

Wyvern: 2 hind legs, at least 2 Wings

Amphitere: No legs, at least 2 wings

Lindwyrm: 2 front legs. May have wings or may not.

Wingless: bulky body, 4 legs, no wings they do not fly. If they have wings they aren't able to make them fly, like dorsals.

Wyrm: Long serpentine body without any wings or limbs, only frills, tentacles, horns.

Sea Serpent: Only finns, only live in water or nearby. This means that Sapo and Shallow Waters do not apply as Sea Serpent as they have limbs. Stratos could make an exception as their very concept is being flying whales basically, with actual finns instead of wings. Being an Aquatic breed is different than being a Sea Serpent. Sea serpent has more specific requirments, if you want to include every aquatic breed in a single category it should change name.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1veDGUD2u1o2GJ-c9c7zktIimxKsnZqu5f6pryG96krU/edit?usp=sharing

 

I would agree on giving more unique names, expecially to western-eastern and wingless as they aren't referring to anything in Valkemare

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[olympe]

31 minutes ago, Naruhina_94 said:

Western: 4 legs, at least 2 wings 

Eastern: 4 legs, long serpentine body, no wings, they can float and fly around 

Wyvern: 2 hind legs, at least 2 Wings

Amphitere: No legs, at least 2 wings

Lindwyrm: 2 front legs, may have wings (right now, all lindwyrms on DC do have wings, sometimes more than one set)

Wingless: bulky body, 4 legs, no wings they do not fly. If they have wings they aren't able to make them fly, like male terrae dorsal, waterhorse or water walker.

Wyrm: Long serpentine body without any wings or limbs, only frills, tentacles, horns.

Sea Serpent: Only finns, only live in water or nearby. This means that Sapo and Shallow Waters do not apply as Sea Serpent as they have limbs. Stratos could make an exception as their very concept is being flying whales basically, with actual finns instead of wings. Being an Aquatic breed is different than being a Sea Serpent. Sea serpent has more specific requirments, if you want to include every aquatic breed in a single category it should change name.

I made some small edits...

 

Also, that link you posted - I can't access it. (Access denied.)

 

[Naruhina_94]

Yea i fix the access now, sorry. 

The male terrae can fly? Does he have a different zombie sprite than the female? 

Some things you added i left blanch on purpose, as lindwyrm only requirement is the two front limb, the rest can differ, but yes, it's always better to specify thanks

Edited July 9, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[DragonLady86]

58 minutes ago, Naruhina_94 said:

Yea i fix the access now, sorry. 

The male terrae can fly? Does he have a different zombie sprite than the female? 

Some things you added i left blanch on purpose, as lindwyrm only requirement is the two front limb, the rest can differ, but yes, it's always better to specify thanks

The male can fly and could be called a western but the way the code is set up each breed can only have one classification.  And thus, only one zombie. This was brought up when the new zombies were first added.  TJ said he went with wingless for both because there was less of that group than westerns.

[olympe]

I looked through the description, the encyclopedia (which was sadly empty on Terrae) and the creator's comments on the wiki, and didn't find a single mention of male Terrae being unable to fly. What I did find, though, is that females have remnants of wings within their body, but I'm not going to argue the point of re-classifying them as Westerns. But that's why I suggested they be re-classified as Dragas (as intended). Sure, males and females would need different zombie sprites (and ND/vampires, if we ever get different body types for them), but it would give TJ a name for a group with "wing dimorphism" (male winged, female wingless). And maybe it will spark some more dragon breeds with this kind of gender dimorphism. Who knows?

[DragonLady86]

The problem is only one type per species. That is why male terraes become wingless. Also why all the zues are under the western umbrella. A subtype is possible, but without new zombies wont change much. (Terraes came up several times in the birthday thread for 16.) That's the way it is coded. If wants to change that, assuming he can, that's up to him. 

[Shokomon]

On 7/8/2020 at 7:43 AM, olympe said:

If I may add some ideas as a cross-post from another thread (where I went a bit beyond topic and, well, it would better fit in here):

 

On 7/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Infinis said:

The RA is classed as a western in spite of what we called it/wanted it to be because western is an objective classification (must have at least four legs and at least one pair of wings). RAs fit western; they possess limbs and wings. The length of body is irrelevant.

I've been thinking a lot about these things recently. Maybe - just maybe - we need a new classification - maybe Northern and Southern (to match Western and Eastern).

Southern would pretty much be "winged Easterns" - long, slender bodies, at least 1 set of wings, 1 set of "arms"/front legs and 1 set of hind legs. This would not only include RAs, but also a number of others. (Features from now on should include at least one more typical "Eastern" feature - mane, horns/antlers or whiskers.) The list below may be incomplete, or include breeds that don't fit perfectly.

Spoiler

 no

/  no

/ no

 /  no

/ no

 / maybe

 / no

/  no

/  yes

/  / no

I don't know if I would agree with any of theses as Winged Easterns other than the Radiant Angel Everything else has believable torso like something you would see on a dog, cat, lizard, or (in on case) alligator. Easterns are l o n g. They've got far more snake like torso. There is another dragon that would work with this definition that's actually not listed here are the glided blood scales:

  compared to 

That's just my opinion though.

I wouldn't mind the alternate designation as a new body type group. 

 

On 7/8/2020 at 7:43 AM, olympe said:

Northern could then be an official name for the "ridgewing type" (including Ridgewing, Heartseeker, Carina and maybe Dorsals). Because their wings are build so very, very differently. They may have one main wing arm, but need at least 4 sets of struts along their spine to support the wing. Seawyrms would be a combined type of Northern/Lindwyrm, unfortunately.

Spoiler

 / /  /  / 

 

Maybe? 

Dorsal are questionable because their frills are not made for flight. Would they even count? Or would this be any dragon with frills instead of wings? 

 

On 7/8/2020 at 7:43 AM, olympe said:

Another pet peeve of mine is the classification of aquatic breeds (with body modifications to suit that lifestyle) that don't follow the Sea Serpent / Leviathan pattern (serpentine body + flippers - or they'd be wyrms to begin with...) Just look at the next pics and tell me what they are - and why they are in different groups:

Spoiler

  /  /  /  /  / /  / 

Just in case you wondered and didn't want to look it up: Aqualis = Eastern (fair enough), Sapo = Sea Serpent (with limbs that aren't fins/flippers, but meh, they look more Eastern to me), Shallow Water = Sea Serpent (WTF?), Water Walker and Waterhorse = Wingless (what is that on their backs, I wonder), Xol and Aranoa = Wingless again (fair enough, but those Xol feet are so very different), Tercorn = Western (you read that right). Which results in the following zombies:

Spoiler

  => 

 /   =>  (Totally makes sense, dosn't it?)

 /  / /  => 

 =>  (Could almost be twins...)

 

If we look at the similarities, we find the following:

• Legs are definitely there, no flippers. Fingers/Toes are usually webbed to suit their aquatic lifestyle (exception: Waterhorse, maybe Sapo too?). I think a reduction to only front limbs would also work for this.
• Wings are not the norm, but can be there in a very reduced capacity. They're not flight-worth, though.
• A bit of a dorsal ridge is a rather common feature, unless there are wings covering that function (exception: Sapo - although one could argue that the mane is a fluttery dorsal ridge...)

I don't know what to call this group. Amphibian? Natare? Something else entirely?

I don't think i would be fair to lump these guys into one group. That's like lumping whales and sharks in one group because they are all oceanic life forms dependent on fins and strong tails for movement. Convergent evolution is a thing. 

 

It would be better to lump these guys with the body types they actually represent:

Spoiler

  =>  

- this makes sense because they have similar morphology - long winding bodies and tails 

 /   =>  

- I agree that these don't make sense at all.

- Sapo is almost a complete typical representation of an Eastern - long winding body/tail with small four limbs similar to land creatures like dogs/cats, long mane (in this case fin) stretching the entire length of the body, branched antlers, and whiskers. Only thing missing is a goatee. 

- Shallow Waters look like repurposed Wingless Westerns - shorter stockier body with strong digitigrade limbs 

 /  / /  => 

- These make sense because none of the dragons actually have wings or functional winglike structures. Water walkers and water horses wing-like structures lack any actual wing bony structures (arms, elbows, fingers) looking closer to fins or lizard dewlaps, neither of which are large enough to provide actual flight. Xols and Aroanas are like the Shallow Waters, westerns that are adapted to aquatic life, like sea otters or sea turtles. 

 =>  

- And this one I agree is a Western, because while lacking in the ability to fly, it does have actual wing ones; humerus, radius, ulna, wrist bones, and phalanges are all present. It similarly to the above wingless westerns has adapted two aquatic life, depending on their limbs and tail for movement, decreasing the use of wings, causing them to atrophied and reduce in size over subsequent generations.

 

On 7/8/2020 at 7:43 AM, olympe said:

 Last (but definitely least, as it's not a group yet), maybe re-classify Terrae as "Dragas" (as intended by their creator), even if it's not a breeding group of its own. This could (probably) allow them to have different zombie sprites for males and females. Males are regular Winged (Westerns), females regular Wingless or they possess only vestigial/stumpy wings. This may or may not work for other body types: Lindwyrm, Eastern (with and without wings), Amphiptere/Wyrm and even Wyvern/Bipedal (which we don't have yet, but is possible - just look up moas)

Quote

{snip}

This I agree with. The presence and absence of limbs is a very big evolutionary divergence.

 

In truth we shouldn't be able to breed any of these guys with each other at all. Like not just because it would result in hybrids, but they would be genetically incompatible. 

 

But eh. What can you do? 

 

On 7/8/2020 at 7:07 PM, olympe said:

On 7/8/2020 at 6:18 PM, Naruhina_94 said:

Western: 4 legs, at least 2 wings/functional wing-like structures 

Eastern: 4 legs, long serpentine body, no wings/wing-like structures; they can float and fly around 

Wyvern: 2 hind legs, at least 2 Wings/functional wing-like structures 

Amphitere: No legs, at least 2 wings/functional wing-like structures 

Lindwyrm: 2 front legs, may have wings/functional wing-like structures (right now, all lindwyrms on DC do have wings, sometimes more than one set)

Wingless: bulky body, 4 legs, no wings, they do not fly. If they have wings they aren't able to make them fly, like male terrae Any wing-like structures present are non-functional. Ex: Dorsal, Waterhorse or Water Walker.

Wyrm: Long serpentine body without any wings, functional wing-like structures, or limbs; only frills, tentacles, horns, antlers, and other decorative features

Sea Serpent: Only fins, only live in water or nearby. This means that Sapo and Shallow Waters do not apply as Sea Serpent as they have limbs. Stratos could make an exception as their very concept is being flying whales basically, with actual fins instead of wings. Being an Aquatic breed is different than being a Sea Serpent. Sea serpent has more specific requirements, if you want to include every aquatic breed in a single category it should change name.

I made some small edits...

 

Also, that link you posted - I can't access it. (Access denied.)

I should probably mention that I consider wings to be anything matching insect or known vertebrate wings. Frills are not wings, even if you can use them as such. Flying lizards, squirrels, and snakes all of structures that help them glide, but none of them are wings. But, I agree with pretty much everything else. 

 

On 7/9/2020 at 11:45 AM, DragonLady86 said:

The problem is only one type per species. That is why male terraes become wingless. Also why all the zues are under the western umbrella. A subtype is possible, but without new zombies wont change much. (Terraes came up several times in the birthday thread for 16.) That's the way it is coded. If wants to change that, assuming he can, that's up to him. 

Zyumorphs make no sense. Xenowyrms are considered all different breeds, despite being inter-related dragons, all with the same body type and capability of producing other xenowyrms. (ie Breeding an Astrapi can net you a Pharos if the conditions are right.) 

 

But Zyumorphs, despite all of them having radically different body structures, AND incapable of breeding other Zyumorphs (You can't get a red Zyumorph from a black Zyumorph or vice versa), are considered one breed. The ONLY thing that connects them other than their similar coloration patterns is that they summon the Sinomorph. That's like saying the Legendary Trio (Magma, Ice, Thunder) are all the same breed because they summon the GoN. Guess what? THEY AREN'T.

 

I'm not over this, and I never will be. I think it's stupid. 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

I'm in full support of this! I think everything needs to be on one linear level based on their physical appearance. Personally what's in the OP sounds good to me, but like Shokomon says it seems that some dragons need to be categorised on a case-by-case basis

[olympe]

I must admit that I did look over pretty much every dragon breed (thrice) and catalogued / sorted them by body type (twice) again - just to get it as perfect as I could. Which led to some alteration.

For winged Easterns, I found the following strong candidates:

   

For the Jester and Mutamore, perspective might make the torso look shorter than it is, honestly.

 

Other breeds that share various Eastern traits, but also wings but a body that isn't too elongated:

All three have a mane and either a tail tuft or some extra mane on the ventral side of the tail. All three haveeither horns or antlers. And all three have a slightly elongated body.

While the neo lacks any body hair, it's a rather noodle-y dragon, maybe even too noodle-y for a true Western. But, yes, it's a little bit far out there and more Western-like than the others.

 

I also took water horses out of my list of "natare" candidates. They just don't match. But if they're taken out, you get a number of features that match:

• front and hind legs adapted to an aquatic lifestyle through various measures: elongated toes/fingers and webbing between them.
• a bit of a dorsal ridge
• if wings are there, they're reduced (smaller, not meant for flying)

I also found another sub-group I'd like to address: Bipedal Westerns. Because we have quite a few Westerns that have front limbs way, way shorter than their hind limbs, hinting at them being bipedal (like a number of dinosaurs). Let me show you some examples:

      

I may be alone with this opinion, but I think that, if a dragon's hind legs are about twice as long as the forelegs (and it isn't a serpentine-bodied Eastern), chances are that it doesn't move well on all four legs, but will prefer walking on its dominant hind legs. If you want to prove me wrong - I'd really like to see soemthing like the cheese dragon or the Tangar in a pose where it is walking/standing comfortably on all fours. (Comfortably meaning it won't have to fold its hind legs in half.) Which leads to the consequence that we should expect to arrive at bipedal dragons without wings eventually.

 

1 hour ago, Shokomon said:

Dorsal are questionable because their frills are not made for flight. Would they even count? Or would this be any dragon with frills instead of wings? 

Well, that's the question. There sure is a wing arm where I can make out humerus, radius&ulna as well as something I can only describe as "hand". Not to mention several struts to keep the membrane in shape.

That being said, flight-worthiness doesn't always correspond to the body type. (And you use the reverse argument for Tercorns, coincidentially.) I could also name a number of examples where the flight-worthiness of a "Western" dragon's wings can be disputed:

Black Tea, Holly, Geode, Yulebuck, Balloon (they use gas to get up there, not their wings!), Mutamore, Pumpkin). So, why does it matter whether the wings allow for flight or not in the case of Dorsals?

 

Another thing that might become a thing (or not) is a distinction between multi-fingered bat-like wings and one-fingered wings (which applies to both bird wings and pterodactyl wings), not to mention the very different build of ridgewings. And, yes, we have this one-fingered wing for each winged body type.

Wyvern: Floret and Coastal Waverunner (the one true pterodactyl dragon)

Amphiptere: Lacula, Wintertide (probably. maybe.) and  Aeria Gloris

Lindwyrm: Erador

And, of course, more than a dozen on the Western front (two of them pygmies).

 

Not to mention multi-winged types. Some have very minor "extra" wings (like both Luminas and Snow Angel), but others have extra wings that are quite major.

  

 

ETA: I must admit I was not ready to tackle Zyumorphs in this diatribe. Nope. Not my rabbit hole to go down, not my hill to die on.  

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by olympe

[Shokomon]

5 hours ago, olympe said:

I must admit that I did look over pretty much every dragon breed (thrice) and catalogued / sorted them by body type (twice) again - just to get it as perfect as I could. Which led to some alteration.

For winged Easterns, I found the following strong candidates:

   

For the Jester and Mutamore, perspective might make the torso look shorter than it is, honestly.

I think I'm just going to agree to disagree on Jesters and Mutamores. Mutamores are very crocodilian in shape, which doesn't exactly work with the long serpentine body shape eastern have. Jesters give an impression of a sitting dog with a similar body length, and if there is some foreshortening, I'd still expect the back to be more arched considering how close the forelegs are to the hind legs. The Glided Bloodscales have a similar position as well, but still convey the longer torso.

 

Quote

Other breeds that share various Eastern traits, but also wings but a body that isn't too elongated:

All three have a mane and either a tail tuft or some extra mane on the ventral side of the tail. All three haveeither horns or antlers. And all three have a slightly elongated body.

While the neo lacks any body hair, it's a rather noodle-y dragon, maybe even too noodle-y for a true Western. But, yes, it's a little bit far out there and more Western-like than the others.

So what would you label these guys, since they share traits with both Western and Eastern dragons? Eastern-Western hybrids? Pseudo-Easterns? Pseudo-Westerns? 

 

Quote

I also took water horses out of my list of "natare" candidates. They just don't match. But if they're taken out, you get a number of features that match:

• front and hind legs adapted to an aquatic lifestyle through various measures: elongated toes/fingers and webbing between them.
• a bit of a dorsal ridge
• if wings are there, they're reduced (smaller, not meant for flying)

Spoiler

  /   VS  /  / /   vs 

Hmm. I feel like I would still put Aqualises and Sapos with Easterns and Tercorns with Westerns, but the rest could make a group of aquatic drakes. 

 

Quote

I also found another sub-group I'd like to address: Bipedal Westerns. Because we have quite a few Westerns that have front limbs way, way shorter than their hind limbs, hinting at them being bipedal (like a number of dinosaurs). Let me show you some examples:

      

I may be alone with this opinion, but I think that, if a dragon's hind legs are about twice as long as the forelegs (and it isn't a serpentine-bodied Eastern), chances are that it doesn't move well on all four legs, but will prefer walking on its dominant hind legs. If you want to prove me wrong - I'd really like to see something like the cheese dragon or the Tangar in a pose where it is walking/standing comfortably on all fours. (Comfortably meaning it won't have to fold its hind legs in half.) Which leads to the consequence that we should expect to arrive at bipedal dragons without wings eventually.

Ehhh maybe? Based on the dragons you've picked at least. They could be like Hadrosaurids who can walk on all fours or upright depending on the situation. Though, as for which dragons qualify, I would re-examine this list because some of them look like a dog standing on its hind legs, which would mean that they are definitely quadrupedal, but are just posed that way. 

It's funny, because the two dragons I would consider upright dragons aren't on here:  

- Diamondwings (especially considering the S1 stage and the art drawn for them in the wiki): 

- Red Zyumorph (see my rant on Zyumorphs on why they should be separated by body types): 

 

Quote

Well, that's the question. There sure is a wing arm where I can make out humerus, radius&ulna as well as something I can only describe as "hand". Not to mention several struts to keep the membrane in shape.

That being said, flight-worthiness doesn't always correspond to the body type. (And you use the reverse argument for Tercorns, coincidentially.) I could also name a number of examples where the flight-worthiness of a "Western" dragon's wings can be disputed:

Black Tea, Holly, Geode, Yulebuck, Balloon (they use gas to get up there, not their wings!), Mutamore, Pumpkin). So, why does it matter whether the wings allow for flight or not in the case of Dorsals?

- With Dorsals, the encyclopedia refers to them as fins, not wings, so I assume they are, albeit misshaped, frills. If they were referred as wings, I would put them in the Western category like I did with the Tercorns. In my mind, wings have to be present on a Western or if they don't have actual wings, then the wing-like structures must be capable of light, otherwise they are meant a different function like lizard dewlaps or the sails of various dinosaurs used for thermoregulation. 

- It would make it too confusing if we made Wingless western mean "flightless Western." Then, any western that can't fly because it's too heavy or its wings were too small or it lacked the strength for flight.  

 

Quote

Another thing that might become a thing (or not) is a distinction between multi-fingered bat-like wings and one-fingered wings (which applies to both bird wings and pterodactyl wings), not to mention the very different build of ridgewings. And, yes, we have this one-fingered wing for each winged body type.

Wyvern: Floret and Coastal Waverunner (the one true pterodactyl dragon)

Amphiptere: Lacula, Wintertide (probably. maybe.) and  Aeria Gloris

Lindwyrm: Erador

And, of course, more than a dozen on the Western front (two of them pygmies).

 

Not to mention multi-winged types. Some have very minor "extra" wings (like both Luminas and Snow Angel), but others have extra wings that are quite major.

  

 

I agree with this, but would splitting the body types by wing type be worth it? 

Example:

Spoiler

True Bird Wings: 

Pterosaur-like/1-finger wings: 

Bat-like/multi-finger wings: 

Hybrid wings: 

Frill-based Wings: 

- I'm not entirely sure about Eradors, but they have the struts that look like they overlap with finger placement, so it makes me think those structures are still there despite it being feathered. 

- We don't have any fully feathered wyverns, surprisingly.

 

And, does that mean we should separate the dragons by scales/fur/feathers? I mean we have some dragons that are fully feathered, partially feathered, partially furred, almost fully furred (Pillows), Scaled, and Skin only. 

Spoiler

Fully Feathered (mostly): 

Partially Feathered: 

Fully Furred (mostly): 

Partially Furred: 

Fully Scaled: 

Partially scaled: 

Skin only: 

 

That seems like a lot.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Shokomon

[Shadowdrake]

I don't think there's much point in separating things *this* far, because the only places body types are used is a) zombies and b) raffle entries, both of which can already be constrictive. Simple bodily divisons is best, regardless of whether it has fur or feathers or scales. Zombie types with only one or two applicable breeds is already a pain; I don't want to see more of those.

 

And in the end, this doesn't necessarily need to be a hardcore all-knowing categorization; this is simply us writing in our encyclopedia what we think these dragons are--2 legged, 4 legged, finned and winged.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Shadowdrake

[Fuzzbucket]

Whew - thanks Shadowdrake. My brain was really hurting. I truly Do Not Care (unless our Zombies were to change - that would be mega annoying..)