New Biomes

[pederino]

Not trying to be rude... but can you please explain. I think I got lost in translation!...

 

The only think I understand is the floating rocks and clouds.. Do we know that DC has floating islands and magical clouds... Just saying that its magical doesn't seem like a great idea IMO, it just sounds like "it the best thing I could come up with"...

At least mountains are easy to explain, look at mount everest. I could imagine that the himalayas and other mountain ranges make a suitable place for the "sky" dragons to hang out. I always imagined "sky" dragons being able to tolerate lower amount of O2 compared to dragons...  Like the aquatic breeds being able to extract O2 from water...

 

The fact is, DC is fiction, so we can sometimes bend the rules of physics, and we dont always have to be adding "real" stuff or depend on them to add magical stuff. BTW, what is mana? Rocks infused with magic. How rocks can be infused with magic in the DC world? who knows, all we have is that they must be in places with strong magic. What is the real difference between ice mana and water mana? I mean, they are both magic after all, how can somebody really differentiate both kinds of magic.

Aaaand Niyaka responded you with Air Mana and real floating islands in DC, go figure :/. Though I dont remember about it, it probably was on one of those events in which I was on hiatus.

 

As an avid aquarist, I understand that many associate large bodies of water as the ocean. However many freshwater systems (rift lakes in Africa... Malawi, Victoria and Tanganyika; Baikal lake, amazon; nile; congo and mekong systems as other examples) are considered large bodies of freshwater which I imagine that dragons could live in with little migration to the marine environment. (So i guesstimated that Thalassa could live in freshwater, unless creator says otherwise!)

 

Remember, I said large amounts of water mana, not just water. I am guessing that in a river water mana may not be as pure and be mixed with life mana (gaia xenowyrm). But yeah, overall rivers and lakes seems like logical homes for the thalassa xenowyrm.

[Tango]

I only think one new biome is needed, two at most. Taking that into account, what would you guys pick? My picks are still floating islands/sky and some kind of chaos wasteland, I think there's plenty of room for creativity there unlike savannah and freshwater which are already very similar to current biomes.

[silver_tiger]

I still think we need a plains biome of some sort; when I think of Forests and Jungle, large open areas like a prairie or a steppe do not come to mind, and that is a biome that I think is needed. I can think of at least five dragons off the top of my head that would fit in a large, open grassland like that.

 

I would love the chaos wasteland as well, and if there was a third option I would go with the sky islands, especially now that someone has stated they already exist in DC lore.

[NotBambi]

If we're going to talk about freshwater systems don't leave out the Great Lakes, since it's the largest freshwater system in the world. Plenty of room in Lake Superior for dragons. (I happen to live in the Great Lakes State, so when you talk freshwater systems I naturally think of the Great Lakes.)

 

Our current map does have a couple larger bodies of freshwater which I think we could consider using as the map area for a freshwater biome, or perhaps adding an area would be possible. It's true that freshwater ecosystems and saltwater ecosystems are very different. One could argue that most of our freshwater dragons can fit nicely in existing biomes, but making a freshwater biome would perhaps extend options there. 

 

 

I do think when talking about adding biomes we should look at the current map and think what would fit the world we have there. Savannah/steppes/plains are an example of something that I think would fit.

 

Right now the thinking is that our forest areas include meadows and our jungles include savannahs. However, savannahs are low rainfall areas. Jungles are not usually considered low rainfall. And hey look, we have some areas on the map between our forests and some of our deserts that are blank. Steppes and short grass plains are semi-arid, low rainfall areas that in my mind would fit nicely between our forests and deserts. So, in this case, we have a map area or two that already lends itself, we have some breeds already that would fit well. (Horse dragons, I'm looking at you in particular) and the type of area we're talking about isn't an obvious part of existing biomes. Perfect.

Great idea, I can see your point about the map, we should choose habitats that fit the existing world there.

If we could have only one additional biome, my preference would go to Grassland (prairies, savannas, steppes, etc.) large, open pastures. If we could have two, I would love Freshater (wetlands, lakes, swamps, rivers etc.) for all those dragons that love water but not salt

Edited May 30, 2016 by NotBambi

[Pokemonfan13]

Tango, I see your point, but to me it's more important to actually get important real habitats that are being ignored or invisibly shoved into completely different habitats than to get into weird fantasy habitats, assuming there aren't going to be enough biomes added to cover everything.

 

We also already have two "wasteland" biomes that shouldn't be able to support much of anything: desert and volcano. The volcano is described as "barren volcanic plains", which means it's fresh lava rock that nothing is growing in yet, plus fresh hot lava, and of course the noxious gasses that go with it. Rather like the gorgeous background image now gracing that biome. I just don't think it's reasonable, with our theoretical two new biomes, to use one to add one more biome that shouldn't be able to support much of anything. (I'm assuming the "chaos wasteland" isn't very life friendly because the term "wasteland" is used to describe it)

 

If it wasn't for the fact that we now have pretty biome art, which somewhat locks our current biomes in place, I'd be a supporter of merging the two "wasteland" biomes along with adding any other inhospitable locations to it. This and possibly also merging the two tree-based biomes would give more room for a better variety of lush, life filled biomes without even needing to increase the number. As it stands, without the unpalatable decision to dump some of Nakase's gorgeous work, there really isn't much option for biome rearrangement, so the best plan is to add some extras.

 

 

If we only get one or two, I'd say a grassland is a must. Right now they're either nonexistent or merged into forest and jungle in a vague way that nobody really knows. Grassland is a very different habitat than trees, and maybe we would get some more dragons that are specifically designed for a grassland habitat if we actually had one.

 

Then I'd probably go with tundra/arctic, since right now any dragon that likes the cold is being shoved on top of a mountain, even if they'd really prefer vast icy expanses. The only downside is, are there enough dragons to fill it? If we do get a tundra/arctic biome, it would probably have to come with a release of a few cold loving dragons to help it be properly populated. It might also have to cover areas that are warmer than actual tundra, where the winters are still harsh and long but the somewhat shorter and cooler summers are still lush and vibrant, allowing dragons that can survive a harsh winter but need more than the rather barren tundra to live in the biome as well.

 

Some sort of specifically freshwater biome would be nice, but I think it's less urgent than some of the others, simply because you can reasonably argue that the coast biome includes all water, not just the ocean. It's at least more obvious than "jungle and forest also include tropical and temperate grasslands", when it's not actually stated anywhere...

 

I have nothing against a "sky" biome, as long as the really necessary basic ones are also added. However, I still think that if we have a "sky" biome, it has to be an unlockable biome rather than one available from the beginning, even if it's as easy to unlock as getting a bronze trophy. The new scroll is a new dragon tamer, tramping around the landscape looking for their first eggs. How exactly would they reach islands in the sky? It's easy enough for experienced dragon tamers to get there, they fly on one of their adult dragons. A newbie doesn't have adult dragons, and if it's just like all the others, a newbie could get their first eggs from a sky biome that they shouldn't be able to reach. Probably the most logical, but somewhat complicated, thing would be to set specific dragons as "able to carry a human in flight", and require one of those adults to be on the scroll to unlock the sky biome. I think setting it to unlock at bronze trophy level would also be reasonable. If it's available from day 1 to everyone, there needs to be description that includes how a newbie would be able to reach the biome. (Primitive hot air balloons? Really long (and scary) rope ladder? Dragon ferry service?)

Edited May 30, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[olympe]

Well, if it comes to "most important new biomes", I'd vote for grasslands. There's just so much potential, plus they don't really appear to be included in any other biome, even though they are by lore. Everything else is secondary to grasslands, if you ask me.

 

Tied for 2nd place are a freshwater biome (rivers, lakes, swamps) and probably a cold weather biome.

 

All other biomes seem to be less important, as they'd be much less populated if we take the completed list into account. Still, Skylands, "Chaosmagicland", Underground and even a split of the grasslands biome (prairie + meadows?) would be interesting additions.

 

And I still like the idea of unlockable ("remote") biomes that you need to unlock by meeting certain requirements. Skylands, a magical Wasteland, deep Underground and even deep ocean would be perfect for something like this. (Skylands could easily be unlocked by any big dragon that's able to fly, a magical wasteland might need you to possess at least one Cassare and/or one magic-based dragon (Magi, Mageia, Black, GoN...), deep Underground would need some cave-dwelling breed that yet needs to be designated, and the deep ocean might require one leviathan (water, deep sea) to get you there. Maybe even make it a BSA that lets you go there for 1 hour at a time, with a cooldown of 24 hours.

 

Edited for typo

Edited May 30, 2016 by olympe

[Tango]

Out of the dragons we have, which would fit grassland but not forest or desert?

[_Sin_]

Well, if it comes to "most important new biomes", I'd vote for grasslands. There's just so much potential, plus they don't really appear to be included in any other biome, even though they are by lore. Everything else is secondary to grasslands, if you ask me.

 

Tied for 2nd place are a freshwater biome (rivers, lakes, swamps) and probably a cold weather biome.

 

All other biomes seem to be less important, as they'd be much less populated if we take the completed list into account. Still, Skylands, "Chaosmagicland", Underground and even a split of the grasslands biome (prairie + meadows?) would be interesting additions.

Count me on the "add Grasslands first" camp. I slightly prefer the freshwater over the cold weather (were you thinking the arctic tundra referenced by others or something else?) but would not oppose either.

I have nothing against a "sky" biome, as long as the really necessary basic ones are also added.  However, I still think that if we have a "sky" biome, it has to be an unlockable biome rather than one available from the beginning, even if it's as easy to unlock as getting a bronze trophy.  The new scroll is a new dragon tamer, tramping around the landscape looking for their first eggs.  How exactly would they reach islands in the sky?  It's easy enough for experienced dragon tamers to get there, they fly on one of their adult dragons.  A newbie doesn't have adult dragons, and if it's just like all the others, a newbie could get their first eggs from a sky biome that they shouldn't be able to reach.  Probably the most logical, but somewhat complicated, thing would be to set specific dragons as "able to carry a human in flight", and require one of those adults to be on the scroll to unlock the sky biome.  I think setting it to unlock at bronze trophy level would also be reasonable.  If it's available from day 1 to everyone, there needs to be description that includes how a newbie would be able to reach the biome.  (Primitive hot air balloons?  Really long (and scary) rope ladder?  Dragon ferry service?)

^^ This.

[olympe]

Out of the dragons we have, which would fit grassland but not forest or desert?

Well, Horse Dragons (or dragon horses?) would be on top of the list, due to them needing space for their running take-offs. And deserts don't really work well for that, for neither sand nor sharp rocks are ideal for creatures with a single hoof on each leg.

 

Terraes need lots of sunlight, since they perform photosynthesis, but they also need to forage (if my memory isn't faulty). The ground of both forest and jungle is too dark, since the leaves already take up most of the light for their own photosynthesis. Yet in the desert, there's too little plant life (and no place for the flightless females to hide).

 

Whiptails need open space for doing their races, so they'd fit better in a grasslands biome than any of the wooded biomes.

 

Anagallis would be a better match for grasslands (mostly prairie) than any of the three biomes they currently inhabit. Dorsals seem to be a better fit for grasslands (prairie) than for jungle. Summer seasonals are a good fit, too - on the same grounds that winter seasonals got moved to Alpine. Hooktalons would work for both Grasslands and Desert - "bushlands" are usually quite grassy, too.

 

And, of course, there's that long completed list with lots of concepts that got shoved either into desert or jungle or forest due to the lack of a grasslands biome.

[kiramaru7]

Having stumbled upon this thread & reading it through, I like the idea of getting a grassland biome. I think the other biomes should stay as is, but maybe change "Coast" to simply "Water" as the encompasses and type of water from a puddle to river to a lake, to the ocean, to a swamp. Just my thoughts & nothing more.

[Pokemonfan13]

Tango, horse dragon is the most obvious. It's known for it's running takeoff to attack prey spotted from the ground. This means it needs wide open spaces. The desert isn't ideal because sand does not give good footing for a horse's hooves, which a horse dragon also has. A horse has to work much harder in sand and risks injury.

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The surface of grasslands is much better for a fast running horse dragon.

 

There may not be many others that really need to be in grasslands like Horse, but how much of that is because there is no grasslands for people to design a dragon for? There are also plenty of dragons that might fit well in grasslands as well as their current habitat, but don't explicitly state it because there is no "grasslands" biome. At least any that are in the forest or jungle but don't explicitly state that they interact with trees should be considered for grasslands. The best bet for information would be for the artists themselves to say if their dragons would fit in a grasslands biome.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[aussieJJDude]

Is it possible to have hemispheres on DC...? Like how it is now, or at least latitude regions? That way you could have a lot of the (hot) deserts, jungles, coast areas and then towards the poles have the (cold) deserts, forests, alpine and coastal regions... I imagine that the volcanic could fit into both?

 

 

TJ has previously mentioned floating islands somewhere on his Lore AMA… I can't find his exact post, but I do recall something about floating islands on the eastern side of Galsreim that float because of crystallized air mana. Not that I think that these islands should be their own biome, but they probably do exist in DC.

Oh, thats good news to hear. I was playing devil's advocate until the myth/rumor was proven otherwise, but since it is a sky biome does fit into DC.

 

The fact is, DC is fiction, so we can sometimes bend the rules of physics, and we dont always have to be adding "real" stuff or depend on them to add magical stuff.

I personally believe there's a difference between bending the rules and then making them up altogether. If TJ says that thingy "x" doesn't exist in DC, then we have the right to respect that. Bending those rules to suit will only work if TJ says so. If he doesn't have a explanation, then I sure we have a team of people using scientific principles and applying it to DC.

(EG: Pandora - the fictional planet... And the floating islands are supported to the the amount of magnetic repulsion between the planet and the islands itself... Something that is explained by science!)

BTW, what is mana?

Clickly "The energy to power all forms of magic comes from a substance called mana. This liquid provides the energy that is utilized when casting a spell (or otherwise using magic)"...

^^^ With that in mind I always thought as mana as a free flowing substance and if enough pressure, heat or is reacted it will solidify into rocks... Similar to Carbon existing as a gas, solid or even in an aqueous solution. Of course, their "state" depends on what they have reacted with ect...

 

Aaaand Niyaka responded you with Air Mana and real floating islands in DC, go figure :/.

(Sorry, but this sounded a bit rude. I'm sure it wasn't meant to come out this way, but its worth mentioning that it came off rather snarky and arrogant.)

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Tango, about this "chaos wasteland" couldn't you say is similar to the desert and volcano biomes? I always thought the desert and volcanos as a wasteland... But still, seeing the creations (or nightmares) that could be included in this biome would be interesting!

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PK13, how is it reasonable to 'argue that the coast biome includes all water, not just the ocean'.... When I hear coast, I say ocean... Not all water types.. (OK, maybe mangrove forests and estuaries, but not freshwater lakes.) Even the art to me looks very "salty"...

Edited May 31, 2016 by aussieJJDude

[Tango]

The chaos wastelands are less of a wasteland imo and more chaos. Kind of weird to have a biome named chaos though.

 

Actually, on the theme of chaos my interpretation is that the biome would actually be pretty crowded with all sorts of weird things. When you mix a bunch of mana and dragons and step back it's going to end up loud and dangerous, not quiet.

[Fiona]

The problem I see with your Chaos biome idea is that it doesn't blend with what we already have. It doesn't fit the dragons we have now or the overall tone of our natural world. Basically, what I see from the mana system is a system of balance, of natural checks from one part to another. I know there is more lore that needs filled in, but nothing of what we have outlined so far speaks of chaos, or disorder.

[Tango]

The problem I see with your Chaos biome idea is that it doesn't blend with what we already have. It doesn't fit the dragons we have now or the overall tone of our natural world. Basically, what I see from the mana system is a system of balance, of natural checks from one part to another. I know there is more lore that needs filled in, but nothing of what we have outlined so far speaks of chaos, or disorder.

I agree in a way, but I still find it a better biome to add than grassland or freshwater. Really I only think a floating island biome is needed.

[PewterEyes]

Well, if it comes to "most important new biomes", I'd vote for grasslands. There's just so much potential, plus they don't really appear to be included in any other biome, even though they are by lore. Everything else is secondary to grasslands, if you ask me.

 

Tied for 2nd place are a freshwater biome (rivers, lakes, swamps) and probably a cold weather biome.

I'm with you, the grasslands should be the first biome to add. Followed by, IMO, freshwater. That would bring the total to eight, doesn't sound like a big number, considering how many breeds we have. Does anybody know how many there were when the biomes were introduced and how many there are now?

I agree also with Fiona BlueFire, the Chaos biome does not seem to fit the world we have now.

[Tango]

I'm failing to see why people think a grassland or freshwater biome are more important than a sky biome, not to cause arguements I just feel like I'm missing something. We have many dragons based on the sky, they are dragons, and along with sky comes space and we have several dragons based on space and loads more on the completed list. Grassland I can somewhat understand, but why freshwater? Is the coast over populated with water based dragons?

[PewterEyes]

When I hear coast, I say ocean... Not all water types.. (OK, maybe mangrove forests and estuaries, but not freshwater lakes.) Even the art to me looks very "salty"...

Same here. When I read "Coast" anywhere, I think of an ocean or a sea. Actually the simple definition of coast, according to Merriam-Webster's , is "the land along or near a sea or ocean."

[Fiona]

I no longer have all the charts and graphs I made when biomes were first introduced that I used to help with balancing. However, if memory serves (and my memory is shaky at best) it was in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 breeds. I don't recall for sure but I think there were around 6 to 8 breeds per biome?

 

The way to be sure would be to look up when biomes were introduced and subtract any breeds released since then.

[NotBambi]

I no longer have all the charts and graphs I made when biomes were first introduced that I used to help with balancing. However, if memory serves (and my memory is shaky at best) it was in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 breeds. I don't recall for sure but I think there were around 6 to 8 breeds per biome?

 

The way to be sure would be to look up when biomes were introduced and subtract any breeds released since then.

I do not know the exact numbers but I decided to re-open this can of worms based on the following olympe's (not quoting it correctly because the topic where she posted was closed) post:

If I didn't count wrong, we currently have 111 breeds in the cave. Let's round it to 110. (Counting color morphs for coppers, dorsals and the like, as well as day/night glories and sunrise/sunset eggs as one breed each.) Additionally, we have 11 or 12 dragon breeds that are available, but not in the cave (hybrids, geodes, avatars, GoN, vamps, NDs), 2 prizes (not counting color morphs), plus holidays. (I also counted seasonals as one, because there's only ever one kind of seasonal available in the cave anyway.)

If we add the 6 breeds released or re-released, we have now around 116 breeds in the cave. That means around 19 breeds per biome. Obviously, this is rounding, there are quite more breeds in some biomes than in others. Even if three biomes were added today, without counting the breeds that will be released in the next future, we would have around 13 breeds per biome. If two were added, we would have (still rounding) 15.

ETA: I'll spend time in the wiki to get more accurate numbers.

Edited May 31, 2016 by NotBambi

[Pokemonfan13]

how is it reasonable to 'argue that the coast biome includes all water, not just the ocean'.... When I hear coast, I say ocean... Not all water types.. (OK, maybe mangrove forests and estuaries, but not freshwater lakes.) Even the art to me looks very "salty"...

I agree that the coast name isn't best for that, and I do support a freshwater biome. I was just saying that IF we're limited to just one or two biomes, there are other habitats that exist less well than freshwater in the current setup and so should have priority. I would hope that if TJ is willing to add new biomes at all, he would be willing to add enough to have proper variety.

[Fiona]

I would much rather the existing biomes stay as they are. I'd just like to add a couple.

 

Plus, we just got amazing new art for the existing biomes. I can't see re-organizing and eliminating any of the ones we have now so soon after getting that wonderful art.

[silver_tiger]

Yeah, I don't want to lose this wonderful art. Plus, if we got rid of Jungle there would definitely be some shuffling around of a lot of eggs, to put dragons that definitely belong in a forest/jungle in the Forest--which I thought we were trying to avoid.

 

I really think that the upshot is that we need new biomes because we have so many more dragons than we did five years ago, and we're bound to get eight or more each year from here on out, unless something significantly changes. That way we'd have more room for new dragons, and I wouldn't even say we'd have to move the ones we already have.

[Nerei]

I'm failing to see why people think a grassland or freshwater biome are more important than a sky biome, not to cause arguements I just feel like I'm missing something. We have many dragons based on the sky, they are dragons, and along with sky comes space and we have several dragons based on space and loads more on the completed list. Grassland I can somewhat understand, but why freshwater? Is the coast over populated with water based dragons?

I think because grassland and freshwater would count as actual locations, as opposed to the sky which is everywhere. A flying dragon can be found in say, the forest, but obviously we still expect it would be found in the sky flying over all the trees. It just doesn't make sense that there would need to be a biome that restricts flying dragons to just one area of the sky when they could otherwise be found anywhere.

[TCA]

I think because grassland and freshwater would count as actual locations, as opposed to the sky which is everywhere. A flying dragon can be found in say, the forest, but obviously we still expect it would be found in the sky flying over all the trees. It just doesn't make sense that there would need to be a biome that restricts flying dragons to just one area of the sky when they could otherwise be found anywhere.

Also because aside from Balloon dragons, eggs don't float and sky dragons generally would land to lay their eggs. And they'd land in... guess what... one of the existing biomes. Or a grassland, tundra, or freshwater habitat.